480 jobs go in Qantas closure

[qf 1]

dixon meets with unions tommorrow to lay out he's plan for the future of Heavy maint in Australia

[The masked goatrider]

"UNIONS have warned of a serious industrial confrontation with Qantas if it sends jobs offshore, action that could disrupt the Commonwealth Games.

Three hundred delegates marched to the company's Melbourne headquarters today and called for Qantas (qan.ASX:Quote,News) to rule out sending maintenance work to China and slashing 2500 Australian jobs.
Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union (AMWU) delegates from across Victoria, including some Qantas staff, protested loudly in front of the company's Melbourne headquarters for about 30 minutes today.

AMWU secretary Doug Cameron said Qantas chairman Geoff Dixon's response at a meeting with unions tomorrow would determine if industrial action would disrupt Commonwealth Games visitors.

After the protest Mr Cameron told the media that sending jobs to China would "no doubt" compromise Qantas' safety record.

"Why would you hand a 100-per-cent (no-fatality) record to someone else and put the Australian public in danger?" he said.


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He said the union would at the midday meeting tomorrow tell Qantas to put jobs and safety ahead of profit.
"If you are saying jobs are going to China, then you are in for a fight," he said.

Asked if the industrial action would disrupt the Commonwealth Games, Mr Cameron said it was up to Mr Dixon.

"If Qantas do announce jobs will go to China tomorrow, then a major campaign will ensue," Mr Cameron said.

"We don't want to disrupt the Australian flying public, we don't want to disrupt the Commonwealth Games, it will only be as a last resort.

"This is in Geoff Dixon's hands."

Mr Cameron would not be drawn on the nature of the industrial action.

Qantas chairwoman Margaret Jackson said last week the future of the 2500 engineering and maintenance jobs would be decided soon.

The company has threatened to shift the jobs offshore if it cannot cut costs, which it says are needed to make it competitive against specialist maintenance companies.

But Mr Cameron today said Qantas maintenance staff typically earned $45,000 a year and could not afford a cut in salary.

"It's short-termism at its worse, it's bad management," he said.

"We are hopeful that Qantas will do the right thing tomorrow."

"Qantas should be the spirit of Australia, not the spirit of China."

[Buster Hyman]

If he goes to stand on a tug, don't let him! (AIAF guys will know what I mean!):suspect:

[qf 1]

he would never dream of coming down onto the hanger floor he's a coward,he will only be meeting with union leaders to discuss he's plans

[Apophis]

in other words he will only meet with the people who do what they are told to do.

[Redstone]

He may have more intestinal fortitude than you give him credit for Qf 1.

[Turbo 5B]

A salary like that gives you much courage.

[Syd eng]

Perfect timing, Could any of these be passed onto the newspapers here in oz to help our case? Would need proof though wouldn't we?

[Shitsu_Tonka]

18 Wheeler,

How did you discover the problem? Or did someone in the cabin hear it?

[Turbo 5B]

Presentation screens have been set up in H271 in Sydney and management wont say for what reason except that they're not for a road show.
They also won't look you in the eye when you ask them.
One hour to go.

[inthefluffystuff]

Probably hard to tell for sure but the greasing looks a little DRY around certain points also, well guy's we are looking into a gun I think!!!!!

[Ascent]

QANTAS is to close its Sydney base with the loss of 480 jobs, saving $100 million.

More to come...

[Apophis]

Thanks ALAEA for such good service:(

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Are the 480 jobs 'lost' or moving to China?.

If the jobs go to China, my flights to the USA will be with AirNZ or United.

[Apophis]

correct already on the news.

[Buster Hyman]

I'm genuinely sorry for you guys that will be affected.

Just imagine how bad it would've been if Qantas was losing money!:suspect:

[Bad Adventures]

HOT OF THE PRESS

QANTAS announced today it was cutting up to 480 jobs by closing its heavy maintenance operations in Sydney, raising the prosect of severe disruption to next week's Commonwealth Games if unions follow through with threatened industrial action.

The airline said today the B747 maintenance operations would close in May and the decision follows a review of all its aircraft engineering operations.
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said the airline planned to achieve savings of about $100 million a year from restructuring all of its engineering operations, principally through consolidation, process improvements and more flexible work rules.

Union reaction has not yet been announced but leaders have threatened potentially crippling industrial action with just days to go before the Commonwealth Games.

Mr Dixon said the review would initially mean Qantas invested in, and retained, its wide-body heavy maintenance facilities in Australia.

"A longer term commitment to retaining the operations in Australia will depend on Qantas achieving competitive benchmarks with the larger global Maintenance Repair and Overhaul providers (MROs) now dominating world aviation.


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"Retaining three wide-body maintenance facilities in Australia is no longer viable under this scenario. We have one chance to make this work and we are determined to succeed."
The Federal Government has warned Qantas that it considers it strongly in the national interest for the heavy maintenance operations to remain in Australia.

Mr Dixon said Qantas had to be competitive in every area in which it invested as the company moved towards a cost base that could ensure profitable operations with an oil price above $US60 a barrel.

He said the closure of the Sydney base would result in the loss of about 480 jobs.

"However, through re-deployment the number of people who leave the company as a result of this decision could reduce to around 340."

Mr Dixon said the review at Qantas Engineering would mean:


Heavy maintenance for Qantas' Boeing 747 fleet being transferred from Sydney to the airline's base in Avalon, Victoria, with an increase in employment opportunities at Avalon.
Heavy maintenance for the B767 fleet to continue at the airline's new purpose-built facility in Brisbane, also with increased employment opportunities.
A review in the next six months of the airline's narrow-body aircraft heavy maintenance operations, now out at Tullamarine in Melbourne.
An investment of about $50 million in infrastructure and technology to aid the restructuring.
Qantas Engineering seeking third-party work within the region when the restructuring was complete.
A commitment to retain a comprehensive apprentice program for the training of future aviation engineers in Australia.
Mr Dixon said the decision to close the airline's Sydney heavy maintenance base, after more than 55 years of operation, was regretted, but necessary.
"We have severe space limitations at Sydney and the limitations will increase in future years," he said

"Following this decision, we will still have more than 2900 people employed in engineering in Sydney as well as almost 18,000 Sydney-based staff in other departments.

"We would need to vacate by 2009, or 2010 at the latest, even if the Sydney base had provided the most efficient outcome for Qantas.

[Chris Higgins]

Wait until the A-380 arrives; they'll have to re-open Sydney to even "heavier" maintenance. Especially with the Airbus history of scheduled and unscheduled maintenance.

[Fliegenmong]

Genuine sorrow for all those affected. Can't wait to hear the PM's response. :yuk:
Shame for you guys PM's brother didn't work in maintenance. :suspect:

[aveng]

Wait until the A-380 arrives; they'll have to re-open Sydney to even "heavier" maintenance. Especially with the Airbus history of scheduled and unscheduled maintenance


The latest news on the A380 is that ACS (aircraft customer services) hasn't been asked to bid for the A380 handling. Patricks have been approached!

Sorry to the base guy's - qantas has no idea of your value, especially with an aging jumbo fleet.

[hannibal lector]

well this is a surprise, we all just have to wait till they go through my beloved melbourne heavy maint, same result, i'd say
this is all about getting peoplt to work in greenfield sites, rather than saving money, or being competative, WAT A CROC.
the same rhetoric is always being bandied around, 'fuel costs', 'flexible workforce' blah blah blah blah

i have an idea
1 "lets relocate QCC1 in sydney to india"

pros- cost of living, labour market cheap, Darth Dixons' wage could be slashed in half, just a phone call away, maybe savings of 50 million a year

cons- ????? i dont think there is any

[fixa24]

Maybe now they should let SQ fly SYD-LAX....
QF (mis)management have certainly shown a lack of enthusiasim for keeping things australian.. but i'm sure the government wont let their airline become affected by competition..:ouch:
Of course it's gonna cost more in australia. we won't work for a bag of rice every fortnight. :}
and i know for a fact that AME pay is hardly bank breaking... how the hell can you live in sydney for $45k p.a?
Bad news guys. sorry to hear. but there is life outside of QF. i got out of forstaff after seeing the shenanigans going on at AV, and i haven't looked back.
Geoff's got a lot of explaining to do..:mad:

[Buster Hyman]

By keeping the maintenance in Oz, albeit under new conditions etc, QF have carefully avoided the "We kept SQ out & you send jobs offshore" argument. I don't think the Govt. have anywhere to go and nor would they, barely a tear was shed when "unionised" Ansett went to the wall....

