Not enough Hercs to train Paras?

[brakedwell]

In today's Telegraph.
The number of Paras winning their wings is in free fall
By Thomas Harding
(Filed: 13/03/2006)
The number of paratroopers able to parachute has fallen dramatically since the invasion of Iraq because the air transport arm of the RAF has been unable to provide enough aircraft.
Figures obtained by The Daily Telegraph under the Freedom of Information Act show that the number to have successfully completed the parachute course at Brize Norton has plummeted from 92 per cent in 2003 to just under a quarter last year.
Hundreds of soldiers, who have to complete the arduous P Company selection before going to parachute school, have returned to their units without their coveted wings.
The figures are even worse for Territorial Army paratroopers with only one person - a medical student who reported sick and was granted extra time off - getting through last year. In 2003, 93 per cent of TA paratroopers passed.
The RAF has been blamed for lacking flexibility in providing aircraft, but Air Force chiefs say their fleet of 50 C130 Hercules has a priority to deliver supplies to troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.
To qualify, a trainee paratrooper must complete six drops at the Parachute Training School followed by two drops with his unit before being able to sew the famous wings on the Para smock.
As a trainee, a soldier is not able to continue in the Parachute Regiment if he refuses to jump, and no one can remain in the Paras for an extended period without getting their wings.
Col Simon Barry, a former commanding officer in the Parachute Regiment, said many RAF parachute instructor officers had been "less than flexible and committed to providing the training that Airborne Forces require".
"It is time to review the whole system completely and put it somewhere that can be relied upon to deliver."
He suggested hiring other aircraft to dispatch parachutists rather than "the overworked Hercules". He said: "It is just amazing that we cannot put all this together and make it work."
A serving Para officer said new troops arriving at battalions without wings were being "treated like second class citizens".
He added: "If you turn up with wings and the red beret, however 'green' they might think you are, there is nothing anyone can say about you not being a Para."
Major Gen Julian Thompson, a Royal Marine who commanded a brigade of paratroopers in the Falklands war, said the figures were "indicative of the overstretch" in the military.
"It indicates that aircraft availability is at rock bottom, which makes you ask yourself what else is at risk."
A TA soldier who has tried on three occasions to complete the course said people would be put off from making the substantial effort to get through P Company if they had to "wait in the queue for years to get their wings".
A spokesman for the Army Training and Recruiting Agency, which provided the figures, said the low pass rate was due to "lack of aircraft availability, inability to jump due to adverse weather conditions and disruption stemming from Operation Telic [the Iraq invasion]".
He admitted that the Forces were "juggling with scarce resources".
An RAF spokesman said 30 Hercules were available every day but operations and humanitarian efforts took precedence over training.
He added: "We don't believe that people not getting through their parachuting course will have an impact on operational capabilities."

[Kitbag]

In today's Telegraph.
The number of Paras winning their wings is in free fall
By Thomas Harding
(Filed: 13/03/2006)

An RAF spokesman said 30 Hercules were available every day but operations and humanitarian efforts took precedence over training.
He added: "We don't believe that people not getting through their parachuting course will have an impact on operational capabilities."

What tosh. What will have an impact then? Lack of replacement troopers so the guys in theatre don't get a roulement? Not to worry I suppose if they die an early death through overstretch there won't be so much to pay on their pensions!
Just reread the article, of course the spokesman means that there is no need for paratroops, an anachronism that hasn't been officially used since Suez? Perhaps we could also get rid of some other capabilities like an AT fleet able to support the governments aspirations. Am I the only one to look at the symptoms and see the disease?:{

[airborne_artist]

To qualify, a trainee paratrooper must complete six drops at the Parachute Training School followed by two drops with his unit before being able to sew the famous wings

Time was when all eight jumps were at PTS, with presentation of wings at Brize on completion.

I understand that there have been numerous conversations about privatising PTS, or parts of it. Is this article part of the warm-up for privatisation?

As an aside I could never understand why, at the time I went though, regs spent 4 weeks at PTS and TA/RMR only two weeks. Suggestion to PTS - reduce all courses to 2 weeks :E

[propulike]

We all know we haven't got enough AT, and that the AT we do have doesn't all have all the kit.

So if there is too much tasking for the available assets it's a question of priority as to which tasks are completed.

