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View Full Version : 135 mph on the A1 (Merged)


NickLappos
11th Mar 2006, 12:37
That failure mode happened to a series of Fords about 25 years ago. An engine mount failed and the engine rototed in its bay. This put in full throttle, jammed the shift linkage and killed the power steering! Many harrowing stories of wild rides were reported, some with horrible crashes. Few thought of your (obvious? mayble not to a paniv stricken person) solution!

g-mady
11th Mar 2006, 12:47
Suppose killing the ignition would have cut the power steering, he may have been able to just control it but it could have been much worse!

Driving towards a roundabout at 135mph and walking away sounds a bit strange!

MADY

daedalus
11th Mar 2006, 13:32
Seen the news item about a driver of a BMW whose accelerator "stuck" and hit 135mph on the A1?
Apparently his brakes burned out trying to stop the car.
What kind of pillock in such circumstances doesn't:
1) Slow down using the gears.
2) Put in the clutch, or if automatic, choose neutral, thus disconnecting engine from wheels.
3) Switch off the engine (although this would make it harder to brake by un-powering the brake servo).
How can anyone not knowing what to do manage to pass a driving test?
:eek:

perusal
11th Mar 2006, 13:39
Apparently it was an automatic and the gears had jammed. Strange coincidence though...

Still why not cut the engine?

jayteeto
11th Mar 2006, 13:41
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-13513174,00.html

He tried those things old chap!!

perusal
11th Mar 2006, 13:44
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-13513174,00.html

He tried those things old chap!!

What happened before power steering was introduced? (not that long ago)

Hummingfrog
11th Mar 2006, 13:48
A similar incident happened to me on the way to my RAF selection at Biggin Hill.

I was travelling down the M6 in my father's Triumph Dolomite Sprint at a speed slightly ;) faster than he drove. I took my foot off the accelerator to slow down for some services and nothing happened - car carried on at speed.

Fortunately, I was young and quick thinking then so after some heavy braking and very quick gear changes I managed to make the slip road for the services, switched off the ignition, and coasted into the garage area.

The cause of this was that the rubber gasket between the carb and manifold was slightly proud and allowed the butterfly valve to go over it and then not return. A little work with a sharp knife cured the problem.

It had not happened to my father, as he had never had the throttle open as far as me:ok:

HF

sixmilehighclub
11th Mar 2006, 13:51
It was a 1998 BMW 319 he was driving, the car speeded up and jammed at 135mph. He tried putting it in Neutral but it was jammed.

He daren't pull the keys because he was worried the power steering would fail, or the wheel lock kick in and the car would career out of control.

The brakes were his only option and he applied them hard which slowed him down to 70 mph for a while but eventually they burned out and his speed went up again.

He phoned the AA first thinking they could suggest something, then had to hang up and call the police. He called for an ambulance too as he was convinced he was going to die. They scrambled a heli and 4 cars but were still 4 miles behind him when he crashed into a roundabout at 115mph and was unscathed! Thankfully no-one else was involved. The whole journey lasted about 30 mins apparantly

He says he'll never drive again.

Not sure why the Daily Mail felt it necessary to mention he is on incapacity benefit after giving up his lorry driver job due to a spinal injury.

None of the above
11th Mar 2006, 13:51
Bet his indicators didn't work either.

Binoculars
11th Mar 2006, 13:55
While I'm not entirely sure of any adverse effects from turning off the ignition in a BMW a 130mph, it would certainly seem from the comfort of one's computer chair to be the correct choice. Certainly better than Put in the clutch, or if automatic, choose neutral, thus disconnecting engine from wheels. :8

Maybe I'm taken by the irony of someone named Daedalus calling someone a pillock!

Camp Freddie
11th Mar 2006, 13:56
BBC Radio 4 said that apparently he didnt turn the ignition off, because he thought that this would activate the steering lock

and then radio 4 said that on most cars if you just turn it back 1 stop that will not activate the steering lock on any car.

on my car and you have to turn the key all the way back (3 stops) and remove it before the steering lock works

regards

CF

airship
11th Mar 2006, 13:56
"It sounds like something happened to the throttle cable." a spokesman said. Yes, and please don't blame the electronics! :rolleyes:

I first became suspicious of engine management black boxes when the engine on a modern SOLAS lifeboat refused to start. There was no problem, or at least "it had self-righted". All it required was a "reset" which the engine manufacturer's agent was able to accomplish in under 30 minutes back in port... :(

Minty Fresh
11th Mar 2006, 13:57
Gets a quote in like "I'll never drive again"

Stand by Claims Direct, Accident Helpline or other (far too numerous) company for legal action against BMW with massive punitive damages - or am I being too cynical? :rolleyes:

acbus1
11th Mar 2006, 14:01
http://static.sky.com/images/pictures/1387572.jpg

Intelligent looking sort. :rolleyes:

Wait for a straight length of road.

Or wait for a stretch of road with no obstructions to hit.

Use the brakes as soon as you turn off the ignition. (and don't burn them out beforehand achieving absolutely nothing)

No power steering? Worry not, it'll still steer, though the steering lock will probably engage anyway (though some don't if the key is still in, in which case ignore "straight road" and "no obstructions"). No brake servo assistance.....well shock horror....it'll still have brakes!


In short, what a complete and utter pillock! :mad:

......or a liar.


I'll never drive again
He shouldn't be allowed to!

Krystal n chips
11th Mar 2006, 14:02
Not sure why the Daily Mail felt it necessary to mention he is on incapacity benefit after giving up his lorry driver job due to a spinal injury.

Probably to induce a "tsk tsk, what is the world coming to when a mere lorry driver--and--(by inference) no doubt a benefit scrounger of course" response in the "readership" concerning the fact he was driving a BMW.

Cynical ? -Moi ? :hmm: :rolleyes:

perusal
11th Mar 2006, 14:05
He says he'll never drive again.

Thank f***

As for calling the AA first, I think that even my cat would have made the correct choice.

sixmilehighclub
11th Mar 2006, 14:06
Minty, cynical?? Never! :rolleyes:

I'll be flamed for this :suspect: but he's claiming incapacity benefit as he can't do his driving job, yet has an accident driving a car (and some planned distance too - if he can drive that far, why can't he work even part-time?). Wouldn't be surprised if theres a claim goes in..... Not sure on what grounds though, mental suffering perhaps?? Aggrevated back pain..???
:}

airship
11th Mar 2006, 14:09
There have been so many instances of people finding their cars becoming uncontrollable, whether it's after going into cruise-control or whatever, there really ought to be a big bright red button on the dash that would allow you to switch off the fuel pump... :8

sixmilehighclub
11th Mar 2006, 14:10
uttering the words: "i aint surviving this" Yep , really intelligent. Was probably followed by... "I aint got no way of stopping my Beemer".
:}

there really ought to be a big bright red button on the dash that would allow you to switch off the fuel pump Well that works on the centre console of a jet, but that's following extensive training, and most people who drive cars can't even find their indicators....!

perusal
11th Mar 2006, 14:11
There have been so many instances of people finding their cars becoming uncontrollable, whether it's after going into cruise-control or whatever, there really ought to be a big bright red button on the dash that would allow you to switch off the fuel pump... :8

Commonly called the ignition

Crepello
11th Mar 2006, 14:14
Oh for :{ out loud...

One word: "Dare". No doubt he pocketed several hundred quid from his mates, and got his face in the media to boot.

For an accelerator to jam wide-open is... improbable, to say the least. To combine this with a jammed transmission is beyond the plausible. And I can't believe the brakes wouldn't slow him to a speed where he could kill the engine on a straight section. I hope we get to see the technical report.

Off with his head. Mind you, 135mph isn't bad for a 318... :\

acbus1
11th Mar 2006, 14:15
And I'll bet he never indicated once for the whole duration.

:mad: BMW drivers!

:}

Binoculars
11th Mar 2006, 14:19
My goodness, we are all very wise, aren't we?

I remember talking to a victim of a stuck throttle back in the 70's.
No, he wasn't on a motorway, he certainly wouldn't have had time to call cops, ambulances, helicopters etc even if mobile phones had been invented, and the whole incident involved closer to thirty seconds than thirty minutes, but it happened, and it was only under the affluence of incohol that he was prepared to tell me.

He was punting along a nice stretch of curvy back road near the Hawkesbury river (north of Sydney) when it happened. To this day he finds it hard to believe what he came to see were poor reactions, and he described vividly his thoughts about life and approaching mortality before it finally dawned on him to turn off the ignition. When he came to a halt, he got out of the car, walked to a tree and peed for what he reckoned was about two minutes while his whole body shook uncontrollably.

This guy was no mug driver, he used to be involved with me in organising car rallies etc, and he was extremely embarrassed to tell me what happened, but the lesson of what could happen under extreme pressure even to someone fairly skilled stuck with me. There but for the grace of whoever........

airship
11th Mar 2006, 14:27
Commonly called the ignition The "ignition" switch on a modern car is anything but simple (http://www.synomia.com/sitesearch/consult5/index.php?mid=4f704fb798651434460f33f5f580aa1f&l=en) ... It should be but it ain't anymore, there are so many other functions with an inter-locked relation thanks to little black boxes.

