The J vs K Thread. Pacifists keep out.

[Controversial Tim]

Like the Title says. There's too much vitriol between the mighty fleets on various threads around PPrune. Instead of spreading it around, keep it here. Keep it public info only. And let the pr*ts who think it's in-fighting keep out.

The 'J' isn't cleared to be useful.

The 'K' is too old to make use of it's clearances.


Let banter commence. :E

[Safety_Helmut]

But surely the A400M will solve all of our woes ? :E

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

http://www.asmh37.dsl.pipex.com/deargod.jpg

[16 blades]

Here we go again.

Oh, well, in for a penny......

ALL J CHIMPS ARE W@NKERS!!!!!!!

:) :E

16B

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Here we go again.
Oh, well, in for a penny......
ALL J CHIMPS ARE W@NKERS!!!!!!!
:) :E
16B


http://users.pandora.be/bauknecht/Forum****/bobbythekitten.jpg

[demobcurious]

OTTB hoping that his much used cartoons will stop the highlighting of lack of K flyability (my word - TM pending) is a waste of bandwidth methinks.

[LunchMonitor]

Just heard the Lyneham Gate Guardian was to be removed for use as the latest MR4A testbed and was due to be replaced by xv199, unfortunately Marshalls are unable to guarantee this aircraft being ready on time and this task was re-allocated to the J fleet.
Due to operational overstretch this cannot be covered it has been sent out to contract and the space will be filled by the wooden A400m from farnborough Airshow, pending trials by QinetiQ.

[propulike]

From the RAF News (03 Mar edition). http://www.rafnews.co.uk/default.asp?channel_id=117 Lyneham-based 70 Squadron will be the lead squadron for the RAF detachment in Kandahar.
Surely putting the 'K' into Afghanistan in Summer instead of flinging them at sea-level Iraq doesn't make sense to anybody - does it? The thing'll be practically MOS even before they load it up with the coal it needs to burn.

At least they're finally managing to get the old bird back on a det though, there's one consolation. Or at least - they're planning to get the old bird back on a det. It would be awfully embarrassing if the aircraft fell over (again) at the last minute after that RAF News centre page spread... :O

[16 blades]

It never came OFF the det. Politics ensures that a song-and-dance accompanies any J det - whereas we just quietly get on with the work.

Agree that the J would be better suited to AFG, although the K has no real perf probs, even in summer months.

16B

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

It never came OFF the det. Politics ensures that a song-and-dance accompanies any J det - whereas we just quietly get on with the work.


You really do come out with some pearls of wisdom :yuk:

Please enlighten us with a song-and-dance example.

[propulike]

Politics ensures that a song-and-dance accompanies any J det - whereas we just quietly get on with the work.
Have you SEEN the RAF News :8 :8 :8

Quietly getting on with it my ar$e!!!! More along the lines of "Look at us, we've not been scrapped yet!"

[16 blades]

Have you SEEN the RAF News

Yes, and it's the FIRST TIME in a LONG TIME that the K has featured prominently. It's usually "OOH - look at what our shiny new toy can do!"

....conveniently omitting what it CAN'T do.

16B

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Have you SEEN the RAF News :8 :8 :8
Quietly getting on with it my ar$e!!!! More along the lines of "Look at us, we've not been scrapped yet!"
Hardly a song and dance. Deserved and welcome recognition is more apt.
A song and dance would be a C17 or a Tristar going somewhere slightly dodgy and making the centre spread as is the norm.

[Guy Willesley]

it's the FIRST TIME in a LONG TIME that the K has featured prominentlyIt's the first time in a long time that one of the main Sqns has been anywhere operational ;)

Not that you've got there yet.....

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

It's the first time in a long time that one of the main Sqns has been anywhere operational ;)


I heard the K's were going to come back between mid June and Sept so that everyone could get their summer leave in.
Too much too quickly could be a shock to the system.

[16 blades]

It's the first time in a long time that one of the main Sqns has been anywhere operational

Beg to differ, old chap. Most of what I have done in the last 12 months has been operational.

A song and dance would be a C17 or a Tristar going somewhere slightly dodgy and making the centre spread as is the norm.

Agree! Let's unite and slag off the shiny w@nkers instead.

Edited 'cause I can't spell 'shiny' when pissed

16B

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Beg to differ, old chap. Most of what I have done in the last 12 months has been operational.
16B

Only to maintain operational currency. Spot of MCT to keep you tip top.

[16 blades]

At least we get to actually FLY for MCT...

...instead of 'pretending' in the Sim.

16B

[Guy Willesley]

Regretably, very little of what I've done in the last 12 months has been operational. Plenty of opportunity though should I ever decide to escape from the sims, and when I do visit the tents I rarely see my old type on the dispersal....

It is a waste of aircraft though imho to keep people current just so they can fly MCT and keep current - to fly MCT.

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

At least we get to actually FLY for MCT...
...instead of 'pretending' in the Sim.
16B

Wow, take off from Lyneham and land back again. Now that is class.

That will get the troops and freight into theatre..............NOT

When the J flies it does it for good reason.

[adr]

First Googlefight! (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=C130J&word2=C130K) Second Googlefight! (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=J&word2=K)

:ouch: :eek: :} :E

adr

[Guy Willesley]

I love that site!

Try this Googlefight (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=c130k&word2=70+sqn);)

[theboywide]

Why can't we focus on how the K and J can best do the job together instead of pissing and moaning about the other fleet.
FACT - The K is dieing but its got a good few years in yet
FACT - The K is overborne with aircrew and as not enough frames
FACT - The K is severely performance limited
FACT - The J still does not have all the necessary clearances or kit (yet)
FACT - The J is going to end up at least filling the gaps in the "70 sqn deployment" if not doing it all
FACT - The K and J each have their good and bad points and if we were to focus on how best to perform combined ops then it'd be a lot better for both fleets

[Guy Willesley]

Performing combined ops would require more engineering and spares support than single type ops. It would be better to try for one det one type.

[16 blades]

FACT - The K is severely performance limited
No, it isn't.

Performing combined ops would require more engineering and spares support than single type ops. It would be better to try for one det one type.
You don't need Eng support to run a Det. You need a GE and a phone. THAT'S IT. Any doubters should look to the near-100% serviceability of a certain long-standing K det.

We manage that one quite nicely without Adminers as well, curiously.

All you NEED for a det is 1 aircraft, 1 crew, 2 GEs. (or 1 crew, 2 GEs per aircraft). It works. We've done it, we've been doing it for a long time. No Eng det, no Ops, no Int cell, no 'DETCO', no army of adminers, coppers, movers, hangers-on, or anyone else. (OK, admittedly, you need some kind of J4 organisation to dove-tail it into everything else). It sometimes makes me think the Army / Navy have a point when they castigate our manpower levels...

Concur with the 'spares' thing though - although all that would need is twice as much space to store spares held on site - which is usually f**k-all to start with since we can't afford it.

16B

[LunchMonitor]

Quote:
FACT - The K is severely performance limited
No, it isn't.
A well thought out response backed up with reasoned argument and facts!!!!


The K is severely performance limited, in comparison to the J, for example: Moving loads out of Afghan after the initial conflict, J using NOS was offering 7/8 tonnes more payload than the K using MOS.

[monkeybumhead]

The K manages to keep hold of it's life rafts, unlike the J.
The K doesn't try and mush up internal organs, unlike the J (depending where you sit).
If the J lasts as long as the K will it ever be as good?
K aircrew like to remove the intake blanks pre-flight, unlike J aircrew w@#kers!!!

[BEagle]

Some good news for you who might otherwise doubt that fine Airbus Military aeroplane, the A400M:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/03/03/Navigation/177/205256/Pictures+First+test+of+Europrop+TP400-D6+with+8-blade.html

Note this in particular: "The development engine has already achieved its stated maximum rating of 10,690shp (7,965kN)."

[SlipperySlappery]

Ahhhhhhhh,

I see that we didn't manage to procure any objectivity as either part of the latest J software load or as another awkward bolt-on for the K. I wonder exactly how much energy (to the nearest 1000 man-days) you people have wasted fighting each other instead of making the C130 force work effectively together. Most people recognise that both aircraft still have a lot to offer - not that you'd get that impression here.

Frankly nobody outside Lyneham and 2 Gp really gives a t*ss which model of C130 is tasked as long as it turns up on time and gets the job done. And (for the public domain) nobody outside Lyneham, 2 Gp and the Para Reg really gives a t*ss what each type of aircraft can drop out of the back - the primary role is AT, not meat-bombing battlefields and providing target practice for a variety of widely-exported Russian SAMs.

Lyneham used to be massively divisive in the old days of pure K rivalry and nothing seems to have changed - even though half the J guys have masses of K experience. Wonder if you'll take your petty ways across to Brize in 5 years to whine about the A330, C17 and A400M.

SS

[ZH875]

Wonder if you'll take your petty ways across to Brize in 5 years to whine about the A330, C17 and A400M.Cannot see anyone whining about A330 or A400M in five years time, unless its to say "When will they enter service"

Still its not all bad news on A400M, at least the engine is off the drawing board.

[Navaleye]

Not sure I'd want to fly in a UK A400. See this:

In this week's flight international(28/2/06) it has been reveal that of all the launch customers for the A400M have selected fuel tank inerting systems and the U.K has not, which was recommended for fitting to C130's by board of inquiry following the lost of a C130k in iraq.
Also it states that UK MOD has removed the Defensive countermeasures equipment in all but 9 of the 25 planes in order to save £240 Millon($417 Million).
it also says the A400m will be declared operational during 2007 following the delivery of aircraft no 7.


source
Flight international

Thanks to Cyrilranch on the (decent) RN board

[Guy Willesley]

You don't need Eng support to run a Det. You need a GE and a phone. THAT'S IT. Any doubters should look to the near-100% serviceability of a certain long-standing K det.
You really believe that you can run a 4 aircraft det with a couple of GEs and whatever spares you can scrape together to take with you? If that's the case, either you're responsible for K availability rates or it's true that you guys have been too long out of the saddle.