[cartexchange]

dont let these jobs go to MEL, stick up for yourselves.
Dixon even stated that he did not anticipate any action from the maintenance workers! the blody hide!

[fixa24]

barely a tear was shed when "unionised" Ansett went to the wall....
Careful buster... thems fight'n words.:ouch:

[Sunfish]

Bitter sweet news. I'm sorry for the guys that are losing the jobs, but as I've said before, why use the most expensive real estate in the country to maintain aircraft?

I guess its good news for the people of Geelong. The next question is where is A380 maintenance going to go?

I predict that the PM's response will be along the lines of "Qantas is a commercial entity that must make its own commercial decisions.

P.S. From the tone of previous ALEA announcments, you will be told "this is a good outcome, it could have been far worse."

[Pass-A-Frozo]

QANTAS announced today it was cutting up to 480 jobs by closing its heavy maintenance operations in Sydney, raising the prosect of severe disruption to next week's Commonwealth Games if unions follow through with threatened industrial action.

The airline said today the B747 maintenance operations would close in May and the decision follows a review of all its aircraft engineering operations.
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said the airline planned to achieve savings of about $100 million a year from restructuring all of its engineering operations, principally through consolidation, process improvements and more flexible work rules.

Union reaction has not yet been announced but leaders have threatened potentially crippling industrial action with just days to go before the Commonwealth Games.

Mr Dixon said the review would initially mean Qantas invested in, and retained, its wide-body heavy maintenance facilities in Australia.

"A longer term commitment to retaining the operations in Australia will depend on Qantas achieving competitive benchmarks with the larger global Maintenance Repair and Overhaul providers (MROs) now dominating world aviation.

"Retaining three wide-body maintenance facilities in Australia is no longer viable under this scenario. We have one chance to make this work and we are determined to succeed."
The Federal Government has warned Qantas that it considers it strongly in the national interest for the heavy maintenance operations to remain in Australia.

Mr Dixon said Qantas had to be competitive in every area in which it invested as the company moved towards a cost base that could ensure profitable operations with an oil price above $US60 a barrel.

He said the closure of the Sydney base would result in the loss of about 480 jobs.

"However, through re-deployment the number of people who leave the company as a result of this decision could reduce to around 340."

Mr Dixon said the review at Qantas Engineering would mean:

Heavy maintenance for Qantas' Boeing 747 fleet being transferred from Sydney to the airline's base in Avalon, Victoria, with an increase in employment opportunities at Avalon.
Heavy maintenance for the B767 fleet to continue at the airline's new purpose-built facility in Brisbane, also with increased employment opportunities.
A review in the next six months of the airline's narrow-body aircraft heavy maintenance operations, now out at Tullamarine in Melbourne.
An investment of about $50 million in infrastructure and technology to aid the restructuring.
Qantas Engineering seeking third-party work within the region when the restructuring was complete.
A commitment to retain a comprehensive apprentice program for the training of future aviation engineers in Australia.
Mr Dixon said the decision to close the airline's Sydney heavy maintenance base, after more than 55 years of operation, was regretted, but necessary.
"We have severe space limitations at Sydney and the limitations will increase in future years," he said

"Following this decision, we will still have more than 2900 people employed in engineering in Sydney as well as almost 18,000 Sydney-based staff in other departments.

"We would need to vacate by 2009, or 2010 at the latest, even if the Sydney base had provided the most efficient outcome for Qantas.

[chockchucker]

According to the Q&A section on the QF intranet site regarding the Heavy Maintenance restructure, A380 heavy maintenance is will be done off-shore due to the low number of aicraft of this type in the fleet.


Nobody asked the question about where 787 heavy maintenance will be carried out. With at least 65 on the way, one could hardly argue that there won't be enough in the fleet to facilitate a heavy maintenance line.


Much sorrow for the guys in Sydney. Although there would be a few (with 30 or more years of service) eagerly awaiting a redundancy package I'd say. Every cloud has a silver lining for some. Interested to see that Brisbane has emerged unscathed. Are we to assume that they are operating at "worlds best practice"? Hasn't been evident in their turn times thus far. A lot of teething problems I guess.


So, now all eyes turn to the guys at Tullamarine. Project 221 has been revealed as outsourcing by stealth, and the 10 hour shift has, for the time being, been knocked on the head. You've got six months to make yourselves irreplaceable guys. Good luck. Just hope the QF management view you in the same light as they have the people at Mascot. Although, at least the management appear to be willing to keep maintenance on shore, for now.

[chockchucker]

" Just hope the QF management view you in the same light as they have the people at Mascot."


Should read, hope the QF management DON'T view you in the same light as they have the people in Mascot.


Nobody want's to shift to Avalon I know. However, the situation will hopefully not come to that.


Major changes are still to occur though. Where ever the maintenance is performed.

[Turbo 5B]

:mad: :mad: :mad: Well thanks Geoff and Keith for nothing you pack of slack *****.
Thanks for not sending our 747 maintenance overseas.
Instead you've sent it to a ******* labour hire firm in victoria set up by the ALAEA.
Redeploy my arse,more like resign and get a job with forstaff.:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Ultralights]

dont worry, just watched Dixonn on Channel 10 news say, that if the move to Avalon doesnt save money BY JULY 07!!!! then its off to china! for the Spirit of Asia!

[Ultralights]

Mr Howard mentioned something about QF haveing to seriously think about its Obligations to Australia and its customers and the consequences, if it moves it Maint to China.

[Skydrol_ise]

I can think of another way to add to redundancy packages
The $600 in ALAEA fees we pay each year for no representation by the UNION with employers, could be a cost saving for everyone :* :*

[Turbo 5B]

I said this this on another thread and i'll say it on this one...
Thanks Geoff, keith and co for nothing you pack of c(o)unts.
Thanks for giving our work to a labour hire company in victoria set up by the ALAEA.

[HotDog]

Maybe now they should let SQ fly SYD-LAX....
QF (mis)management have certainly shown a lack of enthusiasim for keeping things australian.. but i'm sure the government wont let their airline become affected by competition..:ouch:
Of course it's gonna cost more in australia. we won't work for a bag of rice every fortnight. :}
and i know for a fact that AME pay is hardly bank breaking... how the hell can you live in sydney for $45k p.a?
Bad news guys. sorry to hear. but there is life outside of QF. i got out of forstaff after seeing the shenanigans going on at AV, and i haven't looked back.
Geoff's got a lot of explaining to do..:mad:

numbskull writes:
"2004/05 financial year group certificate of $104,284 that's with 12 hr shifts 2 days then 2 nights, 38 hr week.It includes very little overtime.3 group 20/21 eng A/F licences.
I have no great gripe about our pay and conditions as I realise I would struggle to achieve the same unless I went overseas, but that is not the preferred option."

I am confused, who gets paid $45k p.a. only.:confused:

[Redstone]

numbskull writes:
"2004/05 financial year group certificate of $104,284 that's with 12 hr shifts 2 days then 2 nights, 38 hr week.It includes very little overtime.3 group 20/21 eng A/F licences.
I have no great gripe about our pay and conditions as I realise I would struggle to achieve the same unless I went overseas, but that is not the preferred option."
I am confused, who gets paid $45k p.a. only.:confused:


A non licensed person, I think you'll find Numbskull said he was an acting leading hand with all company license types.

[Skydrol_ise]

Hotdog, AMEs (non licensed engineers and also includes sheetmetal workers/component guys)
Are on different pay scales (and a different union, AMW from memory)
LAMEs are on a different pay scale and usually on 24 hour shifts etc, with a few license payments for various aircraft etc : LAMEs pay quite often doubles the AME pay.
To make it easier to understand, AMEs are a bit like First Officers and LAMEs are like Captains. We accept the different pay structures for Flight crew, although in the flight crew case the FOs are not necessarily less experienced, they just have a lower bidding number ;) ;)
Point is AMEs laid off in Sydney are unlikely to find a job in GA/Regional as usually LAMEs are sort after. Having to leave your home town after 20 years service is not a happy experience.
I'm curious how much in redundancy/relocation costs Red Rat is to pay for the closure of the Sydney operation ?
I figure for 20 years service we would be looking at 2-3 years pay for the average guy. Somewhere around 120 K or more average, would take the whole debacle to well over 4 million or so.
Still beats GA where when we get laid off we get SFA !!!!!:ok: :ok:

[domo]

qantas went to uk, china, south africa to employ enginners these people settled in sydney with their familys got morgages qantas no longer needs them sacked at 45 years of age in an industry with no future thanks qantas

qantas employed 550 apprentices where are they going to get jobs
better off being a plummer at least you get job portability

astra went bust qantas saved them via forstaff they now take the jobs off sydney maintenance thanks qantas

and they say enginners bitch all the time,woomera we are driven to dispare I wish emirates would buy the company

[hawks05]

Maybe now they should let SQ fly SYD-LAX....
QF (mis)management have certainly shown a lack of enthusiasim for keeping things australian.. but i'm sure the government wont let their airline become affected by competition..:ouch:
Of course it's gonna cost more in australia. we won't work for a bag of rice every fortnight. :}
and i know for a fact that AME pay is hardly bank breaking... how the hell can you live in sydney for $45k p.a?
Bad news guys. sorry to hear. but there is life outside of QF. i got out of forstaff after seeing the shenanigans going on at AV, and i haven't looked back.
Geoff's got a lot of explaining to do..:mad:

What shenanigans at forstaff AV, dont make statements unless you can explain.:{

[Redstone]

dont worry, just watched Dixonn on Channel 10 news say, that if the move to Avalon doesnt save money BY JULY 07!!!! then its off to china! for the Spirit of Asia!