Und acbus1, Intelligent looking sort. Zis man lookz qvite Aryan alzo. Vere ver you in '42? ;)

Brizzo
11th Mar 2006, 14:27
I don't believe a word of it. Turn off ignition, and the thing will stop in well under a mile, brakes or no brakes.

soddim
11th Mar 2006, 14:39
Steering without engine driven power steering is just very heavy.

Buy a manual transmission and don't dip the clutch and the engine will continue to drive the power steering.

Either way it has to be better than 130mph mobile phone 'help' calls.

None of the above
11th Mar 2006, 14:45
A few years ago an HGV apparently suffered similar problems and the driver couldn't, despite his best endeavours, stop the thing.
That one 'smelt' a bit as well, and he was eventually prosecuted but found not guilty.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=/archive/1999/06/15/nlorr15.html

ShyTorque
11th Mar 2006, 14:54
Not far from our home base, it's in our local papers. It just doesn't ring true, especially as he claims to be a previous professional driver. Does he really expect us to believe that he hadn't dared to switch off the engine? Having seen the pictures of the small amount of damage done by this car when it hit signposts at a so-called "130mph", I think this certainly "warrants" further police investigation.

Is there possibly another explanation? Attention seeking, for example.... or did his right leg simply go to sleep? :hmm:

Send Clowns
11th Mar 2006, 15:17
Why could he not switch the ignition off then return the key to the position to remove the steering lock?

I have driven a car for weeks with broken powered steering - it was only obvious when manoeuvring at low speed. Anything above about 5mph was fine. I know someone who had his steering lock come on at 80 mph on the motorway. Even in a little Clio the person I knew was unhurt, so if the steering lock did come on he could have coped.

jb5000
11th Mar 2006, 15:44
I guess if he turned the ignition off and then back on again the engine would simply restart if the clutch was permanently engaged. Think of it as a 130mph bump start.

perusal
11th Mar 2006, 15:54
Not in an automatic

5150
11th Mar 2006, 16:06
I hope the Police nail him for breaking the speed limit...... :)

G-CPTN
11th Mar 2006, 16:11
In my opinion (!) there is absolutely NO danger in switching OFF the ignition, provided you don't remove the key. Of course I don't know what happens with keyless ignition cars (I believe some now only require the driver to have the device in his pocket for the system to be energised.) LONG ago, steering column locks were modified to prevent the steering locking UNTIL THE KEY WAS REMOVED. (I'm talking 30+ years.). Cars travelling at speed don't require power steering, it's only there to reduce the load at low speeds (such as parking). Even without footbrakes, the car could be slowed and stopped (though not from 130mph) using the 'secondary brake' (also known as the handbrake). By law all cars have to have sufficient 'residual performance' from the handbrake to retard the car (though not as efficiently as the fully-operational footbrake).
Prat!
Where was the problem? I'm also amazed that the Police couldn't advise him what to do. I'm also surprised that the BBC has reported it as 'beyond his control', though seeing the way the sensationalise aviation 'incidents' . . . .

Loose rivets
11th Mar 2006, 16:41
Yep, I would have expected him to know that IGN OFF, would not have put the steering lock in.

I'm also surprised that the brakes would not have overpowered the engine, at least before they became red hot. BM brakes are mind-boglingly powerful, or at least they were on the bigger models.

BTW, almost any automatic would be indistinguishable from a manual when it comes to reverse torque...that is assuming any significant speed. The hydraulic coupling is like steel while it's driving or slowing down.

The whole thing smells, but it's difficult to know what of!

acbus1
11th Mar 2006, 16:58
The whole thing smells, but it's difficult to know what of!Automatic transmission fluid?

I Am Not The One
11th Mar 2006, 17:01
The vehicle must have been maintained by AIRBUS.........Would never have happened if it was maintained by BOEING.
If it's Not Boeing, I'm Not Going!

The Otter's Pocket
11th Mar 2006, 17:12
Many automatics can be bumped started. It doesn't do the car much good.

I would suggest that he was so fat that he buckeled the subframe of the car which stretched the throttle cable and caused the engine to go straight to red!

He was a lucky chap. I live next to the A1 and very rarely get close to 30mph let alone 130.

My throttle once stuck open on my RD350. I shot off down the road hoping the piston would burn through. (Happens regularly). Ignition wouldn't kill so I jumped off at about 30mph. I did swatikas down the road like Basil Faulty on speed. I Finally stopped when the bike fell over and I tripped over it. The lasts words I said was..."FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK KKKKK!!!!!..............Owwee".:eek:

daedalus
11th Mar 2006, 17:41
Sorry "Binoculars", but I miss your point. What is the irony in someone using "Daedalus" as his PPrune name and a pillock?
Please enlighten me.
:confused:

Grainger
11th Mar 2006, 17:44
Daedalus was the sensible one wasn't he ?

It was Icarus who went too close to the Sun and got his wax melted...

"I tried to warn him . . . but he didn't listen" or words to that effect.

daedalus
11th Mar 2006, 17:48
Quite so, Grainger.:)

Send Clowns
11th Mar 2006, 18:03
Mmmmmmmm - wings of feathers held with wax? Not sure even Daedalus was the sharpest tool in the box!

Onan the Clumsy
11th Mar 2006, 18:14
He won't look very Aryan when the blonde rinse grows out :}

Forget neutral, slam it into Park :{

gas path
11th Mar 2006, 18:20
BMW 318..... 135mph! The police should lock him up.....for lying:rolleyes: :rolleyes::E

Onan the Clumsy
11th Mar 2006, 18:20
130mph bump start - Not in an automatic
I'm not sure actually. The reason an automatic cannot b e bumped started is because there is no way of transferring the wheel motioin through the torque converter to the engine. A clutch performs this task in a manual.

In this case though, the engine would already be turning, so if you give it fuel and spark...ok and air too, I see no reason why it wouldn't recomence its combustion activities.

Krystal n chips
11th Mar 2006, 18:27
OK, Whilst it all seems ( from the evidence presented so far that is ) both improbable and also irrational for a person to react to the alleged incident, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility now is it ?. Lets face it, the tragedy on the M62 a few years ago caused by the :mad: who spent hours surfing, then nodded off and crashed through a safety barrier at the same time as two trains were passing could not happen---could it ?.
So he's got a back injury and can't drive an HGV--fair enough--a car is much more comfortable than an HGV and you can park up and stop just about anywhere if you need to--unlike an HGV that is.
However, if it proves to be the case that your man is simply an attention seeking :mad: ( as proved to be the case with the last "hero" as mentioned previously ) then fine, crucify the :mad:.
Be interesting to see a jury made up of Pprune members----although not in a murder trial as the defendant of course :ooh: ;)

Barshifter
11th Mar 2006, 19:42
There was a similar instance a few years back where a bloke phoned the police to say his artic had developed the same fault as yer mans car.He was tracked down the M25 at high speed by a police helicopter and a fleet of squad cars.Eventually his rammed it up against the barriers to stop it.Upon investigation the artic was found to be ok.The driver was found to be suffering from an attention seeking disorder and was lifted by the police for his actions.

tart1
11th Mar 2006, 19:54
Daedalus was the father of Icarus, wasn't he??

Perhaps he wasn't strict enough and he let him out to go drinking with his friends every weekend when he hadn't finished his homework.

Sorry..... that's silly. I'll be getting a bit of earache soon but I won't be listening.....LA LA LA (fingers in ears)!! :cool: :cool:

ChrisVJ
11th Mar 2006, 20:05
And how many of you are guiding us around the skies now? I'm beginning to get worried.

The guy is a truck driver. Truck seats are mostly fantastic these days, but when he gets there he has to unload the damn thing. Maybe that's why he is off work.

The reason most automatics don't have retardation in top gear (or top two) is not the torque converter, which is indeed about as stiff as steel, it is the sprag clutches in the gears. Sprag clutches are designed to act like free wheels. ( I only know because those clever dicks at Rotax have put them in the starter system so in the unlikely event of you trying to start an already running aero engine you don't cew anything up. The problem is we're having a significant number of sprag clutch failures, so to solve a problem we did not have they have introduced a problem we have regularly.) My son recently rebuilt his auto box and I recognised the item in there.

Last time I had a throttle spring failure was in my MGB. It took me about 20 secs of sheer panic before I clicked and I was lucky, it was in a manual so I put it out of gear. Only then had to deal with the engine over revving. Of course, as every pilot knows, the key to dealing with such situations is training, so why does the driving tuition and test system not train and test for common failures? (Puncture, runaway engine, loss of steering or brake power, skid, icy road etc?)

Personally I would not want, unless trained, to turn off the ignition at 80 mph, it's fine second guessing while you have time to think it through but just how sure are you (were you?) that the steering does not lock on yourcar when you do so.

By the by, and not to insult you. I have heard the complaint that youaretreated as glorified truck drivers, you are not, truck drivers drive for up to twelve hours and then they have to go and unload all the luggage!

Astrodome
11th Mar 2006, 20:06
Switching OFF the ignition will disconnect the HT feed to the spark plugs, as well as disconnecting the fuel pump, and one also presumes the injectors!

Hence motor will stop.

Steering lock should only engage at the 'withdrawl' position.

Comments about losing control if the the power steering is switched off, suggest a considerable lack of understanding.

Any BMW drivers care to comment ?