And BEags, we all know you work for Airbus now but please stop being a salesman on PPrune. It's against the rules for posting. (And your flawed design is still only that. High T-tail to avoid transonic propwash over the elevators.... :zzz: )

Monkeybumhead, good argument. Must check on the number of quadruple prop changes J's have required at Basrah, straight after I've replaced some lighting stanchions for you in Bahrain.

[16 blades]

You really believe that you can run a 4 aircraft det with a couple of GEs and whatever spares you can scrape together to take with you?
It's been working for 1 aircraft for several years now. Why not 4? You don't need an army of electronics experts to get a K working - just a hairy man with a big hammer.

you guys have been too long out of the saddle.
Thanks, Guy, that gave me a real laugh!

Bless 'em - they 'route queen' their way around the desert and they think that makes them punchy war heroes! Awww! how cute....

16B

[Arty]

...as opposed to 'route queening' their way around the LA hold ;)

''Another tricky BRAVO departure then nav''....:zzz:

[Guy Willesley]

16B,

I've been on one aircraft dets several times now, and it works fabulously with 2 GEs and good Eng support in Lyneham. A big hairy bloke and a hammer can't fix most things though, otherwise the K would have more aircraft on the line than it does!

As for 'route queening' round the desert, you do the guys a disservice. They've been there for coming on 3 years now and have developed new tactics to fit the different capabilities of the J, the theatre it's in and the threat they're actually up against - and the engineers are still maintaining an almost 100% servicability rate.

[skaterboi]

FFS fellas this is pathetic!

Who cares about which is better? Both are good at some things and not at others. I fly the K but I don't begrudge the J guys. As was already said as long as a Herc turns up and does the job everyones happy.

Controversial Tim - you are a tosser of the highest order for kicking this off again, even worse than those that get drawn into the bickering.

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

It's been working for 1 aircraft for several years now. Why not 4? You don't need an army of electronics experts to get a K working - just a hairy man with a big hammer. 16B

Ah! So they fly all day and then have to fix it once it lands as the crew head off for a wind down beer? On the down days it's a chance to get the wheel change or the brake unit change done. Get a grip 16B

Just work them 24/7 until they PVR

Bless 'em - they 'route queen' their way around the desert and they think that makes them punchy war heroes! Awww! how cute....

That really is uncalled for and quite a nasty comment.

24 and 30 have been working their little butts off for the last 3 years with minimum time at home.

[Navaleye]

I must be honest and say that the "mine's better than yours" banter between the J and K fraternity is wearing a little thin. I thought we all worked together. Change is not always easy.

[16 blades]

Sorry - I thought this was a BANTER thread.

My mistake.

16B

[Navaleye]

16b,

We bought new model because we needed them and the old one was out of production. What more needs to be said? They are both fine aircraft.

[Controversial Tim]

Kicking this off again Sk8r? It's never gone away! Getting it all out in here will give the pacifists a chance not to be annoyed 'cos others have an opinion.

Clue's in the thread title gents.

[Two's in]

A Donkey asks...

If Group A are tasked with obtaining the maximum operational capability from an aging platform, beset with the usual problems of spares, serviceability, and availbility, and yet do this exceptionally well and in a professional manner. Whereas Group B are tasked with obtaining the maximum operational capability from an newly introduced platform, beset with the usual problems of MAR, and introduction to service issues, and yet do this exceptionally well and in a professional manner, why would they publicly flog each other over the relative merits of each Group when the organizational failings that lead to this animosity are largely outside of their control and pay grade? What am I missing here?

[Guy Willesley]

That actually the 2 groups get on quite well, they just like getting one over on the other?

Besides which, I can't let it lie. The J's just better :rolleyes:

[16 blades]

You're confusing 'better' with 'newer'.

16B

[Arty]

You're in a minority of one with that opinion it seems :{

[Guy Willesley]

Nope! And I've flown them both......

[Navaleye]

I haven't flown in the new model, but I have in the old and I don't expect the new one to be any less uncomfortable. They are both just a utility transport. What is all the fuss about? Good a/c with professionals at the helm, getting the job done.

[16 blades]

The J seems noiser down the back, and the vibes are higher frequency and much more annoying. And for some odd reason, anything more than 3 ft off the floor gets roasting hot, whereas the bottom 3 ft of the freight bay is arctic.

As opposed to the K freight bay, where anything more than 10ft away from the prop line is arctic!

But what the hell - I'm probably gonna end up flying the damn thing sooner or later.

Well, when I say 'flying', I mean 'pushing buttons on the MC'.

Autothrottles - what's that all about? Something wrong with your right hands up Northside?

16B

[Guy Willesley]

Something wrong with your right hands up Northside?
LOL! There are so many possible answers .... !:E :O :E

[juliet]

gee, cant wait till 16B joins the J fleet. just the type of person we need:yuk:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

NO Juliet,

16 Blades is to be commended for defending the classic, however he will join the J fleet and, like every other Pilot and ALM who has gone through conversion, will discover just how superbly capable the J really is and how it is light years ahead of anything he has endured to date.

It will of course then be very interesting to see which angle his posts come from on this age old topic:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

16B...

Are you in currency???
:confused:
Course you are, you'll have been doing MCT recently.
:sad:
No MCT in the sand-pit!!!
:E

Later Dudes;
'J' Bloke:cool:

[Navaleye]

But what the hell - I'm probably gonna end up flying the damn thing sooner or later.

Then you'll have to change your title to "24 Blades" :uhoh: :zzz:

[ratty1]

Then you'll have to change your title to "24 Blades" :uhoh: :zzz:

That is providing he passes the course

[Blodwyn Pig]

That is providing he passes the course

isn't the course just microwave cookery?

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

...microwave cookery...

learning to breathe fresh air....
learning how to let the autothrottles do the work...
learning how to arrive on time!!!

Later...
'J' Bloke:cool:

[Arty]

What, 16 Blades doing the J conversion??

Can't wait!

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Sarge/Axe_anim.gif


:E :E

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Oh dear,

24 blades seems to have gone a little quiet:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Careful Ratty;

He might be a Tac boy.
He'll be out displaying a show of allied air power over the insurgent hotspots of Keevil and Everleigh!!!:ok:

Later;
'J' Bloke:cool:

[ratty1]

That is if the Nav can find them..................:eek:

[16 blades]

Odd - every time I've followed a J on an Interfly, it's been THEM that have got lost - "You DO know you're about to overfly a glider site, don't you, oh mighty electric jet?"....followed by sudden avoiding action...that is when they manage to complete the entire route without having to land somewhere to do a CTRL-ALT-DELETE....

It would seem the tradtional 'looking out of the window' method of navigation has passed our Northside friends by....never mind boys, just keep staring through your HUDs...I'm sure the answer will appear there eventually....after the third reset or so.

"PNF - I need the red card drill for "Computer says NO and we have to use our own brain!"

"Says LAND ASAP here, captain......."

100% true, so I'm told!

:E

16B

[propulike]

It's suddenly clicked. You're not aircrew are you? You've no idea what goes on!

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

It would seem the tradtional 'looking out of the window' method of navigation has passed our Northside friends by....never mind boys, just keep staring through your HUDs...I'm sure the answer will appear there eventually....after the third reset or so.
16B

Hmmm, what is that glass thing behind my HUD, I could have sworn it was a window.

Anyway, the 777 is far better than flying either:p

Don't forget, BA not PA!!!!!

P-T-G

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

P-T-G

you're still a git.:ok:

Bagged any hosties yet???
No obviously not....you're still GINGER!!!:yuk:

All the Best;
'J' Bloke:cool:

[Op Tastic]

Pse tie in with the Rebels massing in Solust thread, " You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!"

Can't beat Lx!

[theboywide]

24 Blades - I've yet to go on a sortie where a K has pointed out a glider site to a J - digimap anyone?
I have however seen a K crew set up for final approach on Keevil instead of Lyneham doh!
And I've seen a K crew return to Basrah having failed to find a certain strippy type airfield whose name I can't possibly mention.
You keep living the dream 16b while the world evolves around you!

[16 blades]

...and I've seen a J crew return to base because their 'digimap' froze - aww, bless....ever heard of paper?

You DO have a stopwatch on your flight deck, don't you? And windows to look out of?

The K's nav kit is every bit as accurate as the J's - except you need a brain to use it.

16B

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

...and I've seen a J crew return to base because their 'digimap' froze - aww, bless....ever heard of paper?

24blades...nice new moniker!!!:}

At least the 'J' got airborne before their kit failed.
But then again, even with the lims of our digimap, I've never seen it freeze.
Just lucky I guess.

Any MCT this week for you???:hmm:

RTM.
'J' Bloke:cool:

[16 blades]

24blades...nice new moniker!!!
W@nkers!

The CHEEK of it!

MCT hours count towards the licence, old boy - unlike your sim.

16B

[propulike]

Don't need to worry about getting enough hours on the 'J' !

How was the hours building in the Falklands?