July '07, that wouldn't happen to be when the government said it was going to revisit the Sing air syd lax thing is it?

[Apophis]

qantas went to uk, china, south africa to employ enginners these people settled in sydney with their familys got morgages qantas no longer needs them sacked at 45 years of age in an industry with no future thanks qantas
qantas employed 550 apprentices where are they going to get jobs
better off being a plummer at least you get job portability
astra went bust qantas saved them via forstaff they now take the jobs off sydney maintenance thanks qantas
and they say enginners bitch all the time,woomera we are driven to dispare I wish emirates would buy the company
Slight mistake ASTA was long dead by the time Forshaft appeared so really nothing to do with it apart from some of the parasites who ran ASTA have now sucked there way to the top at avalon again.
Now Qantas can threaten everyone at avalon with the we will go to China story for a year.

[Apophis]

[QUOTE=peterlongbeach]What shenanigans at forstaff AV, dont make statements unless you can explain.:{[/QUOTE
Probably refers to forstaff who can,t get pays and leaves right after years of operation the dirty little deals with the ALAEA and the placing of people in jobs they are not capable of doing crap training schemes that lead to no where and qantas not been able to plan there jobs and blaming eveyone but there system of work and prehaps the people smoking outside all day don,t see what really goes,s on.

[Buster Hyman]

fixa24, don't look for a fight that isn't there...re-read the whole sentence.:ok:

[Danny Crane]

If only there was another airline that offered business class on sectors other than SYD-MEL I would never fly Qantas again.

Bastards

Danny Crane.

[Syd eng]

So what's the go with Avalon? Will the guy that moves to Avalon remain a QANTAS employee like the guys that took supervision positions years ago or will most of them end up employees of Forstaff?

Another ? for someone who knows, Is the EBA for Forstaff employees with Forstaff or QANTAS? It is up for negotiation soon isn't it?

[qf 1]

forstaff forstaff forstaff forstaff

[Apophis]

So what's the go with Avalon? Will the guy that moves to Avalon remain a QANTAS employee like the guys that took supervision positions years ago or will most of them end up employees of Forstaff?

Another ? for someone who knows, Is the EBA for Forstaff employees with Forstaff or QANTAS? It is up for negotiation soon isn't it?
the eba is with forstaff a new one just passed and i would think you would be retrenched and rehired by forshaft if offered transfer to avalon but avalon faces the same fate in a year or less so dixon says if it does not work out for him.

[hawks05]

[quote=peterlongbeach]What shenanigans at forstaff AV, dont make statements unless you can explain.:{[/QUOTE
Probably refers to forstaff who can,t get pays and leaves right after years of operation the dirty little deals with the ALAEA and the placing of people in jobs they are not capable of doing crap training schemes that lead to no where and qantas not been able to plan there jobs and blaming eveyone but there system of work and prehaps the people smoking outside all day don,t see what really goes,s on. Dont blame the avalon work force for what happened today have a good look at the ALAEA, we are only trying to make a living like everyone else.And also if avalon is so bad why have we got a very good record on safety and getting a/c out on time. Its not the workforce that makes back door deals with the company. Good old ALAEA have your shot at them not the employees trying to feed their familys. This is not having a go at sydney but I do wish you all good luck, in what those employees do in the future.

[hawks05]

So what's the go with Avalon? Will the guy that moves to Avalon remain a QANTAS employee like the guys that took supervision positions years ago or will most of them end up employees of Forstaff?

Another ? for someone who knows, Is the EBA for Forstaff employees with Forstaff or QANTAS? It is up for negotiation soon isn't it?Yes we have an EBA due in June, it is a forstaff EBA, only problem is the ALAEA will not work with the AWU on this and the ALAEA have given away our right for industrial action till December 2007.Looks like another joke of an EBA coming up. Shame on the ALAEA

[domo]

Qantas Engineering - Questions and Answers


/noticias.info/ The following Question and Answers provide additional information on Qantas' decision to keep heavy maintenance in Australia.

What is behind the engineering review?

Qantas, with the assistance of its people, has undergone significant transformation in recent years, including engineering.

However, the unprecedented upheavals in global aviation in more recent years have seen much more accelerated outsourcing of engineering and maintenance by major airlines.

This has resulted in facilities being established in countries with significant scale and immediate cost advantage against 'in-house' operations like Qantas of 15 to 20 per cent.

This is not a position we can sustain without major change.

The high cost of fuel and increasingly competitive environment mean Qantas must continue to transform its business and move to a lower cost base in all areas of its business if it to prosper and grow.

Every area of Qantas Engineering is being reviewed.

With regard to wide body heavy maintenance, the review highlighted two viable options for meeting this challenge - move the work offshore or restructure our operations in Australia.

We chose to restructure in Australia - a decision that will require the closure of Qantas' Sydney heavy maintenance operations.

Why close down Sydney?

We cannot achieve the efficiencies we need if we continue to operate from three wide body heavy maintenance facilities (Sydney, Brisbane and Avalon).

It is not possible to remain in Sydney because there are severe space constraints, even for line and base maintenance. In fact, we have already had to move many engineering and maintenance functions out of Sydney because of space problems.

At Avalon, we have the space and the required skills and experience to do this work.

When will the changeover happen?

The Sydney Heavy Maintenance operation will start winding down immediately, and close on 31 May 2006. All of our Boeing 747 work will be transferred to Avalon by this date.

What will happen with A380 heavy maintenance?

Qantas Engineering is in the process of developing base maintenance facilities for the A380 in Sydney, but it is unlikely that A380 heavy maintenance will be undertaken in Australia.

Given the small A380 fleet, in the short to medium term, airlines will most likely look to form joint ventures or use independent providers.

What about the planned industrial action?

The Australian Workers Union and Australian Metal Workers Union have proposed work-to-rule industrial action over the next three months in relation to their EBA negotiations. We are not expecting any impact on our business or any inconvenience to our customers are a result of this proposed action.

If the situation changes, however, we have contingency plans to minimise any disruptions.

Will there be any effect on safety standards?

Qantas would never put safety at risk, regardless of where our engineering work is carried out.

Qantas has been using the Avalon operation for maintenance work since 1997.

All work undertaken at Avalon has been done, and will continue to be done, in accordance with regulatory requirements and with Qantas standards and specifications.

How many staff will lose their jobs?

We expect the net effect to be around 340.

There will still be more than 2,900 people employed in engineering in Sydney.

Our first step will be to call for expressions of interest, although it is inevitable there will be some compulsory redundancies.

We will be doing everything possible to mitigate the effects on our staff including offering redeployment to other maintenance areas - for example, there are currently job opportunities for some Sydney Heavy Maintenance staff in Brisbane.

What will happen to Sydney-based apprentices?

All apprentices will be retained and given the opportunity to finish their training. We will be holding positions in the Qantas Group for apprentices in Sydney heavy maintenance graduating between now and June.

We continue to be committed to an apprenticeship program as a way to ensure a skills base into the future.

What assistance is being giving to staff?

Comprehensive information packs have been given to each employee in Sydney.

The communication and transition program we have in place for staff includes on-site counsellors, outplacement programs, and specialist advice on financial planning, careers, retirement and business seminars.



found this on the net

[Redstone]

Anyone with an A330 license will probably be able to transfer to base maint, not sure under what conditions though, looks like the gloves are off and the knuckle dusters are on.

