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View Full Version : Our service may be crap but you'll face conviction if you don't use it...


BlooMoo
8th Mar 2006, 09:27
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4783282.stm

BM:suspect:

Paterbrat
8th Mar 2006, 09:33
One guesse that the message might also be although the service is crap unless you use it you will be worse off. And that not using it for simple recreation is not a good enough reason.

Or at least that might be one interpretation. If it makes sense though in this day and age then this is completely incorrect logic.

terryJones
8th Mar 2006, 14:47
It's all well and good for some jumped up prat to put these laws into place, but when the school starts educating the kids PROPERLY, and keeping quality records, they can have a say in the matter. More to the point, do they not realize that holidays during the school holiday period are more expensive than at random times throughout the year. Ok on travel firms making offers, but my step daughter cannot afford to trot off on a holiday abroad with 3 kids.
Two of my step daughter's children attend a school in South Benfleet, Essex. They have accused the lad of absence on a couple of occasions when in fact he was present. The one time there was ample proof, as he was in an exam...
The teacher in charge of media studies has been lax enough in her task to allow very little course work to be done in the last year, and is now insisting that all the pupils take the exam. The lad has said he has no interest in the topic, and would sooner spend the time and effort learning Mathematics to follow his chosen career. In the event of Matt NOT attending they have threatened a bill in excess of 70£. I have told the daughter to ask the school governors if they are aware of the wasted funds putting the entire class in for an exam that none are prepared for or even interested in.
The need for work on the Mathematics is again due to the school employing a teacher who was not up to the task.(Her contract has not been renewed this year) The daughters youngest, a 14 year old, had no idea of the concept of Multiply, Divide, Add and Subtract as the order in which to carry out maths processes, and when I told her about 'My Dear Aunt Sally' as an 'aide memoir' it seemed the teacher had no idea of what the child was referring to. Again, at the age of 14 I would imagine she should be capable of simple operations with fractions, but she still thinks that 1/6 is bigger than 1/2. I will not mention the quality of her English, suffice it to say there is no 't' in water or matter, and think about things is Fink and Fings. When I mentioned this last year to her, the reply astounded me. You all know the response don't you, "That's how the teachers talk"
I can see why they did away with the eleven plus. It would have bought to light the miserable state of our education system now.
RANT OFF

acbus1
8th Mar 2006, 15:44
A neighbour was, only recently, telling me how his kids are achieving excellent exam results at school. He was enthusing about the value of a good education.

I suggested that there'd be reason for his satisfaction if the exams were of a decent standard. Based upon his reaction to that statement, I didn't think it wise to reveal my opinion that his kids show no signs whatsoever of having received a good (or even mediocre) education.

A great many kids go to school in order to satisfy the legal requirement. Going through the motions. Nice to see where my Council Tax is going. :*

Grainger
8th Mar 2006, 15:58
'My Dear Aunt Sally' as an 'aide memoir' :yuk: sounds horribly like learning by rote instead of by understanding and doing. No wonder she can't tell 1/6 from 1/2.

PaperTiger
8th Mar 2006, 16:21
No wonder she can't tell 1/6 from 1/2.School board seems to have trouble with the calendar too:The authority was concerned about the girls' poor attendance between November 2003 and February 2004.
The mother had taken them out of school for a week's holiday in November 2004, which included participating in a dance finals competition, even though permission had been refused by the school.
The mother believed the competition to be "important for their development".
She then won a holiday competition in January 2005, resulting in further unauthorised absences, the judge said.:hmm:

green granite
8th Mar 2006, 17:41
'My Dear Aunt Sally' as an 'aide memoir'

I was taught that it was BODMAS

Brackets; Of;Division; Multiplication; Addition; Subtraction.

Mind you, brackets may be beyond school kids nowadays :sad:

Onan the Clumsy
8th Mar 2006, 17:55
the concept of Multiply, Divide, Add and Subtract as the order in which to carry out maths processesThey're really Arithmetical Operations, Arithmetic being a branch of Mathematics.

and the generally accepted sequence of operators is:

Parentheses
Exponentiation
Multiplication or Division
Addition or Subtraction
Boolean
:8

Wyler
8th Mar 2006, 18:28
So, every lesson counts does it? Not when you have 'mixed ability' classes it does'nt. My daughter all but gave up last year as the 4 knuckleheads at the back took the attention of the one teacher for the whole lesson.
This year is much better (year 10) because they have streamed the kids so all the single parent, chip eating, texting chimps can scrape their knuckles in one class where all the teacher has to do is chuck in some fruit every 10 minutes.
On another tack, where's the eduaction anyway, its all about making targets. My daughetrs are not taught, they are COACHED on passing exams, one after another. My eldests course work can be handed in, and back 4 times. Not to increase her level of knowledge buit to increae the level of teacher input and presentation to gain maximum points which = good result which = target achieved. I do not blame the teachers although some of them are too stupid to do anything else. I am a parent Governor and our meetings are dominated by policy, tgts and admission criteria. Don't play the game, don't get the cash, simple. Last week I was given 12 separate documents to digest, one a 400 page novel on a Guide to Law for Governors. At no time did we discuss subjects, teaching or children. The Head is no more than a glorified authority staff officer.
On the subject of holidays, why should we all be funnelled into Jul/Aug when the thieving holiday firms ramp up the price by 200%?
And, finally, the thing that REALLY rocks my boat is that my daughter is being conned into thinking she is doing well. She is told that she is on course for A's and B's. She is delighted, me and Mrs Wyler support and encourage her all the way, as with her younger sister in Middle School. Sadly, she will find out how ill equipped she is for the real world the hard way. We do all the we can out of school (clubs etc), part of which is travelling abroad but, as anyone with a 15 year old will know, age/experience and advice count for zip when you are a bombarded with celebrity 'culture'.
This Government needs a kick up the ar*se. As do the great British Public, me included, for letting them get away with it AND letting them stay in power. We don't even have an opposition in this country anymore. It's all the same shade of multi-cultural, non gender specific, minority driven politically correct GREY.





My God, that feels better.:* :* :* :*

G-CPTN
8th Mar 2006, 18:34
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2438918&postcount=2

Huck
9th Mar 2006, 00:15
This year is much better (year 10) because they have streamed the kids so all the single parent, chip eating, texting chimps can scrape their knuckles in one class where all the teacher has to do is chuck in some fruit every 10 minutes.

Congratulations, you just made me spray saliva all over the monitor with that....

patdavies
9th Mar 2006, 00:54
Quite a tirade. Let us dissect it a little
More to the point, do they not realize that holidays during the school holiday period are more expensive than at random times throughout the year. Ok on travel firms making offers, but my step daughter cannot afford to trot off on a holiday abroad with 3 kids.
So if they don't go abroad, it's not a holiday then??
They have accused the lad of absence on a couple of occasions when in fact he was present. The one time there was ample proof, as he was in an exam...
It is perfectly possible for a child to be marked absent when thay are in fact in school. Absence records are not done ad hoc by a teacher being aware that he saw pupil X during the day and therefore he/she must be in school. The law requires a school to take registration twice during the school day. If a pupil is not present at registration then he/she is marked absent - simple.

The teacher in charge of media studies has been lax enough in her task to allow very little course work to be done in the last year, and is now insisting that all the pupils take the exam. The lad has said he has no interest in the topic, and would sooner spend the time and effort learning Mathematics to follow his chosen career. In the event of Matt NOT attending they have threatened a bill in excess of 70£. I have told the daughter to ask the school governors if they are aware of the wasted funds putting the entire class in for an exam that none are prepared for or even interested in.
I accept that you are frustrated with the standard of teaching. However, coursework is only part of the exam board marking scheme and it is possible to obtain a perfectly acceptable GCSE result from the formal examination alone. Also, the examination entries were made months ago (and the fees paid to the examining boards).