Which is more important - op flying in active theatres resupplying the boys and girls, or qualifying a bloke in a discipline he'll never use in anger so he doesn't get bantered in the barrack block?

No question that ideally we'd do it all. Not with this level of tasking though.

[flipster]

Propulike is right - there's not enough ac (and soon crews - probably) to do all the jobs that the AT fleet are supposed to cover.

Don't blame the bus drivers - look at head office!

Solutions - bin the para role? - Not likely as the Paras are often seen as a recruiting ground for Hereford. Now, the boys in black are also stretched, so the best Paras get to do some 'second tier' dark stuff.

More AT and crews? - yeah right! Mr Brown says we can't afford it!

No more 'Persian Excursions' and stop the ones we're doing? - Nope, not while TB is so far from trying to get himself extricated from Dubya's back passage.

The only way is to carry on spreading thinly our few remaining assets, in so doing we will lower the skill levels to unacceptable amounts if ever we had to do it for real.

BTW 'Operation Certain Death' was not very far away from becoming a reality in 2003 - luckily, we were spared the loss of countless Paras and Herc crews - only because we did haven't have enough ac available - thank the Lord!
:\

[16 blades]

An RAF spokesman said 30 Hercules were available every day
Where DO they get this utter b0ll0cks from? Halve that number and you might be getting close....

16B

[MightyGem]

We don't believe that people not getting through their parachuting course will have an impact on operational capabilities."

What tosh. What will have an impact then? Lack of replacement troopers so the guys in theatre don't get a roulement
And when was the last time the Para's jumped in anger? Plus, they don't have to be jump qualified to go to Iraq, or wherever.

Still a pretty bad state of affairs though. :(

[FrogPrince]

I thought that a civilian company contracted out Skyvans to the MoD for some Para work ? Does it really have to be from a Herc to 'count' ? ( Double brownie points if it's from a K ?? )

Air Atlantique has some old Daks still in working order too.

[airborne_artist]

Does it really have to be from a Herc to 'count' ?

My last three jumps were from a Chinook at Everleigh. Did the three in less time that it'd have taken to do one from an Albert as there wasn't a 2 hour journey to Lyneham to emplane.

[southside]

Where DO they get this utter b0ll0cks from? Halve that number and you might be getting close....
16B


The RAF website states that there are 66 C130 in the RAF.. I agree that most of those wont be in the active fleet but there must be at least half of them.

[brakedwell]

It's a shame three or four old Argosies couldn't be resurrected for PTS use. They were very popular with the Bahrain based Paras when we used to drop them on Dubai's Jebel Ali in the mid sixties. Even back then I used to think running in at 120 knots on a steady heading 1200 ft above the ground was asking to be shot down.

[Nibbled2DeathByDucks]

The RAF website states that there are 66 C130 in the RAF.. I agree that most of those wont be in the active fleet but there must be at least half of them.

The website actually states that 66 C130s were originally ordered. If you read further, it also states that there has been a one-for-one exchange of half of the C130K for 25 C130J - that makes 50 frames.

Trust the guys who know - when they say that less than half are available each day (which includes those on ops), there are barely enough airframes to cover the routine tasking and aircrew training. :sad:

[BEagle]

This was expected to happen when MoD failed to renew the contract for the jumping beans training aircraft last year.

I understand that the MoD considered that it wouldn't need the Shed contract any longer as it had enough Hercs of its own to take on the additional task....

"Baayyy - I hear what you say. Blue sky thinking outside the box....mumble, mumble, mine's a large one, old boy"

Re-arrange the following well-known phrase or saying:

Arse, elbows, don't, yet, up, beancounters, know, from, MoD, who, sodding, their, from, again, screwed, have!

[teeteringhead]

Impressive Herc performance from the Telegraph too........ a body of men can be embarked at Brize Norton and dropped immediately into action in Afghanistan several hours later.:ok:
...very impressive ;)

[ratty1]

The RAF website states that there are 66 C130 in the RAF.. I agree that most of those wont be in the active fleet but there must be at least half of them.

Another thing southside is poking his nose into, when he knows nothing about the subject in hand...................

[16 blades]

I agree that most of those wont be in the active fleet but there must be at least half of them.

And you have come to this conclusion HOW, southtw@t, given that you have no knowledge whatsoever about how our fleet operates?