Probably to induce a "tsk tsk, what is the world coming to when a mere lorry driver--and--(by inference) no doubt a benefit scrounger of course" response in the "readership" concerning the fact he was driving a BMW.
Rather an unneccessary comment, however I would suggest that not many people in good jobs can afford to swan around in BMWs, let alone someone who is on disability benefit ?

I note that BMW are sending their top men from Bavaria, so they are taking this pretty seriously.


ChrisVJ
but when he gets there he has to unload the damn thing.
In the UK they only unload if fitted with a HIAB. Unloading is the consignees problem not the driver's.

Gingerbread Man
11th Mar 2006, 20:09
The whole journey lasted about 30 mins apparantly
So he drove for 30 mins at 135mph on the A1??!!
Is there another A1 that i'm getting confused with? What did he do when he came across a roundabout, or, i don't know, let's say two lorries having a drag race?
If he was on a french motorway I could just about believe it (in fact he'd probably have been overtaken ;) ), but not in Blightly. I think this thread is getting a bit heated, so to cool it down i'll say this: What if he'd gone through a speed camera (sorry - safety camera) ?
Enjoy the meltdown everyone :rolleyes:
Ginger :}

P.S.
however I would suggest that not many people in good jobs can afford to swan around in BMWs, let alone someone who is on disability benefit

Why not? It is just a 1.8 saloon at the end of the day. I've seen plenty of people who aren't dripping with money driving fairly recent BMWs. It may just be a case of what they choose to spend their money on. Either that or... remember the average debt of each person in the UK? Not everyone uses real money to buy something.

perusal
11th Mar 2006, 20:32
All I'll say is that it's full of coincidences that make it seem rather unlikely that :

1) Throttle Jams
2) Transmission also Jams
3) He was calm and able to call the AA/Police/Ambulance accelerating to 135 mph whilst not in control
4) Not one of the above suggested he cut the ignition (not remove the key so as not to enable the steering lock)
5) He doesn't think of cutting the engine
6) 318 engine actually gets to 135mph on the A1
7) He's been interviewed by every newspaper I've read so far and the BBC/ITV/Sky News
8) He's thick as mutton

Maybe I'm being rather cynical but I would say something is afoot...

I might take back the bit about being thick having seen him...

amanoffewwords
11th Mar 2006, 21:06
9) He looks like a chav

slgrossman
11th Mar 2006, 22:46
This guy's driving home from work, still distracted by the days events and not watching his speed. All of a sudden he notices blue lights in his rear-view mirror, so he pulls over and the cop pulls in behind him. The cop opens with the typical sarcastic line, "Where's the fire, chief?," and asks for the driver's license and registration.

"I don't have a license," replies the driver, "it's been revoked. I don't know where the registration is because the car's stolen." The cop's eyes get wide and he orders the driver out of the car. "Hang on a minute," says the guy, "I need to put my gun back in the glove compartment so it doesn't get stolen if I have to leave the car here." The cop goes ballistic. "You've got a gun ... on the seat," he stammers incredulously. "Is it loaded?" "Of course," replies the driver, "wouldn't be much good without bullets." "Get out of the car, face down on the ground," cries the cop. As the patrolman is handcuffing the suspect the driver says, "I guess you're really going to be upset when you find the dead body in the trunk."

The cop, wanting to make sure all the i's are dotted and t's crossed to prevent this dangerous suspect from walking on a technicality calls for backup. After ten minutes his sergeant arrives and the patrolman immediately begins to tell his story.

After listening for a few minutes the sergeant turns to the driver. "Is it true sir, that your license has been revoked?" he asks. "Oh, no sir, I've got it right here in my wallet," replies the driver. "But he told me it was revoked," pleads the patrolman.

"And how about the stolen car?" asks the sergeant. "Oh, no sir, it's my car. Registration's in the glove compartment," says the driver. "Wait a minute," says the patrolman, "he told me it was stolen."

"Will I find a loaded gun in the glove box?" asks the sergeant. "Oh, no sir. I don't even own a gun," replies the driver. "But, he said he didn't want to have it stolen," cries the patrolman.

"And how about this dead body the officer claims is in the trunk?" asks the sergeant. "Oh, no sir. There's no dead body. Key's in the ignition. You're welcome to look." replies the driver. "That's not what he said before," complains the patrolman in disgust.

As the sergeant looks around at the now sheepish patrolman, the driver, still face down on the ground chimes in, "And I suppose the next thing this lying sonofabitch is gonna try to tell you is that I was speeding."

-Stan-

SirVivr
11th Mar 2006, 23:45
Has anyone checked SASless location during these times?

Just wondering.

Chas A

RatherBeFlying
11th Mar 2006, 23:58
Me I'd shut the ignition real quick. Of course in a car, most of us are automatons in that we immediately remove the key without conscious thought.

Where's the shutdown checklist:}

G-CPTN
12th Mar 2006, 00:21
What would you do if you found yourself stuck on full-power whilst flying?

Send Clowns
12th Mar 2006, 00:25
Shutdown that engine and land single-engine. If flying in a single then fly to a suitable point for a forced landing at a large airfield and cut the mixture. It is something I used to teach my students.

Blacksheep
12th Mar 2006, 00:37
Mrs B suffered a stuck open throttle in her Honda Accord. She's not the world's greatest driver - she refuses to drive a manual "because they're too complicated" - but she has masses of common sense. When she lifted her foot and the car kept going, she just slammed on the brakes then turned off the engine. Then she got out of the car, kicked it and stormed off in a huff to complain to "Happy Motors" (Really! That's the name of the Honda dealer over here) about their crappy car and to come and fix it quick.

But then she's not some skiving chav looking for another way to fiddle a bit of cash out of a major car manufacturer.

allan907
12th Mar 2006, 00:52
I think that, from Thirsk, the next roundabout or other obstruction is at the south end of the Doncaster by-pass where it turns off to Bawtry, Finningley etc and the A1(M) turns back into the plain old A1. If he could have got it up to 140 he might have been able to go right across that roundabout and have a better bingle further on!

Flingwing207
12th Mar 2006, 01:01
"I hit the brakes. They were braking ok, they were keeping me at about 70mph."
"So I phoned up the police after I called the AA and they said..."

Whaaat? The brakes will stop the car- all you have to do is push them hard. And he could call the AA and the police, but he couldn't turn the ignition key? He drives 60 miles and the best thing he can find to hit is a roundabout.

Methinks something is wrong here, either with this gent's story, or inside his head.

maxspeed
12th Mar 2006, 01:11
What a toss! 318 doing 135mph? Not likely, infact they WILL NOT do 135mph (already tried and that was with brakes off!):suspect:

SASless
12th Mar 2006, 01:16
SirVivr,

Have been living at the foot of the cross, Mate! Busy saying prayers for you in all yer hardship down there. Sailboats, good rum, Carib beer turn signals...nubile young beach girls. The old girls still cooking up a storm in the house there? Say Hi to the G-Man for me when you see him.

Loose rivets
12th Mar 2006, 04:54
I think he just plain forgot to press the stoppy thing. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/walnaze/peelout.gif

rotorspeed
12th Mar 2006, 06:12
Tend to agree with Flingwing here. Something not right about this story. Firstly I'm convinced the brakes, immediately applied hard enough, long enough, would have stopped the car. Especially a 318 - we're hardly talking serious power here! Secondly all it would have taken to stop would be to ease the gear lever to N from D and give the rev limiter a work-out until you stop. Oh, that apparently jammed too! On an automatic! All assuming of course that someone may indeed have been frightened of turning the key. Biggest give away was quote saying he could see smoke from the brakes as they faded. What, from the driver's seat? At 130 mph? No way! Any smoke would be well behind the car. Interesting too it happened on the A1, one of the few places where you might have any chance of doing 120 mph+ for 30 miles, rather than virtually any other town/rural road.

And this driver had - apparently - 30 miles and say 15 minutes to try and work out what to do to save his skin. Would have thought the skill level to not hit anything for that amount of time would be vastly greater than that required to get out of the situation earlier.

Apparently a helicopter was deployed to track this terror-ride. Anyone aware? And I wonder if the final impact was big enough to dislodge the jammed throttle? Be very interesting to hear what is found on fully investigating this car and incident.....

airborne_artist
12th Mar 2006, 06:38
9) He looks like a chav

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41428000/jpg/_41428612_driver203.jpg

I had a boss who insisted that a smart haircut and clean shoes were the secret of success in life.