[theboywide]

...and I've seen a J crew return to base because their 'digimap' froze - aww, bless....ever heard of paper?
You DO have a stopwatch on your flight deck, don't you? And windows to look out of?
The K's nav kit is every bit as accurate as the J's - except you need a brain to use it.
16B

I've had the digimap fail on me several times and navigating from paper maps is just as easy. Follow the beautiful white line on the nav radar and the steer bar on the head up display and cross ref with paper map - still less talking than a K flight deck and no need for a distinct smell of wee in the corner! Anyone that goes home with a digimap fail (and I've heard of none) should have their knuckles wrapped as they're wusses.
Oh and by the way - speak to K operators that have done the J course and ask them which takes more brains to operate.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

W@nkers!:p

24 Blades what a cracking reposte dude, keep em comin :ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

PS Unless greatly mistaken there was a "K" out her on route today, can anyone explain my "mirage":E

[ratty1]

PS Unless greatly mistaken there was a "K" out here on route today, can anyone explain my "mirage":E

Probably looking for Keevil..............................:8

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Dear ABIW;

Too many DFs again...
I suggest that you lie down in an air-conditioned basha!!!:\

See you soon...:ok:

'J' Bloke..:cool:

PS. 24B has gone to bed...sorting out the Wiltshire insurgents tomorrow apparently!!!:hmm:

Edited for Red wine speeling

[16 blades]

Bless! You're all such 'sensitive boys' aren't you?

16B

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

So then 24B....

Pray tell just why a Mk1 route for the occaisional K fleet(?) needs a set of Rumbold seats if all the crew are current and prepped for Ops.:mad:

Damn those West Wiltshire infidels!!! They need sorting with some of those JerryCans full of water!!!:ok:

More Later...
'J' Bloke.:cool:

[16 blades]

Work it out dude! Not rocket science. The clue was in your question.

The K fleet is where the REAL Operational sharp end still lives. And will for a long, long time to come. The J is not equipped to do that job. And never will be, unless somebody makes a LARGE pile of money available, soon.

16B

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Now now 24 Blades I hardly think the current numbers of "klassics" on deployment can be described as a fleet, more like a pair I would have thought:E

Also bearing in mind the continuity in your posts could you please enlighten us as to when Wiltshire or Cambridge officialy became the sharp end:rolleyes:

"The K fleet is where the REAL Operational sharp end still lives. And will for a long, long time to come. The J is not equipped to do that job."

Slightly ill informed I think chap as should you care to wander over to the newer part of the staion and make polite enuries you may find that the J has in fact carried out some very daring do's when your "fleet" has been "unavailable":eek:, and made a bloody good job of it to boot.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[16 blades]

If you don't know what I was referring to, I'm not going to explain it to you on a public forum. Take my word for it.

16B

[propulike]

Yes, you're all working very hard. So hard in fact that the Sqn shags aren't logging any of the hours in order to create a smokescreen.

How about that you lot just acknowledge that the Tac stuff you keep bleating on about is irrelevant in the theatres we're in, ditch that incessant high fatigue index training which will never be required for the Sqn guys and take some of the tasking off the 'J' which is flying it's arse off everywhere except the Lyneham circuit?

[theboywide]

Here here - well said

[Controversial Tim]

Vaguely surprised that the 'K' guys have given in so easily. The new kite is obviously pretty d#mn good.

Well done 16 (24 ;-)) Blades for a fine rearguard action. Pity you were left all alone - I suspect the old bird deserved more than just one defender.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

"Pity you were left all alone - I suspect the old bird deserved more than just one defender."

They are all on gardening leave so no one is around to perpetuate the row, well apart for our "never been anywhere worth talking about wiltshire warrior":rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[16 blades]

They are all on gardening leave so no one is around to perpetuate the row, well apart for our "never been anywhere worth talking about wiltshire warrior"

I think YOU need to take a wander over to the 'older' part of the station, chap and find out what WE'RE up to....and have been all along. But hey, get a decent DAS, then feel free to join the party....

Slightly ill informed I think chap

You certainly are.

take some of the tasking off the 'J' which is flying it's arse off everywhere except the Lyneham circuit?
Yes, all that route queening must be SO taxing for you poor souls.

How about that you lot just acknowledge that the Tac stuff you keep bleating on about is irrelevant in the theatres we're in
>SERIOUS MODE ON
Actually, I couldn't agree more, but it's not driven by us - it's driven by the requirements of our primary customer. As soon as they tell us they no longer need it, we'll stop doing it. Until then, we have to maintain certain skill sets, AS WELL AS training for current theatres. And with many of our aircraft in and out of Marshalls every 5 minutes for kit upgrades, it's getting difficult to maintain.
>SERIOUS MODE OFF

16B

[truckiebloke]

16 blades....

I have been over your side to see what you are up to - and its not much!!

And you aren't doing too much according to STARS either.

Or the stats that have been produced recently at Lyneham showing the 'j' guys working far beyond harmony.

Nor have you done much at all in Iraq, as there have often been as many as 8 'j' crews out there and 6 frames,with no 'k' support.

Thats whilst the 'j' is still deployed elsewhere , and continues to do routes.

But at least you guys go round and round in the circuit most days - but WHAT ARE YOU ACTUALLY TRAINING FOR??

Every single previous 'k' operator who has come to the 'j' only has good things to say and dont look back. That speaks volumes.

[Arty]

Actually I think you K guys are doing a really good job, 16B.

After all, it can't be easy for you to provide ops support on the operational J dets in between all your ski expeds! :rolleyes:

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Kit Upgrades...????

Saw the one with the 'bits' on in the circuit today...incessantly.

Must be thrashing the parts off those 'kit upgrades'.

Hmm...Didn't think you needed DAS in Wiltshire!!!:\

Keeping it vague;
'J' Bloke:cool:

[Lara crofts pants]

There I was thinking that I was working hard out in theatre trying to massage my working day in order to get the job done for my lads.

Turns out I was wrong all along. So thanks j guys for pointing that out, I'll bear that in mind the next time I'm not there

LCP:confused:

[theboywide]

24 blades - If the Ks the way of the future why are so many K pilots jumping ship to join the J over the next few months? What does it tell you when the next course of abinitio K crews have been reroled to J?

[propulike]

That we're getting desperate for crews :E

[Grimweasel]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=21PWFMRPHDLATQFIQMGCFFOAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2006/03/13/npara13.xml&sSheet=/portal/2006/03/13/ixportal.html

Seems that the 'Veg' are getting a little annoyed at the lack of either frame!!!
J or K!

Quote:
"The RAF has been blamed for lacking flexibility in providing aircraft, but Air Force chiefs say their fleet of 50 C130 Hercules has a priority to deliver supplies to troops in Iraq and Afghanistan."

[propulike]

Already being discussed here : http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=216192

[16 blades]

That we're getting desperate for crews
If everything is so great on your fleet, why is everybody leaving?

16B

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

24 Blades you silly silly young man:rolleyes:

The reason J folks are looking to pastures new is that the current tasking levels are stretching the level of good will beyond the norm, not something that the 47/70 non "sf" crews would know anything about.

Wait till, if your TCAS ever comes up to scratch, you main Sqn guys are back earning your queens shilling in the way that we are then come back to us on here and tell us what it's all about, in the meantime enjoy your extended gardening leave you wiltshire warrior you:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[theboywide]

If everything is so great on your fleet, why is everybody leaving?
16B

I think i asked the same about your fleet 24 blades.
Let me put it into perspective for you - an email came across to our side about an exchange posting with "2/3 six week detachments" per year and a K exec had written on the bottom - I suggest this post is only considered by single guys or married guys who want a divorce as its detached duty four months of a year.
This made us all realise how out of touch main squadron K guys are with how much time J guys are doing detached at the mo (four months a year on average). This is why guys are leaving and this is only gonna get worse seeing as we're already planned to do the majority of the Afg det no matter what RAF news would lead you to believe!
I really do hope some of your frames come back online soon just to ease the sanity of our side of the airfield by taking basra for another two weeks or however long you can cope this time!

[16 blades]

I really do hope some of your frames come back online soon
So do I!!
if your TCAS ever comes up to scratch
Er...it's been fitted and working for months.
at least three 4-week dets per year
I did far more than 3 dets last year, as did many others.

I am curious as to just WHERE this perception comes from that we are doing nothing. Yes, we have had availability problems, mainly due to the fact that Marshalls took so long to fit our TCAS (correctly), but the J has been far from unproblematic. We have been running an Afghan det for some time now, and we still cover MPA. The majority of what we do is TacAT - the relevance of some elements have already, rightfully, been challenged - but it still has to be done.

taking basra for another two weeks or however long you can cope this time!
I seem to remember we were there for several months, with more aircraft than you, and it wasn't aircraft availability that ended it. We have more war frames than you, after all. Your operational tasking level seems to have more to do with the politics of pushing the J to the fore being practiced at higher levels than with anything else, since we have the more capable aircraft (in terms of op kit).

Both aircraft have strikingly similar unserviceability rates, so I see no good reason for you guys to take the brunt of the tasking - apart from that mentioned above.

we're already planned to do the majority of the Afg det no matter what RAF news would lead you to believe!
Since when? Our commitment certainly hasn't been reduced.

16B

[truckiebloke]

Im sorry 16 blades you are so mistaken on most things...

Its true you guys do dets... i remember half a dozen of you guys last year supporting the 'j' on yet another det in and out of Pakistan that the 'j' was doing - BUT THERE WERE NO K AIRCRAFT - nice role done as ops support though.

At that same time we had at least six crews deployed in Iraq, with commitments elsewhere too.

You still do the Falklands. Well done.

As for serviceabililty.... Engineering say at best you will have 4 frames for Afganistan, but that is if a miracle happens. We have crews and aircraft on standby.

