Free Masons - Should they "come out"?

[Testingtheseatlimit]

This might be an old question but I really would love to know:

Why can't we all know who the Free Masons in the RAF are?

Of course, there is the perpetual myth that Free Masons look after one another... nudge nudge wink wink! I'm sure that cannot be true, especially concerning careers in establishments such as the RAF and mutual support in that arena. I'd imagine that they are just a society of generous individuals working for the greater good of all mankind.... a bit like say, the Rotary Club or the Round Table. If that is true, whats all the secrecy about. I for one would be a lot more comfortable if a list was published showing us that it is highly unlikely that Free Masons "run the show" and in any case, in todays society, don't we have the right to know? Come on chaps, its time to reveal yourselves, divulge what it is you actually do and take the credit that you are likely to deserve. Wear that badge with pride! Put the myth to the sword. I doubt whether the senior Grand Wizard (or whatever) of RAF officers reads this type of forum, but just in case, what should you do Sir? Any thoughts Pruners?

Testing testing 1 to 3.

[Testingtheseatlimit]

Oh no, am I the only non-Mason out here? Makes sense!! Or is there something I don't know, like, now I've spoken I'm a marked Testingtheseatlimit? Someone must have an opinion, especially a real Mason!! Come on chaps.

[Tigs2]

Testing TSL
I think you will find that people are reluctant to say if they are a Mason or not because of all the incorrect crap that has been written about Masonry in the past. Scottish Masonry is infact very open and non secretive and the lodge tends to be the center of many small communities in Scotland, and as you rightly point out is just a group of people who do an huge amount of work for the benifit of the local community and charities. English Masonry (of which the RAF lodge is a part) is still a little more secretive. However despite this let me dispell any myths. Masons do not eat babies or worship Satan, they do a great amount of work for charity for which they never seek recognition or thanks. In all my experience i have never sought special favour or been asked for special favour by any Mason, i would not dream of it. If indeed they do look after each other it would only be the same as you looking after a really good mate from your mess.

Heard a wonderful story though from an old boy quite a few years back. He was with a scout patrol from a Scots regiment during WW1. He and three others were captured by Jerry and basically they new their number was up (prisoners needed food and security - so it wasnt worth taking them), trying anything as a last ditch effort to save their skin, one of them let it be known that he was infact a mason (secret squirrel signals etc), as it happened so was Jerry and his mates. The captured four were given food and a map and directions to get them back behind safe lines. Now that was a real benifit of being a Mason then, i think the four like Blackadder wish they had just been sent to the local convent to sit the rest of the war out!

Hope you get more replies but not sure that you will.

[Pontius Navigator]

I know several masons and have visited some events in RAFShire. I know of several ex-RAF masons but none in the lodges that I have visited were regulars.

Not only that, but in keeping with other service organisations, they all seemed well on the wrong side of 55.

Maybe uniformed masons stay in their own lodges and do not join 'civilian' ones. I know a member of a lodge (name of ex-RAF unit but that is a coincidence) who only became a mason after he retired. I suspect his local lodge, that he could visit, not a stone's throw from Carterton, may well have more light blue. That might be why he is not a member of that lodge!

[Testingtheseatlimit]

If indeed they do look after each other it would only be the same as you looking after a really good mate from your mess.


Just about lets the cat out of the bag. I understand the Scottish Masons are more open and they obviously don't seem to suffer as a result. If a list of RAF Masons could be released then at least there would not need to be anymore doubt. I'm really not trying to suggest that Masons are anything other than good men, but the thought that they could be a secret society that has members scratching each others backs/feathering each others nests/getting each other promoted pre-occupies me. I'm sure mates networks work too, but how far do they really stretch.... to the Board? I dont think so. However, could it be that a Mason sees another Masons OJAR, grades above all the other non-masons, and hey presto mason mate progresses. I do not really believe this happens (at least I hope it does not), but, a simple list and awareness of who the Masons amongst us are would surely dispell this once and for all. I'm not alone in this thought by the way. Many chaps I speak to, in many different walks of life, have a similar thought process. There is no room for secret societies in this country anymore! Are we not all meant to be part of one team?

[Tigs2]

TSSL

The bit youve quoted me on has been taken a bit out of context. I am not aware that anyone has pushed people through on promotion etc because the parties concerned were both Masons. I just dont think it happens, there is no feathering of nests or back scratching.

[BEagle]

I'm not a freemason. Neither do I know how to give the 'tubelcain brotherly grip' or whatever that handshake thing is.

However, I accept that they do far more charitable work than most. If they choose to have a secret society, so what. Does it really matter?

[JessTheDog]

There are enough arcane rituals of bonding and examples of favouritism outwith the square-and-compass fraternity!

Hang on, isn't there a secret box on the 7500? Maybe that was the reason my career reached an early and inauspicious peak!

[L Peacock]

If there is something to hide then a secret society is required. If there is nothing to hide then an open society would suffice.

[John Eacott]

We're taught that we're a society with secrets, not a secret society. If a mason wants you to know, he will.

Otherwise it's just as much his right to privacy as it is yours to keep to yourself your religion, marital status, or choice of beer :)

[Impiger]

Sometime back in 1999 I had to do a bit of research into Masonry and the Armed Forces. Seem to recall that because of the fundamental secrecy about membership of the Freemasons that this was deemed incompatible with the Services and there is something in QRs and other regulations forbidding membership. Things may have changed and perhaps some helpful admin type could quote chapter and verse.....

[no step]

I seem to remember reading a book 'The Brootherhood', suggesting that the old cold war spies, kgb or whoever, would head straight for joining the masons as it was the place to be for intelligence gathering and other dodgy purposes.

[Widger]

Impinger,

I am not an adminer but, I do believe you are correct which, to answer the question, if probably why they do NOT come out.

[threepointonefour]

I think I've just realised what held me back all these years .... ....

The only lodge I've ever been in in recent times is the one half way between Mt Pleasant and Stanley!

[southside]

At last. A subject I know a little about. There is nothing secret about freemasonry. No hidden agenda, no sacrificial lambs, no vestal virgins and no politics. Freemasonry is simply concerned with showing tolerance and respect. Freemasons are charitable and work for the community.

If you are interested in joining why not pop down to your local lodge. You will be warmly received.


'HEAR SEE BE SILENT'

[Jackonicko]

I might have guessed you'd be one, Southy

[Ray Dahvectac]

At last. A subject I know a little about.

Suggesting that all your previous posts were on subjects about which you knew nothing? :hmm:

[diginagain]

As I'm sure southside will verify, since to use membership to further one's own agenda is against one of the prime tenets of Freemasonry, to do so would be so obvious to other members as to be self-defeating.

From what I've been able to learn about the Freemasons, and as much as it pains me to agree with him, their aims are entirely charitable, and their social activities are not that far removed from your average golf club.

But with unusual togs.

[boswell bear]

and their social activities are not that far removed from your average golf club.
But with unusual togs.

Rupert trousers, pringle sweaters and plus fours aren't unusual togs????

[Tigs2]

Nostep
The book the brotherhood was complete and utter s***e. It was written for the express purpose of selling books and it did. It is because of books like that , that Masons keep themselves to themselves because after reading such crap everone thinks that Masons are Baby Eating Bishops from Barton Wells.

As has been said it is not a secret society but a society with secrets some of which are of a historical nature. Some of it is fascinating stuff, as Southy said, go and join. You wont find a bad bone in the lodge.

[JessTheDog]

Is the beer cheaper than the Legion? ;)

[Bruiser Loose]

Rather than publish a list of serving members, why not give them an individual Squawk?

Cheap beer? Now you're talking; where do I sign?

:p

[BEagle]

That's 'Bath and Wells', actually, Tigs2.....

So mote it be...

[Onan the Clumsy]

If indeed they do look after each other it would only be the same as you looking after a really good mate from your mess.

I don't see it that way. If you had a mate, it would be because you spent time with him and knew him to be a decent bloke, if his behaviour started to change, so might the terms of your friendship. A 'bloke in the same club as wot you are' is very different and to like him and help him regardless of whether he is derserving or responsible is a very different thing.

Not of course that I'm saying that's what masons do, because I don't know. All I know is my dad was invited to join, declined and his career stopped advancing. Coincidence? maybe.

Southside Maybe you are like the fishermen on the KGB trawlers, provided as cover and oblivious of what goes on in the forward hold :E

(and all the fresh fish you can eat) :ok:

[Runaway Gun]

Next you'll be insisting that Ppruners 'come out'.

Much to the Senior Officers' delight :p

[Bruiser Loose]

Runaway, do you mean "come out," 'come out,' or 'come out,' 'come out?'

nudge, nudge, ;), ;), :oh: :ooh: :yuk:

[Tigs2]

Thanks BEags i new it was something like that, i need to rewatch that particular episode.