No wonder then that this guy has to use dodgy tactics to get attention :E

the beater
12th Mar 2006, 06:51
Chav seeks attention.
Gets it.
It's a Midi adventure. (sorry!):D

His accelerator jams - oh dear.
His automatic gearbox also jams - not his lucky day.
His brakes have been inadvertently swopped with some off a scrap Trabant - dear oh dear.
And can you imagine how unlucky he is that his BMW just happens to be the fastest one ever? I mean, what are the chances of all that happening? If it happened to me for real I don't think that I'd feel like driving again. That's assuming that I was as lucky as him in surviving crashing into a roundabout at over 100mph - although with my luck, I'd survive all that and then die during the operation to re-insert my colon into my sphincter.
Seriously; what an @rse. (no pun intended)

'Turning the key back one notch to the accessory position will lock the steering' - No it won't.
'Stopping the engine will cause the power steering to fail' - yes, but how difficult is it to steer? I once drove a Mitsubishi Shogun for months with the power-steering belt removed due to a leak in the pump. It was still easier than any of my 'series' Landrovers.
'Stopping the engine will cause the power assistance to the brakes to fail' - No it won't. The brake servo is powered with a vacuum supplied by the engine intake system or by an engine driven vacuum pump. It takes a few pumps of the brake pedal to use all of the vacuum stored in the reservoir. Holding the brake down after the initial application will not use up any more of this stored vacuum. In any case the brakes will still function albeit needing more pedal pressure (may I respectfully suggest that his mass would not give him a problem in this respect). Believe it or not, it is possible to tow a broken down car.
The whole thing is more fishy than Billingsgate.:mad:

Gainesy
12th Mar 2006, 07:00
Allan,
correct that's the roundabout (Blyth) where he crashed..

Flying Lawyer
12th Mar 2006, 07:03
I'd guess there's a very good chance he's got an ear-ring as well, which would confirm he's a chav IMHO - but being a chav doesn't mean someone's a bad person.
What a snobbish lot some of you are. ;)


'Swanning around in a BMW'
Bottom of the range 1.8 model.
Do we know how old it is?
Maybe he bought it when he was working?
Do we know if he's long-term 'on the sick' or just at the moment because of a back injury?

135 mph out of a bog standard 1.8 saloon on the A1 seems rather impressive.
Maybe the downhill stretches helped a bit. :)

BlueWolf
12th Mar 2006, 07:18
Steering locks aren't hard to break, if it comes to that. A good wrench on the wheel will bust most of them. Coupled with switching the key off and hitting the brakes, he should have been OK.

Happened to me once in an old Datsun. Twin throat carbie, first choke opened up on the throttle cable, second on the inlet manifold vacuum, and held there by a counterweight. When the rebreather pipe from the rocker cover to the air cleaner housing came out of its clamp, and the counterweight got stuck behind it, I found myself on the motorway with the throttle jammed open. Scary, but not impossible to overcome if you keep a clear head.

And when you think of it, most steering locks don't click in until at least the second click back on the key anyway.

Flying Lawyer
12th Mar 2006, 07:48
A good wrench on the wheel will bust most of them.
I don't think the steering would have locked but, assuming it did - you'd advise a good wrench on the wheel while slowing down from 135 mph?
Some of the other solutions suggested might just have a slight edge on that one. ;)

acbus1
12th Mar 2006, 09:00
Spoilsport, FL!

Think of the number of rolls he'd have managed!

And a great way to slow down pronto!

:E

Whirlybird
12th Mar 2006, 09:25
Even if the steering did lock, or he thought it would, what about finding a dead straight stretch of road - not too difficult on the A1 - and then turning the ignition off. The car would keep going straight till it stopped, wouldn't it? Ought to be obvious to anyone, even if in a panic...though not too much of a panic to steer at high speed and make phone calls at the same time. Indeed, sounds most odd.:(

perusal
12th Mar 2006, 09:26
but being a chav doesn't mean someone's a bad person.

Yes it does :)

Just a thought, presumably the accelerator wasn't all the way down when it stuck (how often is YOUR foot right down on the A1) so it's even more impressive\unbelievable\ to reach 135mph whilst not at full throttle

Little Things :eek:

Simon853
12th Mar 2006, 09:55
The throttle stuck open a couple of years ago on my Ducati 748. As I approached a corner and rolled off the gas the revs didn't drop. Resisting the temptation to immediately soil my underwear I used the brakes to force the revs down, made it round the corner and then turned the ignition off and rolled into a garage forecourt. A can of WD40 slackened off the stuck butterfly and I made it home.

Si

Binoculars
12th Mar 2006, 11:41
Don't be ridiculous, basil. This lot don't make mistakes. Thank heavens Flying Lawyer is around to display a little humanity, or the smug superiority in this room would be utterly overwhelming. Perhaps we could have a theme song for JB; how about...

Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way....... :hmm:

sixmilehighclub
12th Mar 2006, 11:57
Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't survive making them all yourself!

I also heard an old similar proverb..
' learn from others mistakes, you don't live long enough to learn from your own'

sixmilehighclub
12th Mar 2006, 12:02
Female comment approaching....

Occasionally when I lift my foot off the throttle to change gear, the pedal stays partly depressed (not surprised it's depressed being stepped on all the time) and I get a power surge until I tap it.

Anyone care to explain??

(and no its not the high heel still attached to the pedal when I lever my foot..!)

Taildragger55
12th Mar 2006, 12:09
Once got the throttle stuck on a very underpowered go-kart that ran away at it's maximum speed of about thirty.
Simply pulling off the spark plug lead stopped it in seconds.
If you ever find yourself in such a situation, remember to lift the plug lead off by the INSULATEDpart:(

airship
12th Mar 2006, 12:27
According to the media reports, the BMW involved was an "R" registered 1998 BMW 3 series automatic. I did a search for accelerator problems involving the model but the best match I came up with was this one from the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. The full .pdf report (218.1kb) on recall 97V131000 can be downloaded here (http://199.79.180.163/prepos/files/Artemis/Public/Recalls/1997/V/RC-97V131-NN.PDF). (Do see page 6 of this report where BMW recommend not to switch off the engine...) ;)

Make / Models : Model/Build Years:
BMW / 318I 1992-1997
BMW / 318IC 1994-1997
BMW / 318IS 1992-1997
BMW / 318TI 1995-1997
BMW / 325I 1992-1995
BMW / 325IC 1994-1995
BMW / 325IS 1992-1995
BMW / 525I 1989-1995
BMW / 525IT 1992-1995
BMW / 530I 1994-1995
BMW / 530IT 1994-1995
BMW / 540I 1994-1995
BMW / 740I 1993-1997
BMW / 840CI 1994-1997
BMW / M3 1995-1997
BMW / Z3 1996-1997

Manufacturer : BAYERISCHE MOTOREN WERKE

NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number : 97V131000 Mfg's Report Date : AUG 14, 1997
Component: VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL
Potential Number Of Units Affected : 410000

Summary:

THE CRUISE CONTROL AND THROTTLE CABLES ARE ATTACHED TO THE SAME THROTTLE VALVE ACTUATING LEVER AT THE THROTTLE HOUSING. IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THE PLASTIC BUSHING ON EITHER CABLE COULD BREAK DUE TO ENVIRONMENTAL INFLUENCES COUPLED WITH VIBRATION. IF THE BUSHING BREAKS, THE OUTER CABLE HOUSING CAN SEPARATE FROM THE BUSHING. IN THIS CASE, DURING APPLICATION OF THE THROTTLE PEDAL WITHOUT CRUISE CONTROL BEING ENGAGED, THE OUTER TUBE COULD CATCH ON THE EDGE OF THE BROKEN BUSHING.

Consequence:
THIS COULD CAUSE THE THROTTLE VALVE TO REMAIN PARTIALLY OPEN. IT HIS WERE TO OCCUR, THE CAR MIGHT NOT DECELERATE AS EXPECTED INCREASING THE RISK OF A VEHICLE CRASH.

Remedy:

DEALERS WILL INSTALL A SPRING STEEL CLIP ON THE OUTER TUBE OF EACH CABLE IN THE AREA OF THE ADJUSTING SCREW AND PLASTIC BUSHING. THE CLIP IS DESIGNED TO PREVENT THE OUTER TUBE FROM DISLODGING FROM THE BUSHING.

Notes:

OWNER NOTIFICATION IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN BY THE END OF OCTOBER 1997. OWNERS WHO TAKE THEIR VEHICLES TO AN AUTHORIZED DEALER ON AN AGREED UPON SERVICE DATE AND DO NOT RECEIVE THE FREE REMEDY WITHIN A REASONABLE TIME SHOULD CONTACT BMW AT 1-800-831-1117. ALSO CONTACT THE NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION'S AUTO SAFETY HOTLINE AT 1-800-424-9393.

Blacksheep
12th Mar 2006, 12:30
Good report. Is there anything about the gears getting stuck in 'D' (drive) to go with it?

Thirsk? Now that rings a bell.

I was just off the A1 at Disforth and passing Thirsk on the A19 when I was busted for doing 115. There must be summat about Thirsk that affects throttle cables. My advice is to avoid the area altogether by travelling North up the West Coast and cutting across at Carlisle. Or vice versa if you're headed south.

NickLappos
12th Mar 2006, 12:31
Flingwing207 said that the brakes were strong enough to stop the car regardless.

Absolutely right. The energy absorbing capability of the brakes will overpower any engine (compare the acceleration distance for a given speed to the stop distance from that speed.) The problem is that most drivers would be reluctant to jam to brakes hard and hold them, regardless, until the car stopped. Similar to that thread we had a while back where some ppruners decided it was LTE if the pilot decided not to use full pedal to stop a turn!

With the brakes, it is a one shot deal, if you hold the pedal partially pressed, the heat damage to the brakes will quickly make them much less effective and perhaps ineffective with a stuck throttle.
Regarding the key lock, who cares? Kill the key, then ride it for a bit, then turn the key On a bit to straighten out the car, then do it again. The car might restart when the key is turned On, but it might not, and the acceleration will be dead while it is off.