As for your TCAS, come and look at the 'j' TCAS and compare, and whilst you are there look at our nav kit , HUD and everything else that is MODERN..and notice that there isn't a stink of p*ss in the corner too...

I have several friends on the 'k' who are caught up in doing lots of triv, secondary duties, but more importantly that want to leave either to come to the j or to get away from the boredom.

As for everyone wanting to leave, that is an AT wide problem due to the amount of tasking/time away/crap that we are doing (that doesnt include you)

[calpat]

I never thought It would come to this, but finally I feel I have to respond to a thread. Guys, stop hiding behind the 'it's only banter/ keep the pacifists out' line, you're making all us Herc guys look stupid. Most people don't normally need a reason to slag us off, stop making their lives easy for them.

Facts:

1. The same arguments go around and around....We (I'm a long time K guy) slagged the J 2001/2 when we were doing all the Afghan stuff and all the J did was win a Queen's award for flying into a Pakistani holiday resort.

2. The real problem with the K isn't serviceability, but DAS ac. Give us more and we'll do more, until then the darkside will always get first call. Unfortunately this isn't going to change, sorry J guys, but deal with it.

3. The K is manned 1.7/1. As there has usually been at least 3 Ks deployed around the world since the war then we're not too far behind. On both sides af the airfield there are plenty of people doing too much time away. On the K it is just a smaller bunch all round.

4. 16 blades, chill out big guy. The more you bite the more it looks like there is something to hide, let it go.

5. There are w**kers/whingers on both sides, the rest of us just have to deal with that fact of life.

[maximo ping]

Seconded...:ok:

[ChezTanker]

http://www.asmh37.dsl.pipex.com/deargod.jpg

Gets my vote:yuk: . I had 4 great tours on the K's - have just flown in the J around ME as a pax. I was truly impressed with the J ... both ac have their points. Not so impressed with a crew at Bzn who referred to both as ''skips'':O - CRM fell down for a little while while I recovered my toys:mad: .

[notanotherexped]

Its seems such a shame that 16B gets all the stick. I am having the time of my life on the K , cant take all my leave and exped tastic my only problem is which exped to go on next. Keep up all the good work J guys remember we all get paid the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

[16 blades]

Just trying to defend my baby! There seems to be a great deal of ignorance of what the K actually does, mainly, it seems, from those who have never operated it.

Agree, it's getting a little samey now. I thought this was going to be a banter thread but it seems a few raw nerves were touched.

It's only 'cos I'm secretly jealous of your terribly shiny, terribly operational fancy-flashing-light adorned toy....:)

16B

[notanotherexped]

Its just a shame they cant just get on with there job and keep biching about how busy they are. One minute they are bored with nothing to do and now they have to much work. What has it been 8 years now we have had the J model and still not as capable as the mighty K model....:D

[16 blades]

8 years now we have had the J model and still not as capable as the mighty K model....
Indeed. It's somewhat akin to a Max Power Chav-Hatch, complete with body kit, dustbin-sized exhaust, TV screens and a monster stereo with flashing lights.....lots to talk about and show off, but less useful than a normal car....:E

16B

[ZH875]

Indeed. It's somewhat akin to a Max Power Chav-Hatch, complete with body kit, dustbin-sized exhaust, TV screens and a monster stereo with flashing lights.....lots to talk about and show off, but less useful than a normal car....:E

16BBut at least it doesn't stink of P1$$.

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Indeed. It's somewhat akin to a Max Power Chav-Hatch, complete with body kit, dustbin-sized exhaust, TV screens and a monster stereo with flashing lights.....lots to talk about and show off, but less useful than a normal car....

Dear Dear 24B;:{

We have the same body style...we have less bits sticking out...
Body kit...yours has extra nipples...granted!!!
Dustbin sized exhaust...erm...you can have that one!!!
TV screens ..Yep..they're great!!
Monster stereo...Hmm..just been told off for Ipod FM..OOps!!!:ok:

Normal car yes...doesn't need to go to the scrappie yet.

Done 5 tours on Ks....but it's past it...really!!!:hmm:

More Later;
'J' Bloke:cool:

[Rotate]

Autothrottles - what's that all about? Something wrong with your right hands up Northside?
16B

Only just been catching up with this thread, so here goes...

16B I gotta ask you buddy, did you or did you not have a problem with one of your hands on a det I seem to recall!!! I vaguely remember it looked like a w@N%$r cast!! :rolleyes: In Aye You Did! LMF perhaps!?

Anyway, both aircraft do a fine job and are manned by guys and gals who do their utmost to carry out a professional job to the best of their abilities. Sometimes though there are things which are just outside of our control...All of our control. And I know with some of my landings, if you did that to me for 40 years I would start to rebel aswell!
Oh and just to clarify, we do a fine job when we are not constrained by certain sources and also have aircraft to enable us to do the job!

Oh and I agree with Guy, for once, it is just harmful banter between mates who like to get one up on each other! If anyone takes it more seriously than that...YOU'RE IN THE WRONG JOB!!!

Maybe it is time to cut some of our losses! PIN'S OUT, STAND BACK!

[ratty1]

Maybe it is time to cut some of our losses! PIN'S OUT, STAND BACK! Or maybe cut some of the K's into little pieces............ Oh they are.....

[truckiebloke]

yep, not enough aircraft and not enough people doing alot over there - think its about time that one of the SQN'S was disbanded......

[country calls]

So if the plastic pig is so busy in the sandbox, does that mean we Klassic chaps are going to have to do all the TacDemo's and Falcs trips this season? Or are the leather flying jackets going to be dusted of all that middle eastern topsoil?

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

So if the plastic pig is so busy in the sandbox, does that mean we Klassic chaps are going to have to do all the TacDemo's and Falcs trips this season?

These displays require airframes which can be chucked about a bit. Straight and level flight just isn't up to the job and doesn't impress the punters.

So I guess you knew the answer before you asked it.

[country calls]

The free falling hairstyles down the back get a bit touchy if you start throwing them around. One run in and break hardly constitutes being chucked about a bit!

Tac Demo needs a little bit of chuckability I grant you, but we are hardly talking fitting G pants to the drivers are we? (Its bad enough reminding the navs to wear their incontinence pants).

So I take it your defensive pose has more to do with you hoping to get a bit more return for your investment in the leather flying coat and Oakleys then?

[safe single]

.... and your free range rover.....?

[Guy Willesley]

You mean - this? ;)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h233/hercdisplay/C-130JandRangeRoverPPRUNE.jpg

[safe single]

yeah, that's the one. S'alright for you primadonnas poncing about the airshow circuit while we're working our arses off out here in Jandahar......












;)

[propulike]

Jandahar ?

[fat albert]

Yes, Jandahar.

Everyone knows there's no K in Kandahar.......

boom boom! :ok:

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

That actually made me chuckle.

[ZH875]

Thanks Guys.....Another Tea splattered monitor

[country calls]

And coffee splattered keyboard!

Now where is that can of emergency banter.............

[LunchMonitor]

It proves that they are all Junts.
Pass-A-Frozo:
Do a search in prune for "stinks of" or "piss" then you will realise its not the K that smells but the old bloke at the back of the flight deck who tells you your scns is wrong that smells.
If in doubt ask ABIW he seems to be the main proponent of the incontinent nav rumour.

[BEagle]

"Everyone knows there's no K in Kandahar......."

But why is there a tent in retention? Somewhat self-defeating, methinks.....

[Gainesy]

Howzabout a K-and-a-Half?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Gainesy/c130np2000.jpg
Somebody called Snow Aviation in the US.

[LunchMonitor]

J and K must unite to fight the new foe:
The M
http://www.snowaviation.com/c130m.htm

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Sounds like a J(-) to me!!

[dessert_flyer]

The K is now 40 years old, has done an awful lot of work, from Ethiopia to gulf warII, and came through them all with honours. It is an extremely old aircraft that has had to work hard, of course its now going to struggle with fatique. However it still keeps going, and thats despite the best efforts of marshalls to keep it on the ground.

The J can be a very capable aircraft, if allowed to be. It is only about 7 years old, however the unservicability has not been too good, (especially when you compare it to the c17, an aircraft of similar age), but we can put that down to teething problems. Maybe one day the J will do all that is promised of it, and if it can stay servicable then it should do the job more than adequately. Its big advantage over the K is its uprated engines, but surely that is to be expected over the ageing allison engines.

My point is that i believe it is wrong to give the K such bad press when really if J model operators (the majority who were ex K model aircrew) were completely honest with themselves, they know there aircraft isnt living up to expectations and has been a poor replacement so far. But that is not to say it wont be as usefull as the K has been, but it really needs to earn its spurs before it can be put up and compared with what the K has achieved in its lifetime.

D-F

[ratty1]

It is only about 7 years old, however the unservicability has not been too good,

D-F

Are you saying that it should be unserviceable more often, or that it is unserviceable too often?
If it is the latter what engineering figures are you basing your statement on?

[dessert_flyer]

The figures based upon being around the route and it not turning up, now you know there are few figures knocking about, but if you trying to say that they have a very high servicability rate then please quote them, and im sure you will be able to obtain c17 servicability figures and compare them.

[dessert_flyer]

no cant find them ratty, maybe you could give me the link, also if you can find the c17 statistics it would be usefull. It would cheer me up no end if the servicabilty of the j has been as good as you have hinted, and would go a long way to prove that it is not the white elephant that a huge majority of the air force believe it is, (and no i dont have statistics for that either)

[dessert_flyer]

Couldnt agree with you more pass, im not saying that the j is the most unreliable ac in nato, all i am saying is that it has had its problems, ie the well known engine turbine problems, compared to the C17 which since coming into the RAF, has had very few problems. The K model has been a great servant for the us and proved its worth a long time ago, but i still believe we are waiting for the J to do that.