[Navaleye]

Free Masonary is rife in the police force and it would be naive to think that membership and promotion are un-connected. I have no reason to think that the armed forces would be any different.

[BEagle]

Tigs2 - Part 2 episode 4!

"....the Bishop of Bath and Wells, who drowns babies at their christening and eats them in the vestry afterwards."

[Jorge Newberry]

I speak from a position of ignorance so feel free to correct me but...

doesn´t joining the Masons involve swearing some kind of oath. And does there not therefore appear to exist at least a potential possible conflict between that oath and the one that one swears on joining the armed forces?

Note cautious phrasing....

[Navaleye]

Beags,

By the horns of Beelzebub, how did you get me into that position?

:eek:

[Anton Meyer]

The problem is, we do actually do quite a lot for charidy, but we cannot talk about it and it certainly doesn't get mentioned on our OJAR....

Oaths? ..they are unrelated but I do have a marital oath and 2 professional oaths that are all equally important to me, let alone those that I make in Open Lodge.

[Yellow Sun]

I am not a Mason and have politely declined a couple of inquiries as to whether I might be interested in "The Craft". Why?, because I view them as largely irrelevant. I doubt that they have ever had any significant influence within the RAF, although this may not have been the case in the RN.

Those of a historical bent may wish to read Andrew Gordon's "The Rules of the Game - Jutland and British Naval Command", isbn 0-7195-5542 6.

YS

[BEagle]

Just for you, Navaleye:

"Who could you have got to have performed such deeds, to have gone lower than man has ever gone, to have plunged the depths of degradation just in order to save your filthy life?!!!"

"Ah, Percy, may I introduce His Grace, the Bishop of Bath and Wells. Your Grace, Lord Percy Percy, Heir to the Duchy of Northumberland."

"Hello. It was lovely working with you....."

Blackadder as a freemason. Now there's scope for imagination....

[ACW599]

I can't remember the Monty Python sketch in its entirety, but isn't there an architect who comes out with:

"I want to be a Freemason. Masonry opens doors. I've got a second-hand apron. I nearly got in at Hendon".

[threepointonefour]

No hidden agenda, no sacrificial lambs, no vestal virgins and no politics.


What's the point in that then? If I was joining a "society with secrets", I'd damn sure want one of the secrets to be 'vestal virgins' !!! ;)

[BEagle]

"Yes, well, that's the sort of blinkered, philistine pig ignorance I've come to expect from you non-creative garbage. You sit there on your loathsome, spotty behinds squeezing blackheads, not caring a tinker's cuss for the struggling artist. You excrement! You whining, hypocritical toadies, with your colour TV sets and your Tony Jacklin golf clubs and your bleeding Masonic secret handshakes! You wouldn't let me join, would you, you blackballing bastards! Well, I wouldn't become a freemason now if you went down on your lousy, stinking knees and begged me...."

"......if one of you could put in a word for me, I'd love to be a freemason. Freemasonry opens doors. I mean, um, I-- I was a bit on edge just now, but-- but if I was a mason, I'd just sit at the back and not get in anyone's way."

"I've got a second-hand apron."

"I nearly got in at Hendon."

From Monty Python's Flying Circus The Architects' Sketch

[ACW599]

>"Yes, well, that's the sort of blinkered, philistine pig ignorance I've come to expect from you non-creative garbage. You sit there on your loathsome, spotty behinds squeezing blackheads, not caring a tinker's cuss for the struggling artist. You excrement! You whining, hypocritical toadies, with your colour TV sets and your Tony Jacklin golf clubs and your bleeding Masonic secret handshakes! You wouldn't let me join, would you, you blackballing bastards! Well, I wouldn't become a freemason now if you went down on your lousy, stinking knees and begged me...."<

Wonderful. Ideal sentiments to express at an OASC interview . . . along with "I don't want to be a pilot. I want to be a LUMBERJACK".

Many thanks to BEagle for the reminder.

[BEagle]

"I didn't want to be a pilot anyway. I wanted to be... a lumberjack!

Leaping from tree to tree as they float down the mighty rivers of British Columbia! The Fir! The Larch! The Redwood! The mighty Scots Pine!

The plucky little Aspen! The great limping rude tree of Nigeria!
The smell of fresh-cut timber! The crash of mighty trees!

With my best gal by my side, we'd sing, SING...

Oh, I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay!
I sleep all night and I work all day"

He's a lumberjack, and he's okay!
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

"I cut down trees, I eat my lunch,
I go to the lavatory.
On Wednesdays I go shoppin'
and have buttered scones for tea."

He cuts down trees, he eats his lunch,
he goes to the lavatory.
On Wednesdays he goes shoppin'
and has buttered scones for tea.

He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day!

"I cut down trees, I skip and jump,
I like to press wild flowers.
I put on women's clothing
and hang around in bars!"

He cuts down trees, he skips and jumps,
he likes to press wild flowers.
He puts on women's clothing
and hangs around in bars?!

...He's a lumberjack, and he's okay!
He sleeps all night and he works all day!

"I cut down trees, I wear high heels,
suspenders and a bra!
I wish I'd been a girlie,
just like my dear papa!"

He cuts down trees, he wears... high heels?
Suspenders... and a bra?!

[Two's in]

Needless to say, in the land of the free, being a Mason is not only public knowledge, it is widely advertised. Lodges have massive signs up outside, you can get masonic bumper stickers, and a bloke I interviewed just last week had a masonic ring on that would have made the Archbishop of Canterbury blush, it was so big (I've always admired the Archbishop's ring). Much is made of the charity aspect, no real emphasis at all on the goatskin apron and anal intruder aspects.

[Runaway Gun]

Suspenders? Sounds like one Ppruner has 'come out'. :rolleyes:

[Zoom]

Not of course that I'm saying that's what masons do, because I don't know. All I know is my dad was invited to join, declined and his career stopped advancing. Coincidence? maybe.:ok:

Yep, coincidence. My dad was invited to join, joined and his career stopped advancing. Remember, dad's aren't always as fantastic at their jobs as we think they are. Ask your son.

I had wanted to join many years ago because I like clubs and societies - nothing more - but didn't get around to being invited. Then in the last couple of years I attended a couple of Ladies Nights with a view to sussing it all out and I found that I had just completely lost interest in the whole thing. I realised that I just could not commit myself enough to be a worthwhile member. But I am still impressed by the amount of good work that they do, including looking after my very sick mum at the Masonic Hospital in London, and I am amazed that they are happy to get on with it despite all the pointed whingeing, whining and bellyaching that they have to put up with.

[Blacksheep]

I know of a young chap serving in the Royal Air Force who was a Freemason through family connection. He was a Senior Aircraftsman, Painter & Doper. Upon leaving the RAF he secured a job in our company as Foreman, Aircraft Finishing - a grade that would equate to Chief Technician in the service. The fact that our Chief Maintenance Engineer at the time (and several more of the management) were members of the local lodge would have had nothing to do with that appointment, of course. :hmm:

He was naturally, well out of his depth and despite his weekly nights out in tuxedo, had to be terminated - but not until the end of his contract.

As to charity and looking after their members, a friend of mine retired from Borneo, returned to UK and bought a small business that included a sub-post office in Romsey, Hampshire. Depite his being of the third degree the local lodge, being a bit "Hoi Poloi" with Earl Mountbatten of Burma as a local, didn't reply to any of his letters infoming them of his arrival in their patch. Unfortunately his wife died a few months later, he went into depression and was unable to keep the business running. He went bankrupt. No help from the brotherhood for him, though he regularly gave local brothers the distress signals when they drew their pensions from his sub-post office. A charity? A pretty strange one from my point of view. The only people who DID help him get out of his depression, get his act together and get going again was the Royal Air Force Association.

[brickhistory]

"Free?" "Masonry?"

Say, I've got this brick barbeque grill stand I've been meaning to build.......

[radarnav]

Not necessary to know who masons are but all the names are available at Freemesons' Hall. If you know the Lodge name go and look.

Would point out that you have to be invited to become a Mason - could there be a bit of sour grapes out there perhaps?

Did hear of a V force crew that were all Masons - was there also one that was all ex-Etonians too?