G-CPTN
12th Mar 2006, 12:33
6MHC:-
I PRESUME that there isn't a carpet or mat, either on the flat part of the floor, or ABOVE the loud pedal. I HAVE had intermittent fouling of the pedal due to stiff folded carpet above the accelerator.

Krystal n chips
12th Mar 2006, 12:48
Female comment approaching....
Occasionally when I lift my foot off the throttle to change gear, the pedal stays partly depressed (not surprised it's depressed being stepped on all the time) and I get a power surge until I tap it.
Anyone care to explain??
(and no its not the high heel still attached to the pedal when I lever my foot..!)

Well I don't get depressed when I am being stepped on by six inch high heels--:p --however---to try and answer your query---the linkage from the pedal to the carb / EEC may well need a little lubrication or adjustment. Maybe you could have the same problem with the EEC that I did a few years ago--the car was a Ford btw---in that the EEC used to cause the engine revs to go ballistic--the car would pull away--or try to anyway--rapidly in 1st / 2nd gear--"blipping" the throttle sometimes worked--sometimes it didn't and I had to shut down and start up again. Ford--naturally--said "No fault found":yuk: so I took the car to an independent garage--who duly solved the problem for about £30. :ok: by injecting some form of lubricant which, er, cured the known problem !. Much depends on the car / age of course-it could simply be wear and tear on the linkage.

spekesoftly
12th Mar 2006, 13:04
Interesting to compare BMW's advice with that given by the IAM.


Stephen Mead, assistant chief examiner at the Institute of Advanced Motorists, says:

DO NOT


Put your foot underneath the accelerator pedal and try to lift it up. You could lose control of the vehicle
Brake. It will not help as the accelerator will still be jammed on
Pull key out of ignition — the steering will lock
Try to use handbrake. “The rear wheels are likely to lock and then it’s goodnight Vienna”DO


Shift the car into neutral
Turn the key one notch to kill the engine. You will lose power steering and power-assisted brakes but you will still be able to control the car

G-CPTN
12th Mar 2006, 13:11
Twice (both times when driving old bangers) I've had the footbrake pedal go straight to the floor - and stay there !
Once I was approaching the back of a stationary traffic queue at traffic lights (top of Cutenhoe Road, Luton). I was able to yank-on the handbrake hard enough to lock the rear wheels and steer into a 'controlled' slide, coming to rest JUST clear of the back of the last vehicle. I don't think the driver had any idea that he'd just escaped being rear-ended by a Bedford Dormobile!
The other occasion was approaching the Kelshall turn off the A505 Baldock-Royston road. I'd INTENDED to make the turning, but without the benefit of a footbrake, the old A30 just wasn't going to make it, however, with a firm tug of the handbrake I ALMOST made it cleanly - just a touch (well, OK, MORE than a touch) of grass-verge, and fortunately the ditch wasn't too deep, so I was able to use my momentum to extricate the old girl and continue my journey (once freed the brakes seemed OK, though I DID renew the master-cylinder seal (only one hydraulic circuit in those days).

airship
12th Mar 2006, 13:12
Institute of Advanced Motorists...

spekesoftly
12th Mar 2006, 13:37
I'm also interested to hear the opinions of others, but I wouldn't expect the vacuum servo, as fitted to the majority of car power-assisted brakes, to be instantly exhausted at engine switch-off. I would guess there would be enough residual for at least one (continuous) application of power-assisted braking? Pumping the brakes would obviously evacuate the servo very quickly, but even then, as others have already said, non-assisted braking would still be available.

But I'll readily agree that it's very easy to pontificate from the comfort of an armchair!!

GROUNDHOG
12th Mar 2006, 13:43
Of course he could have just thrown the anchor out see if that slowed him down a bit...

G-CPTN
12th Mar 2006, 13:46
I wouldn't expect the vacuum servo, as fitted to the majority of car power-assisted brakes, to be instantly exhausted at engine switch-off. I would guess there would be enough residual for at least one (continuous) application of power-assisted braking? Pumping the brakes would obviously evacuate the servo very quickly, but even then, as others have already said, non-assisted braking would still be available.


Quite . . .

acbus1
12th Mar 2006, 13:53
sixmilethingy

Automatic choke?

And, while I'm limbered up for typing, does your crutch drag?

:rolleyes:

GROUNDHOG
12th Mar 2006, 13:55
135mph and no way of stopping sounds like an automatic croke to me!

ShyTorque
12th Mar 2006, 15:05
I still say it's complete rubbish.

Of course, it is possible for the throttle to stick open.

However, someone as bright as this chap, who claims to have been a professional driver :rolleyes: must surely know that switching off the ignition does NOT lock the steering! I don't think construction and use regulations allow it. The key must be completely removed from the barrel for the steering lock to be engaged.

What's more, the key of a BMW automatic can only be removed after placing the gear selector through NEUTRAL and REVERSE into "PARK". By then the back axle would be separated from the car.

I just went out and tried driving along then turning off the ignition in my own car, a BMW 3 series automatic.... (on private property and not at 130 mph, before anyone tries to make an issue of it).

The engine died instantly and the car coasted to a stop, with noticeable transmission drag. The resulting increase in steering effort required was there but by no means unmanageable. The remaining vacuum in the brake servo allowed me to make a controlled stop, even though I pumped the brake pedal deliberately to see if I could exhaust it. After this happened, (about four pumps) the increase in pedal effort required was again noticeable but any driver would be quite capable of stopping the car - especially if full of adrenalin, as this driver surely must have been.

BTW, I passed the "scene of the resulting accident" this afternoon and saw the damage to the signposts for myself. I really don't think he was doing 130 mph when he hit the Blyth roundabout. Maybe the game was over by then and he didn't really want to die? :suspect:

P.S. Before some one tells me I might have ruined my catalytic convertor, I know about that one and took the very minor risk. Sometimes one has to do these things, in the name of science, tha' knows! ;)

spekesoftly
12th Mar 2006, 15:21
I just went out and tried it in my own car

Thanks ST, you saved me the trouble! (didn't fancy going out in the snow, anyways) :ok:

aerobat 1971
12th Mar 2006, 15:54
I had a very similar incident a few years ago, in an Alfa Romeo (don't start me on Alfas, I know how much they cost to run). I floored the gas to overtake something, backed off afterwards and carried on accelerating - throttle jammed wide open.

As I knew my car pretty well I knew that knocking the ignition off wouldn't lock the steering until the keys are removed, so killed the power and coasted to a stop. A large wedge of cash, and a replacement throttle body later and all was well again.

So, for the sceptics, it's a rare occurance but it does happen occasionally. Just don't panic and it's not really anything to worry about.

Cheers,

David

G-CPTN
12th Mar 2006, 16:13
'Old' cars (you remember, those with carburettors) COULD fail at full throttle (as aerobat discovered), but 'nowadays' most cars are 'fly-by-wire' with fuel rejection controlled electronically by computers. Of course it's possible for things to go wrong with the brain (!), but inhibitors usually induce a fail-safe 'get-you-home' setting if major faults occur. That leaves mechanical faults (of the sort highlighted by airship (and KNOWN to BMW). Was the subject vehicle modified with the extra clip? If not then there is a possibility that the situation is as defined in recall 97V131000.
The control systems (steering and braking) of all 'recent cars' (less than 25 years old) are required to be operable following any sort of (single) failure, and capable of providing residual performance.
AS S-T found, it's perfectly possible to control the vehicle and bring it safely to a halt. That's the Law!

Sir George Cayley
12th Mar 2006, 17:07
Wasn't there a lorry driver incident on the M1 near Lodnod a few years ago? Scary at the time but later read the driver had been charged with wasting Plods time.

Attention seeking can be a form of mental illness. Look at Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy........





or








Michael O'Leary.







Not that I'm suggesting the driver in this incident was a mad attention seeker or anything.





Sir George (LOOK AT ME!!!!) Cayley

PileUp Officer
12th Mar 2006, 17:20
Once in my lowly 1.2 my accelerator pedal was stuck fully to the floor by an errant matt. Oh, I was also approaching an automatic barrier at the time.
I panicked for about half a second before depressing the clutch (causing the revs to skyrocket) and then turned the ignition off but left the keys in.
I then rolled through the now raising barrier with perfect timing and sorted it out on the other side.
Doesn't take the brains of an archbishop.


I would be more worried about crashing at 135mph than my steering locking!

frostbite
12th Mar 2006, 17:32
Once in my lowly 1.2 my accelerator pedal was stuck fully to the floor by an errant matt.

Bet you didn't let Matt drive your car again!

PileUp Officer
12th Mar 2006, 17:36
Yeah, I still don't know what he was doing down there in the first place! :uhoh:

the coyote
12th Mar 2006, 23:03
Poltergeist maybe......:suspect:

RatherBeFlying
12th Mar 2006, 23:06
The Subaru manual coasts nicely with the ignition shut off one notch with little steering effort until turning into the driveway when muscle is called for.

So on a straight highway, no problem as long as you keep to the pavement. It might take muscle to keep out of a ditch next to a gravel shoulder; so, wait until 5mph or so before pulling to the side.

PO dust devil
12th Mar 2006, 23:13
AAAAHHHH WOOOOO coyote,
The only poltergeist is the one in your jocks.
DD

cl12pv2s
13th Mar 2006, 05:15
I wonder if he felt the antilock breaking mechanism setting in at 70mph?