Out of the total fleet, a proportion will always be at Marshalls for long term servicing or refits, some will be on shorter-term servicing at Lyneham, and some will be on rects, unserviceable post-task. This can make over 50% of your fleet unavailable for tasking. The remainder have to be divided between Ops, routes, TacAT training and exercises and essential Aircrew training (without qualified and current crew to fly the thing, a serviceable airframe is of no use - something which may have escaped your attention, southc*nt - hence why essential Aircrew Training has the highest priority of all, except Ops).

What you have left over is not very much at all. Hence the claim of "30 Hercs per day" is BOLLOCKS.

16B

[ratty1]

And you have come to this conclusion HOW, southtw@t, given that you have no knowledge whatsoever about how our fleet operates?

Out of the total fleet, a proportion will always be at Marshalls for long term servicing or refits, some will be on shorter-term servicing at Lyneham, and some will be on rects, unserviceable post-task. This can make over 50% of your fleet unavailable for tasking.



16B

You forgot to mention the K's that are being scrapped.........:E:E

[hobie]

I wonder, technically, if you can do drops from a AN-124? ..... :confused:

Plenty of them around for short term hire and imagine popping a thousand guys at a time out the back! .... :p
you could soon clear the backlog ....

ps. I must add that having members of the parachute regiment who can't train to jump because of a shortage of a/c is simply :mad:

http://www.antonovairlines.co.uk/images/gallery/an124_09.jpg

[16 blades]

I wonder, technically, if you can do drops from a AN-124?
Depends on whether you can open the back end in flight - given that it's not a Tac aircraft, I doubt it.

16B

[insty66]

Don't forget under the new double speak that is in vogue. Available does not mean serviceable!:{ :ok:

[SlipperySlappery]

Guess the Army needs to decide what's important - winning the war(s) in Iraq and Afghanistan or training for a role that might be discribed as 'discretionary' given the political appetite for risk necessary to authorise an operational airborne assault.

On the other hand, people like Simon Barry could stop whinging about an RAF AT fleet that is being worked into the ground and take a look at the state of the Army's currency for high-intensity warfighting - not enough paras is very much like not enough armoured infantry units etc. Perhaps he should ring GOC MND(SE) and ask whether he wants C130s supporting PTS or working in Basrah........think I can guess the answer.

SS

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

D'Oh Ratty;

Should have saved that one for the J v K thread!!!:}

More Later;
'J' Bloke..:cool:

[Grimweasel]

Lets get some anchor cables rigged up in those new C17's and get 'em down in the weeds for the other task that they were designed for!!

With the 'Malvinas' still on the radar and a well placed barrage of bombs (unlike the Vulcan Debacle:E ) on MPA runway, Airborne troops maybe the quickest way of deploying the Reg back to their famous battles home!?

[Impiger]

Lets face it the Paras are a tough elite force - but not because they jump out of aircraft before starting a decent punch-up. No, its their ethos, training and esprit de corps that makes them the tough, nasty b'stards that strike the fear of you know who into the hearts of their enemies. Using 21 Hercs to deliver a company sized force just ain't worth it and when Simon Barry worked on the Airborne Task Force concept in DAO he knew then that the days of parachute insertion were drawing to a close. So lets not pretend we're losing anything worth keeping here. Yes we need elite forces - yes we've got them. No we don't need to use precious C130 hours on dropping them onto DZs just to show it can be done.

Just because we can - doesn't mean we have to!

[hobie]

Lets face it the Paras are a tough elite force - but not because they jump out of aircraft

so let's call them something entirely different and then we all stop worrying about the fact that so many 'Paras' can't train to parachute because we dont have enough a/c for them to jump out of ! .... :p

[airborne_artist]

The French used a small para-inserted force with great surprise effect when they needed to carry out an immediate withdrawal of French civilians from an African state that was descending into anarchy - it was about ten years ago, but I can't give an immediate reference - has anyone got more info on it?

[airborne_artist]

What happened to the use of captive balloons at PTS? There's a letter in the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?menuId=1588&menuItemId=-1&view=DISPLAYCONTENT&grid=P8&targetRule=0#head9) today making the suggestion. My first jump at PTS was from a balloon at Hullavington, and TA units used to get a balloon date at least once a year to keep people in date.