[Nimbus265]

Heres some interesting facts (Gross averages!!): There are currently 330,000 Freemasons (not "Free Masons"), meeting in 8,644 lodges registered with the United Grand Lodge of England; 150,000 registered under the Scottish and Irish Constitutions: Total 480,000 in UK.
Current UK population is estimated at 59,600,000 (2003 Census)
Approx 50% are male, and approx 25% are aged below 21. That leaves approx 2,235,000 eligible men in the UK. Even taking the most conservative estimates, that means that 1 in every 50 men in the UK is on the square!
The current manning level for the British Army is approx 117,000 (all ranks and ages), approx 10% are female leaving 105000 serving men. Just based on the national average (1:50) there are at least 2000 serving soldiers/officers who are freemasons.
I'm sure you have your own theories or can apply your own more scientific maths to other Services....
Did you know that Freemasons raise the most money for non-masonic charities each year....
Freemasonry is not a secret society - it is a society that has secrets - big difference. While it is true that you have to be 'invited' to become a mason, it is relativly easy to extend an invitation to somebody who shows an interest.
http://www.militarymasons.co.uk/

[Testingtheseatlimit]

No sour grapes on my part chaps, I had an invite to join a while back and declined due to not feeling comfortable with the whole concept. Alot of what has been said in this thread has alleviated some of my concerns over freemasons but I still haven't heard any good reasons for the secrecy. I guess that is a secret. It will just have to remain a myth, life would be boring if we didn't have myths anyway, wouldn't it? The truth is often less exciting than the story!

[Acey ducey]

I got 'invited' to join the Masons a couple of years ago. Went along to meet a few of the chaps and was very dissapointed with the whole thing. Seemed like a bunch of people with not a lot to do apart from being able to say they are part of 'secret society'.
I think I might join the Illuminati instead and see if I can do something useful instead like participate in the destruction of the Catholic Church!
Flame on!!!!!!!

[Pontius Navigator]

<<While it is true that you have to be 'invited' to become a mason, it is relativly easy to extend an invitation to somebody who shows an interest.>>

I was led by the nose a few times and told that I had to show an interest before I was invited but that I would only be invited once.

I have been very careful since, avoiding dark alleys at night etc

[Blacksheep]

The friend of whom I spoke earlier, who was ignored by his 'brothers' when he needed help, once arranged an invitation. Despite the lure of blood-curdling oaths and the odd bit of cold steel, joining the Freemasons didn't seem a very Blacksheep sort of affair.

I'm not really a men-only society chap actually, and much prefer the company of women. (Providing we've been properly introduced of course. I'm no cad!) Each to his own is my motto...

[Up & Away]

I may be wrong but don't you have to 'openly declare' that you are a mason if you are a serving member of HM services??
It is this rule/restriction has 'stopped' many servicemen joining whilst they are still serving. Those lodges which are service connected are having fewer joining at the moment as now most are waiting until they retire.
I do not think there are high numbers of masons in the flying game anyway.

[MostlyModerate]

TTSL Just supposing I gave you a list of all the Masons in the Services, what would you do with it ?

[Spry]

<head above parapet>
I know I am only a VRT, but I have been a freemason since I was 22, a few years ago now! In my time I have met a lot of serving Officers and Airmen/Women, yes there are lady freemasons, at various meetings and social functions.

The one thing they all agree on is that being a freemason has neither helped nor hindered their careers and I tend to beleive the information from the horses mouth.

I happen to know that there is an RAF Lodge, which I understand some of their Airships are memebers of. I am still trying to wangle an invite and still have had no luck.

For the record I have never experienced favoritism for my being a freemason. I am currently a bus driver, so I speak from experience. I am quite a senior freemason having worked hard for 18 years in various lodges and chapters.

The only people who have an axe to grind, tend to be those who know nothing of freemasonary except what they have read in books like "The Brotherhood"

</head above parapet>

[Testingtheseatlimit]

MostlyM. Good point. Nothing really. As I said in an earlier thread, my early concerns are being dispelled (a little) by some of the replies in this thread. But, bearing in mind the apparent numbers we are talking about (they seem low?), I would like to think that a list of Masons in the RAF would show that there were not a disproportionate number of Freemasons progressing nicely through the rank structure, proving, to some extent, that there are no "bunk-ups". I realise that there must be a variation in talents within this organisation, some good, some average, there may even be more gooduns than averageuns. However, just ocassionally, I see some rather average guys fly through the ranks, often avoiding the hoops most of us have to jump through to be considered for promotion. I have matched the Myth of Freemason "back scratching" with this anomoly (whether wrongly or rightly) and would just like to see evidence of what has been said in the thread above. Believe me, I suspect that there is no Mason "conspiracy", but as long as there are secrets there will always be suspicions; I'm pretty sure I'm not alone with this one.

[Lou Scannon]

"We're taught that we're a society with secrets, not a secret society. If a mason wants you to know, he will."

Indeed, but as one of those secrets is the list of members-does this not make the Masons, by definition, a secret society?

As to civilian involvement, there was one now defunct airline that was known as the Gatwick Lodge.

...and some of my best friends are Freemasons !

[MostlyModerate]

TTSL The improbable rise through the ranks of seemingly inept people is by no means restricted to the Services; believe me it happens in commerce and industry, and as we all know, in politics too ! I am still at a loss to explain many of the instances I have seen, because I know for sure that none of the people in question were Masons. Incidentally, it is not generally known that Masons are forbidden to use their membership to procure personal or pecuniary advancement, and if they do, they are liable to expulsion.
If anyone applied to me for a job, and in the course of the application made it known that he was a Mason, I would reject him out of hand for misusing his membership. However, in the case of two otherwise equally qualified candidates, one of whom I had reason to believe to be a Mason, he would get the job - simply because I would believe him to be respectable, honest and trustworthy.

TTSL and Lou I don't know what you think the secrets of Masonry are. Freemasons Hall in London ( including the Grand Temple and Museum) are open to the public five days a week. Just walk in and ask to join one of the hourly tours. The Book of Constitutions and the Yearbook are freely on sale, which between them cover the whole structure of English Freemasonry, including every Masonic Lodge and their meeting places, plus dates of meeting. And for several years now, local Masonic Centres have held regular Open Days for interested members of the public. Some "Secret Society" !
Membership lists are not published because they are considered to be a matter of privacy for each member. If he wants you to know he is a Mason, he'll tell you.

The actual secrets relate to modes of recognition, and thereby acceptance by others. They took their rise in the days when craft skills were hard won and jealously guarded. Today they serve to cement the peculiar bond of friendship which is Freemasonry.

[Testingtheseatlimit]

Thanks MM, I'm enlightened now. I'll do some background reading next time! Still don't know why Freemasons have to have a "peculiar friendship", but youre right to suggest that its a private matter. Nuff said. Suppose I'd close this thread (as its opener), if I could. Regards to all who took part!

Testing

[Lou Scannon]

The point MostlyModerate, is that any organisation that has a secret membership list is by definition, a secret society.

I am well aware of the excellent example set by the Scottish members who parade annually so that anyone can see who their members are.

Why the English membership do not is open to question. But it is this very act that brings so much suspicion and ill-informed rumours upon the Masonic movement.

Which, from my limited experience of some excellent men who are members, seems a pity.

[Heliport]

Discussion on freemasonry running here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=214809)

[John Eacott]

The point MostlyModerate, is that any organisation that has a secret membership list is by definition, a secret society.


These days any society (or club) has to keep its membership list secret. Privacy Laws et al require it.

So by your definition, the BBC Blue Peter club is obviously a secret society :rolleyes: And probably every RN Wardroom, PO's mess, RAF mess, etc etc. :ok:

[eagle 86]

S'Side,
I was about to join - you've put me right off!
GAGS
E86

[Lou Scannon]

John Eacot:
Membership of "Blue Peter" is not a secret but data protection laws prevent certain useage of the list.

RAF officers are not a secret organisation and all are published in the Air Force List.

Freemasonry membership lists in England have always been a secret.

Do, I wonder, those service personnel receiving PV clearance admit to membership of the Masons?

[Spry]

John Eacot:
RAF officers are not a secret organisation and all are published in the Air Force List.
Freemasonry membership lists in England have always been a secret.
Do, I wonder, those service personnel receiving PV clearance admit to membership of the Masons?

Under the Seditious Organisations Act of 17?? all Masonic Lodges had to send a copy of their membership lists to the Lord Chancellor every year and they were subject to public inspection at the Public Records Office. The requirement of the Act was not repealed until the 1960's, so I am afraid that it is only the last 40 years that Lodges have not published their memebership records.

As for mention of ones membership when being vetted it is covered under the Human Rights Act, that one has a RIGHT to privacy in ones private avocations.

