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ex_matelot
8th Mar 2006, 11:18
Scotland and Wales were granted full independance and were onwards treated by the English Govt as foreign nations...what would be the outcome? Could they survive?

Feel free to include Cornwall in that lot also!

Edited to remove the 2nd Scotland!

colmac747
8th Mar 2006, 11:25
Two Scotland's?:confused:

tall and tasty
8th Mar 2006, 11:27
onwards treated by the English Govt as foreign nationswell would they be part of the EU or have to go through the routes to get there like other countries recently joined?

I think they could, Scotland has enough economy etc to stand and Wales has encouraged corporate companies to re locate there to improve economy.

TnT

ex_matelot
8th Mar 2006, 11:31
What would happen wrt armed forces etc?Would we have to donate a percentage of ours?

Is it ever feasable?

lasernigel
8th Mar 2006, 11:38
Go for it we'd get rid of half the cabinet and probably have lower taxes.:ok:

tony draper
8th Mar 2006, 11:38
Nah, they would just rely on the French to defend em like they've alus done.
:rolleyes:

ORAC
8th Mar 2006, 11:39
Scotland, probably, though they´d have to reduce their expenditure a lot, not much oil left even if they got it. Wales, I doubt it, not much industry, poor geographic location, not much agriculture. Most EU infrastructure funds now heading towards eastern europe. Not impossible, but it would be very tough.

Taildragger55
8th Mar 2006, 11:43
What would happen?
If they followed the example of us Paddies they would:
1) Make an unholy mess of their economies for the next fifty years, then.
2) Manage to panhandle a few quid from the Eu for some new infrastructure.
3) Get up of their arses and start getting serious about their economics.
No reason why you could not share armies and stuff still.

phnuff
8th Mar 2006, 11:45
Scotland would only survive if the rest of the world sent regular parcels of Mars bars for them to fry

Wyler
8th Mar 2006, 12:14
Great idea, speaking as someone who actively campaigns for an English Parliament. Does not have to be all or nothing though. I would think a 'Federal' approach to defence would be sensible as well as Law & Order (when we get some). But I would definitely support separation at most other levels.

Onan the Clumsy
8th Mar 2006, 12:14
I thought Scotland WAS a separate country :confused:

Honey Trucker
8th Mar 2006, 12:18
Income from North Sea oil, while in decline, would still be a major source of income for an independant Scotland. For the next 7-10 years it would provide an income of between 3-7 billion pounds. For a population of 5 million that isn't bad. That sort of income coupled with an economy based on Euro's (which would make sense - there far less opposition to the Euro noth of the border than in England) would allow for an explosive economic growth that could be unsustainable after 10-15 years. The economy would have to be very tightly regulated to prevent that. Similar to Ireland, who have a Euro based economy and English speaking population, Scotland could profit from non-EU investment.

The next largest export that an independant Scotland would have would be water and electricity. The Scottish climate and geography would allow for resevoirs to be constructed (using the oil revenues for example) and a large expansion of the Hydro-Electric schemes. In the short term this would provide employment, and in the longer term income and cheap energy for Scots. England is currently, and likely to in the near future, suffer from long term drought. I think it was in the late 1990's that Yorkshire Water was importing trainloads of water from Scotland throuout a summer season.

The infrastructure in the central belt and up the East coast of Scotland is good, with a good raod and rail network. It has a well educated population, and given the increase in income is likely to become more so.

Defence: If this was based on a split from United Kingdom forces, Scotland could take it's share and join NATO or a common European force. If the economy has been well managed then an increase in defence spending to prevent jealous Englishmen from illegally moving across Hadrians Wall maybe required. :p
The most likely required spending on defence would be maintaining a Scottish Navy and Air Force to protect whatever mineral rights Scotland would have in the North Sea and West of Shetland.

If a small country with a harsher climate and more difficult logistical environment, such as Norway, can mange it, why can't Scotland?

Windy Militant
8th Mar 2006, 12:47
I was some what sceptical about the Welsh assembly just another layer of beaurocracy I thought. However I have noticed quite an improvment in the general infrastructure when I go home periodically to vist my Mum.
Anyway once QuinetiQ sell off the range at Aberporth for Holiday Homes we'll be able to exploit the Cardigan Bay Gas reserves with no fear of accidentally shooting down the drilling rigs. There's still lots of coal under ground and Oh Yes we'll start charging the Scousers and the Brummies full whack for their water. Memo to self must remember to fit a valve to the new gas Main from Milford Haven, some where near Offa's Dyke!
It just gets better and better! :p

teeteringhead
8th Mar 2006, 13:12
And on present representation, wouldn't the Engflish parliament have a large Tory majority.......

Biggles Flies Undone
8th Mar 2006, 13:22
For the next 7-10 years it would provide an income of between 3-7 billion pounds.
Good value for money if that means we can get rid of all the bloody Scots in the English Parliament! :ok: ;)

G-CPTN
8th Mar 2006, 13:35
The next largest export that an independant Scotland would have would be water and electricity. The Scottish climate and geography would allow for resevoirs to be constructed (using the oil revenues for example) and a large expansion of the Hydro-Electric schemes. In the short term this would provide employment, and in the longer term income and cheap energy for Scots. England is currently, and likely to in the near future, suffer from long term drought. I think it was in the late 1990's that Yorkshire Water was importing trainloads of water from Scotland throuout a summer season.
Point of order:- It was Northumbrian Water (and water from Northumberland) that baled-out the Yorkshire folk. We may be north of Watford, but we are south of the Scottish Border (and some are NORTH of Hadrian's Wall).

an increase in defence spending to prevent jealous Englishmen from illegally moving across Hadrians Wall maybe required. :p

Movement across Hadrian's Wall is still free of all taxes, let and hindrance. There's many a mile to go (on the East Coast) before you reach Scotland, in fact the distance from the Tyne to the Tweed (that's the River Tyne that runs through Newcastle to Tynemouth, rather than the River Tyne that meets the North Sea just north of Dunbar).


Scotland HAD it's own Army Regiments, that could feasibly be re-established. Air Force and Navy slightly more complex, though bases do exist and could readily be commisioned for service.

Rushton
8th Mar 2006, 13:45
If it means getting that awful Carole Smiley, with her excruciating accent, off our TV screens then I'm all for it.

And an English Parliament - great. No Golden Brown. No Charles 'I'll just have a small one' Kennedy.

Rebuild Hadrian's Wall - top it off with electric fence. Them up North can keep the god forsaken bit of land between the wall and the border.

No complicated flag that is always hung upside down. Just a simple red cross.

Strewth gone into jingoistic overload.

radeng
8th Mar 2006, 13:56
There's a lot of 'hidden' expenses to think about if you take Scotland or Wales and make them independent.
Funding is needed for:
Civil Aviation Agency of some sort
ATC
Maritime Agency
Fisheries protection
Coastguard
Met Agency
International representation at ICAO/IMO/ISO/ITU/CISPR/ETSI/CENELEC/CEN/CEPT/EUROCAE, possibly UIC and multiple other standards bodies that allow only governmental participation - but you need this representation or your industry is disadvantaged
A Radio Administration Agency for comms and for broadcast - you need to liaise with the rest of the UK to avoid interference
Forensic science facilities
Embassies abroad to provide protection for your citizens - not that it appears the UK's FCO does a very good job for Brits - and foreign service representation at EU and UN
An immigration service
A taxation service
A national treasury/bank
And doubtless a whole load of things that I haven't thought of.....

acbus1
8th Mar 2006, 13:59
Would this full independence mean no more TV presenters with the accents?

Hey! Lets do it! :ok:

Honey Trucker
8th Mar 2006, 14:03
G-CPTN, I distinctly remember an item on Reporting Scotland about the water train heading for Yorkshire. I have a friend who is a train driver and worked those trains.

radeng, if Norway can do it, why can't Scotland?

The English might get rid of Scots out of the English parliament, but they will still be stuck with plenty of other wasters and leeches.

ex_matelot
8th Mar 2006, 14:21
Just learned that there is a small island/fort in the English channel called Sealand.You can actually obtain a Sealand passport for it because the millionaire owner declared it a republic!!Apparently the SBS have mounted several 'raids' over the years to try and take it back!!

http://www.sealandgov.com/

No bullshit..its gen!!!

G-CPTN
8th Mar 2006, 15:16
G-CPTN, I distinctly remember an item on Reporting Scotland about the water train heading for Yorkshire. I have a friend who is a train driver and worked those trains.

Apologies! I didn't realise that the Yorkies were two-timing us. We sent ours part-way by river (oh yes, we can!) and the rest by road tankers. The river lark discharges Kielder Water into the Tyne, and then pumped from Wylam up over the hill into the Wear. From there-onwards I'm uncertain of how they fiddle it.

RAC/OPS
8th Mar 2006, 19:38
No problem with Scottish oil. Mr Bush and his poodle would go in there on the pretext of looking for WMD and blow the place apart.

tilewood
8th Mar 2006, 19:57
Scotland for the Scots, Wales for the Welsh, Islamonazis back to Islamia,
and all the other freeloaders back to Freeloadia.