[Gainesy]

I wonder, technically, if you can do drops from a AN-124?
Nope, I was told by Viktor Tolmachev (he designed it) that only a couple of the prototypes did air drops. Clam shell doors flutter if back is opened when airborne so would need beefing up and re-certifying.

Could always rent Volga's Il-76s though.

Or, call me radical, chuck the meat bombs out of a C-17? What? Not cleared?
Boscombe, mumble, paperwork, lease terms, drivel, etc.:rolleyes:

[BEagle]

Up until recently, after the balloons left Weston-on-the-Green, baby meatbombs hurled themselves out of a Short Skyvan ('Shed') operated by Hunting Aviation.

So much so, that the MoD started running out of hours left in the contract. "No matter", thought some Big Cheese, "We can use our abundant supply of Herks instead. Lots of them sitting around at Lyneham - I've seen them in pictures. So we won't renew the contract, we'll do it ourselves and save money. And get me promoted......"

Only one slight flaw with that plan...

....it was bolleaux. Because there are barely enough Herks to do what Bliar's Asian adventurism requires of them, let alone to spare for training baby meatbombs.

[FrogPrince]

Kolwezi was the event in Africa by 2 ieme REP. (incidentally, 1 ieme REP got disbanded after getting too closely involved with a Pieds Noirs coup attempt.)

Some TA mates of mine did a C-17 jump whilst on an OTX at Fort Bragg. Slightly higher exit speed but otherwise, no worries. ;)

[hobie]

Could always rent Volga's Il-76s though.


now that's a good idea ..... :)

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/il76/images/il-76_6.jpg

[SlipperySlappery]

Or, call me radical, chuck the meat bombs out of a C-17? What? Not cleared?
Boscombe, mumble, paperwork, lease terms, drivel, etc

Or, call me stupid and buy a high-value strategic transport asset and then misuse it by assigning it to PTS in order to make up for a lack of tactical transport assets.

SS

[16 blades]

C17s are even busier than us right now.

And you can't get any more troops out of a C17 onto a given DZ than Albert.

16B

[airborne_artist]

And you can't get any more troops out of a C17 onto a given DZ than Albert

The higher speed during the drop would make life harder on the DZ for the Paras by spreading the sticks out further, perhaps?

[16 blades]

I don't know if it'd make life harder for the meatbombs, but a higher drop speed would actually result in LESS troops being dispatched within the available PCOT. Using a C17 would really be a waste of an asset (even if we had enough of them, which we don't).

16B

[hobie]

How many C130's could you get for the price of a C-17 I wonder? .... :confused:

[FrogPrince]

Dunno, but the going rate for a re-furbished An-2 bi-plane (fits 10+ paras in the back) is c. GBP 50 K !!

[Kengineer-130]

Unfortunatly it all boils down to not enough manpower to fix them ( bean counters fault-Lean/cutbacks :mad: ) , not enough frames to fly ( bean counters fault-more work with less frames as it looks good on paper :mad: ) which leads to less time in the sky due to them being sat on the floor in bits ( bean counters-can't keep a decent spares stock or provide sufficient engineering support) as the frames are getting the arse flown off them and not getting fixed, and ADF's and LIM's build up leading to MORE AOG time when they finally get a maintainence oppertunity. Frames are turning up in theatres in absolute ****-states, due to the engineers not having time to sort them properly, leading to more non-flying time. All this leads to crews struggling to keep current, which leads to more aircraft being tasked for MCT, eating up hours on the few spare a/c, meaning tasks lower down the "food chain" suffer accordingly.

And don't let the political spin sway you, as 16 blades says there is a big big difference between "avalibility" and "servicable ready to fly".
the solution is easy- stop running the RAF like a (bankrupt) business, give us the manpower we need, give us the money we need, and the results will be plain to see. MAN US FOR THE TASK OR TASK US FOR THE MANNING.

[flipster]

K-Eng

Spot - on!

The ac (J/K/C17/JSF etc) are only as good as them that mend them. The fact that we don't have enough engineers in the right place, right now, is why a number of fleets are in such turmoil. Some 'top engineer with egg on his/her hat' should either:

a) hang
or
b) fall on their sword, and then hang!

[Green Flash]

Just a thought, probably irrelevant too, but what happened to all the Andovers? I know, I know, they went a while ago but are any still avbl anywhere?