[buoy15]

BEAGS
As you are word perfect, you've obviously got the LP or the tape!
I nearly got inducted - but after a bit of reading up - I found that some of the initiation ceremonies I would have been obliged to perform would have reminded me of John Cleese, and with my cynical sense of humour, I would have probably burst out laughing and embarassed those present and made a complete @rse of myself.
Nowadays, when I'm introduced to someone who insists on crushing the flesh between my index finger and thumb with a very positive handshake, I simply reply, "How do you do, I'm wearing a pink corset tonight"
They tend to leave me alone after that
I'm guessing now, but I suspect your Beelzeebub statement will get you off a speeding charge in the right Magistrates Court
In fairness, they do a great deal for all communities and are to be admired.
A recent and very generous donation of 5 de-fibrulators at a cost of £10,000 from a Lodge in Kent, was turned down by the Chief Constable because it involved a photo call with him and members of the Lodge
He quoted some Home Office PC cr%p about "involvment" with secret societies - How on earth did he get to CC without being involved? I can only assume he may be a Muslim or similar - any thoughts?
Love many, Trust a few, Always paddle your own canoe

[Tigs2]

buoy15
laughed my c@@k off. To think you have been admitting wearing a pink corset to the wrong people all your life. you read the WRONG books(but John Cleese is and openly admits). never mentioned or worn a ponk corset... thats obviously your thing. infact,....you have made a complete arse of yourself!

[Pontius Navigator]

<< know I am only a VRT, but I have been a freemason since I was 22, a few years ago now! In my time I have met a lot of serving Officers and Airmen/Women, yes there are lady freemasons, at various meetings and social functions.>>

That must make the breast bareing initiation a bit different.

As for secret membership lists, I once had to help the worshipful master sort out his database. I must admit to being distinctly uncomfortable.

[Tanewha]

Why do you boys get so worked up about who is a Freemason and who isn't? Is it simply a case of the haves and the have nots? I know that men have a natural hearding instinct (hence you all like to wear the same thing at functions unlike us girls) so is it the fear of being left out.

CIRCUMORNATAE UT SIMILITUDO TEMPLI

What I strove for at school and still stands me in good stead.;)

[Testingtheseatlimit]

Tanewha,

You better go and do the EO Cse. Or is it all right to slag men off? It sure aint the other way round. But lets not turn this thread into a gender battle eh?

Testing

[Tanewha]

Woah.
I wasn't slagging men off. I actually quite like them. Its just that you seldom hear women wondering who is and isn't a Freemason.
Discuss.

[Nimbus265]

Not So,

I overheard quite a lengthy discussion by a group of female JNCOs on what Freemasonry is or isn't!

And my sister-in-law is facinated by the whole thing....

So Mote it be!

[MostlyModerate]

Just before this thread grinds to a halt, let me add a couple more points in clarification of what has been writtten before.

1. Applications for membership MUST be entirely voluntary. If you have done your homework, asked your questions and decided that you would like to join, go ahead and apply. If you wait to be "invited", you will wait a long time . A Mason may intimate that he would be happy to support an application from you, and an invitation to a Ladies' Night may be a hint, but YOU must take the first step.

2. You could fill a small library with all the rubbish that has been written about Freemasonry, going back to the 17th century. Most has been penned by people who know a soft target when they see one. or who think that all the misfortunes of the world are down to masonic skulduggery. Politicians and the press cannot, or will not, accept that they do not have the right to know everything about everybody. It can be argued that Masons have only themselves to blame for not shouting back, and have allowed the mud to stick. But things are changing, and Masons are encouraged to be more open than ever before. Even five years ago, you would not have found me writing this in a public forum.

3. Little has been mentioned here about the principal activity of Freemasons - Charity. A couple of points. Freemasons in this country raise the best part of £10,000,000 a year for Charities, both Masonic and non-Masonic. Plus what they may give privately. That is second only to the National Lottery ! And very importantly, that is what they give themselves-from their own pockets, not from rattling a tin in the High Street.

Thanks for letting me have my say.

If you want to know the truth about the Masons, Why not ask one ?

MM

[BillHicksRules]

Testing,

This might be an old question but I really would love to know:
Why can't we all know who the Free Masons in the RAF are?


Why should they?

What right do you, or anyone else have, to know which organisations people are members of?

To be flippant, should all individual's associations be made public?

AA, Weight Watchers, Model Railway Enthusiasts?

Cheers

BHR

[buoy15]

TIGS2

Never worn a ponk corset - where do I get one?
Do the apron and gloves come as a package in a choice of colours?

Who'se the A%se now?

Regards B15

[insty66]

I've read this thread several times now.
What's the point of it?
Getting involved in life helps you get on. Moaning about life helps you moan.
Don't knock the masons for their rituals or ties to history, the Navy live by those things yet no one calls for a curb on their activities:oh:

[Time Flies]

I am calling for a curb of all Navy activities...



...and so is Roger... :ooh:

[Bruiser Loose]

I66,

Jealousy, will get you nowhere.........................

[insty66]

It's not jealousy.
Just a comparison between two fine old institutions:}
Never been one for boats myself:ok:

[Dogfish]

What about other organisation that have secret memberships like the Buffalos, I don't hear anyone harping on about them. Whether you're a free mason or not is up to that individual so let them be :)

[Wingedapache]

The Free Masons is a fine brotherhood with strict morals, in the world we live into day isn't it fantastic that something so fine and that does so much good for society is alive and strong? If you suspect someone of being a Mason (Its not illegal) ask them, I am sure they will answer truthfully and with pride. In my experience from the ones I have met, they are all on the better side of our society and I just wish more people in the country were like them! Oh and by the way I understand that its not so much a secret society but more a society that has secrets!

[southside]

The man is right. Not every secret society is bad. My grandfather introcduced me to his society (TOC H) some years ago and I have been an active member for some years. Its no big secret what we do, nor do we shout from the roof tops.


and I was about to join - you've put me right off!
GAGS
E86


Oooohhhhhh, shame. I am so so so sorry. Sorry to have messed up your career plans........


Bye then.............

[ratty1]

I doubt you could even join a building society Southside...........:8

[Formally Known As]

I find it bazaar, that a “rational” person can contemplate “signing up” to the freemasons without the knowledge of what they are about to get themselves into. They cannot possibly have the knowledge before they enter, as it is secret!

Makes me wonder what else they are prepared to commit themselves, or signatures to without finding out before hand what they are about to enter into? Maybe they are prepared to sign a contract without knowing what they are signing. Even more disturbing, I ask, would they be prepared to sign a legal document at work? E.g., an a/c tech log, load sheet etc., etc. without the required knowledge to be in a position to do so and relying on the word of “mates”.

[Tigs2]

Makes me wonder what else they are prepared to commit themselves, or signatures to without finding out before hand what they are about to enter into? Maybe they are prepared to sign a contract without knowing what they are signing. Even more disturbing, I ask, would they be prepared to sign a legal document at work? E.g., an a/c tech log, load sheet etc., etc. without the required knowledge to be in a position to do so and relying on the word of “mates”.


Formally known as
I hope you remain known as 'Formally known as'.

If you think that our servicemen would fill in aircraft paperwork because a fellow mason asked them to do so then you are a complete and utter t:mad: :mad: t! How dare you suggest that belonging to an age old (much older than you think)organisation would lead to gross professional deriliction of duty. There are many resons why people will put their signatures on bits of paper without due thought and consideration, but being a Mason is not one of them. Our people are professional regardless of their private little hobbies you muppet.I have NEVER asked a favour of a fellow Mason and never would. If i were in utter financial dire straits i could ask for help and would recieve it, but i doubt i would ever ask for help unless my family were starving (in which case it must come from their pocket NOT by preferential treatment, promotion or special business favours). I would not ask someone to sign a document that anothers life depends on because he's a mate.:mad:

[AdanaKebab]

Once went out with a girl whose father was the Grand Poo Bah (or whatever) of the local lodge. I saw a copy of the masons 'bible' on the sideboard and had a sneaky peak. Full of the formats of the bizarre rituals ... interesting reading.:8

[Formally Known As]

"I hope you remain known as 'Formally known as'."

As I dont have eyes in the back of my head, or relish the though of a knife in said back, or my throat cut etc., etc., I too hope I remain formally known as.

[Tigs2]

Formally Known As
Yeh! we do that all the time, stabbing people in the back and cutting their throats, we are all mad murderers and serial killers. You are a sad, lonely, prejudiced, ill informed, ignorant individual, without the intelligence to answer the criticisms to your last W:mad: :mad: K post reference number 82 in case you are confused. Please leave this thread and go and sit in your own little sad corner and solve the world’s problems. As I said again from your post in 82 you are a bigot who does not have the gumption to answer my post number 83.

Yours in anticipation

Tigs2

[flipster]

FKA/Tigs

Now, now you two - take a deep breath.........and reeeelaxxxxx!

I've nothing against the Masons - I thought they were quite a good band - or was that the Mansons?

Well, whatever! I do know a few Masons and, as Tigs said, they do a lot for charity and I don't care whether they roll their trousers up while 'singing ging-gang-guly' and 'three cheers for the holy grail', they do a lot more good than harm - moreover they seem to have their heads screwed on and don't tolerate any t~ssers.