[Syd eng]

It could also be the reason the A330 training for base maint. has been slow. They knew that they will have a few more in base soon from heavy.

A330 A checks are to start in base soon.
Did any apprentices get Heavy as a final section? Don't know of any getting base, a few got shoved into cabin.

This could be a run of changes that could see QANTAS not actually have any employees in a few years time. A shelf company that leases some planes.

[Angle of Attack]

I'm not an engineer but reading these posts it seems a classic divide and conquer within the engineering labour force, just like whats happening in every area of QF (except the middle managers and executives of course!) :yuk:
The sooner that the Engineer, Flight Attendant, and Pilot unions (the coal hard face that keeps QF operating) join together and form a massive conglomerate that can cripple this management with a pin drop, the better we all will be. And for those that say "Oh you cant do that you'll lose your jobs, its economic reality we need to change", well I'd rather go down fighting than being a frog put in boiling water and the heat slowly increasing..... Just another symptom of this right wing ultra conservative country we are turning into with the Eyebrow in power.....:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Turbo 5B]

There are 11 Qantas positions available at avalon. These consist of Lame Mech,Lame Avionics,Tech specialist structures and a workshop coordinator.
Any one else will be employed by forstaff.
Staff at H/m in general don't begrudge forstaff employees having a job, however the work they have was set up with the assistance of H/M syd lames and coordinated by the then president (or secretary) of the ALAEAand who is now a very snr manager of forstaff I believe. The work was overflow work...reconfigs etc that could not be done in Sydney because of the extra work that the Strut mod program had caused.
Our jobs have been stolen. The culprits are obvious.
Don't try and tell me that Avv is more efficient than Sydney. The only support that Avv gives Sydney is to send our tooling back up when we need it.
The Manager of Heavy Maintenance should be held accountable for letting Sydney get shafted like this. Productivity increases could have been made relatively easily with out attacking jobs and wages and conditions.
He selected, and allowed below standard local management to run Heavy Sydney for the last five years. he didn't allow the new boys to have a chance. Lean Sigma is half complete. Opportunities for cross skilling have been missed. 20% is nothing. If the chinese are only 20% cheaper - cost wise they must be super bludgers. We have spent the last 12 months doing **** all half the time because of a lack of workshop support. they kept allowing tyhe workshop blokes to leave with packages.
We have been set up to fail so that Keith can make Avv and Bne look good.
They still don't work well but we got the bullet.
Thanks Keith

[Redstone]

So what are the "relocation" non-options Turbo? Have they given a number for all or is it all a bit vague?

[Skydrol_ise]

Lets try another scenario for the forum viewers.
Qantas hire overseas pilots (say from an asian airline) to fly all routes operated by Qantas on half the salaries.
The thought of this would not be accepted by the travelling public or government and would lead to an uproar :ooh: :ooh:
Yet the fact that this has now occurred in the Qanatas engineering world, in spite of the initial comments on the news; will in time be accepted by the Australian and indeed international flying public.
The engineering practices of an airline are what make an airline successful.
I'm sure you have all viewed the Aircrash TV shows and seen that there is no margin for maintenance errors. Usually the culture of an engineering facility is governed by the management attitudes.
As flight crew you should consider where and how well your maintenance is performed.

[chockchucker]

"Staff at H/m in general don't begrudge forstaff employees having a job, however the work they have was set up with the assistance of H/M syd lames and coordinated by the then president (or secretary) of the ALAEAand who is now a very snr manager of forstaff I believe. The work was overflow work...reconfigs etc that could not be done in Sydney because of the extra work that the Strut mod program had caused."


Does this sound earily familiar to anyone working at Tullamarine? Melbourne has been whittled down from three lines to one on the premise of being able to return an aircraft to the fleet. Yet more and more "overflow" work is being sent to Avalon. First, it was disposal 737's. Now there are even core fleet 737-400's being sent to Avalon for C checks.


My concern is this, if there was a capacity problem at Melbourne, why didn't they hire more people to handle the work in house? Because, I believe, certain people have even more grand designs for Avalon. All this talk about third party work. Yet the management of Melbourne could not even secure the Jetstar 320 overnight work that is currently carried out in the old Ansett hangers by AAES.



As I have said previously, project 221 is outsourcing by stealth, and I fear more bad news maybe around the corner for all you chaps at Tullamarine. No matter how well you do churning out aircraft. Better to lump you all into one boat and then beat you all with the one big stick is perhaps the ultimate aim of the powers that be.



That said, Brisbane seems to have escaped without a scratch. I'll ask again, are they really operating at worlds best practise up there? From what I hear, they are still having a few problems getting aircraft out on time. Happy to be corrected.

[Turbo 5B]

So what are the "relocation" non-options Turbo? Have they given a number for all or is it all a bit vague?
They have said that in 2 weeks they will know how many people from ACS and Components want to go, this will give them an idea of how many spaces will be available. Apart from the 11 positions at Avv The ACS option is the only one that you can keep your licence payments if you are a Lame. If you apply for a workshop you go back to being an AME. If you are currnetly a snr Lame it's anyones guess.
Bne has 70 positions for AMEs of all trades and Aircraft workers.Chock Chucker, Bne has all sorts of troubles and they are currently working to move back to the (shock horror dont mention the S word) Sydney way because it works better.
Something else that pisses me off is that our redundancy quotes were printed out on th 13th of Feb. One month those pricks have been sitting and waiting to cut out throats.

ps to go from H/M Line 1 on the 7x2 roster as a level 3 lame to Component O/Haul or something similar as a level 12 AME (if thats what you're employed at) on a 5x1 shift is to drop from 65k to 50K, as a level 9 you drop from 100k to 50k.
That is attacking the man, not playing the ball.

[Redstone]

There are some really good guys up in Brisvegas, I have a feeling that most of the "teething" trouble has more to do with local management and their ways, have also heard as you say Turbo that management are slowly being brought round in their way of thinking.

So I wonder what the management types and seccondment sloths will do? Shifted sideways while the front line troops all charge the machine gun nests no doubt.

[Turbo 5B]

Well, theres a whole wake up call for those blokes.
Dr Phil in charge of Bne is only changing because of the concerted efforts of ex line 1 staff up there to try and make the place safe.

I would also like to point out that the SNR PRODUCTION MANAGER OF SYDNEY HEAVY MAINTENANCE DID NOT BOTHER TO TURN UP TO TELL HIS STAFF THAT THEY HAD GOT THE BULLET AT THE PRESENTATION TODAY.
THANKS DAVE.(I hope the sun still rise tomorrow for everyone)

[Turbo 5B]

Anyone know why the Snr Manager of Sydney h/M couldn't turn up to tell the guys that they were about to be sacked?
He drove up 20 mins after the event.

[Redstone]

Probably busy sending resumes off to KFC and Bunnings

[BHMvictim]

Heavy maintenance for Qantas' Boeing 747 fleet being transferred from Sydney to the airline's base in Avalon, Victoria, with an increase in employment opportunities at Avalon.

Contract labour on the sly!!!! This is NOTHING to boast about Mr Dixon.
Yeah yeah... you kept jobs on shore.... with forstaff. Nice one.

I will never forget the meeting we had 8 odd years ago, when QF management told us about their plans to set up an "overflow" facility at the old ASTA site.

One of the sheeties got up and got stuck into these fat eletist managers and his words were something along the lines of "YOU F:mad:G TELL US NOW THAT IT'S AN OVERFLOW FACILITY... GIVE IT FIVE YEARS AND YOU B:mad:DS WILL BE SENDING ALL OUR WORK THERE"!

The response from management.... "That is not our intention" ... the old "get out" clause for when they DO send all Sydneys work south.

50+ Years of Heavy maintenance in Sydney. A wealth of knowledge and skills..... and it's all out the door so that those at the top can continue their justification of over inflated fat sallaries and renumeration.

All I can say is sorry to hear about the outcome for you Sydney guys. Good luck to those we don't see up here in Brissy.

[BHMvictim]

Nobody asked the question about where 787 heavy maintenance will be carried out. With at least 65 on the way, one could hardly argue that there won't be enough in the fleet to facilitate a heavy maintenance line.

That question was asked in Brisbane. Dr Phil says that we will definately be looking to take on 787 maintenance. I doubt Qantas will grant such work to Brisbane. Most new aircraft types come with a maintanance package nowdays I believe?

[Turbo 5B]

Bunnings.....there's a career I hadn't thought of.

[BHMvictim]

dont worry, just watched Dixonn on Channel 10 news say, that if the move to Avalon doesnt save money BY JULY 07!!!! then its off to china! for the Spirit of Asia!

The move to Avalon won't save a cent! If anything, it will cost more to fix all the stuff ups made down there!

Oops.... no more Sydney.... who will be there to fix Avalons botched checks now?

[BHMvictim]

well well.... who should show up to put the final few kicks into those who have been cut down.

numbskull writes:
"2004/05 financial year group certificate of $104,284 that's with 12 hr shifts 2 days then 2 nights, 38 hr week.It includes very little overtime.3 group 20/21 eng A/F licences.
I have no great gripe about our pay and conditions as I realise I would struggle to achieve the same unless I went overseas, but that is not the preferred option."
I am confused, who gets paid $45k p.a. only.:confused:

There is no point in clarifying. If one had paid attention to what was being said throught the engineering threads, one would know who gets $100K+ and who get $45K.

[BHMvictim]

That said, Brisbane seems to have escaped without a scratch. I'll ask again, are they really operating at worlds best practise up there? From what I hear, they are still having a few problems getting aircraft out on time. Happy to be corrected.
Chockchucker...will get the figures tomorow. We are getting the aircraft out on time, without too many problems. :ok:

Bne has all sorts of troubles and they are currently working to move back to the (shock horror dont mention the S word) Sydney way because it works better.

....could that have something to do with 55 years of Heavy Maintenance experience????
We had only been saying that the "BNE way" of running the check (aka initiative of the AirNZ ring-ins) was ridiculous from day 1.

It seems that there are many changes for the sake of change.... rather than changes for the sake of efficiency.

I have a feeling that most of the "teething" trouble has more to do with local management and their ways
:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: Spot on Redstone!!!!!

[Redstone]

Well, it certainly is a sad day. Good luck to all the guys and gals in line 1, I tips me hat to youse. You produce the best product and are the "nursery" for the best engineers.

[Wirraway]

Fri "Melbourne Age"

Sydney's pain is Avalon's gain as more work flies in
By Jane Holroyd
March 10, 2006

LINDSAY Fox has described the Qantas decision to shift its major Boeing 747 maintenance operations to Avalon Airport as a coup for Victoria and the Geelong community.

Speaking to The Age from Vietnam, the trucking magnate played down the benefits to his company Linfox, which bought the Avalon site in 1997.

"Forget about Linfox. The impact for Victoria and for Geelong is fantastic," Mr Fox said, pointing to job gains at the airport near Geelong.

Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said yesterday that while the Sydney closure would cut 480 jobs from its maintenance workforce, redeployment could reduce the number to about 340 if workers transferred.

"However, workplace efficiencies recently negotiated with the workforce and Avalon will enable us to start immediately to achieve the productive scale necessary to compete with offshore options," he said.

Qantas has had a maintenance base at Avalon for seven years, with most work concentrated on the airline's fleet of six Boeing 747-300 aircraft. But the Sydney base is larger, catering for a fleet of 30 newer 747-400 class aircraft.

"Historically speaking we have always been long-term planners," Mr Fox said.

"For years Avalon was a sleeping giant and now it is the 10th-largest passenger terminal in Australia."

Mr Fox's son David, who is managing director of Linfox's airport division, said the company had been talking to Qantas for months about expanding its Avalon operations.

He said he learnt of the decision yesterday.

Avalon general manager Tim Anderson said it was a brilliant outcome resulting from hard work.

"We are very aware of the enormous cost pressures airlines are facing and we have worked very hard to provide them with high quality services at a competitive arrangement," Mr Anderson said, pointing to the airport's partnership with Qantas offshoot Jetstar.

Jetstar, which now has about 13 per cent of the domestic air passenger market, has been running flights from Avalon since mid-2004 and made a before-tax profit of $27.7 million in the half-year to December 2005. Experts have estimated Avalon is now worth 10 times what Linfox paid for it, believed to be about $10 million.

The Geelong business community yesterday was excited about the Qantas announcement. Chamber of Commerce executive director Lawrie Miller said 450 skilled maintenance workers had lost their jobs when Avalon's former operator, AeroSpace Technologies of Australia Aircraft Services, closed in 1996.

Despite Geoff Dixon emphasising a preference to trans- fer Sydney staff to Avalon, Mr Miller expressed hope that jobs would be created in Geelong.

But a redeployment of Sydney workers would also benefit the area, he said. "They could make a lot of money by selling their houses (in Sydney) and I think they would find the lifestyle compares more than favourably," he said.

====================================================
Fri "Melbourne Age"

Threat to Qantas Melbourne jobs
By Stephen Moynihan
March 10, 2006

CLOUD hangs over the future of hundreds of Qantas employees at Tullamarine after the airline yesterday launched a six-month review into its local maintenance operation.

The Tullamarine announcement came on the same day that Qantas confirmed it would axe 480 jobs from its 747 heavy maintenance plant in Sydney, as part of a massive reorganisation and cost-cutting operation.

But the airline has backed away from the threat of immediately transferring up to 2500 jobs offshore, and has moved to allay union concerns by expanding maintenance operations at Avalon, near Geelong, and Brisbane.

As a result of the Sydney plant cuts at the end of May, about 70 new jobs will be created at the Avalon 747 maintenance operation — but 60 of these will be engaged through a labour hire firm and will not be employed as Qantas staff.

The airline says it hopes to reduce redundancies in Sydney through transfers to Avalon and Brisbane.

Unions described Qantas' decision as "bittersweet" and have said there will be no immediate industrial action to interfere with the Commonwealth Games.

The review at Tullamarine is part of a plan to slash $100 million a year in costs across its engineering operations. The heavy maintenance facility of the airline's narrow-body fleet at Tullamarine will be reviewed.

More than 1100 workers are employed by Qantas at Tullamarine, with 450 of them working in the heavy maintenance on the narrow-body plane fleet. The airline has hinted that maintenance on the airline's 737 fleet could be shifted to New Zealand.

Australian Workers Union secretary Bill Shorten said the situation at Tullamarine would be monitored closely. He said the "jury is still out" on whether job cuts were likely. "I think that Qantas has flagged a review with no guarantees at the end of the review about what the outcome is," Mr Shorten said.

"We're trying to do a wages agreement and Qantas want concessions and by the same token they then say there's no certainty you'll have your job anyway, so I suspect there's as much mood to negotiate good redundancies packages."

Conditions for workers at Tullamarine were "superior" to those at Avalon, Mr Shorten said.

Engineers at Avalon build up their overtime pay in a "bank" from which they are paid when they are stood down during quiet periods.

Overtime pay has become a crucial battleground between maintenance unions and Qantas in current enterprise bargaining negotiations.

Unions claim the cut in overtime provisions Qantas is seeking will result in a 30 per cent pay cut.

Mr Shorten said the union wanted to know what benchmarks the airline was trying to reach as it aimed to reduce costs and increase profits.

"When it comes to the senior executive wages and conditions, they benchmark themselves against New York and London," Mr Shorten said.

Although 480 jobs will be cut, about 2900 engineering staff will be retained at Sydney and all current apprentices will be kept on.

Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said the airline had to be competitive in every area and ensure profitable operations at a time when oil prices were expected to rise above US$60 a barrel.

Mr Dixon said the airline had received no inducements from any governments to keep maintenance works in Australia. While he said it was a regrettable decision, there was very little room to expand at Sydney Airport, which has been home to the facility for 55 years.

Qantas executive general manager of engineering David Cox told The Age the transfer of heavy maintenance work was a boon for Victoria. "This is a major opportunity for Avalon and obviously it will be up around the 800 people. That's a big engineering business in Australia," Mr Cox said. "It's got good facilities, it's got room to expand if we need to and that's why it's been chosen to do this work for us."

Avalon has already been used for heavy maintenance work, as well as for projects to refit the Qantas fleet.

"We could pretty well move in and get on well with life and that's one of the things that made it attractive," Mr Cox said.

The airline is striving to meet costs savings of between 15 and 20 per cent with an in-depth review set to begin in June next year and be finalised in June 2008.

If savings are not made, the airline may reconsider a move to send maintenance to Asia.

No decision has been made on the heavy maintenance works for the new 787 Dreamliner and the giant Airbus A380, but it looks likely that these will undergo major services off shore.

Heavy maintenance for the airline's fleet of A330s is done overseas but the airline has hinted at the possibility of it being transferred to Australia if cost savings are made.

Mr Cox said productivity and on-time performance at Avalon was "very good" and the enterprise agreement with workers was one of the positive factors for its selection.