The need for work on the Mathematics is again due to the school employing a teacher who was not up to the task.(Her contract has not been renewed this year) The daughters youngest, a 14 year old, had no idea of the concept of Multiply, Divide, Add and Subtract as the order in which to carry out maths processes, and when I told her about 'My Dear Aunt Sally' as an 'aide memoir' it seemed the teacher had no idea of what the child was referring to. Again, at the age of 14 I would imagine she should be capable of simple operations with fractions, but she still thinks that 1/6 is bigger than 1/2.
As has already been said, this smacks of rote learning rather than understanding. The continued confusion with fractions is illustrative of this lack of understanding

I will not mention the quality of her English, suffice it to say there is no 't' in water or matter, and think about things is Fink and Fings. When I mentioned this last year to her, the reply astounded me. You all know the response don't you, "That's how the teachers talk"
This is simple Estuary English which has now spread across the country. Most media role models also fail to enunciate the letter T correctly - it is not limited to this particular school.

I can see why they did away with the eleven plus. It would have bought to light the miserable state of our education system now.
Whilst I had the advantage of a grammar school education and can see valid reasons for selection as a way of providing social mobility via ability, the 11 plus defined failure at a very early age for all those who failed it


I fully accept that our education system is crap, but the blame lies with central government (particularly this government!) who seem to manage by target and by setting ever moving goalposts. Schools respond as best they can to ensure their continued survival and funding. The majority of teachers that I know are dedicated to doing the best that they can for children in their care - after all, kids have but one stab at education. They are continually distracted, overloaded and undermined by the DfES and OfSTED.

Mad (Flt) Scientist
9th Mar 2006, 02:12
the 11 plus defined failure at a very early age for all those who failed it

no it didn't, and that's a piece of propaganda always used to decry the idea of selective education, streaming, or whatever name one gives it.

it did define "academic failure" if you wish - which is not at all the same as "failure", at least in my book - but that's what exams are SUPPOSED TO DO. Everyone fails at some point; that's why we weren't all taking part in the recent Winter Olympics, and why we don't all have Nobel Prizes. Pretending that every kid is academically gifted is a gross disservice to both the gifted and nongifted; it holds the former back, and may lead the latter down a path that will hold little satisfaction and no useful reward for them. As the tertiary education system moves more to the US model in the UK in terms of costing, it becomes more and more important that people - both kids and parents - not be misled into thinking that little Johnny is going to become some kind of scientific whiz, spending thousands or tens of thousands to scrape through a second rate "higher education" only to find the jobs he can actually get will NEVER enable him to make up for the time and money invested.

The US system is already guilty of taking in grossly inflated numbers into bachelor degrees, with the result that many are worth less than toilet paper.

And, in any case, kids KNOW who's the "class thicko" and will point it out - mercilessly. The absence of the 11-plus makes not one iota of difference; any fragile egos that didn't survive being told they were destined for a secondary modern wouldn't survive life in a comprehensive either.

Onan the Clumsy
9th Mar 2006, 04:00
the 11 plus defined failure at a very early age for all those who failed itM(F)S beat me to it: this is simply not true. It might be how some people interpreted the result, but who does THAT define as a failure.

What the 11 plus said was that it appeared you were more suited to an academic life or another, equally valid sort, not that you were a "failure".

In any event, who do we put on the highest of pedestals? Our academics? or our actors, singers and atheletes? :yuk:

Argus
9th Mar 2006, 05:50
The 11+ provided equality of access to a first class education for kids like me from humble backgrounds. It was the Labour Party, to its everlasting shame, through the politics of envy and its town hall soviets, which adopted the policy of regression to educational mediocrity, and abolished grammar schools. And for what – the local comprehensive where:
the 4 knuckleheads at the back (take) the attention of the one teacher for the whole lesson.

and where
they have streamed the kids so all the single parent, chip eating, texting chimps can scrape their knuckles in one class where all the teacher has to do is chuck in some fruit every 10 minutes.


And Onan, you're on the money when you say:What the 11 plus said was that it appeared you were more suited to an academic life or another, equally valid sort, not that you were a "failure".

acbus1
9th Mar 2006, 06:30
patdavis, you can attempt reasoned argument until you are blue in the face.

The results speak for themselves and against you.