A common problem is that people have never tried to 'lock their breaks' so don't know what it feels and sounds like when the system works as it should. So they come off the breaks thinking the sysemt is bust.

(If you haven't done it yourself, it would be worth it to try it.)

It does all sound a little fishy though!

It reminds me of a friend of mine and his diesel van. The van was using a lot of oil and so my friend thought he'd save time by putting loads of oil in (way more than reccomended). Well that same day in the middle of a busy street in the city he parked up to pop into a shop, turned off the ignition but the engine kept running. In fact it kept on reving up and up, blue smoke filling the street, traffic and pedestrians coming to a halt as visability was down to a matter of meters along the whole road; my mate just helpless cringing with embarrasment!

It transpired that the excess oil was actually igniting even though the ignition was off and there was no fuel. Something to remember!

:O

HeliEng
13th Mar 2006, 06:32
Simon853,

That'll teach you for buying a Ducati!!!! ;) ;) ;)

Loose rivets
13th Mar 2006, 06:41
Despite all temptation, I'll be sensible for a moment. But I must say that I feel a more than a little reticent to pontificate about driving...everyone has strong feelings about their vehicles and abilities in same. But, if it might do some good..............

Funnily enough, I'm probably one of the most lightly people on Earth, to be sympathetic to this guy's situation. One of two times that I nearly shouted Mayday in an aircraft, was on the ground at Amsterdam. My left brake had faded to the point of uselessness, and the wind was whether-cocking me round towards a steep embankment and masses of hi-speed cars. More power to keep straight, and the faster I was going, and the more the brake faded. Trying to slow down by cutting the other engine back resulted in a violent swing towards the road. There seemed to be no option but to gun it and take off on the taxiway. This all lasted for about two minutes, but it seemed like an hour. Suddenly the wind dropped.

Just like practicing an abandoned take-off, or some other airyplane type emergency, forethought is of vital importance.

These are my thoughts, other driving enthusiasts might like to put forward their thoughts on escaping from such tricky situations.

Automatic transmissions. Total brake failure.

I spend several minutes a day in a school pick-up area, with infants everywhere...they're not supposed to be, but they are. I'm often in a 300 hp automatic saloon which is perfectly well tempered, but is controlled by more electronics, springs and wires than you can shake a stick at.

There is only one way to ensure safety in the event of something going awry and that is to plan for it. In this environment, I leave my mit on the gear selector, with a clear idea of what I'm going to do if the brakes fail. At walking pace, it will go into park...it won't do it much good, but it will go in. Much above that and the Park will be inhibited because of the damage that it would do to the gearbox. The parking brake has to be the second line of attack because of the time that it would take to stand on the rather high pedal or reach for the lever.

So, I could probably stop reliably in this environment. But being totally sure that you know which way to shove that lever, is something that you can't work out after the child is two feet off your bumper.

Rolling a little faster, and reverse will probably still go in...followed quicky with the parking brake then neutral. But you will never, never do it in time if you are not primed to move that lever in the right direction.

Low cruising speeds. Depending on the type of car, pulling down into the intermediate drive position, will retard the car initially. It is quick and usually won't harm the g-box. While it is spinning the engine up, stand or pull on the parking brake.

Pumping the main brakes my give a few bursts of life as the remnants of hydraulic fluid get to the master cylinder. It will be very spongy however.


High speeds. You need some investment in practice and really quite a bit of luck. Total brake failure at speed is a serious problem by any standards. Using the gearbox, wether auto or manual can, and probably will, cause the driving wheels to skid or be right on the edge of doing so. That's not such a bad thing if the alternative is running into a mass of stationary cars...or worse.

I'm getting totally out of the non-enthusiast's range...the racing an rally drivers among us will have their own very specific ideas. But....in the event of total brake failure at high speed, I have had some success (in practice) by swinging the car left and right, really rocking it on its springs, to the point of screeching the tires...this consumes huge amounts of energy. Doing this, having dropped a cog, or with the park brake on will probably result in some very pretty patterns on the road, but better this than run into a load of people.

Back to the core of the topic.

Having had some time to think about this, I find it very hard to believe that there is any modern car that cannot stop with the brakes while on power. Maybe, if I had teased at the brakes for some miles, then tried to overpower the engine, they would have been red hot and knackered...I just don't know, but that's cos I would have made the decision to stop way before that.

Supposing the 318's breaks simply would not overpower the engine. Turning off the ignition will kill the power. In an automatic or manual transmission car, I would bet my last dollar that it WILL NOT affect the steering or brakes, until at the very latter part of the deceleration.

The engine will still be turning: the steering pump will still be spinning. The brakes will still have some vacuum supply even with the throttle wide open. If the 3 series has the strange hydraulic system that my 735 had, it will still have power brakes--until the engine stops, and then as mentioned above, it will still have a few pulses of full power braking from a reservoir.

The more I think about an experienced driver rumbling down the road phoning more than one emergency service.... well, the more I think that he has another agenda.

I'll try to get to grips with why BM drivers are not supposed to turn off the ignition. Maybe BM know quite well that their brakes are some of the best production car brakes around.

Tomorrow, if I have time, I'll put a 3 series through some braking tests with power on. Any surprises, I'll let you know.

LowNSlow
13th Mar 2006, 08:01
BMW 318 auto doing 135mph, yeah right. My 318iS manual won't come close to that!

Flip Flop Flyer
13th Mar 2006, 08:18
The question beckons, which A1?

The A1 I am utilsing, is located in Germany, which has places where 135 mph is perfectly legal.

Rushton
13th Mar 2006, 08:49
Only done a speed read on all the mails :E This situation may have been mentioned before and that is whenever i drive the ex's Renault there is no way of turning off engine whilst car is in motion. It has electronic key with push button start and will not switch off unless speed drops below 4mph. Also the electronic handbrake does not function over about 5mph. So the only way of stopping the bugger if it all goes BMW shape is to try and get it into neutral and let the engine blow or drive into rear of French onion seller on bike. Cunning these froggies.

slim_slag
13th Mar 2006, 08:49
Tried turning ignition off in a moving 3 series yesterday and engine stopped and wheel did not lock. A bigger problem with these computerised cars is getting the thing started when one of the myriad of sensors malfunctions. The missus had a 3 series 'crankshaft sensor' fail recently and shut down a perfectly good car, cost hundreds to "fix" and she was stuck miles from home, very unimpressed with BMW for that.

Billywizz
13th Mar 2006, 09:44
Just bought a Bmw318 and my manual says that if your revs go up into the red, the fuel supply is cut off from the engine to protect it . Like LowNSlow, I doubt very much that my car can do 135mph.
Years ago my Triumph spit had the throttle jam open at 70mph after the return spring snapped. Pulled over to the slip road, hit the clutch at the same time as I killed the ignition. No problem. Gave the Police officers in the slip road a good laugh.

Lon More
13th Mar 2006, 11:07
G-CPTN fuel rejection Is this some new sort of economy device??

Fg Off Max Stout
13th Mar 2006, 11:10
He phoned the AA first thinking they could suggest something, then had to hang up and call the police.

Thank you for your call. Your call is very important to us.

Greensleeves.

Your call is in a queue and will be answered by the first available attendant.

Copacabana on panpipes.

We are experiencing high demand at the moment. Your call will be answered within [different voice] 127 minutes.

Lily was here (elevator remix)

If you are a dodgy looking chav in a beamer claiming to face a near death experience (although more likely just trying to make an excuse to drive at 135mph without getting banned), please press 1 now.

If you would like to be transferred to the constabulary to arrange court dates, press 2 now.

If you do not understand the qustion, press 3 now.

etc etc

gruntie
13th Mar 2006, 11:16
Also the electronic handbrake does not function over about 5mph.
Don't know what has happened to the Construction & Use regs over the last few years, but I'm sure this would/should make the Renault illegal on British roads...........not only by being speed-inhibited but also as it's not mechanical.

lexxity
13th Mar 2006, 11:36
Now look, 5 pages of replies and no one has said, but surely his Israeli martial arts skills should have helped him stop the vehicle.:E

Sorry......I'll go away again now.

patdavies
13th Mar 2006, 11:39
P.S. Before some one tells me I might have ruined my catalytic convertor, I know about that one and took the very minor risk. Sometimes one has to do these things, in the name of science, tha' knows! ;)

Why would you have damaged your catalytic convertor?

Killing the ignition would mean that fuel in the cylinders would not be ignited, but would also kill the fuel pump and injectors; there wouldn't be any fuel in the cylinders.

patdavies
13th Mar 2006, 11:48
The engine will still be turning: the steering pump will still be spinning.


The engine will have stopped more or less instantly - turning off the ignition also kills the fuel pump and injectors

Rushton
13th Mar 2006, 12:01
Ah the wonders of electronic progress. Never had all these problems when we had decent cars. Bits of cable, linkages everywhere, proper keys, proper handbrakes, no power steering, no tree-hugger catalytic converters. Body work made out of decent metal that could withstand hitting solid objects without falling apart. Mind you the cars never went very fast, so you could always bail out if things went a bit odd.

Heli-Ice
13th Mar 2006, 12:17
What does the JAA have to say about this???