Then we English ( remember us? ) can shut the door, light the fire and put our feet up and relax. The same feeling you get when you finally say goodbye to uninvited guests who have outstayed their welcome, and you get your home back.

I know ...... it's so un-PC, it's wonderful!! ;)

2R
8th Mar 2006, 20:13
The problems start when the English realize how much of England is owned By Scots.Try buying freehold in London and you will find out that the originals owners came south with James 1 and the land has been passed on through the clans since then.:} :} :}

The Trolls' Troll
9th Mar 2006, 02:27
"We English (remember us)."
Yes, we Scots do remember you when you were more than capable of promoting and defending the interests of those islands. Your position as leader was unchallenged. But now we're not so sure that you're up to the job. You're getting old and lazy. You even say so yourself.
You go on to say that it is a desirable situation to "shut the door, light the fire and put up your feet and relax."
This maybe accounts for the readiness of England to pass the onerous task of Government and foreign policy to Europe and the Americans, like a lazy old dog that's had it's day and is ready to hand over the leadership of the pack.
But this laziness and selfishness has had dire consequences for Scotland, in that one of, if not the most important asset, namely the seas, of that damp grey outpost, have been thoughtlessly traded to the upstart, ungrateful European Union. The cap-in-hand, deferential manner of the English establishment towards this collection of defeated nations, is such that one would be forgiven for thinking that THEY HAD CONQUERED the British Isles.
We want those seas back. They are the birthright of every Scot and their many descendants scattered around the globe. The sea is part of Scotland, a very important part, and you gave it away. Unforgivable. A Scottish Navy and Airforce is essential.If you can't be bothered, we can.
As for "uninvited guests". Time you had a read at the history books. You asked us to join you.We didn't ask to join you. Remember you never conquered Scotland or if you did it was just for the briefest of periods and you were never able to hold the country. Never. You never inflicted a decisive defeat on the Scots,and never will.That is why Scotland, it's flag and name are still there, and known and respected throughout the world, and this from a tiny nation. It's a miracle, and you should be proud to have such a distinguished and doughty partner. Tear yourself away from your comfortable fireside and stand up to those arrogant Dagos, Huns and Franks.
If you can't do it. We'll do it ourselves.

Buster Hyman
9th Mar 2006, 02:40
What if they just privatised Scotland & Wales?

Arm out the window
9th Mar 2006, 02:58
Oh, the poor old English - only ever wanted to stay by the fire and have a nice cup of tea ... just ducked across to America, India, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc etc for a jolly little picnic and forgot to go home!

The Trolls' Troll
9th Mar 2006, 03:46
That was when the English (aided and abetted by the Scots, Scots-Irish, Irish and Welsh) were young and vigorous, in the past. This is about now.

Wingswinger
9th Mar 2006, 07:06
It would be a disaster for both Scotland and Wales. Sensible Scots and Welsh know which side their bread is buttered on; that is why the greatest export of both countries is their people. There are around 5 million people in Scotland but something like 30 million Scots or people of undoubted Scottish descent living world-wide. It would not surprise me to find that the number of ex-patriate Welsh people and their descendants is similar.

English nationalists would do well to read a good and unbaised history of the British Empire such as the one written by Niall Ferguson. You would learn that the British Empire, although started as a purely English enterprise, was in fact largely forged by Scotsmen, Welshmen and Irishmen. We Celts have a fine nose for where the money is!

MagnusP
9th Mar 2006, 07:58
Scotland and Wales were granted full independance and were onwards treated by the English Govt as foreign nations...what would be the outcome?
What English government? You may not have noticed, but there isn't one. And who would "grant" independence? It simply takes agreement between the parties to the Acts of Union to dissolve the union, and then both parties would become independent.

The Trolls' Troll
9th Mar 2006, 10:04
WingSwinger says "It"(Independence) will be a disaster for Scotland and Wales"
Oh yes? Seems like a disaster staying with the Union, as our hard-won sovereignty, rights, privileges and laws,lands and seas are sacrificed to appease this beastly monster of a police state that grows by the day, ever greedier, ever more sinister, over the North Sea. And for what benefit? As a free trade zone, there has been no benefit. The citizens of the UK were told that this was going to be a free trade area. A total lie. This is a police state headed by an unelected Mafia. Free trade seems to be the last thing in their post-Hitlerian, latter -day Holy Roman Empire minds.
Enough. Time to up sticks and off, or re- negotiate favourable terms such as those obtained by Norway and Israel. The trade we like. The rest you can keep. The world's a small place now.

radeng
10th Mar 2006, 07:49
Honey Trucker,

I'm not saying that they can't, just that they need to remember that they have to fund all those things - and do it after the oil runs out.