(and by "results" I don't mean exam results, I mean the state of the minds of young people when they are spat off the "education, education, education" conveyor belt)



Talking of conveyor belts.........:E

OK, better not. :\

eal401
9th Mar 2006, 07:20
my step daughter cannot afford to trot off on a holiday abroad
Who forces her to go abroad?

If the response is "there's nothing to do in this country" then shame on that person for having no imagination.

up the tower
9th Mar 2006, 09:13
Sorry Mr Jones, but I cannot accept much of what you say. As others have stated, why must holidays be abroad? Secondly, you complain that your grandchildren are not educated enough, but think it is right to pull them from school during term time so they can holiday, hence leading to less time in the classroom.. Prices are the fault of holiday firms, not the schools; it should be they who are asked to review their policies.
Unfortunately you also suffer from what my wife (a teacher) calls 'my precious child syndrome'. Have you ever stepped back to think that it may not be the school failing your grand daughter, but that she might not be that academically gifted. Just because she struggles with her maths and English, does not mean the school is not teaching it.
I am regularly amused by my wifeís tales of parents evenings, when parents sit aghast to be told, in the most professional of manners, that little Timmy is no Einstein, as he sits rocking on his chair and humming to his invisible friends.
It is not the schools failing the children; itís the governmental obsession with targets, inspections and planning that stop teachers dedicating 100% of their time to teaching that have ruined education.

acbus1
9th Mar 2006, 09:22
Your last words indicate, nay state outright, that you agree that education is ruined. :rolleyes:

terryJones
9th Mar 2006, 13:55
up the tower
I would agree that there could be 'My precious child' apart from the fact that the school in question boasts on its own web site about its special needs treatment. The girl in question is dysexic, diagnosed as such years ago in primary school.
What different treatment does she get from the school. NONE, the funding is only there for Statemented pupils, who really should be in a special needs school anyway.
eal401
The comment was about travel agents, who are normally used for trips abroad as opposed to a week in Skeggy.
patdavies
You refer to 'Estuary English' as if it should be acepted without question. I assume then I am wrong in expecting teachers, who should have the pupils best interests at heart, to at least be able to pronounce the words correctly. Of course, in my day teachers were looked up to, both in their personal presentation and their mastery of the English language, be they maths, physics, woodwork or any other subject teacher.
Grainger
It would seem that you are not comfortable with FREDA, HASSELL or BUMFICHH either, as this is in effect learning by rote. Do you not feel that learning by rote is better than not learning at all. I agree, an understanding is desirable, but there are many times where the rule must be obeyed, whether or not you fully understand why.
It would seem, by the way, that there was a mis-understanding. It was I who mentioned the My Dear Aunt Sally, as the youngster had NO concept of any order, or the results of the wrong order. It was not promoted by the school.
I fail to see what this has to do with not realising the relative sizes of one half to one sixth however.

Grainger
9th Mar 2006, 15:06
FREDA, HASSELL or BUMFICHHThese are effectively a checklist for a set of events to be carried out in sequence. They are a reminder, not a substitute for developing flying skills, and anyone who flew by these alone without understanding the theory behind them and without practising to develop their airmanship skills would be very dangerous indeed.

Rote learning of the type you mention is largely discredited these days. You can no more learn maths by memorising nursery rhymes than you can learn to speak a foreign language by memorising verb tables.

R4+Z
9th Mar 2006, 15:32
Would someone care to explain the difference between rote learning and an "Aide Memoir" (sp?). My son is just recovering from a year with a bad teacher. I am not in the precious child area either, every subject other than english he excells in but last year his english teacher was pathetic. I complained repeatedly but teaching is a protected proffession. Fortunately this year she didn't return and things are now getting better. The laughable part of this is during my complaints they admitted she was new and had to learn!!!! At my sons expense!!

Grainger
9th Mar 2006, 15:46
I don't think there is much of a distinction, R4. Stricly speaking rote learning is where you just repeat the thign to be learnt, like chanting your times tables.

The "Aide Memoire" or "mnemonic" approach attempts to relate something to be memorised with a catchy phrase or saying that supposedly is easier to remember. It can be an effective way of learning a list, but skills are best developed by understanding and doing.