[propulike]

All new aircraft have had problems (a similar turbine problem occured to the K as well as it happens, the reason for 985 cruise instead of 1010. Nothing like history repeating itself is there!). The C-17 though had been operating for a number of years with the USAF before we ever though of affording a couple of them, so many of the teething problems had been cured through them. The J's servicability is now pretty d*mned good, especialy since the Eng lines were split again.

So will the J have to have any structural changes before the clearances come through, or is it going to be the same aircraft just allowed to do its job? We all know the answer. The problem (in the majority) isn't the aircraft, it's the clearance process. Every operational clearance we got in the early days was awarded retrospectively! If it hadn't been for Afg and Iraq the aircraft would probably still not be cleared to carry DAC! (Probably...)

I've said it before. I've flown them both and the J is more capable. But - at 6 years old, the J is now 15% of its way through an optimistic 40 year service life! How much longer do we have to wait?

(Not long for 3 crews from 70Sqn I hear :E )

[Loadmaster]

Fat Albert- you are a tosser.
Some of the PPrune folk seem to be taken in by pass-a-frozo. He know's about as much as the Laundry boy in Butterworth about Hercules Op's. He spends to much time listening to the likes of the jorno Carlo Koppe.
The word in Australia is that the Pom's are so unhappy with their 'j' 's that they have sold them on to Canada.

[Controversial Tim]

:rolleyes: Oh yes! That's a cracker! Have the J's been sold yet? I mean, who'd have 'em?

I heard all the nose gears had to be replaced as they'd exceeded their fatigue life after all the towing around they've had while u/s.

On the other hand, nice place, Jandahar. Never been to Kandahar though :rolleyes:

[LunchMonitor]

The word in Australia is that the Pom's are so unhappy with their 'j' 's that they have sold them on to Canada.
Not true this rumour was started last summer and has no factual basis.
Although I have heard a rumour that Marshalls are going to "stretch" some of the Mk5s...

[grey_not_green]

ooooooh, Fat Albert, you finally got a bite!

:ok:

Loadmaster, thank you for clearing that one up, there I was thinking that the 'J' crews absent from the sqn were out in Afg. Best we start a search party for them........

[Loadmaster]

Almost right green not Grey, sorry you are slightly confused.
Try looking for them at the local KFC of Macca's

[senga]

"Try looking for them at the local KFC of Macca's"
Being served by K navs and engineers....?? ;)

[Loadmaster]

Pass-a-frozo- the karlo koppe coment was a little hard

[Loadmaster]

True,

As he say's let's re-engine the F111's or buy F15's

[16 blades]

Well, it was me Vs the enitre J world for 6 pages, so I thought I'd give someone else a go for a while - I'm glad others have now waded in!

The reason for the slightly higher J availability, and the reason the J is getting the bulk of the tasking, is actually very simple and may surprise many.

It is nothing to do with the aircraft being newer, or "better" - it is because K servicing schedules are based on flying hours, whereas the J's is based solely on time elapsed. In other words, you can fly the @rse off the J with no maintenence penalty. Why this is so is a mystery, not only to me but to a friend of mine, a highly experienced eng SNCO, who attempted to explain the system to me.

The K fleet has still not really recovered from Saif Sareea, where a whole shedload of maintenance was deferred, setting a precedent we are still stuck with. We now have so many lims and deferred items in F700s that servicing is taking twice as long. And thanks to LEAN we no longer have the engineering manpower to catch up with it.

If you can: A) Get a 'frame in the first place, and B) Get it away from Lyneham, the K is amazingly serviceable for a 40-year old airframe. I can count on the fingers of 1 hand the number of times I've gone u/s away from Lyneham - and I've been around for a while.

16B

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

it is because K servicing schedules are based on flying hours, whereas the J's is based solely on time elapsed. 16B

Absolute rubbish it's calender and flying hours as well.

[US Herk]

OK - I'll stick my toe in the water...;)

All new aircraft have had problems (a similar turbine problem occured to the K as well as it happens, the reason for 985 cruise instead of 1010. Nothing like history repeating itself is there!).
Agreed all new a/c have problems, but the 985/1010 issue with the T56 is not a problem. Allison have said since new that 1010 is "max continuous" power, but if you do that, it will shorten the life of the engine. So the 985 cruise is as much about £ as it is about servicability. FWIW, USAF cruises at 970 & Allison continually push even further power reductions...

The J can be a very capable aircraft, if allowed to be. It is only about 7 years old, however the unservicability has not been too good, (especially when you compare it to the c17, an aircraft of similar age), but we can put that down to teething problems.
Comparing the C17 & the J is apples & oranges - one was procured via the standard MoD procurement as lead customer for a new plane. The other was leased with restrictions imposed by the owner (Boeing) that it not be modified. Consequently, one works as advertised & the other doesn't (yet). The J would be further along if the MoD had procured it "off the shelf" as it were rather than attempt to subsidise the British aerospace industrie...

I fly classics (albeit a bit modified :E ), but have flown the J (even if only briefly). The J is a very capable a/c & will eventually fulfill all roles well. But the J's biggest problem is not that Lockheed took too big a leap, rather, they did not take a big enough leap. It's a beautiful glass version of an old-thinking cockpit...not a forward thinking version of a new cockpit.

One of my favourite jabs at Lockheed came when I flew with their test pilots - we were flying an a/c eventually destined for the RAAF, but Lockheed were still wringing it out. After a quite impressive MOS takeoff, the pilots were blathering on about how short it could take off, how high it could climb, & how fast it could go - this was nearly 10 years ago, but I recall a 140K pound plane taking off in 1800' climbing to FL380 & cruising at 360TAS. My very first comment to them was, "That's nice, too bad ATC will never let you up there - how's your fuel economy in the high 20s?" When they asked what I meant, I replied that at FL380, you're in the heart of the jet traffic & waaaayy too slow to keep up. They were a bit quiet on that point.

ATC will likely rarely let you above FL30 - not that the plane can't do it, but they can't accomodate you. Seems to me your fuel savings is lost when you're flying 10K feet below your optimum cruise ceiling & your "fast" TAS isn't quite realised...haven't we learned that lesson?:E

*donning flame retardant suit*

[fat albert]

GnG, you're correct, it would appear my jolly jape has been taken to heart by one of the poor loves.
A little surprised that the tears-before-bedtime came from an antipodean ALM though. Loadmaster, thank you for your kind words - when's it your turn with the family sense of humour then?

Well, keep up the good work kids. glad to see the same tired, non-attributable "facts" are being wheeled out to support the immediate melting down of the J fleet. As an aside, the latest hot rumour for the K replacement (cos all the Js are away on det) is the immediate purchase of several ISO containers. These will be equipped with a bucket of piss in the corner and, for added realism, they will be sited, immobile, at Marshalls of Cambridge. A winning plan i think you'll agree.

keep it real kids

PS. senga, nice to hear you again ;)

[16 blades]

Absolute rubbish it's calender and flying hours as well.
I was told otherwise by somebody who REALLY ought to know. I'll take his word.

How times have changed....it wasn't so long ago that we were ripping into the 'Jaffia' for their Mk5 gliders.....seem to remember they got all feminine and hissy about taking banter THEN as well....

Never mind....the Mk5s won't be a problem for long....we'll have their wings soon!

16B

[flipster]

I once wrote on Pprune (early 03-ish) to ask all of you (nicely I might add) to 'stop washing our dirty linen in public', as we were all about to go to war and we really should be on the same side.

I thought I might do the same again but then, considering the title of this thread, thought better of it!

I may be wrong (I often am) but now there seems to be less genuine animosity between the Sqns and some of the posts have been very, very funny!

Please correct me but have the north and south sides located the 'Banter Master Switch' and moved it away from the 'O-F-F position'?

Keep the banter coming and good luck both for the next installment of the 'Continuing Adventures of Rompers Green'.
:ok: :ok: :cool: :cool:

[16 blades]

Yes, it's only banter, Flipster. However, some on here (myslef included, I might add!) have let themselves take it a little too seriously on occasion! Since the inception of Tac interfly profiles and joint fleet exercises, we get to see a little of what each other does - not really the case 2/3 years ago.

16B

[flipster]

I am sooo glad to hear it! Am (slightly) jealous!

[16 blades]

What, no Boeing-Airbus banter like this over at SleazyJet?

:E

16B

[16 blades]

It's the same wing, more or less. It's a straight bolt-on, bolt off - more or less. And what's more, it's the CHEAPEST SHORT TERM SOLUTION - that may well be the clincher.

And the >FL290-300 problem is mainly due to traffic levels in Euronazi airspace. And since WE are in Euronazi airspace, it's a problem our J's must have going ANYWHERE (since they have to start here!). Besides, I thought the J was RVSM compliant?

I'm told (by a J pilot) that your fuel consumption in mid-20s is pretty much the same as ours, give or take. True? This REALLY should have been anticipated, and external tanks fitted - but then, that would require somebody in the procurement chain to admit a flaw in the plan....

Sadly, the J has suffered badly from lack of forethought right through the procurement and into-service phases - it may be (slightly) faster (when allowed) and have more power, and more toys, but it is nowhere near what it really ought to be - which is a shame.

16B

[16 blades]

It's a ridiculous suggestion.
True. But this IS the UK after all, which doesn't necessarily mean
It will never happen.

People don't buy aircraft new and cut the wings off them.
No, and they don't cut HALF their engineering manpower at a time of gross overstretch, do they.......?