He definitely needs more hours under his belt! And not to forget take a few more tests :}

sycamore
13th Mar 2006, 12:46
Funny old thing, just last week on tv there was an American film about a runaway car, big drama,no brakes etc, had to lower a bridge etc,lots of police chasing it on a 6-lane highway...eventually goes off the side avoiding a road block..only saw the last 5 mins.....not as good as the runaway train one..coincidence or what ?
Anyway ,you can turn the ignition off on Beemers, and probably others,and the lock will only operate if the key is removed...steering and brakes get heavy, but adrenalin will help, even if it is brown...!!

SyllogismCheck
13th Mar 2006, 13:07
Setting aside his stupid concerns over turning the ignition off, that car only has around 140bhp. The brakes will easily overcome that. He obviously didn't press them very hard. :rolleyes:

G-CPTN
13th Mar 2006, 13:32
G-CPTN Is this some new sort of economy device??
In the early days of fitting racing engnes with the new-fangled device, it was the most likely cause of failure to 'go'. Therefore the term 'rejection' was coined as it seemed more appropriate than 'injection'.

G-CPTN
13th Mar 2006, 13:47
Setting aside his stupid concerns over turning the ignition off, that car only has around 140bhp. The brakes will easily overcome that. He obviously didn't press them very hard. :rolleyes:

He apparently chose to restrict his speed, rather than stop. Continued use at 75mph whilst the engine was still inputting power would inevitably fade-out the brake linings (well, OK, pads) friction characteristics and/or overheat the fluid to boiling point, thus inducing a vapour-lock into the brake calipers. Under these circumstances (continued abuse of the brakes) TOTAL failure of braking effort would result (believe me, I've done it in vehicle testing). You STILL have the 'emergency' brake (or handbrake) which will provide moderate retardation, though if you continue to drive whilst applying the handbrake, that too will fade to the extent of being useless. After that, you really ARE 'on your own'. This is a condition which typically affects heavily-laden goods-vehicles descending severe gradients when the driver misses a gear-change at speed, ending up in neutral. Thus those signs 'engage low gear now'. It also explains those 'runaway traps' of gravel or other material, designed to retard and stop any weight of vehicle. Doesn't work with F1 racing cars due to their light weight and large tyre footprint, so they use stacked tyres as ultimate crash-barriers.

ShyTorque
13th Mar 2006, 13:48
"The engine will have stopped more or less instantly - turning off the ignition also kills the fuel pump and injectors"

Pat Davies, you might well be correct about the fuel pump and injectors being de-energised. However, if we are going to be pedantic (I knew someone would be), with "D" selected, I found yesterday that my 3 series engine kept turning on the overrun. It didn't actually stop until the car was almost at a halt, which was a bonus as it provided some retardation.

(Nice to know my cat was safe, even when pushing the boundaries in the interest of science. I love cats, me.)

I can honestly say: "No animals were harmed in this experiment". :E

Lon More
13th Mar 2006, 16:17
G-CPTN, sorry didn't realise it was tongue in cheek.
I used to be involved in Bantam Racing (the old GPO telegraph messenger bikes) The bikes usually could be bought for about 10 quid and anything was allowed. Ours had water-cooling!! and an early fuel injection system made by Alf Francis ( He was Stirling Moss'mechanic I believe) The only problem was that the power band seemed to start at about 10 RPM below the maximum revs the engine would take. There was a bit of boiler plate welded on top of the tank to protect the family jewels

G-CPTN
13th Mar 2006, 16:37
Did an experiment with a Lambretta. Reversed the engine fan-cooling duct and connected it to the carburettor air-intake (force-fed air, see?). Had to richen the mixture to get it to go, but once running it responded abruptly to the twist-grip. More go, more air, more go, more air, more go, more air, more go :E
Quite exhilarating. Closing the twist-grip was, however a more leisurely affair, as the system required a considerable time to wind-down!

SyllogismCheck
13th Mar 2006, 17:24
Obvioulsy he'd cook the brakes doing that, G-CPTN. The question is why didn't he stop the car right away?

The bloke both looks like and apparently is a half-wit. Going to fast? Press the brakes. Pretty standard stuff really. Throttle stuck? Bring the car to a complete stop asap, again by pressing the brakes. Not so standard, but plainly obvious all the same.

What a dope. Two simple solutions available to him and what does he do? Picks up the phone. :=

ShyTorque
13th Mar 2006, 19:07
MikeJ,

A good test of a driver is when the clutch hub centre breaks out of the friction plate and you have 160 miles to go whilst towing a caravan. You can't disengage the clutch, the pedal goes right to the floor, just like a cable break, but more "crunchy".

Having delivered the trailer home, you then have to drive the car to the garage 8 miles away for a replacement clutch.

Once you've completed that you qualify for a free ride in an automatic :ok:

How? On the move, balance the throttle to find the "slack" spot in the transmission (which offloads the gearcluster and selectors) each time you need to change gear, smoothly select the next gear again and just drive. To stop, use neutral as you come to a very low road speed. To start off again from a halt, turn off the engine, select bottom gear and turn the engine on the starter. Once the car moves and the engine picks up, carry on as required.

And the steering lock doesn't engage.

Loose rivets
13th Mar 2006, 19:26
The engine will have stopped more or less instantly - turning off the ignition also kills the fuel pump and injectors

I can think of no reason that the reverse torque would not keep the engine going at the same mph/rpm ratio...with either an auto or maunual gearbox.

'one' has been under the hood of one's car for most of the AM, will still get down to the dealership today if time permits. (they are trying to sell me a six series, and they like me.:hmm: )

Edit. well, they say they do, but then they would wouldn't they?

Hoping
13th Mar 2006, 19:46
Lets face it. For the money BMW are pretty crap in terms of reliability and so on. Audi and VW are much better well made cars while BMTroubleYous are just for the fashion conscious.

Of course, no German, French or Italian (!) car can compare to a Honda.

My crappy 12 year old honda civic is STILL better equipped, more reliable, faster, with better handling than one of those nasty Peugeot 206s they keep pumping out. But the girls like them and they look cute, so they sell. Just like Fiat Puntos and 3 series BMTroubleYous...

G-CPTN
13th Mar 2006, 23:06
Anyway, the real point of the story - automatics are for wimps & those who can't pass the test with a clutch!! :E :p
Including the new James Bond!

Astrodome
13th Mar 2006, 23:11
Ah dear G-CPTN but the new "Bonds" are not a shadow on their predecessors, and will probably be suing the Studios in due course for some sort of "anxiety" or other phsychological affliction from being exposed to all that violence !

:E :E :E

Loose rivets
14th Mar 2006, 00:22
Lets face it. For the money BMW are pretty crap in terms of reliability and so on. Audi and VW are much better well made cars while BMTroubleYous are just for the fashion conscious.
Of course, no German, French or Italian (!) car can compare to a Honda.
My crappy 12 year old honda civic is STILL better equipped, more reliable, faster, with better handling than one of those nasty Peugeot 206s they keep pumping out. But the girls like them and they look cute, so they sell. Just like Fiat Puntos and 3 series BMTroubleYous...


I have to jump to the defense of BM, but am taking on board the fact that several people do not rate them anymore. Things change, certainly Mercedes are losing their reputation here, ‘ just another American car.' with more than a few problems.

There is no doubt that just being in one (BM ) can annoy some people. One evening, on a quiet housing estate north of Colchester, I hesitated at a small roundabout cos I was lost. This guy in a Vauxhall starts hooting and hooting...then follows me down the road still thumping his er, horn.
I stopped and he got out and walked to my door. He was so rude that I got out of the car. He was a foot shorter than me and had huge glasses...I mean huge glasses, perched on a ridiculously small nose. He shouted to his wife to take my number. I asked him if ‘hesitation' was a crime in Colchester but he just kept on with the rudeness. Almost all of it revolved about me owning a BMW. He chanted out a nemonic that he took two goes to get right, and then looked really pleased with himself. It was all quite funny, until he was rude to Mrs R, who just wanted the whole thing to be bought to a conclusion.

This is the offending car..after years of hard use..perhaps the second best car that I ever owned. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/walnaze/BMW7353.jpg Very old fashioned looking now, but I bought it for my company (bad mistake got a minus personal allowance of four and a half grand!!) when it was like new but had a huge amount off the new price.

It was so reliable that I bought it from my company for five hundred quid after about three years, and kept it for many years after that. It would sit in my garage in Essex while I was here, and start at a touch after three months.

It was also a serious bit of kit to drive, with a ZF five speed and lowered suspension. It came out of BM like that. The most annoying thing about it was the Buffalo hide seats. They made so much fecking noise that it spoilt the quietness of the car. I suppose someone should have shot the creatures before turning them into seats. I gather they were a two thousand quid upgrade, bad way to waste money.

I guess that if one is pleased with one particular car, it affects how you think about the make in general. I have to say that I don't like the interior of the new models, but the bum massager is a joy.:D

G-CPTN
14th Mar 2006, 00:26
Is the black bit on the boot for pushing?

dontpressthat
14th Mar 2006, 00:52
Interesting thread...
I used to have a motor with a similar probem as our little spikey haired chavvy chum.
Every time I got near a section of open motorway, usually in the early hours the throttle on my 4x4 saphire cossie would jam open leading to some starship enterprise stylee speed experiences.
It soon became apparent that the problem was with the manual throttle pusher lump atached to the end of the right stem of the operator.
A spin at about 80mph on the A414 seemed to remedy the fault and after replacing the operators trousers and re-mapping of the good idea function in operators stooopid brainbox I rarely suffered the same fault again.