However,I have to admit that I know diddly-squawt about their 'rituals' and would have to know an awful lot more about that side of things before I put my name to any bit of paper - and I don't think I would, anyway. That doesn't make them bad... and me mad - or even vice-versa!

[buoy15]

Adana
Did you you complete one of these bizarre rituals with her before her dad spotted what you were doing and threw you out?

[South Bound]

I don't pretend to know too much about Free-Masonry (if there is such a word), but really why do people feel the need to stick their nose into other people's private lives? If it is run as a club, with rules and regulations, even a code of behaviour that everyone signs up to willingly, why should I care as long as everything they do is legal. I say legal and not 'above board' because why should it be open to everyone to see? I understand concerns over nest-feathering and the like, but are you really telling me that doesn't happen in other walks of life (old school tie and all that)?

If we start to get into the habit of making people declare their membership to Clubs, where will it end? There are people out there who would seriously cast doubt on a individual's suitability for a job if they found out they supported a certain football team (clearly Man Utd supporters could not get a job in Manchester...), and everyone has their own bias. Religion is a great example I won't get into!

Personally I found talking to a Mason mate of mine a really interesting experience, he was very selfless and it just seemed like an OK thing to do. Let them be and let us all look more closely at our own lives and see if we do as much for our brothers and sisters in the World.

[ZH875]

Which is worse:

What Freemasons actually do,

or

What Joe Public think the Freemasons actually do?


Ignorance is a very scary thing.

[MostlyModerate]

FKA

If your postings reflect genuine misgivings, and you believe that your life ( or anyone else's life ) is adversely affected by the existence and activities of Freemasons, then please let us have chapter and verse.

I, for one, will be only too happy to try and set your mind at rest.

[Formally Known As]

Tigs2

Don't you ever try and pull w**k on me.

Just calm down a little and try and sort this thing out in an orderly fashion. My initial posting on this thread consisted of 2 paragraphs. I noted with interest you have not mentioned the first paragraph in your rabid ravings. Could I take it you are in agreement?

As for other posts and 82's I haven't a clue what you are on about. Plain english would suffice. Please try not to rant in future, that's a good chap.


MostlyModerate

Well, hello to you Sir. You come across as a decent sort of a chap with no tantrums and armed with a perfectly reasonable question. The answer is no.

[flipster]

Quote

".....pull W@nk" ..........isn't that a tautology or somesuch?

Sensible banter only pse gentlemen!

[Crashed&Burned]

There is no doubt that the principles of Freemasonry are completely laudable, but it is the practice that in many cases gives pause for concern. It is often described not as a corrupt organisation, but an corrupting one.

There is no doubt that many Freemasons give their fellow masons unfair advantage, try being a Glasgow policeman or lawyer and not being a mason and see what I mean, and I must take issue with a previous post in this thread, Scottish masons are not open, in fact are much more secret (should I say discreet) than anything I have experienced in England.

I cannot recall ever seeing Scottish Freemasons in open parade in the streets. Perhaps there is a confusion between them and the Orange Lodge organisation, but that is a thread for another occasion......

[Tigs2]

Crashed and Burned
Every single year at a lodges installation, Scottish lodges have a parade. I belong to a lodge that has a parade the Saturday before every Christmas. Also every year the lodge itself holds all the Burns poetry competitions for all the school kids, at which all mums, dads and teachers come along. The lodge is infact the center of the community. If you would like to come next St Stevens day to the parade (Mason or not) please let me know, you are welcome (dont know of a single english lodge that does this). Infact as a mason you can knock on the door of any lodge for any meeting and you are welcome in. In England i can only go to a meeting if formally invited.

Formally Known As
you have little right to lay down any ground rules. I work for charity and contribute more to charity in one year than you will do in a life time. If you take it upon yourself to suggest that i or my fellow Masons within the service would deem to sign for a job never done because they are fellow masons then you can go and shove it up your a:mad: :mad: e. Your remarks are offensive and a slur against professional aviators and technicians. in such a case i hold every right to 'dare to pull w:mad: :mad: k over you' as you so nicely put it, because you are in fact a w:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: r, and after such remarks as your's you do not deserve a civil response. An apology to all those you have offended would not go amiss. In answer to your first paragraph in your post number 82, i was fully aware at each stage what i would be signing to up to before i did, and at every stage had the opportunity to say no. I did it because it was a good thing. But of such things from your bigoted mindset it appears you well never any idea.

[peterperfect]

After youve freed the Masons I reckon we should all campaign for the Renault Five, they were stitched up by a bent copper and playing cards on a camel train to Cairo at the time.
Got my coat.

[MostlyModerate]

[quote=Crashed&Burned]
There is no doubt that many Freemasons give their fellow masons unfair advantage,

C & B

As requested above, please let us have chapter and verse. As I understand it, for there to be " no doubt", there must be incontrovertible proof.
Lay out your evidence, in full, with names, dates and locations, and send it to either the Grand Lodge of Scotland or the United Grand Lodge of England. You may be assured that genuine complaints will be thoroughly investigated and disciplinary action taken if proved.

Otherwise, please desist from making wild accusations which serve only to smear Freemasonry in general and give gratuitous offence to its members.

[Crashed&Burned]

Experience shows that masons do give advantage to their 'brothers' and it is naive to suggest otherwise. I have seen it happen time and time again. I am afraid it is the norm rather than the exception as some posts suggest.

As for the kind invitation to join, I must decline. Any success I have had has been by my own efforts in what I believe has been open competition.

What is the point of joining any secret organisation? Doing good? Sounds like the old line' He does a lot for charity but he doesn't like to talk about it..' It would appear that masons talk all the time about their charity work - why do they need a secret society as the vehicle?

How do masons feel about other secret organisations? Happy?

[civobs]

beagle wrote:
'If they choose to have a secret society, so what. Does it really matter?'
yes it does because there's suspicion that a funny handshake will get you a job, in a world that supposedly functions on the basis of merit. if membership is declared, surely there can be no issue?

southside wrote:
'There is nothing secret about freemasonry. No hidden agenda, no sacrificial lambs, no vestal virgins and no politics. Freemasonry is simply concerned with showing tolerance and respect. Freemasons are charitable and work for the community.'
this is very interesting.... perhaps you could provide a link to their published equal opportunies policy?

and tigs2 wrote:
'You wont find a bad bone in the lodge.'
oh really? what about jack the ripper and where's our grail gone hmm? btw interesting term: 'i *belong* to a lodge' ?

now about all these secret airfields....

[Tigs2]

GODDDD this is getting really tiresome.

Crashed and burned you say that experience has shown that masons give advantages to their brothers yet you also admit that you have declined to join. You are WRONG Cand B and you have clearly ignored the previous posts from 5 pages of people, many of whom are Masons have posted.

Civjob
wher are you going??? you say
and tigs2 wrote:
'You wont find a bad bone in the lodge.'
oh really? what about jack the ripper and where's our grail gone hmm? btw interesting term: 'i *belong* to a lodge' ?

So the history books say that one murderer in history 'may' have been a mason (you dont know and nobody can actually prove it") i do believe that the rest of humanity in terms of murderers are not Masons. About the grail, who says it is your grail?? I have seen the grail it is in !!!!
Ooh sorry i almost forgot myself, i cant tell you!!! Bye the way just so that you know i have met many black masons, masons in wheel chairs and female masons! Your point about equal opportunities is!! Furthermore yes I 'belong' to a lodge, and i am proud of it, and the only persons i do favours to are the poor. Bye the way about the theory about the grail, bugger nearly forgot myself again. I am also a member of the Knights Templar, and you never will be, and you will never know, I do!!

[South Bound]

I don't pretend to know anything about how the Mason's operate, but this whole 'preferential treatment' argument seems a bit dull.

We all judge people, rightly or wrongly, on their backgrounds, their life and work experiences (else why else have a CV?). IF (IFIFIFIFIF) it happens, I can't see what is wrong with taking membership of a organisation that does huge amounts of charity work, with the associated sacrifice of time and money, into account.

It seems a lot more honest to me than the 'Old school Network, or relying on one's London Club membership or Daddy's money to get a job. Only difference is Masons can come from any background and I beleive that the only 'general' criteria for joining (if one joins!) is that members should believe in a 'higher being'. I don't, which is why I have never taken my interest further.

As I said, if I am talking rubbish, I apologise to the Masons on the thread, but it just gets on my t**s when everyone wants to know everyone else's business, basing their justification on rumour and conjucture.

Shutting up now.

[Crashed&Burned]

Tigs,

I have no axe to grind about masons, they are a fact of life, but I KNOW that secret advantage is given by masons to masons. That is what secret societies are for, not only yours. Why else do they exist? You don't need one to do good and since masons tell of the good work they do (you can't get more public than the large number of masonic hospitals), it can't be for that reason.

As I said in my earlier post, masonic lodges are not corrupt, they are corrupting; it is human nature to use systems to advantage and sectret societies give that option and many use it.

Sorry, but I don't accept your view.

[Tigs2]

C&B
I accept your view which is one that is formed from a position of ignorance (i.e lack of knowledge, no slur intended). Please will you accept from me that in my experience and the peer group around me i have not (and they haven't) ever used Masonry to gain any form of advantage. It does not happen. I know that there are various books out there ('The Brotherhood' springs to mind) which are full of sensationalist sh**e. There is nothing in that book that resembles anything i have ever encountered, but the reason it was full of sensationalist sh**e was to sell books, and it worked. It is now starting to hurt banging my head on the wall, i repeat, we help the poor, not ourselves. There may be other groups that naturally give advantage to each other, but apart from a bed for the night if a visiting mason is in the area we do not do that. I do not know how to make it any clearer.

[Crashed&Burned]

Tigs,

I don't speak from ignorance, nor from reading The Brotherhood, but from experience. I am delighted thatyou have never encountered the circumstances which I have.

I am still unclear why you need a secret society? (And, please, not the cliche, 'society with secrets', that is a semantic play on words and is not wholly accurate).

Anyway, you have your view and I have mine. The original thread was about masons in the RAF. I have no experience of that grouping so shall leave it to others to contribute.

This subject has become uninteresting since we are each stating and restating our views and affecting no one.

[MostlyModerate]

C & B

Before you disappear from this discussion.......

Please let me repeat my advice that you take any evidence of misdoings to the appropriate Masonic authorities. The Grand Lodge of Scotland, the Grand Lodge of Ireland and the United Grand Lodge of England ( inc Wales ) are all in the phone book. Freemasonry is just as keen as you are to eliminate wrong doing by its members.

Perhaps you would also let us know where all these Masonic Hospitals are ? The only one in England was the Royal Masonic Hospital at Hammersmith, and that was sold off 20 years ago. Perhaps all the others are being kept secret - even from the Masons.

[Crashed&Burned]

Sorry, enough is enough.

C&B

[Farrier]

I have been asked by a "soon-to-be inhabitant " of RAF Cranwell whether I knew anything about meetings in the area. As I was taught to be cautious could any Brethren at that stn contact me off-line to guide me for contacts, times and places etc so that p&p may be the result.

Regards

Farrier

[covec]

I'm a Mason.

And I told all my ROs in the Reporting Chain (who were not Masons I might add) when I was first invited. [This was due to a now out of date DCI stating that membership was illegal - then - circa 1980s?].

It has never helped me professionally!

I joined cos of five things:

1. Curiosity.
2. Grandad was one.
3. Having read the Holy Blood & the Holy Grail many years before. I genuinely love the stuff about ancient Rome / Solomon etc.
4. Charity.
5. A personal belief - formally mirrored by my fraternal brothers - that all men are born equal.

I have also been DV'd. And 'fessed up to my Masonic membership.

I remain a member because of two other reasons:

1. I like the members! A good bunch.
2. ;) [Not a professional reason, now]

And I close now!

For those deployed on ops - heads down guys n gals. Stay safe.

[Formally Known As]

"oh really what about jack the ripper............"

Here are 2 more, Kenneth Noyle, the M25 road rage murderer.

The perpetrator of the Dumblain massacre, forgotten the name.

[boswell bear]

"oh really what about jack the ripper............"
Here are 2 more, Kenneth Noyle, the M25 road rage murderer.
The perpetrator of the Dumblain massacre, forgotten the name.


how many crimes are commited by non freemasons?

[civobs]

anton meyer wrote: Oaths? ..they are unrelated but I do have a marital oath and 2 professional oaths that are all equally important to me, let alone those that I make in Open Lodge.
but what about 'closed lodge'?

of preferential treatment:
mostlymoderate wrote: 'However, in the case of two otherwise equally qualified candidates, one of whom I had reason to believe to be a Mason, he would get the job - simply because I would believe him to be respectable, honest and trustworthy.'
and
tigs2 wrote: 'If indeed they do look after each other it would only be the same as you looking after a really good mate from your mess.' and 'There may be other groups that naturally give advantage to each other, but apart from a bed for the night if a visiting mason is in the area we do not do that' and 'Our people are professional regardless of their private little hobbies....'.
aside from sniggering at tigs2's 'private little hobbies', does this really mean that a mason may be considered more suitable for a position of trust, whether it is in the workplace or the home, than someone that is also suitably qualified/acceptable? isn't there plenty of scope for professional boundaries and rational decisions to become blurred on that basis? do the masons have criminal records bureau checks? are there such a thing as born again masons that have turned over a new leaf? i do good and charitable deeds daily in my job will you offer me a job/bed for the night? might the person who is not selected because they're not a mason have a right to feel aggrieved?

on a less serious note:

tigs2 wrote: 'Infact as a mason you can knock on the door of any lodge for any meeting and you are welcome in. In England i can only go to a meeting if formally invited.' and 'who says it is your grail??'
well if your lot hadn't pinched it from it's rightful home in glastonbury, they might let you in without suspicion!

mostlymoderate wrote 'Freemasons in this country raise the best part of £10,000,000 a year for Charities, both Masonic and non-Masonic. Plus what they may give privately. That is second only to the National Lottery!' and tigs2 wrote 'About the grail, who says it is your grail?? I have seen the grail it is in !!!!'
are you sure it wasn't a tea caddy? it seems to me that if charity work is not just a front to make them acceptable whilst really trying to take over the world, they should let people know. but how come there as so many neds and sengas still living a life of squalor and penury in the tenements? perhaps the grail (an object supposedly invested with enormous power) is not being used appropriately and thus should be returned to england.

tigs2 wrote:'Yeh! we do that all the time, stabbing people in the back and cutting their throats, we are all mad murderers and serial killers.'
exactly! what about poor captain william morgan and his publisher? http://www.zephnet.com/?select=squib&league=composite&post_id=73651&docket=1&linkoff=1

tigs2 (the lee harvey oswald of the masonic world) wrote: 'I am also a member of the Knights Templar'
yes of course tigs! i do hope you are older than 33 http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/13_33_freemason_sig.htm ..... last supper? http://www.letchworthshop.co.uk/shop-images/1135.jpg

anyway, now the masons are all touchy feely and people are still suspicious..... i wonder why? nothing sinister about them at all is there? http://www.letchworthshop.co.uk/shop-images/1630.jpg

perhaps it's not such a good idea to allow it in the military after all.... :}

[meadowbank]

I've just found this thread and am not a mason, despite being asked to consider membership on several occasions. Perhaps my understanding is incorrect, but isn't there something in the Masons' Code of Conduct (or whatever it may be called) about always supporting/assisting a fellow mason who is in trouble, provided that such support/help does not fall outside the law? I think I'm paraphrasing part of an explanation my father-in-law gave me when I was quizzing him about allegations of favourtism, his point being, presumably, that there is a subtle but important difference between helping a fellow in trouble rather than giving a masonic mate an unfair bunk-up.

Perhaps one of you masons following this thread can give a more accurate rendition?

[MostlyModerate]

Meadowbank

Not too far off the mark. A Mason will ( or should ) always offer a helping hand to another who is in difficulty, provided always that such help does not contravene the laws of his God ( the deity of his particular faith ) or his country ( native or current ), or would be to the detriment of his family and dependents. His assistance is limited to what he can afford to do or to give, and he is under no compunction to give help where it is not needed.
Having said that, I think you will find that most Masons are the sort of characters who are only too willing to help anyone less fortunate than themselves - masons or not.
Hope that helps.
MM

[Tigs2]

MeadowBank
Mostly Moderate has hit the Nail on the head.

Civ Job
I am really not sure what your problem is. and reviewing the posts i am not sure what i have done to deserve such a personal abusive post? (Lee Harvey Oswald?). Anyway, the main difference between us, is that i do not remotely think like you. You clearly have a knack for seeing the bad in everything and the good in nothing. I will not waste my time repeating this again. We 'masons' do not give unfare assistance/promotion/bunk-ups to anyone. We help the needy.

You keep harping on about the same things CivJob. Your comment concerning the Grail is typical of the cynical ignorant approach you have. You say
quote "perhaps the grail (an object supposedly invested with enormous power) is not being used appropriately and thus should be returned to england." Why returned to England CivJob?? You are ill/miss-informed to believe it has ever been in England? Even if it had, why should it not be returned from where it was taken? Does the Rossetta stone belong in England? Or should it be returned to its rightful owners?Furthermore, the grail was never in Glastonbury (but well done, you helped feed the authors who said it was). I suppose you too think it is a jewel encrusted golden cup, and that Christ was a white handsome male (same as the interpritation of God in the Vatican). Why should the grail be invested with amazing powers? Too many Indiana Jones movies. The only power it possesses is the power that we (humans) bestowed upon it, and that has led to unimaginable corruption and crimes against humanity. So all in all its better off well out of the way really.

Bye the way if you were the type of chap who did good deeds for others then yes, i for one would certainly welcome you for the night and expect nothing in return, however i think you try and see too much of the bad in people, so i am not sure you fit in the bracket (could be wrong of course).

Again you are hitting on the fact that Jack the Ripper and others (Masons) were murderers (we still dont know who Jack the ripper was, and one of the chaps they have narrowed it down to was not a mason). I have known policemen convicted of murder, does that mean they all do it? Doctors, Dentists, Bank Managers have been convicted, does that mean they all are. Some soldiers have been accused and convicted of torture in Iraq, does that mean all of our soldiers do it?? Your responses are very immature, you say you hope i am above 33, well from your responses i hope you are above 16.

Inccidentaly concerning the quite unlawful murder of Quote " poor captain william morgan and his publisher?". In the 19th century William Morgan threatend to write ALL of the secrets of the early grades of masonry (maybe this is where Jack the Ripper got his info from! They think he could have been living in the US), at a time in our (the worlds) history when he joined an organisation that at the time would have stated quite clearly that to divulge secrets would have meant death. Once in the club you kept it secret. It was the same as many 'secret' organisations in those days. Despite many many warnings, he published, and a few nutcases ( the world still has lots of them around) decided to kill him. I actually have an original first edition of the Morgan Document stating on the front he had just been murdered as it was going to print, if anyones interested in buying (guess e-bay is better). Masons are not told anymore that they will be murdered you may be glad to hear. Its just all a matter of trust. A trust that once placed in you, you are loathed under any circumstances to break, because its TRUST, CivJOB. Your posts indicate that you do not really experience that mutual feeling of trust in many people, and with that i feel quite sad for you.

The thing about trust and helping the needy CivJob is that it is really good for the soul. It makes you and others feel good. If you do not believe in the soul then i guess nothing really matters, you can be negative and cynical and untrusting, and what the hell. But you never get that genuine feel good factor (totally different i might add to owning your first Ferrari or buying a million pound house. Thats all material crap).

Try looking for the good in people, eventually it will be reciprocated, and you will feel really really good about yourself.

Tigs:) :)

[meadowbank]

MM,
Ah yes, those words sound more familiar now and lead me to the point I was going to make:
Let's take a hypothetical situation within the UK Armed Forces (which is the area of concern that started this thread). An officer makes a decision based on his interpretation of the circumstances. However, it subsequently becomes apparent that this decision was not the correct one and he has unfairly disadvantaged (perhaps seriously) someone on the receiving end of this decision, who has subsequently voiced his dissatisfaction, requesting redress. Our hero could change his mind, reversing his previous decision, but the circumstances mean that this would result in serious embarrassment and loss of face. Fortunately, this officer is a freemason and there's a guy two ranks above him in the command chain whom he knows to be a fellow freemason (perhaps they even belong to the same lodge), so he approaches him for 'help in his difficulty'. This senior officer recognises his masonic brother's dilemma ('need') and supports the original decision of the offficer who, whilst junior to him in terms of military rank may well, if I understand correctly, be junior, senior or equal to him in terms of masonic status (degree?).
Thus, the senior officer has saved the embarrassment of his junior (to the detriment - again - of the 'disadvantagee', at no personal cost. This is the kind of area that is sublty different to, yet really the same as, giving someone an obvious bunk-up such as ensuring (sponsoring) the man's promotion. There is a broad feeling of suspicion (and that is all we are talking about here) that this sort of thing goes on throughout society, and the sentiment expressed by non-masons on this thread is that this is not appropriate in HM Armed Forces. Well, I now work for a civilian organisation and the volume of rumours about freemasons being promoted ahead of their non-masonic peers is probably larger than that which I can recall during my service days.
So, what would be a suitable way forward, which would show freemasonry in a good light, helping to remove (misplaced?) suspicion, without disclosing the identities of those who prefer to keep their masonic light under a bushel? How about, instead of publishing names as the thread-originator suggests, why not research and release figures for numbers of freemasons within particular organisations, especially those organisations which are, shall we say, most sensitive? These would certainly include the Police, Army, Navy, RAF, Judiciary, MPs and peers, but other professions may well be seen as necessary (teachers, barristers, town-planning officers?). This would infringe no-one's personal liberty and would calm the disquiet if, as masonic contributors to this thread seem to suggest, there is an equal spread of masons throughout society. If 5% (number made up - I have no idea!) of professional workers are freemasons and it transpires that 15% of senior Army officers wield the trowel (or whatever :) ), this might be grounds for genuine concern for both mason and non-mason alike.
Hope this drags the discussion away from the personal insults.
MB

[MostlyModerate]

Tigs2

Thank you for replying to Civobs.
My Forum Handle precluded me from doing so.

MM

[Tigs2]

MM
you're welcome.

Meadowbank
Just when i thought you were sending in reasonable posts....
If you re-read MM's post then what he is actually driving at is that these 'difficulties' are generally financial ones (they could be a shoulder to lean on). For example "hello Jim everything all right mate, your're not your usual self?' 'Not really' says JIm 'the bank are about to repossess the house, i'm 2 months behind with my mortgage' 'Look mate' he is told 'dont worry, ive got some spare cash if it will help, you're welcome to it, just pay it back whenever you can, no pressure'. Its as simple and uncorrupt as that. I would like to think you would do that for a mate if it were not going to cause you hardship. I would, and he dosnt have to be a mason.

some of you guys are really starting to grind me down aaaaagh!
Your hypothetical situation does not work, it doesn't happen. As you say at the end maybe 15% of officers may be a part of masonry, i dont even know the numbers. That means 85% are NOT in masonry. Are you trying to tell me that masons would be the only ones to do favours for each other? I have NEVER heard of a mason giving a peg up or unfair/ unlawful advantage to another mason in the RAF. I cant speak for the other services. Now from the result of other posts i need to repeat that. I have NEVER heard of a mason giving a peg up or unfair/ unlawful advantage to another mason in the RAF. I cant speak for the other services.

What is far more common and likely and the reason that i left is a flight/squadron commander giving advantage to their golden boy/golden girl. Or the squadron commander who gives advantage to a subordinate because they were mates on the same IOT, flying course, Squadron. It is more likely that this would be the case in your scenario. There are blatant examples in the past of certain flying instructors giving students of the opposite sex a very unfair advantage and 'peg-up' in the flying training system. Not because they were masons, but because of the fact they fancied the other, and i know cases of this occurring in instructors of both sexes, to the extent that one course commander resigned because he was told be the CFI to pass a student of the opposite sex who was way below standard, and he would not put his name to something that was clearly favoratism. Or the chief Tech who changed the 1st RO's report on a JT from rec to spec rec, because it turned out the CT told the 1st ro that the JT had always done a great job baby sitting for him.

Is the picture building up here? People who like other people, who fancy other people, who owe other people, who joined together, who trained together, who have others as their 'golden boy' give those respective people an unfair peg up the system. Masons go to great lengths to make sure that in a professional environment we do not get caught giving unfair advantage. If we did it would give ammo to people like you Meadowbank. If you know of one example of a mason giving unfair advantage to another in the armed forces then tell us. But i know of dozens of examples of non-masons giving non-masons a distinct advantage, for many reasons concerning human interaction. In any organisation, if your face fits with those above you, then you will be advantaged.

Meadowbank and the rest of you concerned with Masonry, i would stop worrying about the 15% of masons and start worrying about the 85% of non masons who i can state examples of giving unfair advantage to others.

[Pontius Navigator]

Any Lady Masons in the RAF?

[MostlyModerate]

Tigs2 and Meadowbank

If I may add to the last couple of posts a reference to what I explained earlier on in this thread. I would deem the said officer to be out of order in atttempting to use his membership for personal advantage, and I would expect the senior officer to tell him so in no uncertain terms. Perhaps an acceptable approach might be " Look , sir, I've got myself into a hole and I would appreciate your advice as to how best to extricate myself". We all know someone a couple of rungs up the ladder to whom we can turn for advice - whatever our profession.
FYI, Meadowbank, generally, masonic rank is conferred in recognition of service given, and outside specifically masonic matters it carries no authority.
To quote Burns - " Rank is but the guinea-stamp. The man himself's the Gold ".

A few years ago, the Home Affairs Select Committee, ably agitated by Messrs Mullins and Winnick, declared Freemasonry to be a self seeking secret society incompatible with all forms of public life ( or similar wording ). In consequence, the bandwagonners started demanding declarations of membership from the police, the judiciary, local authorities et al. All were supposed to be voluntary. The MOD issued a DCI " reminding members of the Armed Forces that masonry might be detrimental to the performance of their duties etc etc " .(again I paraphrase ). When asked of precisely what they were being reminded, a lengthy silence ensued.
The United Grand Lodge of England took the MOD to court, on the grounds that it was incompatible with UK and European Law to single out Freemasonry. Why not Rotary, Round Table, Buffaloes, WI, Golf Clubs or any other organisation. UGLE won, MOD paid all costs and the DCI was withdrawn. Over the next year or two, demands from other bodies have been quietly dropped.

And Meadowbank's request that we " move forward " seems a bit pointless. I do not wish to " move forward" . I am happy where I am. I don't need a "way ahead" or any other management-speak expression designed to make me lead my life according to someone else's agenda.

MM

[MostlyModerate]

Pontius

Now why on earth would you want to know that ?:)

[Pontius Navigator]

:D

One has one's reasons.

[meadowbank]

Tigs2
Just when i thought you were sending in reasonable posts....
..... well, I'd sent in one post prior to the one you're now answering, attempting to return this thread to sensible debate instead of points-scoring and insult.
If we did it would give ammo to people like you Meadowbank
What's that supposed to mean? I take it that you're not being complimentary! On the basis of one posting you claim to know me and what I'm like?
i would stop worrying about the 15% of masons and start worrying about the 85% of non masons who i can state examples of giving unfair advantage to others
That's rather like saying that 85% of road deaths are caused by people who haven't been drinking, so let's target them. It appears from the above that politeness and debating skills are two things not required in your lodge.;)
MM
We all know someone a couple of rungs up the ladder to whom we can turn for advice - whatever our profession.

You make a valid point, but the suspicion that has been expressed within this thread is that there is an undue and unfair amount of support going on. This may or may not be the case, whether we were talking about masons or Old Etonians, but whilst I can easily establish that two people are members of the same golf club or went to the same school, I cannot establish whether or not the 2 men concerned are masons.
I have one particular case in mind in which 3 very senior officers have supported one another, and been supported in turn by the MoD, despite the fact that their judgement in the case has been shown by several independent inquiries to be fundamentally flawed. If, as you suggested earlier, I knew that masonic collusion was going on, I would very much like to take any evidence of misdoings to the appropriate Masonic authorities. The Grand Lodge of Scotland, the Grand Lodge of Ireland and the United Grand Lodge of England, but I would presumably first have to establish that these gentlemen are, indeed, masons. The procedure you suggest is, therefore, unworkable for the non-mason. I could chance my arm and write complaining about them as if I already knew them to be masons. If my hunch turned out to be correct, I wonder what response I would get - a humble apology, an assurance that these particular brethren had been driven out of the organisation or would I just receive a reply denying that these men are masons? After all, how am I to check?
Freemasonry is just as keen as you are to eliminate wrong doing by its members.

With respect, it doesn't seem like it to me.
I am happy where I am. I don't need a "way ahead" or any other management-speak expression designed to make me lead my life according to someone else's agenda.

The point is that the rest of us are not happy, and are trying to show why we aren't. Sorry if you think that the phrase I used is management-speak, but it seems an innocent-enough everyday expression that was certainly not designed to do anything.

mb

[Formally Known As]

meadowbank

A very good and well put post indeed.

[Tigs2]

Meadow Bank
I certainly was not trying to point score and certainly would not wish to insult. If you wish to debate that is good, in which case please read the thrust of my post, i,e about others helping others instead of locking on to comments you deem (incorrectly) to be a personal attack. They were not meant to be. My post concerns the fact that many people give unfair advantage to others.

[meadowbank]

Tigs 2
Pleased to hear it, though PMs I've received indicate that I wasn't the only one who interpreted your comments this way.
See my most recent post for response to the main thrust of your (and MM's) responses. I would welcome your further comments.:)
MB

[MostlyModerate]

Back to the pc after a very pleasant weekend. Hope you all had a Happy Easter.

Meadowbank - I am not really sure what further comments you want. I contributed to this thread in the (vain?)hope that I could cast some light for those who genuinely wanted to know a little more about Freemasonry, and to refute some of the absurd and totally unsubstantiated allegations about its members. What can I say to those who are determined to see a Masonic conspiracy behind every case of perceived injustice or unfairness ? Nothing I say will make them change their minds.

It cannot be denied that there have always been some bad apples - hardly surprising from a worldwide membership of millions. But I leave you with a quotation which was made to me many years ago.

" It is not a question of how many unworthy men get into Freemasonry - it is a question of how much Freemasonry gets into unworthy men".

MM

[Tigs2]

Meadowbank

You say

[
I have one particular case in mind in which 3 very senior officers have supported one another, and been supported in turn by the MoD, despite the fact that their judgement in the case has been shown by several independent inquiries to be fundamentally flawed. If, as you suggested earlier, I knew that masonic collusion was going on, I would very much like to take any evidence of misdoings to the appropriate Masonic authorities. The Grand Lodge of Scotland, the Grand Lodge of Ireland and the United Grand Lodge of England, but I would presumably first have to establish that these gentlemen are, indeed, masons. The procedure you suggest is, therefore, unworkable for the non-mason. I could chance my arm and write complaining about them as if I already knew them to be masons. If my hunch turned out to be correct, I wonder what response I would get - a humble apology, an assurance that these particular brethren had been driven out of the organisation or would I just receive a reply denying that these men are masons? After all, how am I to check?

mb




I am very sorry but you have not answered the points in my post number 117. You said you had. Please read the latter half of the post. Your example above is bordering on the nonsensicle. You say that three senior officers have supported each other as has the MOD, you then go on to say that they might be masons?? What about the very likely fact that they might not be. So you might write to the Grand Lodge complaining about them and get a letter back saying that they are not Masons. Are you living in a conspiracy world where if anyone supports anyone else it automatically confers to you that they are Masons. The mind absolutely boggles.

[Nil nos tremefacit]

I never cease to be amazed to find that my position in life is to do with all the advantages that Freemasonry has brought me. In 16 years in the Royal Air Force I don't recall getting a single favour from anybody, masonic or otherwise, that furthered my career. I wish I had, a Flight Lieutenant's pension is not enough to live on.

I just don't believe that anybody gets more favours through being a Freemason than any other system. No doubt there are people who favour Lodge members, but round here it is more important to belong to Burford Golf Club than any Masonic Lodge. A Masonic friend is letting me have his car for nothing; the fact that we know each other literally from the creche is more likely to be an influence.

It should be remembered that when you are invited to join a Lodge it is unlikely to be a complete stranger that does it, but more likely somebody who has known you or your family for years, since they have to declare in the application form the time they have known you and that they deem you to be a suitable person to join the Lodge. I joined a Lodge where one member had delivered newspapers with me and another, as stated, is a life long friend. I met lots of new people, but all were indirectly linked to each other through mutual friendships over many years. It might be the fact that people know each other outside the Lodge that conditions any propensity to favour them.

The membership of Lodges is private. I cannot obtain a list of all members of the RAF Golf Society, or whatever it is called, but I suspect that people within it do favour each other. I've seen people ordered to take a day off to attend a championship even though the rest of us had to cover!!! If my masonic membership is desired by others within the service (and I am still on the Reserve List), then it is reasonable for me to be given the names of all of the members of other bodies within the RAF, including, obviously, the religious denominations entered on personal records (would you believe some RC type removed my membership of a station Anglican church committee from my list of secondary duties at ACR time).

We might well have an open society, but that doesn't give anybody and everybody the right to know who belongs to which clubs and societies.

The difference of course is in public life where civic society now demands declarations of interests. As an elected Town Councillor I have already declared openly my membership of my lodge (available at Carterton Town Hall) as well as all the other bodies that I am involved in. That doesn't mean that every member of each of those bodies has to declare their interest, but that those of us who hold public office should be open to place us above suspicion.

I do not consider being a member of the Royal Air Force to be 'public life'.

[Spence Braithwaite]

Only just got round to reading this thread, not sure if I should have done now! The initial question was basically requesting membership details, as details are not published for any other organisation why should the masons do so? As to the ongoing question about membership enhances ones promotion prospects all I can say is rubbish, I have been a mason for several years, I wear a masonic symbol on my name badge, mention it on my annual boast sheet and where has it got me.....absolutally no-where, if anything it has hindered me. I am a mason because I like to help people less fortunate than myself, I am also a rotarian for the same reason. As far as my personal experiences go I have seen more of my comrades promoted because they played golf with senior officers or drank with their 1st RO than any Buff, Mason or Rotarian. There was a similar thread a few years ago, having a go at Freemasons for their anonimity, as I wrote then, it is a sorry state of affairs when the only person posting threads using their REAL name is a member of the "Secret Society" that you are all having a go at!