....nor do they spend lots of money on new real estate shortly before closing a base, do they.....?

I could go on....

16B

[16 blades]

If you stick a J and H flying next to each other, the J will ALWAYS be more fuel effecient. For starters your 300KTAS you fly at is pretty much our long range cruise. If we are at 320KTAS it's still more effecient.

Besides, a J at 26-28,000 (temp dependent) fully loaded will ALWAYS be more effecient, and faster (and can get above a lot of the weather) than the full loaded H/K sitting at 18-22K

Quite possibly, but there isn't very much in it. Your H's may use a lower TIT for cruise than we do - I think we're pretty much the only nation left putting 985 deg through the turbine in the cruise. Our normal HSC TAS is around 310-320 in the low 20s, with an average load and AUW.

Not RVSM compliant yet.. The aircraft meets the certification requirement but no-one wants to pay for the paperwork.
Now THERE'S a surprise. However good EITHER aircraft is, we are BOTH held back by a chronic lack of funding.

16B

[dessert_flyer]

Let me get this right, the J was designed to fly at the higher levels, but still isnt RVSM compliant, am i missing something here, it aint difficult to get it with a modern ac, and its taken how many years???

[Hadders]

Here we go again.
Oh, well, in for a penny......
ALL J CHIMPS ARE W@NKERS!!!!!!!
:) :E
16B

16 Blades - a master of subtlety and diplomacy smooths the waters yet again!

[flipster]

16B

We don't do banter in the airlines, old bean - it might be taken for frivolity and unprofessionalism.

Can the J do a LYE-LEU-ADA/AKR 'missile run with no tail winds to the med' day and not run out of crew duty?

[flipster]

?? Obviously not, then - just thought I'd ask.;) ;)

[fat albert]

Flipster, my dear boy! It is with great regret that i must inform you that such an onerous task would indeed be within the reach of the humble J. It would be beneath us but we could it. Sorry :)

I'm rather taken with the idea of putting the Mk5 wings onto the Mk3s - now that would be a farce multiplier :) In fact, as a deal-maker we'll throw in the urinals too. Pop em thru nav training and away you go - we'll even pop back on a regular basis and top them up :)

[16 blades]

Hadders,

16 Blades - a master of subtlety and diplomacy smooths the waters yet again!

Just attempting to get the thread off in the spirit it was intended, and to take it straight to where it would inevitaby end up! Had somebody posted a similar comment aimed at the K immediately afterwards, I guess we could've wrapped the thread up there and then......:E

16B

[US Herk]

as for you taking the Mk5 wings. Yup, that will happen.. NOT! Tear an aircraft to pieces to take the wings and put it on your old clapped out piece of .....

It was being discussed as long ago as 2002 for the SF mini-fleet. In the end, I believe they paid Marshalls to rebuild the wings on some of them after their abuse in Op BLEED (horrible op name!) and follow-on Ops...

The other reasoning (at least for the SF mini-fleet) was the belief back then that helicopter refuelling was imminent with Mk3 Chinook - the J wings have the outboard hard points under the skin required for the pods.

The Mk5 is a bit of a conundrum - original procurement intentions notwithstanding, it's a short version of a "strat" lifter...since even the Mk4 isn't operating anywhere near it's ceiling limits, flying around w/one less pallet seems even sillier. So if you're going to "borrow" the wings off some, those would be the obvious choice...

[fat albert]

Obvious to whom? My wife I imagine, given the bizarre logic you're employing....
There are plenty of herc wings going begging in AMARC if that were all that were needed.

I'm afraid the idea of scrapping Mk5s to save a few 1s and 3s is in the same league as melting down railings and saucepans to make Spitfires - fanciful and perhaps morale boosting but ultimately rubbish.

Still, it's good to see mad ideas still abound. The urinals offer still stands....

[16 blades]

I'll take your microwave, if they're on offer....

16B

[US Herk]

FA, my good man, you've missed it completely! :D

The point was merely that IF (that's a big IF :ok: ) you were to do such a thing, it would be at the expense of the Mk5.

At the time, the concern wasn't fatigue, rather helo-AR & outboard hard points...

I concur - to even talk of swapping wings as a fatigue counter-measure is madness. But that never stopped the MoD before...:rolleyes:

I think the microwave might be a suitable substitute for the nav though - keep yer piss. ;)

[LunchMonitor]

Wouldn't it make more sense just to get the Mk5 to do the refueling?
Allegedly that was the plan, but the money was taken away to bolt crap to the Klassic that will never be used enough to get a return on its procurement and engineering costs.

[country calls]

Allegedly that was the plan, but the money was taken away to bolt crap to the Klassic that will never be used enough to get a return on its procurement and engineering costs.
If the "crap" bolted to the Klassic saves just one crew and a freight bay full of pax from dying in a MANPAD initiated fireball, the return is more than justified. Having had that crap make scary noises in my helmet earpieces and then had the drivers take appropriate action, I personally think it very worthwhile.
Try directing your opinions as to why a shed load of money is spent on complete trivia in a glossy A4 format and the 101 other blatantly wasteful things anyone reading these threads could quote, instead of equipping all our AT Assets with adequate DAS.

[US Herk]

Wouldn't it make more sense just to get the Mk5 to do the refueling?
Perhaps, but this was 00-01 timeframe - J-model still relegated to auto-throttle circuit work & tentatively let loose on route - 24 SQ had just formally converted. TAC trials were well behind time with no approvals in sight.

Much discussion at the time as to SF mini-fleet follow-on: J-model, A400M, refit Klassic, etc.

So, at the time at least, utilising the Mk5 seemed a bridge too far...;)

[maximo ping]

Still is if you want to refuel in bad-guy country...
:E

[Blodwyn Pig]

It was being discussed as long ago as 2002 for the SF mini-fleet. In the end, I believe they paid Marshalls to rebuild the wings on some of them after their abuse in Op BLEED (horrible op name!) and follow-on Ops...

The other reasoning (at least for the SF mini-fleet) was the belief back then that helicopter refuelling was imminent with Mk3 Chinook - the J wings have the outboard hard points under the skin required for the pods.

The Mk5 is a bit of a conundrum - original procurement intentions notwithstanding, it's a short version of a "strat" lifter...since even the Mk4 isn't operating anywhere near it's ceiling limits, flying around w/one less pallet seems even sillier. So if you're going to "borrow" the wings off some, those would be the obvious choice...


the hard points for outboard pylons are already in place on the 'k' wings, it would just need the fuel plumbing to be installed.

[US Herk]

the hard points for outboard pylons are already in place on the 'k' wings, it would just need the fuel plumbing to be installed.

Hey, I just spread the rumours - I don't start 'em! :p

I believe there were also fatigue concerns back then as well - I do know some (all?) of the SF mini-fleet received some new wing sections later...

There was also much misinformation/disinformation about what wings the Ks had then as well...that just means confusion. They weren't all the same then...I do know that much.:p

[Hadders]

Hadders,
Just attempting to get the thread off in the spirit it was intended, and to take it straight to where it would inevitaby end up! Had somebody posted a similar comment aimed at the K immediately afterwards, I guess we could've wrapped the thread up there and then......:E
16B

Yeh - I know. Just liked the style - that's all. Being an ex K, J chimp!

[LunchMonitor]

Kainophobia
- Fear of anything new, novelty.
;)

[maximo ping]

JAYMANIA
Inability to provide a realistic assessment of ability without including the phrases "if we got the money" or "once we get the right software". See also under "OEU crews only". And our writing is bigger/newer/faster/etc/etc than yours, zzzzzzzzz!
:E

[LunchMonitor]

The difference being Kainophobia is a real word and Jaymania is made up tripe, like most stuff coming out of the K side about the J!
http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Kainophobia&word2=JAYMANIA

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

OOH...Maximo!!!:eek:

Nerve..
Touch..
Raw..

Rearrange these words!!!!

More LAter
RTM...'J' Bloke!!:cool:

[truckiebloke]

Well after looking on Stars recently, i couldnt help but notice that the 'k' had around a third of the pilots that the 'j' does... and most of them were on expeds or leave!!! easy life......

As for serviceability, the 'k' now has an awful record and is broken or being serviced most of the time... hence why we ar always told at engineering meetings that THERE ARE NO K FRAMES AVAILABLE!!!

Thats no frames for iraq, pakistan,afganistan and anywhere else we might go!!!!!!!!!!

Thats also why the OCU isnt taking on any pilots at the moment and for the foreseeable future, AND those guys are coming over to the j!!!!

(but well done to the 'k' SQN'S for doing so well in the CO's cup attendance competition this week, once again proving that you are always here and have the time to train!! welll done.)

[Lara crofts pants]

Never thought I'd say this.......but I'm so glad that I'm leaving in 2 months so that I don't have to care about you lot bickering any more.

No point having a go at the k aircrew for not having a/c to fly is there? - it's not our fault. We'd fly them if they were available. Love to in fact!

I am fully aware that the j has to cover our unserviceabilities more often than not these days - frustrating for us too, don't you know.

For those of you that crow on about "doing everything that the k does in theatre", well, quite frankly, you don't. It's just that some people do not feel the need to bang on about their jobs. Some of you Wannabies should think about that a bit. Mind you, your amusing jibes do make me laugh

LCP

[grey_not_green]

Now then, I can't believe that you're leaving just as this bun fight is getting good Cariad:

'everything the k does in theatre'? - if that involves getting w@@kered in an Aki kebab house on the way, waking up in the morning with shoes covered in Tahini. Living in sub standard sh:te tents in the sand waxing lyrical about the fact that it's just not as good as it used to be, b:tching about Navs, telling bright young things that they should have been here ten years ago, talking the 'when I was in......' talk, slagging off the other fleet to all who'll listen....then yes, we can do that.... ( but we can't make our flight deck stink of p;ss in a manner befitting the 'klassic')

anyhting else I'll get back to you, I'll just go ask 'my mate down the pub' ;)




still no takers on the urinal offers fat albert? :ok:

[maximo ping]

Nice blinkers there g_n_g...
;)

[Controversial Tim]

Gents (and Laras smellies :D ?)

By all means have a go at each other, that's why the thread is here, but like the opening post says - keep it public info only!

Although STARS and eng meetings aren't exactly secret, they're not open door either!

[flipster]

oh please do be serious!

[maximo ping]

Secret? Not even accurate;)

[Controversial Tim]

Having not seen STARS recently I don't give a d#mn how accurate or not it is. I do recall that quoting airframe availability is a little more sensitive. It was secret at the daily briefings in Laarbruch certainly.

Maybe it's just me.

[truckiebloke]

Well, i dont think i'll sleep tonight in the knowledge some 'bad' people might find out that sometimes the hercs break down and aren't available for some tasking.

You certainly dont live up to your name ''controversial tim''

[Ken Scott]

Have to say I'm a little disapointed with the quality of 'banter' on this thread. It's a bit 'playground' for my liking & I'd have hoped that you chaps, both K & J, could be a bit more adult on this subject.

The C130 Hercules is the definitive medium air transport aircraft, so good that after over 40 years it's still being produced - the only thing that can replace a Hercules is another Hercules. I had a great time flying the K, but sadly the aircraft is now dated, it can't comply with current requirements, it's upgrade programme is hampered by integration difficulties, it's performance is poor hot & high & the whole fleet should've been replaced when the first half was, with the only aircraft that could replace it - another Hercules - and the latest model of that was the J. Are the 'anti - J' contingent really to have us believe that Lockheed, with the benefit of 40 years of improving technology, couldn't improve on the 1966 model? The aircraft has evolved over its life, or do the doubters think the A model was definitive?

I remember when we didn't fly during the day in summer in the Gulf because the performance was so poor on the K. It did mean we had some cracking night(day?) stops in the Crowne Plaza in Kuwait though! Two engine performance could be marginal even at training weights, & 3 engine wasn't that great sometimes! The Siren departure was invented because of Ks struggling to altitude joining G1 on their way to Akrotiri.

The J is the same size & shape as a K, can carry the same things, but because it's got oodles more power, & if you K pilots haven't tried it you really shouldn't knock it! - it can carry more of it. Even in the middle East, at ISA +35 C, with 10 tonnes of freight & 12 tonnes of fuel, we don't have to worry about our 2 engine ceiling. Why is that a problem? Only once have I thought I could've done with external fuel tanks, because we're usually at MTOW without filling up with fuel - ie we can shift more freight around, surely no bad thing with a transport aircraft.

Try this in your K next time you're in the sim - MTOW departure from Lyneham, ISA +10 C, fail both critical engines at rotate & try & keep flying. As a pilot that gives me a certain bit of confidence - we may not have been climbing iaw Perf A, but we didn't crash!

The Eng & Nav are unfortunately surplus to requirements on the J so I can imagine them being a bit unhappy about it, but does that make the aircraft bad? Who flies with them on a modern aircraft anyway? They've gone the way of the AGs, WOPs, WOPAGs, etc, replaced by the advance of technology. Some of my best friends were/ are Navs, not all smelt of p**s, but there simply isn't a need for them on an aircraft with good modern aids, & a pilot friendly cockpit. Again, you K pilots ought to try having more SA than you know what to do with!

It's not all rosy of course, the contract was another RAF created blinder, some of the kit that was fitted to the obsolete aircraft ought to have come to us, & some of our clearances have taken far too long to come in, but the K would fare little better were it to be flight tested today. But the basic J is still a Hercules, with alot of the drawbacks of the older models sorted, & will continue to carry on the great work previously done by the K.

Meanwhile it would be nice to see the K flying again, despite its limitations, as there simply aren't enough Js to do all the work. I look forward to seeing you in KANDAHAR!

I am also looking forward to seeing some mature responses, no name calling please!

[truckiebloke]

ken scott

You couldn't have put it fairer mate!

[Controversial Tim]

You certainly dont live up to your name ''controversial tim''
Only 'cos I can't be ar$ed arguing with someone who is beneath me.

[monkeybumhead]

From your last then Tim I take it you argue with the ladies a lot then.:}

[DummyRun]

Any chance of hearing a balanced opinion from a 'J' chap who's gone back to the 'K'?...........Mmmm.

Having just returned from J/Kandahar and J/Kabul it seemed to me that both types were working quite hard and well together! however, EFATO at Tac rotate speeds at Bamian?... think I'll stick to the cr@p plastic thing with the big donks !!

[Ken Scott]

Not sure that anyone has gone back...the crew door on the K isn't big enough for me and the lamp post I'd be holding on to if they tried to send me back!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Why would any sane person want to go back, it would be like trading in your 2006 Merc CLK 55 AMG for a 1960's Ford Cortina, your just not gonna do it :p , plus the Merc smells fresher:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[M609]

Nice to see that the NATO air transport "pool" is available to help you guys out! ;)

[BEagle]

But if any of you -K or -J tactical pilots with an instructional background is leaving the mob in the next few months and would be interested in working on the A400M training programme in Toulouse this year, then Madrid and Seville from next year, please PM or e-mail me.

Same goes if you're leaving the C-17 world.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

I dont know why I am asking Beag's as I can guess the answer but don't suppose you are also looking for ALM's as well, not TAC myself but know lots who are:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[BEagle]

We were indeed looking for tactical ALMs at one time, ABIW and as a result now have 2 excellent chaps on the A400M programme. Chap in Bremen soon discovered the best local Indian noshery as well - I was there a couple of weeks ago! Other mate starts on the programme in a week or so in Tool-ooze and Madrid.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

You might have a copyright problem there!

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e66/SirPeterHardingsLovechild/Misc053.jpg



Will it have the performance of the C130 J
Taxi to take off in 100 yds, quite impressive

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e66/SirPeterHardingsLovechild/Misc051.jpg

[c130 alm]

Great Pictures SPHLC. Good to hear your flying again.

There is a Loadie who was on Ks then went Js and then did a ground tour and then asked to go back to Ks. Think he is the only person to move back to the K. I guess he has his reasons. Not mentioning any names but you will find him table diving at Sqn 90th anniversary parties and sporting huge bruises under his arm afterwards. Now that gotta smart!

[Wayitup]

Much has been bandied about which is the better a/c in terms of performance and capability...but from aeons ago when men were men and loadies were at the captains beck and call it is my feeling that the 'old galley' performed much more efficiently.....a certain loadie could even make souflee in the oven given enough time!!!! Comments anyone? banter, rude, abusive, defensive etc :} Over to you...

[Ken Scott]

I have to say that I find the galley on the J much better - dinner for 3 takes appreciably less time than dinner for 5 ( or more normally 15 these days as they all strive for route currency), 7 minutes per meal in the microwave rather than 40 odd in the oven helps helps too. The quality of the cooking has always relied more on the chef than the equipment anyway - one ALM I had the pleasure of flying with in the desert used to provide me with a full cooked breakfast just after TOC - other J ALMs used to consider a flask of hot water was outside their job spec.

[Wayitup]

Hot water....HOT WATER....good god you were spoiled man.....AH boxes and colombo packs oooohhh the height of luxury :\ plus on the 'real' Herc the oven usually failed..or it did if you popped the fuse!!!

[petop]

Im not Herc expert, in fact my experience of them is quite a few trips in the back (Germany, Kenya, States via Goose Bay, Afghanistan) but whilst i was in Kabul (2004) there was a J model down by the CIA lot (sshhh!) and we use to provide fuel for it. I got a chance to go to Uzbekhistan, to the US base there, to collect some fuel samples of that dodgy Russian fuel. I was invited to sit in the middle seat coming into land at Maz Ar Sharif (forgive spelling) and it was unbelievable the G's that were pulled coming into land. We started very fecking high and going in, what seemed like a spiral, all the way to the ground. I had a camera in my hand but due to the G, couldnt lift it to take a pic. Apparently the pilots were SF ones, well the Hereford lot used to go out with them, and i was amazed at what the plane and the pilots could do! So as to the original thread title, i myself saw nothing wrong with what a J could do! But then im a Squaddie so what do i know!!:)

[petop]

By way, when i mentioned "down by CIA lot" i mean it was parked there!!! The CIA lot would fly around in Mi 8 Hips!!!

[maximo ping]

Aaaah, the infamous J SF pilots...;)

[petop]

You big girls blouse ............................................:uhoh:

You had to be there, in fact the co-pilot even looked at me and looked worried whilst this old looking Sqn Ldr flew the thing like he was driving a go-kart!

[scitzo legman]

Oh yes! J SF!! It will come one day but it ain't here yet and certainly wasn't in '04. You can just here them now................oh yes, we're just like SF, only better..........and we've got a HUD don't you know!

[mbga9pgf]

Oh yes! J SF!! It will come one day but it ain't here yet and certainly wasn't in '04. You can just here them now................oh yes, we're just like SF, only better..........and we've got a HUD don't you know!