Moral of the story... the fun will get you in the end no matter what your excuse might be!!!

Incidentally.. no damage done during spin except to pride!

DPT

G-CPTN
14th Mar 2006, 01:01
The BMW emblem is a propeller, as a tribute to its aviation roots. One therefore presumes that the driver's handbook contains a check-list to be executed in the event of an abnormality occurring during operation. Why didn't the chap consult this 'what to do in the circumstance of a stuck accelerator' check-list?

Flying Lawyer
14th Mar 2006, 12:40
I agree with Loose Rivets.

I've owned very few 'saloon' cars, but the BMW 323i I owned in 1980-81 was superb.

The BMW 635CSi coupe I owned in the mid or late 80s was one of the best cars I've ever owned and IMHO a beautiful design which is a classic.
Small production compared with other BMW models. Picture (not mine) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/635csi_2.jpg

G-CPTN
14th Mar 2006, 13:15
The BMW 635CSi coupe I owned in the mid or late 80s was one of the best cars I've ever owned and IMHO a beautiful design which is a classic.
Agreed. My boss in Germany had one. Used to tease him it was 'just' a cut-down 5 series. Subsequent 6 series wasn't QUITE as impressive I thought.

Doors to Automatic
14th Mar 2006, 14:30
Setting aside his stupid concerns over turning the ignition off, that car only has around 140bhp. The brakes will easily overcome that. He obviously didn't press them very hard. :rolleyes:

I would have applied the hand brake as well - after turning the ignition off. Lots of smoke and some useless brakes but at least I would get out in one piece.

SyllogismCheck
14th Mar 2006, 15:07
Pulling the handbrake at 135mph? You'd either want to do so very progressively or if, as our hapless chappy in the story would no doubt have done, yanking it on, hope it's pretty ineffective.

If it locked the rear wheels it'd be a spectacular handbrake turn followed by a huge accident that resulted. :uhoh:

Loose rivets
14th Mar 2006, 15:26
I agree with Loose Rivets.
I've owned very few 'saloon' cars, but the BMW 323i I owned in 1980-81 was superb.

The BMW 635CSi coupe I owned in the mid or late 80s was one of the best cars I've ever owned and IMHO a beautiful design which is a classic.
Small production compared with other BMW models. Picture (not mine) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/635csi_2.jpg

Yes, that is a true classic.

Mine was almost the exact 4 door version of that, but had no real long term appeal. I needed to put computer equipment in the back, so no choice.

It's strange that the six series was taken out of the loop for so long. The new one however, just does not have that special je ne sais quoi .

gruntie
14th Mar 2006, 15:48
It happened to one of our employees in similar circumstances, on the M4, a few years ago. A BMW 320i of similar vintage, the return spring broke on the throttle linkage so when she took her foot off the pedal it stayed where it was.
Putting her foot under the pedal to lift it didn't occur to her, so, being blonde, she phoned her husband. Fortunately traffic was light.....
Hubby being aware that driving was not her greatest talent told her simply to stand on the brakes until the car stopped before switching the ignition off (in case she pulled the key out and locked the steering)........apparently she drifted into Membury services with smoke pouring from all 4 wheels.....but did manage to stop.
But this guy...wasn't he a truck driver? ie, a professional? Thank God he wasn't in a 42 ton Scania!

Gingerbread Man
14th Mar 2006, 16:25
Whilst I doubt the truth of his story, I also can't understand why someone would do this just to drive fast/get a lot of money. If you wanted to drive fast, surely you'd stop before you crashed into a roundabout to high speed. And if you wanted money, the same applies, because it's no use to you if you're dead.

If he tries to sue BMW they should show him what would happen to someone who crashed at that speed in a Rover 100 or something :sad: .

(Of course a Rover 100 would probably need JATOs to get it up to the same sort of speed :hmm: )

Ginger :=

ShyTorque
14th Mar 2006, 20:00
Rightful justice for those lane-blockers!!! :}

[Notwithstanding the skilful way of getting home!!]

Sorry to disappoint the anti-BMW brigade (who, in my experience, have usually never driven one).

It was actually a Volvo, and it towed home at the legal limit, clutch or no clutch. ;)

Whirlygig
14th Mar 2006, 20:02
Rightful justice for those lane-blockers!!! :}
Shy darling, your anti-BMW paranoia is getting to you - I think the comment referred to the caravan?

Cheers

Whirls

...and I HAVE driven a BMW!

Romeo Charlie
14th Mar 2006, 20:46
MikeJ,

A good test of a driver is when the clutch hub centre breaks out of the friction plate and you have 160 miles to go whilst towing a caravan. You can't disengage the clutch, the pedal goes right to the floor, just like a cable break, but more "crunchy".

Having delivered the trailer home, you then have to drive the car to the garage 8 miles away for a replacement clutch.

Once you've completed that you qualify for a free ride in an automatic :ok:



Yep, done that but only in a Volvo F10 artic loaded up to 40tonnes. Clutch failed at the roundabout at the end of Parkway in Sheffield and I drove it through Sheffield and out to Ladybower Reservoir on the A57 where I backed off the main road into a yard to deliver the load before running back empty to Ashbourne and our fitters.
I pulled in the yard and jumped out saying that the clutch was b*ggered and the truck had permanent drive to be told that it couldn't be as I drove it in!

G-CPTN
14th Mar 2006, 21:06
Probably had a recessed flywheel. Bedford 466 and 500 Turbos were like that, and over-revving (usually due to mis-shifting, even without re-engaging the clutch) caused the driven-disk to overspeed and 'burst', with the displaced lining material jammed within the flywheel recess. No amount of depressing the clutch-pedal would release the clutch. It was, in fact, a permanent and solid coupling (though you did have the torsion springs to damp the (clutch-less) shifts. If you gearbox was synchromesh it was relatively easy once you got going to shift gears (having started in gear in first). Non-synchro (crash) gearboxes were slightly more difficult, depending on how clever you were already with crash boxes.
Like Romeo Charlie, I've also done it, though never above 32 tonnes, but we ran at maximum weight at all times. One could reproduce the failure by 'coasting' down a hill in gear with the clutch depressed after climbing in a low gear.

bjcc
14th Mar 2006, 21:44
G-CPTN

"Non-synchro (crash) gearboxes were slightly more difficult, depending on how clever you were already with crash boxes. "

The noble art of double declutching....Does anyone else do it, or know how these days???

It was taught to Police drivers when I did my course, and I still do it. Utterly pointless I guess, but does make a vauxhall gearbox almost smooth.

G-CPTN
14th Mar 2006, 21:54
The problem with a burst clutch is that depressing the pedal didn't release the drive, so double-declutching was futile.

The 'fun' is to learn how to change gear (on a normal vehicle) without using the clutch (and without knacking the gearbox).
And YES, it can be done!

Mudfoot
15th Mar 2006, 01:20
Back in the day, I drove cab-over I-H Transtar II's (275 hp Cummins w/ 10-spd Roadranger gearbox :ok: ) out of Raleigh, NC. Got to where the only time I "needed" the clutch was at a stop; once rolling, with experience one can "get the gears" every time. Never dropped a gear tooth, either. :cool:

Can't say the same about my old Camaro, tho' - lost the 1st/3rd synchro, man what a PAIN! No amount of dbl-clutch worked. :{ But I got better...

Cheers, y'all.

G-CPTN
15th Mar 2006, 07:41
Back in the day, I drove cab-over I-H Transtar II's (275 hp Cummins w/ 10-spd Roadranger gearbox :ok: ) out of Raleigh, NC. Got to where the only time I "needed" the clutch was at a stop; once rolling, with experience one can "get the gears" every time. Never dropped a gear tooth, either. :cool:
TOLD you it could be done with no problems. When you suggest to Joe Public that he can shift without the clutch the reaction is usually 'no way'. :ok:

slim_slag
15th Mar 2006, 08:07
But can you double-declutch when the throttle is stuck? One was also taught to drive by my old-man in his MGA to 'gas the gears'. (Bet you wouldn't let a learner near one of those nowadays) Cannot find that phrase on google, wasn't that what it was called when changing up? Double declutching was when changing down?

G-CPTN
15th Mar 2006, 08:26
Snippet in the paper yesterday about a driver in Australia, who reversed more than 25 miles on the Hume Highway (Sydney - Melbourne). He told the Police that reverse was the only gear working - & still had another 56 miles to go! A sneaky way to avoid the speed traps?? Oh yes, the car was unregistered too!!
THAT'S (ab)original!

Parapunter
19th Jun 2006, 12:55
Judging by the piccy, it would seem he may have got his Elizabeth Duke blingy choke chain caught on the accelerator.:rolleyes:

Gingerbread Man
19th Jun 2006, 14:06
So are we to assume he was lying then? Or is he being held for possession of an offensive haircut?

G-CPTN
19th Jun 2006, 15:09
Ani ful kno he was talking bollox.
But WHY? :confused: