Pilots ready to fight Jetstar in court

[Wirraway]

Fri "The Australian"

Pilots ready to fight Jetstar in court
From: By Steve Creedy
March 10, 2006

QANTAS pilots are lodging an appeal and launching Federal Court action after yesterday failing in their first bid to stop a new Jetstar agreement that they claim undercuts industry wages and conditions.

The Industrial Relations Commission yesterday refused to hear arguments from the Australian and International Pilots Association against the certification of an enterprise bargaining agreement endorsed by Jetstar pilots.

More than 160 of Jetstar's 250 pilots, none of whom are AIPA members, voted in favour of changes that allow the low-cost Qantas (qan.ASX:Quote,News) offshoot to fly wide-body jets overseas.

The deal is a significant step forward for Jetstar, which will next week put a new enterprise agreement to cabin staff.

"It's a locked-in agreement and obviously a very important development for the international long-haul project which we are headlong down the road to undertaking," Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway said.

"Whatever views are expressed outside of that are individual people's or groups' views. Our pilot group voted positively for the agreement, the commission this morning certified the agreement, so the agreement is as it stands."

Jetstar, identified as a major Qantas growth vehicle, plans to launch international flights by year's end with costs 40 per cent below existing services.

But Qantas pilots say the deal, which pays Jetstar international pilots up to $100,000 a year less than their mainline counterparts, lowers industry salary levels and conditions.

The union plans to appeal to the full bench of the IRC because it believes a general aviation award - which was used to apply a "no disadvantage" test in yesterday's decision - does not reflect the pay and conditions of airline pilots.

It also says Qantas pilots who were promised positions at the airline were not part of the vote, and has lodged a Federal Court claim that it contravenes workplace legislation.

AIPA president Ian Woods said the commission's decision was a surprise as the union had simply sought an opportunity to put material before it. The AIPA had no choice but to appeal, but the union was not considering industrial action if its legal challenge failed.

====================================================

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

More than 160 of Jetstar's 250 pilots, none of whom are AIPA members, voted in favour of changes that allow the low-cost Qantas =


Incorrect again Mr Creedy.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Does he mean of the 160 pilots that voted yes, none are AIPA members? One couldn't possibly know that could one?

[dirty deeds]

Its all over in this country guys, forget the industrial relations commission, start looking at Flight International, www.cathay.com and www.dragonair.com, because these are only places that pay the real money anymore. We all better start getting used to eating rice and rogan josh. Otherwise enjoy living in Australia, working for parasitic leeching companies that use the fact you won't leave this sun burnt as an excuse to pay us sub standard salaries, buy your cheaply built weather board heap of crap home somewhere between the outskirts of your lovely duel basing, and reap the rewards of the crop you have sown!

Any guess how long it takes for people at j* to start complaining about their conditions, I say three to four years, because at VB it was about one year after the expansion stopped. Would love to be a cruise FO on a base salary of around $45Kpa for 3 years, especially eating out and dinning in some of the most expensive cities in Asia, this is going to be funny to watch. They will end up like SQ and CX cabin crews that can't afford to eat out and eat noodles in their hotel room, Ha Ha. But hay, maybe they will have to still get used to eating rice and curries when they base them overseas anyway!

[Sandy Freckle]

All very funny until they spud one in, DD.

[ur2]

Who would that be, QF ?

[dirty deeds]

[QUOTE]All very funny until they spud one in,DD[QUOTE]
Good call, but news flash, they said that about VB and it hasn't happened.
And ur2 has a point as well, you don't have to be working for J* to go and play golf! But once again guys, this is not my point, it's about our conditions and you can kiss them all goodbye, have fun working in this low paying part of the industry, my advise would be to get your applications in elsewhere before everyone else does, I have seen this happen before when a certain companies future looked rocky, and those that timmed the jump the best ended up with the best result for that particular time. So its all about timming, how long till we are all so pi$%ed that we either leave in droves and head OS or form one union and shove it to them! Those are the two only options left!

[engine out]

Cathay and dragon may pay real money now but for how long? Surely it is time to realise that flying is not the glamour paying job it once was. Frankly i think i started at least twenty years too late! In a tough economuic global environment pay will not go up to meet inflation when companies are trying to make more profit.

[dirty deeds]

Good point as well engine out, but its not Australia up there, so they have to pay the money to attract people to the job, and without our crews there they do spud them in, thats why it conditions up there in Asia will last longer than down here, the facts and statistics are there to see.

[speedbird23]

For all you intellegent guys out there who want to express opinion and advise, have to wonder what your logic is.
Pay comes down to one thing like anything else. Supply and DEMAND.
This industry like everything else goes in one big cycle. Eventually pay will rebound and be on a par with the pre 9/11 days. As the DEMAND for pilots grows. Thats why the asian and middle east carriers pay what they do. WHo really wants to live there and work. No ONE! Who wants to live in Australia and work? EVERYONE. Qantas and Jetstar will never have to pay what the rest of the world does simply for that reason.
It then comes back to one thing. IF you became a pilot because you love flying, then you will always be happy. If you became a pilot to become rich, then you F*&^%D UP! Pissoff out of the industry and become a doctor or froklift driver and leave the job to the people who genuinely want to be there for the love of it. STOP BITCHING AND WHINGING ABOUT THE INDUSRTY THAT HAS BEEN HEADING TOWARDS THIS SITUATION IN THIS COUNRTY FOR THE LAST 10-15 YEARS. It may not be right but it is the way it is.

[Valdiviano]

Well said, 23

[murgatroid]

Speedbird,

What if you become a pilot and want to have a life as well? Are these two things mutually inexclusive?

Do you know that the J* deal only guarantees "free of duty at your Home Base for a minimum of 9 designated days off in 6 roster periods [months]".

Yep, promises are promises but the contract is the contract and that is what it says. So if the company so choose, days free of duty can be AWAY FROM HOME BASE - satisfies the CAO's, satisfies the contract.

So tell me, are pilots not able to have a career and a life? Are we to be at the complete mercy of the company. We all love flying, are professional and take great pride in our jobs. But remember, wives, kids, family and LIFE are just as important. It doesn't take long for the international jetsetter lifestyle to wear thin on most of us.

It is not just about the money!

[Transition Layer]

Amen Murgatroid...

I'm sick of this bullsh1t sprouted by tools like Speedbird23. Of course we all started flying cause of some strange desire to get behind the controls of an aircraft and defy gravity. When I was a 7yo completely overwhelmed watching aeroplanes out at the airport I sure as sh1t wasn't thinking about the money or lifestyle or chasing girls all over the world.

But their comes a point where you develop other priorities. You want to buy a house, a car, go on holidays, spend time at home relaxing and generally live the life the rest of your mates have had while you've been busting your guts in GA. But when you get in an airline, just because you love it, doesn't mean you have to roll over and cop one where the sun don't shine.

TL

[puff]

Doesn't matter how much you love your job at the end of the day any job is just that, a job. Remember folks you work to live not the other way around. As murgatroid said the problems with this deal isn't just the money on offer, it's the overall conditions.

Had my medical recently and the DAME was commenting that the biggest bitch most of the pilots he had seen of late was lack of time at home with the family and the fact they were always tired because of the hours they are working, esp BOC.

Remember most of the AN pilots never worked as hard as most of the guys are now, and the numbers of guys that I know of that died in their late 60s is scary.

[F/O Bloggs]

The funny thing Dirty Deeds,
Is that I have heard of Dragon Air pilots applying to return to Aus and fly for Jetstar international. I guess pay isn't everything afterall.

[Ronnie Honker]

And another funny thing, Bloggsie, I personally know several Jet* Captains who are leaving Jet* (at short, short notice) to take up jobs overseas.
Jobs that pay 2 and 3 times the salary they're on now.

"Hearing" of Dragon Air pilots "applying" to join Jet*, and having them actually leave a job that gives them shiploads more $$$$$'s, shiploads more leave, and shiploads more lifestyle are worlds apart.
The management rumour mills have got you guys jumping at your OWN shadows.

Australia might be a great country -IF you've got the income to enjoy it, after the tax man has halved your wage.
Even 737 drivers in India are picking up USD10.5K per month, and getting the time off to enjoy it.
Dragon Air pays more than that (taking allowances and bonuses into account).
WTF would they want to come here for a miserable $6k after tax?!

[turbantime]

Even 737 drivers in India are picking up USD10.5K per month, and getting the time off to enjoy it.

Not true. Just been to India to visit relatives and have been talking to some pilots. The pay is more like the GA award here and you only get one day off per week which is the legal requirement.

[Ronnie Honker]

Not true.Just been to India to visit relatives and have been talking to some pilots.
You're correct, sadly, turbantime - the salary for LOCAL pilots is around Oz G.A. level (and even less). However, for experienced expatriates, the packages offered are on a par with - and in some cases, better than - that being offered in most other countries.
I can assure you, from 1st hand knowledge ;) that foreign pilots are being offered contracts that pay USD10.5k, per month.

Over time, the Indian pilots will also see their conditions improve - unless the Jet* pilots go across there, and offer to fly the new, shiney aircraft for less!

[B A Lert]

Amen Murgatroid...
,,,,, When I was a 7yo completely overwhelmed watching aeroplanes out at the airport I sure as sh1t wasn't thinking about the money or lifestyle or chasing girls all over the world.
But their comes a point where you develop other priorities. You want to buy a house, a car, go on holidays, spend time at home relaxing and generally live the life the rest of your mates have had while you've been busting your guts in GA. But when you get in an airline, just because you love it, doesn't mean you have to roll over and cop one where the sun don't shine.
TL

Most young kids dream of what they want to do when they 'grow up'. Problem is that quite a lot NEVER grow up and live a life in la-la-land. THey still are dreaming when it comes to what they think thay should be paid, and the conditions they enjoy. But.....many stop dreaming when they find that the dream becomes, to them, a nightmare. If people don't like what they are doing, they should try something else like most mortals that populalate this planet. GET REAL, AND GET A LIFE. :{ :{

[B A Lert]

WTF would they want to come here for a miserable $6k after tax?!


Ronnie needs to broaden his outlook and get out of his own little world. $6k after tax equals $72,000 after tax a year. Most Australians would be over the moon with that kind of take home pay. In fact, most Ozmates get by on less that half of this. Get a grip old chap - how bloody miserable can you get?

[Chris Higgins]

BA Lert,

That's a very low salary, even in the bankruptcy environment of America. I saw Hawker 800 pilots earning much more than that in 1999. Regional Pilots at Comair, the bankrupt subsidiary of Delta were making $130,000 US to fly a Canadair RJ up until last month. At the last count of exchange, Aus $183,000.

It's the old saying, "lead follow...or get out of the way".

The question is; exactly where is this latest Jetstar offering leading the Australian industry?

It sure looks like... right off a cliff!

[Animalclub]

B A Lert is right. You have the choice to stay or go. You knew what the lifestyle was before you took up the job... or you were an idiot to take the job in the first place.

If conditions changed AFTER you joined the company (no matter which company) your union/association would have/should have warned you and you could have made a stand for your principles.

Be happy in your job. You enjoy the flying... you can live very well on your salary package... you can only operate (fly/duty) a maximum of so many hours per day/month/year by law. Are you being asked to do anything outside the law?... or anything extra?

[Chimbu chuckles]

Do you know that the J* deal only guarantees "free of duty at your Home Base for a minimum of 9 designated days off in 6 roster periods [months]".

Yep, promises are promises but the contract is the contract and that is what it says. So if the company so choose, days free of duty can be AWAY FROM HOME BASE - satisfies the CAO's, satisfies the contract.


murgatroid this is plane, unadulterated rubbish. It is typical of the manic missinformation that is doing the rounds and creating massive discontent all over the industry...particularly at mainline.

J* pilots, be they domestic or under the International EBA get 9 days at HOME per MTH some mths and 10 days at home in other mths...IF they, for some reason or another, DO NOT get that then those days are carried over and they will get them in the next mth on top of that mths normal number

The JPC are not morons:ok:

[Keg]

Chimbu, this is from the J* award.

25.1.3 “You will be rostered free of duty at your Home Base for minimum of 9 designated days off in 6 roster periods and 10 rostered days off in 6 roster periods. The minimum number of days off in a roster period for a pilot will be notified to the pilot no later than before the end of the preceding period.”


25.4.5 “If you are at a layover port, or assigned temporary duty away from home base, you will be rostered for days free of duty as required. We will use our best endeavours to ensure that such days do not detract from your basic entitlement to days off at your home base, except with your consent or at your request. You will be rostered for any days off accumulated under this provision upon return to your home base or where this is not possible, in the next roster period.”

So, what does that say? Is that an inaccurate quote from the award? What are the words? Don't talk to me about intent when I read the words and know what they can mean. I flew the 767 as an F/O for 8 1/2 years with QF. Believe me, I know the difference between 'intent' and 'what is written in the award'. J* pilots may be getting nine days off at home at the moment, they may not always get that in the future.

The JPC recommended a substandard deal full of holes big enough to drive an A330 through. If they're not morons, what description is there that fits with recommending the deal with the above clauses in it? :rolleyes:

[QFinsider]

My reading of the agreement is in the same light as you Keg...But although we have had plenty of problems with the 767 they won't. Gimme a break.. As I have said before they collectively need all the luck in the world...Leopards do not change their spots:mad:

They certainly will need their "best endeavours"..Where have we heard that before?
:E

[Chimbu chuckles]

except with your consent or at your request. You will be rostered for any days off accumulated under this provision upon return to your home base or where this is not possible, in the next roster period.”

And particularly the bit that says You will be.

It doesn't say 'you may be' or 'if the mood takes us' or 'on a cold day in hell'.

Honestly guys read what it says not what you think it says.

No-one I know at J* is characterising this deal as fantastic....but they have the flying and if not enough pilots bid for longhaul the company must come back to them and ask why...if it takes more of this and that it will be up to them to negotiate those extra bits of dis an dat.

Read the clauses on DECs...aint gonna happen except for a very limited time under very limited circumstances...and then said dude goes back to the RHS and to a base his seniority dictates unless expansion keeps him in the LHS...that means until every current J* pilot has been given the opportunity to change seats...but even then not necesarily in the same base. If they had voted 'no' it is highly likley that the situation would have been very different....they are convinced, and with good reason IMHO, that QF would have been INNUNDATED with applications...in fact QF was already innundated prior to the EBA vote.

I was just discussing the EBA document at length with a J* Captain mate this morning....when approached without the emotion and hyperbole issueing forth from AIPA, and it's members, the various clauses do have a basis in reason...and it can only get better.

Judging on the historical performance of the JPC (they got something like a 40% improvement in their pay in the last 4 years - 90k+various--->126kish+various) who among you wants to bet they may not achieve something similar in the next several.

I really don't think AIPA should be throwing stones at JPC guys :ok:

[Agent Mulder]

Chimbu,

You should know better having operated O/S for quite some time. You have seen some expat lifestyle and I think you would look behind the scenes before posting your last post which cannot go unanswered. I have enjoyed your stories from PNG and your tales from your Fathers era. However:

Claim:
Judging on the historical performance of the JPC (they got something like a 40% improvement in their pay in the last 4 years - 90k+various--->126kish+various) who among you wants to bet they may not achieve something similar in the next several.
How does AIPA compare in this regard?

Fact:
Without the input of the then President of AIPA (Chris Manning) the Impulse Pilots would still to this day be working under the auspices of the Trust that was set up by a few senior pilots to circumvent Industrial Relations law. AIPA helped out in that situation. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

Fact:
Without the input of the then President of AIPA (Robin Holt) the Jetstar Pilots would not have their "Retention Bonus" (approximately 6% of their salary). Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

I was there for both and I know what happened. Most new players have no idea what was involved including some of the JPC. John H knows what happened as does Craig G, Brad C, Joe O and Brook A. They were there when it happened and if you ask them I am sure they would verify it.

“No-one I know at J* is characterising this deal as fantastic....but they have the flying and if not enough pilots bid for longhaul the company must come back to them and ask why...if it takes more of this and that it will be up to them to negotiate those extra bits of dis an dat.”

Naïve in the extreme. Jetstar will relax the criteria to ensure that the positions are filled. There will be no recourse, and all direct entry Captains will never be FO’s. I’ll bet London to a brick with you on this one.

“Read the clauses on DECs...aint gonna happen except for a very limited time under very limited circumstances...and then said dude goes back to the RHS and to a base his seniority dictates unless expansion keeps him in the LHS.”

Not one DEC has ever been relegated to the RHS. It will never happen and Jetstar will not honour seniority. It is one of the mainline “legacies” that they (managers) detest!

“From memory all the really juicy bits of the long haul award were negotiated in the late 60s and into the 70s....by AFAP....before QF pilots decided Dick Holt was a goose and broke away from AFAP and formed AIPA...what has AIPA achieved for it's members in recent history...say the last 15 yrs?
I really don't think AIPA should be throwing stones at JPC guys ”

With all due respect, you have no idea of what you are talking about.

The major conditions in the Longhaul EBA were gained by taking a pay freeze (EBA 5 Min Guarantee 151 hours), EBA 6 (Minimum Daily Credit) and EBA 7 (Loss of Licence paid by Co. $700k).

AIPA has set the benchmark for Pilots in the Southern Hemisphere for many years.

The fact that others now choose the undercut/undermine those benchmarks is of major concern. Even more worrying is that supposedly educated men seem to be compliant in undermining the conditions of others is accepted by people such as you.

Tall Poppy syndrome exists where I would have least expected, a fellow professional. I hope we can make the conditions acceptable to the point that you can one day come home and join others in the job.

As others don’t take aim at your expatriate conditions, you should not comment on conditions that you do not work under and have no real understanding of.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Your basic premise then is that J* will not honour the contract and that all clauses should be viewed in the worst possible light despite their very clear wording?

That has not been the J* experience to date.

Don't get me wrong...I would love nothing better than all QF group pilots on one seniority list and everyone working together....but it doesn't seem like they have all been herded into the same corner yet...the way management is going these days across many industries I actually think that will happen...at some point.

I appologise if my last post hit a raw nerve or went a little far...I'll go back and modify it, however I too know a few of the key players....and I am a bit sick of seeing them characterised as industrially naive morons hell bent on destroying the aspirations of all Australian pilots while swan diving into the bottom of the barrel. Particularly when the arguments revolve around missinterpreting basic english and assuming J* management will just unilaterally modify the EBA as it suits them to do so...despite precedent upon precedent of them not doing so to date.

The senior pilots at J* have been through the aviation mill to a far greater extent than most QF mainline pilots. To suggest they have some degree of responibility towards every other pilot in D&G from those just starting out to the most senior mainline 744 captain is just rediculous.

AIPA has historically looked after AIPA members....to varying extents it seems. To suggest they have ever placed anyone elses aspirations ahead of their own, including those that have turned from poacher to game keeper, is just ignoring history...if not attempting to rewrite it...AIPA has not shown the slightest interest in J* until it suddenly occurred to them that they MIGHT be a threat to their own conditions.

Like the HKAoA you, collectively, seem to expect someone else to fight your (perceived) battle...say no guys and we'll stand by you...where is the precedent for that?

From what I heard in the last day or so 90% of J* pilots voted and 75% of those voted 'yes'...quite a turnout.

In the meantime, if it's ok with you, I would like to continue participating from time to time...hopefully, more often than not, with a little perspective:ok:

[speedbird23]

murgatroid and Transition Layer.
If you read the bottom line I said I didn`t agree with it but it is the way it is.
The lifestyle you leave is a reflection of the income you take home and the hours you work. Thats pretty bloody simple. So if you can`t live the way you want on the salary and conditions you are employed under then you go and find a new job or employer. That holds true for the 15y.o at MacDonalds right through to, well even you as a pilot.
My point is the local carriers don`t have to pay what the overseas ones do because there are enough guys who WANT to WORK and LIVE in AUSTRALIA. NOT IN DUBAI, HONG KONG or SINGAPORE.
For F&^K sake. Is that logic so hard to comprehend!
You call me a tool for stating a fact. An observation that the industry in this country is in a position it has been heading for since long before you became a pilot.
Your quote "it doesn`t take long for an international jetsetter lifestyle to wear thin". What did you become a pilot for then. Go and work in G.A or for a regional and be home every night. No you wont do that because they DON`T PAY ENOUGH!!!!

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

This claim of a 40% pay rise negotiated by the JPC as against 3% average rises for AIPA is the biggest furphy of the lot.

The only achievement of the JPC is a 40 % rise for pilots flying the B1900 to fly anything up to an A380.

Yes, you read correctly. The JPC in their wisdom reckon that the jump from a 19 seater to a 550 seater is worth a 40 % pay rise. These guys are GENIUSES!

Whilst AIPA has been negotiating cost of living increase on established types and rates, the JPC has been busily undercutting everyone else to get to the next shiny jet at an average of 50% less than the going rate.

Whilst A380 rates are yet to be finalised, the discount on the raw rate for an aircraft like the B744 is something like 60% less. Thats not even factoring doing the flying on the exemption. These Einsteins couldn't even get credit for doing long haul flying with generally one less pilot than mainline.

You look at the above and you start to see the enormity of the damage that the JPC have done.

RH, don't tell me that you have done well whilst AIPA negotiated peppercorns.

With your casting vote on the JPC to accept this crap deal, you have initiated a tsunami that will sweep away hard won T&C's for a pittance. I hope you can live with yourself.:mad:

[QFinsider]

they sleep well on silk sheets Borg:suspect:

Nice corner office, title and carpark space, just like mainline

[Chimbu chuckles]

TCoB...Nopulse B1900 drivers were on 90K were they?:hmm:

That's about as accurate as the 9 days off in 6 mths claim.

[dirty deeds]

I have said It once and I will say it again, one group, one union one stand. That is our only hope! Or as birdseed23 says, you might as well live on your knees but still enjoy your very tiered days off in Aus on a s@#t house pay and conditions. But hay, your still living in Aus, so we are told.

[ratpoison]

that foreign pilots are being offered contracts that pay USD10.5k, per month.

Yes and get to spend $5,000 of that on treatment for Dissentry.

[murgatroid]

Scheduling to Bloggs.

"Hi bloggs, we're quite busy at the moment so this roster we can only give you 5 days off at home base. You will have a few days off in Ho Chi Min though, and we'll repay them on your return. By the way, our basket of goods allowance system says your meal allowances are $5 for the trip - should buy you a nice satay from the street dood - have fun, lucky sod!".

"Oh your back Bloggs - how was Ho Chi Min? Enjoy the satay?. By the way, we used our best endeavours but unfortunately we can't pay you back those days off. So what we gonna do is give them to you next month. Enjoy! Hey, By the way, how's the missus? Saw her down the pub last few nights - boy did she have a few- giddyup!"

"Hey Bloggsy, got your new roster for next month. Look, we paid those 5 days back to you and as a special treat we even gave you one more (You know you are entitled to 9 days off at home in 6mths don't you) - why don't you take that missus out for a posh chow. Hey wow dood - you got 6 days off this month at home -who do you know - management suck!. Hey, by the way ,we're still busy, so unfortunately we have to give you a few days off in Ho Chi Min again. Don't worry - we'll repay them. By the way way, we found a cheaper dood for the satays - so your allowance is now $4. Have fun. Boy - wish I had your job - NOT!"

"Oh and Bloggs, forgot to tell you. Accor Mecure hotel what's it mob is no longer, yep they went busto. So unfortunately we don't have a hotel standard no more - don't worry, found some space at the Ho Chi Min Shining Palace resort and spa. It was in lonely planet dirt cheap stays - must be good eh! Best not go out after dark it says. But I wouldn't worry too much as I hear there's a great satay stall around the corner and guess what - only $2. Mate, you'll be able to treat the missus big time when you get back."

Yep - All according to the contract!

Chimbu - jot your application in yet?

[Chimbu chuckles]

Wow...after 25 yrs in this industry...and having seen things from management that the average QF dude could never dream about in their worst nightmare...even I am not THAT bitter and cynical....or illiterate.

Murgatroid, fail English comprehension at school?

And no not applying...I remain an expat from choice..I like it, despite the ups and downs of expat life and dealing with the odd management fella, over the years, that would end up in jail in Oz if they tried the stuff I have seen there.

But then I can read a contract.:ok:

[ys120fz]

It seems to me that AIPA made a major tactical blunder a couple ofyears back when they refused membership to the Jet* pilots because "you're not reallly Qantas pilots fellas'.

All the Jet* guys wanted was some representation, but didn't get any support, so now the QF prima donnas are paying the price for their arrogance.

How does that saying go? Be nice to your FO because you never know when he'll be checking you, I think.

Well this representation situation is a variation of that, and QF pilots are now on the end of a 'check'.

Jet* will be flying the bulk of the long haul flying currently done by QF, much of it in A380's, and yes, for a pittance compared with their QF brothers, but you guys made your bed.

[OhSpareMe]

Yep. You are a dead set expert ys120fz.

I am positively shaking in my boots at your claim that Jetstar will be:

......................flying the bulk of the long haul flying currently done by QF, much of it in A380's, and yes, for a pittance compared with their QF brothers, but you guys made your bed.

Jetstar is a small change outfit, and compared to Mainline, will remain so. Their job is to protect the Mainline QANTAS operation and it is a job that, domestically at least, they are doing very well. Despite what you gleefully imagine they are not going to take over the world.

According to the QANTAS Annual Report 2005 Jetstar in the reporting period flew 6 Million ASK's compared with QANTAS Mainline 100 Million ASK's.

If Jetstar ever gets up around 50% of Mainline flying then me give a call. I might give a toss then.:D

[Poto]

Have to agree with OSM
The QF brand is huge. Jet star, I imagine, will grow significantly but its got a long way to go before Mainline is gone. Why would you anyway. Mainline dom was the strongest QF performer last year. :confused:
I would love a real reason why this would happen?

It does serve a protection role for mainline and will keep Qantas on routes that don't perform on the Mainline costings. I just wish they paid the pilots more dough.:ugh:

[DutchRoll]

Anyone ever thought about the fact that we are in the middle of a golden economic age at the moment, and that when it inevitably ends or slows and a 'downturn' or whatever you wish to call it occurs, the first people to stop flying will be those who can only just afford it now? And whose customers would they be?

Food for thought, for anyone betting on a Jetstar future.

[ys120fz]

Further to the last, it occurs to me that all the Jet* pilots I talk to are happy with their lot.

The dissention is coming from outside, not within. Why? One would be justified in asking.

It appears that they think they may be next in line for the chop of salary and conditions, and that could well be the case.

Are they accusing Jet* pilots of undermining the established salary and conditions? It would appear so.

Well if that's the case, you'd better get your a$$es down to the Kew home (may have now moved to Toorak) of the former CP of Virgin, because he's the one who sold out pilots in Australia for his own greedy ends, which I believe could have been up to A$20 million in shares. He is the one who started the rot for pilots in Australia, no other.

[Keg]

vs, when I checked out as an F/O on the 767 life was great. I was in the front seat, heaps of flying, great aircraft, etc. It took a couple of years before the gloss of 9-10 days off per month at home wore off but wear off it did. So sure, most of the warnings are coming from the outside- from people who have done the type of flying that J* will be doing and have done it on conditions that were suited to it and can see the massive pot hole that J* pilots are going to find themselves in within a couple of years.

It's at that time that perhaps they won't be as 'happy with their lot' as they are currently. The light at the end of the tunnel may well be an on coming train.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Massive pot hole indeed.

Chimbu, the pay rate on the B1900 notwithstanding, anyone can see that the JPC has brokered a deal that, forever more, locks J* pilots out of further pay rises for different types.

I just find this amazing that anyone would vote for it. But they did, at a 50% discount to the going rate?!!?

J* gets the A380? The management line WILL be; "You signed off on the variation... no pay rise!!"

J* gets the B777? "you signed off on the variation... no pay rise!!"

J* gets ANY larger aircraft in the future?? "you signed off on the variation... no pay rise!!!"

Or do you guys think that AJ or GD will willingly give you more money when they have an binding contract that says they don't have to?

When Rick H has gone to his management job, and the rest of you are falling asleep at 4.00am with ZERO prospect of advancing your situation barring CPI increases, don't say you weren't warned.:mad:

[Casper]

Well if that's the case, you'd better get your a$$es down to the Kew home (may have now moved to Toorak) of the former CP of Virgin, because he's the one who sold out pilots in Australia for his own greedy ends, which I believe could have been up to A$20 million in shares. He is the one who started the rot for pilots in Australia, no other.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
ys120fz,

You must be one sick (and misguided) little vegemite!

[ur2]

ys120fz,
You have hit the nail right on the head, well said !

[ys120fz]

Casper, sick for telling it how it is??? Who's sick here? It is fact that the CP of Vrigin sold out pilots to satisfy his own greed. If he had told Branson that the going rate was the same as QF, then it would have been paid. They started the rot by flying B737-300's for less than half the rate QF were doing it for. End of story!!

Thanks UR2. I know I have it right.

Keg, if somebody had told you that when you went on the 767 you would be spending only 9-10 days at home a month, would you have refused it? I bet you wouldn't have. So why bother telling these guys; let them find out for themselves. They are big boys and girls and must live with their decisions. Do you think that if somebody told a GA pilot he would only be at home for 5 days a month if he joined Qantas, that he wouldn't join? If you do, you live in a blur of fantasy.

C of B, what has it to do with you or anybody else outside Jet* pilot group? They're adults, many from other airlines with some industrial savvy. They signed an agreement, and if it's going to cost them financially, well so be it. They signed, not you. I'm not about to tell any group, pilots or otherwise, that they've screwed up their industrial agreement.

They don't need prix like you poking them from time to time saying "I told you so".

Those of you who do that are $hitting yourselves for your own future. It's the start of the rot.

But if the QF union had given them membership when originally asked, (sorry, you're not really QF pilots fellas)the QF pilots could be resting a little better these nights.

[touchncloth]

Gee I guess that because an arrangement for representation could not be arranged before this means nothing can EVER be done in the future.
Mainline is DOOMED
Jetstar is DOOMED
Virgin is DOOMED
The Regionals, yes you guessed it, DOOMED
WE ARE ALL DOOMED

Hang on I have to go and slit my wrists
ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz:{

[ur2]

Keg,
OH DEAR, only 10 days off a month, you poor poor thing.
What about the EVA pilots, 8 or 9 days off a month and they use up 2.5 of those days to get home and back. Or the Dragon pilots, only 8 days / month or Vietnam Airlines 6 weeks on 2 weeks off, work that out. Ask any of the Sing Air Pilots too.
Do you think you may have been a little unproductive by any chance and that you have just been brought into line with the rest of the world, and are still better off ?

[OhSpareMe]

Here we go.......................
ur2 - I don't care what EVA or others do. Days off and home travel on them is their problem. And why would I want to talk with SING Air pilots? I don't care what they do either.
Dragon Air - not interested. Wouldn't worry me in the slightest if they had 20 days off a month. Good luck to them I would say.
Unproductive? I don't think so. In the last 5 years an increase of One Billion ASK's, profit every year, about 600 pilots hired, more aircraft - and that is just the Mainline operation.
Lets face it - the Mainline just have a better deal than you (whatever that is) and you seem to be jacked off about it. :ok: Get over it Sunshine.
And for you ys120fz - I don't care if the former CP of VB allegedly ripped off his oppos. Got stuff all to do with me.
Furthermore, there has been a standing invitation for quite a while for JETSTAR pilots to join AIPA. However,to date, only about 30 from the 250 odd have taken up that option. Guess they don't need AIPA hey?

[The Hooker Bear]

OhSpareMe,

Have a very close look at the essence of your post. You seem to be saying; "I don't care about anyone else but me", but then you imply that Jetstar pilots should have taken a different course of action in order to protect your conditions and those of the industry in general. So how is it that just because you're a genuine bona-fide Qantas Pilot (if I could emboss the words I've just typed in gold I would - really) you feel no responsibility at all to assist your peers achieve better conditions? Are you content to all let us "rot in hell" while you stay safe and warm upon your lofty perch? Do you always get others to fight your battles?

If the answer is "yes", perhaps then you and your colleagues might understand why you keep losing the war.

With regards to AIPA membership, you imply that even having the opportunity to join such a prestigious organisation should be the crowning achievement of any pilot's life - especially if that pilot was never "good enough" to join legitimately by virtue of being a genuine bona-fide Qantas Pilot.

Let me tell you why only 30 JQ pilots joined;

a) Because AIPA is openly opposed to the expansion of the company we work for.

b) Because the ARG in particular has only attempted to converse with us in order to promote the cause of the vast majority of its membership - Qantas Pilots - at our expense. Other than that we've never been acknowledged by the CoM (ask the CoM yourself why we've never been asked to pay a single premium, even after over 18 months as "members".)

c) Because those 30 pilots hoped to demonstrate faith that both of our pilot bodies could begin to work together. That faith has not been returned. See point (a). Why would anybody else join?

The fate of the aviation industry in Australia is portrayed as being in the hands of Jetstar's pilots alone - everyone else is a victim. How about you all stop being victims and start helping yourselves by helping everybody else.

"Got stuff all to do with me" just doesn't cut it anymore.

[any something else]

....cut to the chase.

J* is doing what should have been done long ago....bringing pilot wages back into line with other professions....the glamour and exclusivity was lost long ago.

...anyone who earns $150k ++ a year and still thinks they are on a bad wicket needs a reality check.

good luck to AIPA in their quest to secure more paying members in the future, it's going to be a hard task.:}

[OhSpareMe]

Hmmmm...........lets see now.
Have a very close look at the essence of your post. You seem to be saying; "I don't care about anyone else but me", but then you imply that Jetstar pilots should have taken a different course of action in order to protect your conditions and those of the industry in general. So how is it that just because you're a genuine bona-fide Qantas Pilot (if I could emboss the words I've just typed in gold I would - really) you feel no responsibility at all to assist your peers achieve better conditions? Are you content to all let us "rot in hell" while you stay safe and warm upon your lofty perch? Do you always get others to fight your battles?
errrr...........Jetstar pilots can negotiate whatever they want. They are not protecting anybodys conditions except their own. Am I also responsible for the conditions at Virgin Blue?
The fate of the aviation industry in Australia is portrayed as being in the hands of Jetstar's pilots alone - everyone else is a victim. How about you all stop being victims and start helping yourselves by helping everybody else.
That is your intepretation. You are entitled to that view. I don't share it. Like I said above - Jetstar are looking out for themselves and good on them. E
a) Because AIPA is openly opposed to the expansion of the company we work for.
And where would that policy have been expressed? (in writing please). Back it up with facts, because your statement runs counter to what I have read and heard from AIPA.
) Because the ARG in particular has only attempted to converse with us in order to promote the cause of the vast majority of its membership - Qantas Pilots - at our expense. Other than that we've never been acknowledged by the CoM (ask the CoM yourself why we've never been asked to pay a single premium, even after over 18 months as "members".)
Please explain how AIPA is promoting the cause at your expense? (18 months without paying a membership premium. Guess you are doing well on that front) I am up for 0.85% and probably some more.
c) Because those 30 pilots hoped to demonstrate faith that both of our pilot bodies could begin to work together. That faith has not been returned. See point (a). Why would anybody else join?
In what way were they demonstrating faith? Perhaps they saw it as a good move to join as individuals. Nobody is holding a gun to head and telling them to join. It is their prerogative to join if they so wish. I would prefer them to join and negotiate with AIPA but the fact is most of them haven't joined and that is OK with me. What I said before is that the offer is there for them to join. It is not a question of them 'not being good enough' If they wish to go their own way to so be it. No problem with that.

So Hooker Bear - what exactly would you like me to do for you?
Say a prayer? Lay asleep at night worrying about how you are -as you put it - rotting in hell?

The reality is that you work for one company, and I work for another. Each company has its own employment contract that the representatives of the employees (AIPA and JPC) separately negotitated.

I didn't know JETSTAR had a base in Khazakhstan?

[speeeedy]

Once and for all, can we just sort out this issue with the days off. ;)

Chimbu might claim he can read a contract, I beg to differ.

Now read it (Slowly….if you must).

25.1.3 “You will be rostered free of duty at your Home Base for minimum of 9 designated days off in 6 roster periods and 10 rostered days off in 6 roster periods. The minimum number of days off in a roster period for a pilot will be notified to the pilot no later than before the end of the preceding period.”

Where does it say that 9 (or 10) days off is the entitlement in EACH roster period?

If you are still having a problem reading it, lets do something really simple:
A roster period is a month, so lets replace the word “roster periods” with the word “months”,

So how does this read:

You will be rostered free of duty at your Home Base for minimum of 9 designated days off in 6 Months and 10 rostered days off in 6 Months. :eek:


This is but a symptom of the problem with this EBA, it is one of about 15 specific clauses where wording is a real problem. So whilst the money is a huge issue, it is not the only issue.

Any award certified with these well known problems as well as hand written lines through a number of clauses is an embarrassment.

So Chimbu, contrary to what you have said, maybe the JPC (or at least 3 of them) are morons! :O

[ys120fz]

Ok, it seems we have quite a few people, some pilots, and even some QF pilots it seems, who feel it is their responsibility to point out the the Jet* pilots that their contract isn't as they think it should be.

Once again, I have a number of friends who fly for Jet* and they are not complaining.

Also once again, I must question the motives of those advice givers. Why bother?? Oh, so you feel it may impact on you somewhere down the track???

OK, I understand.

But would you be prepared to listen to the advice of Jet* pilots, and others, on what you should negotiate into or out of your contract at QF? I wouldn't think so.

Speeeeedy, if you were told whilst in GA, that if yu joined QF, you would be signatory to a contract that included a clause that you may be 'rostered for 9 days off in home base every six.seven.ten roster periods', would you still sign to join QF?? Answer honestly. You'd probably enquire of pilots at QF, and find that you were home for 10 days EVERY month, and then sign. The fact that the clause is there means that you can be thus rostered, but probably wouldn't be.

[Gnadenburg]

Well I know J* pilots who believe the EBA negotiations were as amateurish as the original Impulse jet operation. They still voted 'yes' because there was no alternative, a small payrise better than none and due experience levels, are hoping they are well placed for 330-787 flying. A few years down the track, they reckon they may take a look at what the expatriate market offers.

It would be foolish of the QF pilots to believe J* will not be used as a weapon against their conditions of service. There are pilots who have yet to join J*, who will promote the future undercutting of QF mainline at all costs, to secure career progression, or a payrise.

She's your ugly sister, and you're going to have to sleep with her!

:= Inbred looking emoticon!

[QFinsider]

The funny thing is history keeps repeating because everyone thinks they are smarter than all those that came before. Every kid thinks they are smarter than their parents. parents know the drill, kids can't believe how much the parents "seem" to learn in a few years, say between 16 and 25...

IMO let J* have it, if QF dont push to within an inch of the J* contract I will be suprised. Joyce did it at Ryan air with a smile....:suspect:

If J* believe they can do it better than mainline so be it, it would be hard to believe sitting there in GA that things can get worse, but longhaul does grind you down.It did me.Longhaul ain't glamourous it is bloody tiring..The compensation is the Cash....or is that was cash in the case of J*:E

If in fact it is that J* manage to bring our conditions down it will only be when they have sufficient aircraft that they can lock us out of the building and fly the trunk routes with J* aicraft. In other words we will have lost control of the flying. Most of us younger blokes are a wake up to it. We also doubt anything that comes out of management mouthes. Bring it on we can bleed the company, they can bleed us. One thing is for sure if avian flu gets going, J* int is truly screwed-Our contract is a great deal more protection than theirs will be

[Datum]

ys120fz,

You show a concerning lack of understanding all things aviation...

Do you think corporate management personnel actually understand what FATIGUE (either ACUTE or CHRONIC) can do to a pilot's ability in the cockpit....Stop for a minute and think....why do successful and 'safe' airlines have established rostering/scheduling rules. They are in place to prohibit the 'system' from forcing pilots to work themselves into the ground. Remember International Operations are completely different to Domestic. These scheduling rules are in place because since the Wright Brothers people have learnt these lessons the hard way, that is with their LIVES....many accidents can be attributed to FATIGUE... :uhoh:

This is one of the problems now facing the aviation industry, especially LCC. Efficient verses Safe operations. A very very good reason to have operational experience within any Flight Operations department and for that matter, the corporate management level.

If the JPC have pushed this EBA through not understanding the possibilities this presents....they are IGNORANT. If however, they pushed this deal through, with the knowledge they should have....they are NEGLIGENT. Most impotantly, it is the responsibility of the Senior Pilots within any organisation (Airline or GA operation) to stand up for what is safe and fair...they MUST educate and guide their managers on what is safe and sustainable...it is their DUTY and RESPONSIBILITY...

I just hope, for the sake of all JETSTAR International pilots that AIPA can stop this deal dead in the water!

[ys120fz]

Noble sentiments indeed, Datum, but if you think the management gives a $hit about that stuff, think again. It's no different from CRM; the airline management mouths support, but really care no more about it than a tick in the CASA box. That's a fact.

Most companies to my knowledge use the CAO's or equivalent duty time limitations as their own limitations. I think the days of more restrictive work practices due to perceived fatigue, or sheer lack of interest are long gone, except perhaps with the dinosaur Qantas (I'm guessing here).

They would have a senior Captain flying a 747-400 earning less than the cleaners if they could, working harder, and wouldn't think twice about it.

Thank you for your observation that I know little about aviation. It seems you know even less about matters business.

I've yet to see an aviation manager prepared to be educated and guided by ANYBODY, let alone be educated and guided by a pilot, however senior. Get a grip on reality boy.

QF insider, be careful. I recall some years back in Australia, two airlines said just that. We can't lose they said. They'll have to lock us out they said. So the management did lock them out, and they did lose. Not everybody will hold the line, in fact very few will because they will still be gun shy over the '89 thing.

You are not irreplaceable!!! Don't ever think you are, because the day you start thinking that, you've become fodder for the management pigs.

Gnadenburg, that's exactly what will happen. Future Jet* recruits will be prepared to undercut the incumbents for employment, continuity, and promotion, but they're no different from any other group, pilots or otherwise. In my opinion, anybody who is holding a job in Australia would be insane to look at contract jobs, and come the time, most of those who say that is their intention, will reconsider.

Put the shoe on the other foot for a moment. Say Jet* pilots were being paid the same, or in excess of that being paid to QF pilots. Do youthink for a second that the QF pilots wouldn't be offering to do it even cheaper to get the
A380 flying, the 777's, etc. You bet they would.

I'm off flying for a few days.

[QFinsider]

Tsun Tsu...the art of war

I suggest you read it ys120fz

I would never walk into the killing zone. The IR laws will make strike action impossible, or almost so.
What I am talking about is simple. I can fly, my colleagues can fly. some of us posess tertiary qualifications the board could only hope for.
I can do their job, can they do mine? No one on the board can jump in and fly a 747-400 or a 737....

No matter what spin they put on it, we control the revenue. Sick leave, not answering phones, etc etc. There are plenty of ways to get a point across without walking into a kill zone.

Until all flight crew realise they can't survive without us, anymore than we survive without them we are screwed. It is a case of not playing to their strength....

[ys120fz]

QF INsider, with that attitude you're beaten already. Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings for you.

You're missing afundamental point and that is not everybody, or even many will hold the line. Many will use it as an opportunity to leap frog their colleagues. It's human nature, unfortunately.

CX went through the sick leave, not answering the phone, going sick at out ports routine, but did it get the 49 sackees reinstated. Noooooo!

What you have to remember, and the AIPA forgot, or didn't know back in that year, is that tactically, the management is months, or even years, ahead of you in thinking. It pi$$es me off when I realize that too, but it's a fact. You and I may be pilots, but chiefs like Dixon, from the Wagga School of Economics, will eat you. You wouldn't know what hit you or where it came from.

They'll be ready, and Australians working overseas will stream back and do your job for you.

I'll be one.

Would you care to answer the question I posed in the penultimate paragraph of post # 58?? I'll read it when I arrive back.

[Ronnie Honker]

Once again, I have a number of friends who fly for Jet* and they are not complaining.
When they're currently flying only 45 - 50 hours per month, why would they complain?!

One of the biggest problem with the Jet* pilots is the immaturity of their management /supervisory pilots.
Immaturity in terms of time they flew with experienced Captains, prior to them (the J* supervisories) getting their command. The vast majority did only 3 or 4 years as Ansett F/O's prior to their rapid rise in status.
And it shows (according to other pilots, who don't have a shady background.)
These are still the same pilots who want EVERYTHING NOW.

But I suspect that the company has another solution in mind - it won't be the current Jet* pilots, nor the QF gents who end up with this flying.

BTW, ys120fz, the miniscule amount of flying you did overseas doesn't qualify you to represent yourself to other Jet* pilots as anyhing other than what they know you as.
Aviation is such a tiny world, isn't it! :cool:

[Gnadenburg]

O The vast majority did only 3 or 4 years as Ansett F/O's prior to their rapid rise in status. And it shows (according to other pilots, who don't have a shady background.) ! :cool:

Josan Ronnie

There is considerable trollop in your post. Vast majority 3-4 year AN F/O's? I would suggest the vast majority have at least 5000 hours on type. And after flying A320's the Ansett way, should have considerable, adaptive ability to operate the toned down Airbus way.

Ansett F/O a shady background? You are joking right? Due to the inexperience levels in J*, I have been told it is this very 'shady' background that is welcomed.

[AnQrKa]

Ronnie – Your comments about Jetstar show you are clueless about the ex ansett staff in the company and the industry in general. Any airline pilot from Asia or Europe would wet themselves laughing at this one – “The vast majority did only 3 or 4 years as Ansett F/O's prior to their rapid rise in status”. Such comments show how narrowly you view the industry with purely an “Australian” perspective.

The ex ansett guys have airbus experience by the truckloads – even by Australian standards.

“One of the biggest problem with the Jet* pilots is the immaturity of their management /supervisory pilots.” – another ignorant bollocks statement but more important – what exactly is the “problem” you refer to. Have Jetstar been sending aeroplanes off the runway in BKK. Maybe a stick shaker or two as the SO swaps seats with the FO on approach with manual thrust. Or is the ground in Canberra a little bit too close for the GPWS. What problems are plaguing jetstar that QF have managed to resolve?

This QF high and mighty stuff is laughable – the number of ex ansett drivers who joined QF and have subsequently left in disgust is quite high. All my mates but one have pulled the pin and gone elsewhere – aviation does not start and finish with Qantas. It’s probably a great place to join out of GA where they can mould your brain but anyone with previous airline experience and a bit of nouse just laughs at the crap that goes on across the pacific. Most of your managers have spent their career sitting on their duff in a straight line barely scraping together a couple of sectors per month.

You should spend your time worrying about real issues instead of crying about the inevitable change that affects EVERYONE during their career.

[Ronnie Honker]

The ex-AN pilots might have lots of hours, but the base upon which they were built is not a solid one.
The majority of the Jet* supervisories did very little time as F/O's in Ansett, prior to putting the knife into their (senior) colleagues' backs, in order to get themselves a quick command.
Almost to a man, none of them could cut it when they were forced to go overseas following the collapse of Ansett, and are now back in Australia on salaries far less than their QF or VB counterparts.
They're NOW being paid what the company really knows they're worth - hence the $100 LESS than QF pilots to fly the A330.
Inferior products are always sold out at lower prices.
And to prove that correct 0they accepted the lower conditions.

Remember, not ALL pilots within Joke* are ex-AN Mafiosa - many have considerably more experience, and are able to see the joke that the Jet* upper pilots levels are.

[Gnadenburg]

What a load of rubbish Ronnie.

The former Impulse in QF guise, could never have been expanded quick enough and with the regulatory ease, without the significant AN component.
Dixon wanted the Ansett 320 operation all along. With it, he could have smashed Virgin Blue's aspirations for a bigger part of market share, within months of Ansett's collapse. If he got his original way, I imagine the Impulse drivers would be living a nice life on 717's in the West or something similar. The AN 320 operation would be the low cost J* operator, expanding as rapid as Dixon wanted, or, needed.

The ACTU wouldn't have it. The Administrators wouldn't have it and cabinet decided against QF dominance of the domestic market. And it would seem, quietly ensured Virgin Blue could ramp up as best it could over time, without interference from an aggressive QF, to meet a politically agreed % of market share.

In the end, Dixon got the Ansett 320 operation. For virtually nothing!

[AnQrKa]

Ronnie – gotcha. Right. Sorry, I didn’t realize that Jetstar was in a pickle because of events from 17 years ago. Such a logical position for you to take. I should have known.

"but the base upon which they were built is not a solid one"
But let me guess, being an SO then FO for QF is a solid foundation for being a skipper at QF.

[Ronnie Honker]

I didn’t realize that Jetstar was in a pickle because of events from 17 years ago.
It's a big wheel - and it keeps on turning! :p

[Dynasty Trash Hauler]

To most it was a small wheel - it ground to a halt years and years ago.

[relax737]

Hauler, the wheel is inversely proportional to the square of the brain that keeps it turning.
Big wheel, sm all brain ; bigger wheel smaller brain; big, big wheel, miniscule brain.

And It seems that there are stillsome at Qantas who fall for their own propaganda. Oh dear!
AnQrka, I agree. After years of flying overseas, seeing the standarde, and then seeing the former AN operators, they are a quality product.

[Ronnie Honker]

It's rather strange then that those "quaqlity products" weren't able to cut it overseas - China Airlines, Silk Air, Emirates.
Jet* has been the saving grace that has permitted those "quaqlity products" to retain a job flying, because almost to a man they are rejects from the jobs they tried to get overseas, hence the (miserable) salaries they are on now, and that they accepted, knowing their true worth.
Back now amongst their (mainly) own, the navel gazing has started again.
it was a small wheel - it ground to a halt years and years ago.You are dead right there Dynasty Trash man!

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Ronnie, why have you embarked upon this campaign of denigration?

It is not helping. Give it a rest. There are much bigger issues to confront than this petty sh1t.

[relax737]

Don't you just know when a man's argument is hollow??? It's when he goes for the typos because there is no substance to what he says.
CoB is quite right, but CoB some have nothing in their miserable lives but this, so they regurgitate it time and again. Let's not rehash the same old rubbish yet again Honks.

Qantas indeed has bigger fish to fry Ronnie. Better getinto the kitchen andon the job.

If you want some examples of rejects immediately post the debacle, let me know. That was when the seniorpilots left, advising alland sundry that they'd be back to take their jobs when ready. They thought they'd be welcomed with open arms but many couldn't cut the mustard; small fish in a big po nd syndrome.

[Jetsbest]

I wasn't sure what it meant so I've asked a few informal questions around the place. The answers surprised me because it appears that many, like me, have misunderstood what the court action is about. Maybe I still do too, but I'll try to explain how things are in my understanding.

- companies have not been allowed, in the past, to just 'rebadge' equipment and then give it to a new group of employees on discounted conditions,

- QF, in giving some of its own A330s (flown under a recognized pilot contract) to a new wholly-owned-subsidiary on varied conditions for the same type of flying, might be construed as doing exactly that, hence the court action,

- if the court action wins it does NOT mean that J*Int can't have the jets or that J* pilots can't do the flying,

- it DOES mean that any pilots flying those aircraft should be paid in accordance with the pre-established norm for the job,

- if the action is not successful then QF pilots were wrong I guess (yeah, not the first time I know!) and

- it doesn't mean it's not the truth either, but rather that QF has a bigger legal team!

So the cynics might disagree but it seems to me that, even if 'successful' (and it is a shame it's come to this), QF pilots will not be stealing J*Int flying but rather making a sensible effort to narrow the threatening wages gap... Better late than never, and who in J* can't honestly say they wouldn't prefer an instant +30% payrise for the new opportunity?

Counter-views welcome; avoid sledging please.

[ys120fz]

Quote Ronnnie Honker:

BTW, ys120fz, the miniscule amount of flying you did overseas doesn't qualify you to represent yourself to other Jet* pilots as anyhing other than what they know you as.
Aviation is such a tiny world, isn't it!

Ronnie my friend, you are obviously mistaken. Firstly I am not a Jet* pilot.

Secondly I currently fly international ops and have done for many years. Maybe I need to edit my profile to make it easier for you.

Relax 737 has it right.
The size of the wheel IS inversely proportional to square of the size of the the size of the brain that keeps it turning!!

[PT6]

You're correct, sadly, turbantime - the salary for LOCAL pilots is around Oz G.A. level (and even less). However, for experienced expatriates, the packages offered are on a par with - and in some cases, better than - that being offered in most other countries.
I can assure you, from 1st hand knowledge ;) that foreign pilots are being offered contracts that pay USD10.5k, per month.
Over time, the Indian pilots will also see their conditions improve - unless the Jet* pilots go across there, and offer to fly the new, shiney aircraft for less!
True what you all say Re India, however there is a serious shortage of drivers there and it will get worse. This may push up salaries. They have a 6 month embargo on changing companies at present (by legislation!); ie. you need to give 6 months notice before changing employers. Rapidly growing demand there and many new aircraft on order. This will be interesting to watch.

[ys120fz]

Quote Ronnnie Honker:
BTW, ys120fz, the miniscule amount of flying you did overseas doesn't qualify you to represent yourself to other Jet* pilots as anyhing other than what they know you as.
Aviation is such a tiny world, isn't it!

Ronnie my friend, you are obviously mistaken. Firstly I am not a Jet* pilot.
Secondly I currently fly international ops and have done for many years. Maybe I need to edit my profile to make it easier for you.

Again quote RH:

It's rather strange then that those "quaqlity products" weren't able to cut it overseas - China Airlines, Silk Air, Emirates.
Jet* has been the saving grace that has permitted those "quaqlity products" to retain a job flying, because almost to a man they are rejects from the jobs they tried to get overseas, hence the (miserable) salaries they are on now, and that they accepted, knowing their true worth.

I too have seen the quality of former AN guys and their standard is GOOD. I would think very few didn't cut it elsewhere, but many went home to work for a lot less in a country they enjoy living in, aren't treated poorly, and which is safe.



Relax 737 has it right.
The size of the wheel IS inversely proportional to square of the size of the the size of the brain that keeps it turning

Jetsbest, I agree with all you say but will the court. I bet QF management will be arguing the case that it is not economical for them to operate, and they will pull out completely and not replace the route with Jetstar if they lose. It will beinteresting to see how the court sees it.

I think, going back a while, that most of us saw it as Jet* not operating across the same routes as QF at the same time, but Dixon seems to be attempting to get around that by just replacing QF with Jet* on certain routes, Melbourne- Darwin being one.

In fact, I've booked to travel on that Qf flight in a few weeks, some time before Jet* is scheduled to start ops on the route, but was called last week and told it was cancelled and I would have to travel via Sydney. It seems the dirty tricks department may already be swinging into action.

Are any QF crew able to confirm the loads, generally, on the MEL-DRW route?

[J. Packer]

“QF pilots will not be stealing J*Int flying but rather making a sensible effort to narrow the threatening wages gap...” Well now, does that effort include volunteering for a 30% paycut (and several other worse conditions) to fly in the right seat of a JQ A320?

“Better late than never, and who in J* can't honestly say they wouldn't prefer an instant +30% payrise for the new opportunity?” Not aware of a JQ pilot ever gone as low as a QF pilot in accepting a +30% paycut. AIPA pilots care to comment?

[Keg]

Hmmm. Borg had a pretty good response to the crap espoused by Packer. Did Borg edit his comments out or did one of the Woomerii?

:rolleyes:

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

I joined the Hall of Shame apparently...

To summarise. It was probably a SO whose cherished dream of a window seat has been put back many years by the advent of J*.

Mr Packer. Every Jetstar pilot went at least that low when they accepted both the domestic(which no-one really blames them for) and the International (which everyone blames them for) deals. FACT.

[TineeTim]

Keg/TCOB,

I think you're both defending the indefensible. Packer has a point- Our S/O's who went to J* are no better than the J* guys going international. Neither group had a gun to their head and both are looking for 'promotions' regardless of the price. That's partly why I voted against the MOU. A promotion should mean a payrise. Full stop. End of story. It's got nothing to do with which seat you're in. If you accept a crap deal just to 'build up time,' you need a trip to the hall of mirrors. The same will be true if any a330 F/O or S/O goes to Jet* on the current conditions.

[Keg]

Actually, I agree Tim. I don't think our guys should drop pay to go to J*. If it's a new QF S/O in their first 18 months to two years then they will probably go across on equivalent conditions but anything beyond that is a poor choice by our guys. I'd say the same thing to them as I have to the J* pilots who said 'yes' to the EBA deal. It's a short sighted view that ultimately brings us all undone.

How about this for an idea though. One of our members on Qrewroom talked about taking a pay freeze to guarantee the J* positions on something close to our pay rates. We can extend that thought by taking a smaller pay freeze to pay for those who go across and ensure that they get a 'rate' that we (AIPA) think is reasonable. IE, we 'top up' the conditions to be what they should be. That way, we get to utilise the 7:20, our members get promotions (IE pay rises), we get a number of AIPA members across there (and perhaps get some seats on the JPC ( :E ) etc, etc. I'm spit balling here so happy to hear contrary points of view.

[Selac66]

Really - a lot of this to and fro is like Condaleeza Rice answering questions about Betty from Parramatta's water bill. Some connection with the big picture helps with perspective.

Qantas will never go under. This is certainly not a bean counter observation but rather a political one. The Dixon boogie man will come and go in the same way as successive governments flow past the public servants in Canberra. Those lucky enough to be card carrying Qantas pilots will, largely, survive the machinations of those trying to cash in on the legacy.

This is not to say that the Qantas chaps have any special skills - I'm referring to two characteristics of the Airline which can't be assailed by those who are financially inclined.

1. Qantas as Australian Icon

As long as there is a place for Bradman, Anzac and Vegemite, Qantas will exist. Just as British Airways, Thai, Air New Zealand and South African will survive. Do not underestimate the power of the average, ignorant aussie voter when it comes to supporting such tribal concepts as 'old, no crashes, Made in Australia and, increasingly, Peter Allen. Can you picture John Howard commenting on the 7:30 Report that Qantas' collapse was 'just business'.

2. Qantas as Strategic Asset

The Australian Government will always require an Australian controlled operator of aircraft to be on call (or commandeerable) for contingencies. This doesn't have to be Qantas of course but I'm not talking about tendering for defence contracts here. Some time in its future the airline will probably pass in and out of government hands - say when oil hits US$200 a barrel. Oh well life goes on, and the Masons of the Australian aviation industry will still be there.

So Qantas guys, when you start feeling pressure to operate for less - remember that you are part of a strategic asset which is supported by the majority of the Australian people. In the mean time you don't need to be messing about with Betty from Parramatta's plumbing.

[Sunfish]

Selec is spot on. Unfortunately there is one point you missed.

Qantas maintenance capability is also a strategic asset. By this I mean the complex network of workshops and capabilities needed to maintain an aircraft - including military aircraft. Once you lose that, you are effectively a client state like Iran or Iraq.

Australia found this out the hard way in World War Two. Try and overhaul aircraft landing gear without an aircraft quality plating shop.

[Jetsbest]

"AIPA pilots care to comment?" I'll comment for you.

I reckon most expect that all pilots should be able to evaluate each and every career opportunity on its merits. J* pilots have done just that recently so you'll have to let go a little (you're holdin' on too tight) and allow others to do the same now.

I don't envisage such choices will “include volunteering for a 30% paycut (and several other worse conditions) to fly in the right seat of a JQ A320?" but here's an example for you:

QF is about to close its Melbourne S/O base. These pilots already live there, all are fairly new to QF, all are junior and hence perhaps earning less than a J* F/O. The 'relocation offer' for transfer to Sydney has been made and some may view that it's not great when extrapolated to infnity. So, what to do? Those with the requisite experience may find it attractive to transfer, at least temporarily, to J* because they can then avoid relocating the family, avoid commuting to Sydney, get to the right seat for similar or better money, and maybe even get promotion faster. Factor into that what one pilot told me was about $10k per year in commuting expenses if they don't relocate (tickets, accommodation & extra time away from home) and any adverse gap narrows substantially for their circumstances. The 30% I referred to was the pay rise which J* pilots stand to make if the transfer of business case wins. Will anyone thank AIPA if that happens?

As for "Not aware of a JQ pilot ever gone as low as a QF pilot in accepting a +30% paycut", hooray for the J* pilots. Once again the comment is mis-directed but, hey, there seems a high likelihood that J* pilots have taken one on everyone else's behalf for the future.

In the end the same defence applies as has been recently expressed about the choices made by another group; It's not a great deal, but it's the best on offer for some. They should be allowed to take it if it works for them. Chill.

[B A Lert]

......2. Qantas as Strategic Asset
The Australian Government will always require an Australian controlled operator of aircraft to be on call (or commandeerable) for contingencies.....

Using foreign operators for Aust Govt purposes doesn't seem to be a problem for our people in Canberra who make the decisions. Look no further than the use of Air L:uxor for present Gulf support, British Airways to carry 'our Head of State' for the C'wealth Games in Melbourne, and the use of a foreign owned company for CoastWatch. Canberra is not interested in startegy, just cheap cheap cheap (except when it comes to their slaries and pensions.:yuk: :yuk: :yuk: )

If the Aust Govt did consider Qantas to be a strategic asset, why did it flog Qantas to the highest bidder? Not only that, why is the Govt idly standing by as Qantas busily sheds a lot of irreplaceble skills?

[ur2]

Has anyone heard how AIPA's appeal has gone, thought it was happening today ?

[Selac66]

B A Lert,

The emphasis is on strategic. When things are good you can use whomever you like to tote your stuff around, but a responsible government will have up its sleeve a contingency for those tough or sensitive times (or at least the impression of providing this).

You don't see it so much elsewhere in the West due to the circumstances of individual countries e.g. US - no need for civilian back up; European countries - part of NATO. Canada - see NATO, South African - Government airline; Air New Zealand - bailed out by government; UAE - don't need a strategic asset.

The cap on foreign ownership of Qantas sums it up.

Sunfish,

Time will tell with the heavy maintenace offshore agenda. A few hard phone calls from Canberra perhaps?. With the military civilianising their heavy maintenance the Australian government will be ensuring there is a homegrown stopgap. I think the loss of some jobs plus the threat of offshoring is the limit to GDs arsenal with heavy maintenance.

The boys can blink if they want but...

[ys120fz]

UR2, what did happen with the legal action. I haven't heard anyting of it.

Anybody know anything or is it that nobody wants to know anything....perhaps a loss for the union??

Hopefully not.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

It is still ongoing. Apparently nothing happens fast in the Federal Court.

[max autobrakes]

What was on the tails of those 717's
Was it a cockatoo or was it a cuckoo?