With MATHEW MURPHY, SCOTT ROCHFORD

============================================================ ==

[Turbo 5B]

Sydney never had a chance. Those Bastards setus up to fail..gave us no support and now they are pretending that they are ******* heros for giving the geelong economy a boost.
**** the lot of them.:mad: :mad: :mad:

[qf 1]

how long do you think avalon will last,thay have trouble getting and retaing people and the cost of ferrying flights down there for the whole 747 fleet will not help there issue in relation to the price of fuel or crews to ferry these flights,so i don't think avalon is a long term option it is only a stepping stone for dixon to china as it takes some heat out of the whole political mess for now

[nomorecatering]

Do the QF staff who transfer to Forestaff in Avalon retain staff travel, long service etc.

Arthur Baird would be spinning in his grave. Qantas has become one of the worlds best airlines, if not the best...and safest, partly beacause of the professionalism, dedication of the engineering staff over the last 75 years.

This is only the start. EOC, stores, MA, MB buildings are to go, along with the simulator centre and crew training buildings. The entire jetbase is set to become a 60,000 sqm shopping complex (think westfields) rather than terminal space as is shown in the Sydney Airport Master Plan.

[Mr Qantas]

This entire thread seems to have been sabataged by whingers and troublemakers and I bet I know where there come from. At the end of the day most of us still got a job and the work is still in the country so I dont see what the problem is. If it wasnt for the alaea then the work would have gone away years ago. Just face the facts we cant keep the hangers in Sydney for another 55 years cause the terminel needs to expand and thats where we get our profit from passengers flying. Mr Dixon seems to have done the right thing by us all and stop complaining about it and get on with life.

[dirty deeds]

MR QF,
Well done, you sound like the small minority of self serving people in this industry that runion it for eveyone else.

[Apophis]

This entire thread seems to have been sabataged by whingers and troublemakers and I bet I know where there come from. At the end of the day most of us still got a job and the work is still in the country so I dont see what the problem is. If it wasnt for the alaea then the work would have gone away years ago. Just face the facts we cant keep the hangers in Sydney for another 55 years cause the terminel needs to expand and thats where we get our profit from passengers flying. Mr Dixon seems to have done the right thing by us all and stop complaining about it and get on with life.
So you aren,t under threat of your job going so screw everyone else you say even the people you work with what a nice person you are.

[flyagain1day]

Mr Qantas, The s??t is heading your way I would think. Start ducking mate.

[dirty deeds]

He dosn't need to duck, its coming out of his mouth!

[Buster Hyman]

a coup for Victoria

The impact for Victoria and for Geelong is fantastic

As a Victorian, this doesn't seem like something to be proud of or worth boasting about. It's not "fantastic" news for Victorians, it's "fantastic" for your bank balance Lindsay.:hmm:

[mahatmacoat]

Victorians didn't set up the Avalon site. it was done by a self serving union Federal Secretary from NSW who jumped ship and now manages the site on behalf of Qantas. Thanks WM. The party will soon be over.

[HotDog]

I can remember doing a stint in Avalon in the late fifties, line maintenance on L1049 training flights. Stayed in a pub in Geelong, freezing cold, don't envy those guys having to re settle there!

[INCOGNIT0]

What shenanigans at forstaff AV
OK,lets elaborate on the shenanigans that has happened at AVV,around a year ago CASA were investigating a claim in writing from an AME that he witnessed an engine change on a -400 which after the installation was supposedly finalised and paperwork signed (by QF) that a unlicensed avionics AME whilst finalising his wiring found loose engine mount bolts which appeared to be shank bound, after reporting this to the then engine leading hand and asked ”is this normal” an inspection was performed and found the mount bolts were in the wrong locations and were indeed shank bound. When the next shift arrived and the QF LAME who signed off the cards after obviously not checking the work upon completion was confronted and he then told the out going LAME that he would “sort it out”.

It was “sorted out” by them swapping the bolts around whilst the engine WASN’T supported, the bolts WEREN’T changed as they were damaged and NO paperwork was raised for the job carried out.

CASA were explicitly told of this and hence an investigation was carried out and after many long months and the approval very nearly pulled Qantas management in AVV finally made it go away (in their words) after spinning some cock and bull story which eventually satisfied CASA.

These shenanigans happen only too frequently and it was only on the honesty and concern of a Forstaff AME that this incident came to light.

It is a disgrace that the wealth of experience will now go in SYD and Q’s maintenance record now hangs "in the balance" nice one Dicko

You were going real well up to the point where I had to replace some innapropriate language with the words "in the balance", if they do not convey your thoughts you may edit them but not in the manner previously. W

[wing surfer]

the meeting on thursday was bitter sweet for me, i saw all the people i had worked for, with and around. i have worked across all 3 shifts within heavy Maintenance, i have alot of friends that are there.

This is all i will say about my suitation, but i can say that the heavy Maint Manger's baby Avv is being closely looked at and the amount a deferals that they put out after a D-check, and now that H/M syd will be closed on 31 may it will be looked at even more closely.

servicing are more disappointed in that Syd will be going because of the extra work that comes from Avv.

makes you wonder ??????? how good this little baby is

the word has gone out to all other depts " you are not safe and you need to justify every thing that you do"

i believe that Syd H/M will not be getting the last D-check as per the Maint plan as it is meant to finish on the day the Line 1 will be closing.

the next point makes you think the 3 lines down at Avv are all fill for the next 12 months, WHERE WILL THE OVER FLOW GO?

When Keith Clarke said the work will not be going off shore ........... some how i do not believe him, and after every thing that has happened would you !!!!!!

[BHMvictim]

This entire thread seems to have been sabataged by whingers and troublemakers and I bet I know where there come from. At the end of the day most of us still got a job and the work is still in the country so I dont see what the problem is. If it wasnt for the alaea then the work would have gone away years ago. Just face the facts we cant keep the hangers in Sydney for another 55 years cause the terminel needs to expand and thats where we get our profit from passengers flying. Mr Dixon seems to have done the right thing by us all and stop complaining about it and get on with life.

Here we go! The stirrers have come out to put the boot in!

[QFinsider]

As a driver of well maintained machinery, I am disgusted by this company. As a little boy I dreamed of flying them, playing my own little part of the story.

I'm sure most in engineering feel the same. It is sad to say I have nothing in common with the management of our company except I breathe air. Economic units have replaced people and their Statement of financial performance doesn't have a column to represent the intangible which is the skill of the person doing the work, be they engineer or pilot. I felt comfortable going to work knowing that my aircraft is maintained to the highest standard possible, not to a price...

All those who have gone before us in the technical side of the industry know what this sort of management generates in the long term...

[Apophis]

the meeting on thursday was bitter sweet for me, i saw all the people i had worked for, with and around. i have worked across all 3 shifts within heavy Maintenance, i have alot of friends that are there.

This is all i will say about my suitation, but i can say that the heavy Maint Manger's baby Avv is being closely looked at and the amount a deferals that they put out after a D-check, and now that H/M syd will be closed on 31 may it will be looked at even more closely.

servicing are more disappointed in that Syd will be going because of the extra work that comes from Avv.

makes you wonder ??????? how good this little baby is

the word has gone out to all other depts " you are not safe and you need to justify every thing that you do"

i believe that Syd H/M will not be getting the last D-check as per the Maint plan as it is meant to finish on the day the Line 1 will be closing.

the next point makes you think the 3 lines down at Avv are all fill for the next 12 months, WHERE WILL THE OVER FLOW GO?

When Keith Clarke said the work will not be going off shore ........... some how i do not believe him, and after every thing that has happened would you !!!!!!
They will probably get money from goverment to put a tee pee on hangar 1 they are already renting it with an aircraft nosed in.

[the shaman]

It is hard to find words that describe my feelings at the moment; I feel ripped off and decieved by QF Engineering management , was it poor judgement on their behalf, inoncompetence , willful deception..... what .......?? the a/holes have known for months that L1 was doomed.

Whatever, the fact of the matter is that 2 very immature maintenance facilities ie BNE / AVV have now been made the backbone of QF enineering in Australia and thats a real worry. Don't forget AVV was supposedly a temp facility set up in 1997 for 'a 22 month reconfig and then we are gone' .. yeah right .. without SYD HM to back them up they will struggle big time. Previous anecdotes posted about engine mount bolts being thread bound , utilities workers hosing out MEC's, disengaging tail jack when jacking aircraft etc. scare the crap out of me and are probably accurate...

All remaing QF engineering workers be on guard for your livliehoods , do not take anything for granted - brothers in Tulla note this as you are next on the hit list.....

the shaman

[Bumpfoh]

Filo Beddo couldn't handle Chainsaw at SDT so they found him a position at Syd Heavy.:E

Straight out of Music with Murray's (think the Wiggles!) handbook he outsourced Syd Heavy and closed it down!:mad:

Bravo Dave, I'm sure Coxy is well pleased with your efforts.:yuk:

No doubt you don't have to concern yourself with finding a new job or telling the wife and kids to pack up and move to Dodge or Geelong. :(

Thoughts and best wishes for those affected.:ok:

[the shaman]

Editorial in todays SMH says it all about double standards.

Job cuts versus open skies

Qantas is comfortably schizophrenic. A protectionist when guarding revenue, it becomes a free trader when reducing costs. Maintenance jobs in Australia must go so Qantas can be internationally competitive. Yet competition apparently does not mean foreign carriers should get more access to Qantas's routes. The double standard is good for profits, and bad for travellers.

Yesterday it was Qantas the free marketeer. No clumps of angel-faced kids still calling Australia home, just the chief executive, Geoff Dixon, setting out the cold realities of the international market. Foreign maintenance facilities have a 15 to 20 per cent cost advantage. So Qantas will close heavy maintenance in Sydney, concentrating operations in Melbourne and Brisbane. The move will save $100 million a year, but cost an estimated net 340 jobs. It is a significant loss for Sydney, but it sounded almost modest after a union scare campaign predicting Qantas would export as many as 2500 jobs to China. The unions did their members no service by such alarmist speculation. Qantas says it could indeed save more money by taking heavy maintenance overseas, but believes the proposed changes will be enough to make its operations competitive "while preserving a much-desired skill base". There was, however, the warning that if the airline did not make the expected savings, it would look at alternatives - presumably overseas.

The loss of 340 skilled jobs would be keenly felt whatever company wielded the axe. It is all the keener at a business which so shamelessly markets itself by appealing to our national feeling. However, the loss of jobs at Qantas is echoed at less visible workplaces across the country as the Australian economy meshes with the wider world. Australia could resist such change, but the battle would be futile, and would be fought at the expense of the consumer. As yesterday's employment figures remind us, this is a two-way trade; despite cutbacks such as those at Qantas, the global economy is delivering sustained prosperity, with more Australians than ever in work and historically low levels of jobless. The international aviation market, in which Qantas must operate, is more red ink than blue sky; too many planes chasing too little business amid rising costs. Yet Qantas continues to be profitable, and cannot be denied the right to compete at its best, whether that means offshore cabin crews or rationalising maintenance at home.

The Government, of course, is quite happy for such free-market orthodoxy to hold sway in the workplace, but strangely protectionist when it comes to the skies, particularly those over the Pacific. After deliberating for most of last year on whether to admit Singapore Airlines to the Australia-US route, the Government last month decided to do precisely nothing. The protected position of Qantas would continue, and travellers would go on paying high fares. The Transport Minister, Warren Truss, claimed to have research showing that more competition would have almost no effect. A few weeks later, the same minister is defending the Qantas maintenance shake-up because "Qantas must strive to remain competitive". Yes, and the best way to make Qantas more competitive is to improve the competition - starting with trans-Pacific services.

[Ultralights]

sadly being an EX QF employee from approx 6 yrs ago, i am disgusted and insulted at whats going on there... i made the sacrifices,amid record profits, as a result of their blatent lying... all for nothing....

but none of this will increase revenues..... or the share price... or thier return on invested capital which is required for actually making a profit. i still cant believe Dixon doesnt understand Revenues create profits, not just cost cutting alone...

[numbskull]

You're right QFcainer.

Syd heavy maint days have been numbered for a while.There simply isn't eneough room at Mascot to do all the heavy maint and it does make sense to consolidate all the heavy 747 maint in one place-AVV. I know that they don't have the wealth of experience(sometimes it shows) that Syd heavy does but few other places around the world would.

It's still a shock when it happens, my condolences to those directly affected.

I believe that VR is being offered to to Syd Base,SDT and SIT. I think (hope!!) that the 340 net redundancies will made up of volunteers from all areas.(especially from long serving LAMES in superviser positions. This would allow those that are left to move into new positions of authority for a number of people and inject some fresh blood.

I also wonder who is now going to pay for the stocking and running of the tool crib as it supports the whole base yet comes out of heavy's budget? Also what about all their tooling? Base maint use a lot of their heavy maint tooling from time to time. Is the tooling to remain in Sydney or sent to AVV and hamstring Syd Base's ability to carry out work and make them less effective?

I believe the purpose of all this is not to send the work overseas but simply move people off QF wages bill, set them up on new greenfields sites and employed by someone else at cheaper rates. Mel heavy will be next and they will have succesfully transferred all their heavy maint to greenfield sites or labour hire organisations.

Line maint won't escape unscathed either. The A380 will either go to Patricks (who I believe are looking after SIA) or there will be no extra payment for the 380 licence.

They will try and do the same with the 787 with Jetstar engineers looking after them.What they accept (if anything)to work on the 787 will be interesting.

There will be no heavy maint on these Aircraft in Australia.

As another thread on this site has posed- has there there been a paradigm shift in aviation- I believe so!!

[Sunfish]

I have to ask the obvious question; what if maintenance costs increase as a result of this movement?

You see the savings in sydney may not all be credited to engineering's accounts. You can bet that he costs (redundancy etc) will be debited.

Then it will be a great experiment to see if what some of you are saying is true or not. We will see if the great professionalism of Qantas engineeering staff in Sydney is what has kept the airline flying or whether a bunch of unskilled Avalonians, working for peanuts, can do the same thing.

Its not going to be pretty to watch.

[soldier of fortune]

can some one clarify whats happening
1.has vr been offered to areas of line maint in syd or australia wide .ie mel.bne cns.etc etc.
2.will syd hm staff have to reapply for the vacant positions via white company notices-or will every one have a chance to move.
3.how many expressions of interest are there in these other area's for lame's from hm to fill.
any more info on this
regards SOF

[Turbo 5B]

VRs have only been offered to ACS(base main,cabin int, etc) and Components in eoc. SIT SDT not included.
If you came from heavy they want A330 Licenced Lames..17 in all.
227 to go from Heavy
8 wanted in Avv, none in BNE,
Thats a lot of skill out the door.
Good one Geoff.You ****wit.:mad: :mad: :mad:

[the shaman]

as of friday arvo there were 30 EOI's from component maint personnel and about 6 from ACS. This will open some positions for HM engineers who are prepared to redeploy and accept positions in salary range from $45 k to $65k per annum. Not much but a life boat for nyone who is desperate.. good luck to all..

[hoss]

To my engineer mates you may find the thread on 'Qantas Security how embarrasing' of interest.

I should have given it a better title to let you guys know whats been going on.

Best wishes

[soldier of fortune]

i do belive sdt will have vr offered -at this stage 5 to 6 employees are looking at taking vr -but there is reluctance to replace them at this stage due to the introduction of the no lame preflt latter this year.although i heard that the 743 will replace the a330 on some trunk dom routes-so if you have this lic you might have a chance to redploy-
then sdt will under go its own restucture. what this means for numbers there is any bodies guess.
to all the guys and gals in phase check at h245 -i worked there many years ago and it gave me a good solid background before going to line-
good luck to you all in the future.

[fixa24]

numbskull writes:
"2004/05 financial year group certificate of $104,284 that's with 12 hr shifts 2 days then 2 nights, 38 hr week.It includes very little overtime.3 group 20/21 eng A/F licences.
I have no great gripe about our pay and conditions as I realise I would struggle to achieve the same unless I went overseas, but that is not the preferred option."
I am confused, who gets paid $45k p.a. only.:confused:

I think you'll find an AME will be paid around $45k with a little O/T...

fixa24, don't look for a fight that isn't there...re-read the whole sentence.:ok:

not looking for a fight, just expressing an opinion.

What shenanigans at forstaff AV, dont make statements unless you can explain.:{
I've said before, on other threads, the skill level at forstaff is very low. there's a lot of overseas workers there who appear to be taken at their word that they have aircraft trade qualifications. One person i know who was a refugee who "lost " their trade papers... another who swore he was an avionics AME who didn't even know what a chapter 20 was, and couldn't cut a loom tyrap without cutting several wires.. Grease monkeys who continually make MAJOR mistakes and nothing happens. :oh: the tools who are determined to become a LAME at all costs, stabbing each other for courses, only doing work that will suit their SOE ( oh i need another 5 hours in Autopilot, can someone else do the lav sensors? :mad: )..i could go on all day.
I didn't reply to this thread to start a "Lets bag the hell out of forstaff", god knows that's a thread on its own (probably wouldn't last long though :ouch: ), just to send my commiserations to the QF employees whose lives have been changed by the greed and lack of respect shown to them by Geoff and co..

[BHMvictim]

the tools who are determined to become a LAME at all costs, stabbing each other for courses, only doing work that will suit their SOE ( oh i need another 5 hours in Autopilot, can someone else do the lav sensors?

This crap goes on everywhere. It went on in Sydney.....doesnt go in in Brisbane because the kiwi C^%%%^^^%%$%$$$NTS that run our joint refuse to put AMEs on courses so there is no point trying.

..... they destroyed one Aussie airline, now they are infiltrating Qantas.

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

If anyone thinks that Dixon's appetite for his bonuses and exorbitant wage will be satiated after supposedly moving 747 HM to Avalon are kidding themslves. It is not going to stay onshore for long. I have it on good authority that QF have someone as I speak asking MROs around the world (SIA included) for bids on doing QF 747 D Checks. Funny thing is this person's name isn't listed on QF's telephone directory so one can only assume he isn't directly employed by QF. I beleive the supposed move to Avalon is only a smokescreen to keep the pollies in Canberra and the average punter at bay until this all blows over and is forgotten. Mark my words - MEL HM is next, then all domestic OPS (no man pushbacks).

[Redstone]

Anyone know if Avv is still (attempting) to recruit o/s? Wonder if Wally will throw a lifeline to his old HM Line 1 work mates.

[soldier of fortune]

to the bug eyed

its proberly very true that qantas are looking to offload the 744 d chks to an os mro. but lets read between the lines.
those who go to avv are pissing in the wind. -in 3 to 7 years max as the 744 start to be replaced with a new type. like the 772 or 773 .the is little or no chance that qf will have have anything other than basic line maint up to b chk level with c and d chks out sourced.
all the hangers dowm there are just tempory tin sheds once the work dies down they qf will abondon it just like they did at syd.
note the new types like 787- they require a c chk only every 3 years and a d chk every 12 years - the aircraft may only have 1 d chk in its life. why invest $$$ in infrastruture to suport them.
as for bne there is a good chance in the future that qantas will off load that facility to boeing or work out some partnership with boeing to carry out mro level maint -taking in the fact that RAAF needs a330 mrt and b737 wedgetail awac maint to be carried out -if anything bne hm will survive but as to what guise is anybodys guess.
i wonder now if anz engineering are going to bid for the qf 737 hm-now that they have secured JAL 747 hm work -something they said not long ago they were going to abandon and shut their hm
sorry about spelling
sof

[Sunfish]

AS i've said before, the trouble with outsourcing is that you lose control of your costs very quickly. If for example, there are three or four heavy maintenance organisations in China, you can bet that once you have retired the last of your maintenance staff, your maintenance costs will start to rise.

The reason for this is simple. It takes time and costs a lot of money to establish a maintenance base. Your costs will simply rise to the costs of doing it yourself, plus the interest component on borrowing the funds to establish your own maintenance base.

To put it another way, there is an implicit assumption that anywhere else is always going to be cheaper than Australia. I do not think that this assumption will stand the test of time.

However it will last long enough for the present Qantas Board to pass on the problem to the next lot.

[Skydrol_ise]

Its funny how the government are always screaming about skill levels in Australia etc, yet now we see a substantial closure of not just HM, but the training that this provided to future apprentices.

[wing surfer]

If anyone thinks that Dixon's appetite for his bonuses and exorbitant wage will be satiated after supposedly moving 747 HM to Avalon are kidding themslves. It is not going to stay onshore for long. I have it on good authority that QF have someone as I speak asking MROs around the world (SIA included) for bids on doing QF 747 D Checks. Funny thing is this person's name isn't listed on QF's telephone directory so one can only assume he isn't directly employed by QF. I beleive the supposed move to Avalon is only a smokescreen to keep the pollies in Canberra and the average punter at bay until this all blows over and is forgotten. Mark my words - MEL HM is next, then all domestic OPS (no man pushbacks).


whats the bet that VH-OJO will be the first of the off - shore work, this will becoming at you before the closure of the H/M syd hangar

[magoo31]

Here's an interesting bit of info I got from a mate in QCC sydney. While GD sacks ames/lames, Q & R have a bloke on contract on $150 K a year writing procedures we could do in-house. At the moment I believe he's working from home cause he's not feeling well. Wonder if the brains trust at the ALAEA know about this. Oh and by the way, he's a mate of the manager up there.
Something smells like :mad: to me.

[Apophis]

the whole place stinks.

[Redstone]

Is he a professional engineer Magoo?

[B A Lert]

..... I have it on good authority that QF have someone as I speak asking MROs around the world (SIA included) for bids on doing QF 747 D Checks. Funny thing is this person's name isn't listed on QF's telephone directory so one can only assume he isn't directly employed by QF.......

OK Bungeyed...what IS his name as there are quite a few people not in the phone book?

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

Well he was a good friend of Eve in the "Garden of Eden" while at the same time he was the "son of Richard".

[wing surfer]

under the pretence of lack of capacity no doubt.


QF cainer,

go to the top of the class.

I found out today 3rd floor is of limits S-AB 2 to pretty much all engineering personnal at the moment, including the new startard and quotation group.

there is still a closed door policy arounfd the area stand by for more to come........

[the shaman]

I heard today that a Base Maint crew came across a team of guys from Boeing late one night recently in H245 being shown thru the hangar , they were taking notes , and rough measurements. They were part of the Boeing 'Goldcare' team.. whatever that is... can anyone shed more light on this...

line 1 guys hold your heads high..

[Bumpfoh]

My understanding of "goldcare" is that the purchaser receives a package with the aircraft that includes maintenance. To what level that maintenance goes to requires some further input from those in the know.:suspect:


Bandit.
Nice cryptic work with the individual in question, hopefully he's not Scottish!:ok:

[Redstone]

It's going to be harder and harder for ACS to exist with no support, no tooling, no "spare parts" and no benchmark. Anyone know if there is going to be any fitting shop/hoses and tubes/fiberglass/paint shop/tool crib etc...... support left?

[domo]

the shops are staying redstone but very reduced and 5 day dayshift this will be kept for a while but i imagin that as we go forward they will be looked at again out of 120 sheeties only 48 are being kept

[soldier of fortune]

whats the feeling among the guys at h245 -are many looking at avv -how many positions available at bne hm-what sort of future job prospects have the guys been thinking about outside of avaition;
-r the bankstown suport shops affected by this-
does the loss of hm syd include production planning and suporting admin staff.

i supose next question is : after tulla will there be an overall look -restructure -at line maint ops (acs)

[qf 1]

looks like a lot of the guys have had it with aviation,time for a career change,where outsourcing is not a threat

[Apophis]

the shops are staying redstone but very reduced and 5 day dayshift this will be kept for a while but i imagin that as we go forward they will be looked at again out of 120 sheeties only 48 are being kept
Which 48 thats the question whats the plan who stays who goes.

[Bumpfoh]

I'm sure Fat Kev is salivating at the thought of expanding his empire even further by taking on the required side shops into his ACS business.:eek:

With this level of support he will no doubt tell "M" that there is no need to have MEL carry out A330 maintenance when Base can do it all in SYD.:yuk:

It's like an over-fed pihrana circling for an extra feed just because it can!

Once again best wishes to those affected in Heavy.:ok:

[qf 1]

didn't take servicing long to jump into our graves,they where trying out this morning what was the mininum amount of people required to get a 744 into h245.
Thanks for the support F*CKWITS,my services are now avialable to HR when it comes time to break you CANTS,I'll be the one waving in the Bus when Qantas hire me to break the back of the ALAEA.CCCAAANNNTTTSSS!!!!!!

[qf 1]

PS:To mangemant,to get in contact with me ,send me a personal msg through PPrune i would be more than happy to assist you.That means you Oldmeadow

[Apophis]

never expect support from people you work with in the end they are all barstards if there is a way to screw someone apart from themselves they will and thats a fact and in QF even more so.
sad and sorry but true.

[Woomera]

QF1. Judging by your last couple of posts, it looks like you're "not in a fit state to PPRuNe" at the moment.:suspect:

Take a couple of days off to recover;)

Woomera (Eastern States)