The rate at which they are chopping up K's, I would suggest sooner rather than later! :cool:

You are right, heaven is a HUD, but I suspect the customers we fly are more interested in the fact we can actually get airbourne with more than a landrover down the back. Oh, nowhere near MOS either.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Mb,
Don't fall for Sciatica's blether, he has already revealed on another thread that he was not good enough for selection for the J and he's probably still feeling a bit miffed at that fact:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[microlight AV8R]

Yup, absolute woos :rolleyes:

[scitzo legman]

ABIW

You assume I could be employed on the J?


I find the whole J v K thing a bit dull. Having spent some time at Lyneham before the J, and then with it, there was always friendly rivalry between the two sides of the airfield. Tac v route queens. These days it appears to be just the J folk trying to justify their roles in a smaller crew and running down the nav/eng roles on the K. THIS IS BORING! Your elitist attitude towards the K is BORING. Everyone knows you have a more powerful ac. The truth of the matter is that the back end could be ALOT better. After all, that's what AT is all about isn't it? Take a look at the big american jet we lease. Why hasn't the J got a similar system? Let's hope the A400M does. The K is still doing a good and job for some very demanding customers even with 180kg more balast on the flight deck, less powerful engines and no HUD. I'm not involved in either ac but I can still see that much.

[flipster]

Yep - this is an absolute yawn of a willy-waving contest!

Guys,

Give it a rest and get on with doing the best you can with what you've got, of course, while asking for what you haven't got but which really need.
Don't spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder at other aircraft and their successes and/or problems!

Good hunting whatever type you fly!

Always be one step ahead of the enemy!

Flip
(adopting pacifist stance and getting my coat!)

[theboywide]

Oh yes! J SF!! It will come one day but it ain't here yet and certainly wasn't in '04. You can just here them now................oh yes, we're just like SF, only better..........and we've got a HUD don't you know!

Scitzo - if you're so bored with it why were you slagging the J off not 3 hours ago!?!?!?

[scitzo legman]

Not slagging off the J fella. Just poking fun at the folk who fly them that say they're SF when clearly they are not.

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Not slagging off the J fella. Just poking fun at the folk who fly them that say they're SF when clearly they are not.

It's just a shame that it's only the J that seems to be able to support this role at the moment.

As opposed to scrap heap challenge.

[scitzo legman]

Just can't let it lie can you.

:zzz: Bedtime for me I think :ugh:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Ah Scabies all becomes clear:rolleyes:

No seat on the J so why not just slag it off eh:ugh:

And just remind us where and when on here did any J guys say they were SF:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[scitzo legman]

Apparently the pilots were SF ones,

This guy obviously just imagined it. I'm sure the crew had no part in giving him that impression.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Deary me Scapula,

What the chap actually said was " Apparently the pilots were SF ones, well the Hereford lot used to go out with them" which sort of implies that cos the guys regularly flew the mexicans he assumed they were an SF crew:ugh: :ugh:

So just remind us where a "J" guy on here has ever said they were SF........nah did;nt think so:=

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[scitzo legman]

You must be a right laugh in the bar :D

[truckiebloke]

As I seem to recall the Chinook was lifting more 'in the heat of the day' than the
'K' in Afganistan......

Scitzo, you are an a:mad: se!!

[scitzo legman]

top banter truckiebloke

[flipster]

Ratty
That was before the JSF tantrums, the truth of which is probably best left unwritten but now................
HALLELUJAH,
BROTHERLY LOVE,
I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT
WE ARE ON A MISSION FROM GOD etc
:)
Fly safe
Flip

[Controversial Tim]

But don't tac forget tac that the K is better tac because we tac can talk about tac all the tac'in time because the J can't do it and when it can it will clearly need a third person on the flight deck. Oh, hang on, they can do that now, and they're pretty accurate on the old air drop thing as well. And HOW MUCH can they carry off a strip :eek:

But SF they're SF not doing SF SF yet are SF they?

Give it a feckin' rest. The old aircraft is like an old Mk3 escort with lots of bling bolted onto it, and it's about as reliable as an old Mk 3 escort as well.

At least the K has a job as lead squadron in Afg. :rolleyes: Mind you, the K guys aren't really all that good at mission planning for us either. Got to let them have a go though, after all it must be awful to be stuck an a dying fleet.

[randomname]

CT
Why don't you do your own mission planning then?

[petop]

Deary me Scapula,

What the chap actually said was " Apparently the pilots were SF ones, well the Hereford lot used to go out with them" which sort of implies that cos the guys regularly flew the mexicans he assumed they were an SF crew:ugh: :ugh:

So just remind us where a "J" guy on here has ever said they were SF........nah did;nt think so:=

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Thanks for correctly quoting me there. As i said im a squaddie looking after the fuel that you guys fly on. It was told to me that the single herc out there, at the time, was the "SF flight". And majority of the time it was carrying the long-haired blokes around in it. I occasionally witnessed the aforementioned J flying over the BFI, at night, at about 30 fecking feet so i assumed they must of been SF pilots. But anyway they impressed me, being an outsider. The only time i have come across a K SF herc was in Bosnia 2004 (after my Afghan tour) and it was definitly SF.

[flipster]

Are you trying to get people into trouble on purpose?:(

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Petop,

What the guys are saying is watch what you say as BIG BROTHER is often watching and you could drop folks in the poo with that height call, although I suspect you were exagerating:=

Scabies.............do I hear an apology or are you gonna keep whining about the fact you no longer have a seat in the BIG GAME:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[boyassassin]

Deary me Scapula,
What the chap actually said was " Apparently the pilots were SF ones, well the Hereford lot used to go out with them" which sort of implies that cos the guys regularly flew the mexicans he assumed they were an SF crew:ugh: :ugh:
So just remind us where a "J" guy on here has ever said they were SF........nah did;nt think so:=
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Happy to agree with your statement ABIW, however, have you had a look at how certain people refer to themselves on Stars?

Standing By for incoming!:O

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Petop

Some of what you have said on here is a bit too close to the mark and don't think that because its anonymous the boys from Cheltenham can't find out who you are and prosecute under the OSA.

Please watch what you are saying - careless words do cost lives!

HPT

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Boy,

As someone who has his fingers on stars most days of the week can you please enlighten me as to what you allude to:confused:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[boyassassin]

ABIW
Have a look for yourself tomorrow if you're not too busy. I only wish I had more time, secondary duties get in the way, bugger.

[scitzo legman]

Ok here goes. I just know that the nasty man ABIW will shout at me again and demonstrate his literary genius by playing games with my name.

I think the boy may have been referring to the T2 folk on stars. Have'nt looked myself for quite some time but I'm guessing there's some reference to them being..........................dare I say it. SF. Just a guess. I could be wrong. Don't get lairy if I am. It's not a personal insult.

No ABIW. No appology from me. I know the T2 folk have called themselves SF. I have heard it numerous times. FACT. Just because there are no direct references to it on here doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Again, that's not an insult to you and your peers.

As for the height reference. We all know that the herc (no matter what variant) looks enormous when it's over yo at 250' so I'm sure our man was mistaken :ok:

Standing by for barrage of insults from numerous J peeps. Hoping in vain for some witty banter.

[TheInquisitor]

The old aircraft is like an old Mk3 escort with lots of bling bolted onto it, and it's about as reliable as an old Mk 3 escort as well.
The K is a damn sight more hardy and reliable than the J out in the desert, what with your plastic props and all. So over the course of a week or two, we shift as much freight as the plastic pig, if not more.
lots of bling bolted onto it
You're just jealous of our spinning chrome wheel trims and flourescent underbelly tubes really, aren't you? :}

[Permanent Sand]

Fact - New big lumps were working with the Mexicans before 04.
Fact - Both can do a very good job in the right hands.
Fact - New lumps are smiled at by the Mexicans.
Fact - Old lumps are getting old, but are put up with by the Mexicans.
Fact - We do appreciate all your work.

Fiction - I spend more time in the mainland than in the sand/dirt.
Fiction - I will get more than 8hrs sleep in the next 3days.

I know it's banter guys, but keep it real. You're all in the big picture.

Keep the faith,

PS

[Ken Scott]

[QUOTE=TheInquisitor;2827894]The K is a damn sight more hardy and reliable than the J out in the desert, what with your plastic props and all. So over the course of a week or two, we shift as much freight as the plastic pig, if not more.
QUOTE]

I'm afraid I don't agree with you there - having flown tours on both aircraft( I premuse you can't say the same & are therefore only talking from hearsay & ignorance) I've found the J to be far more reliable - I used to break down all the time in the K, 'sadly' the J has proved far more reliable! That is my personal experience of course.

Specifically in the desert, I've been impressed how the J has kept going despite all the hard use, although the paint finish has suffered, the 'plastic props' have not given any bother to my knowledge, & I understand that in long term use they are no more susceptible to damage than the old metal ones, another case of 'anti-J mythology' I'm afraid.

Let's be honest here, the sun has long since set on a fine aeroplane which can no longer keep up in the 21st Century, but it has a worthy successor - The K is dead, long live the J'!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Ken,

Whilst I rather sadly think you are correct I really do hope you are wrong as we need the K back online ASAP and with it every "Charlie Dimmock" the southside has back into work helping the J with it's current det regime.

Just my humble thought.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Controversial Tim]

Inquisitor,

Well spotted. Although I'm not really bothered about the underbelly fluorescent tubes I do envy the chrome wheels a little - but it's your spanking paint job that turns me green ;)

And I agree, over the course of a week or two the K does shift as much freight as the 'plastic pig' manages to shift in a single lift :p

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

"And I agree, over the course of a week or two the K does shift as much freight as the 'plastic pig' manages to shift in a single lift
Today 12:15"

Tim I think you forgot to insert "or chinook" before the word manages:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[theboywide]

I believe the last stats that I heard were that on three years on det in a sandy place the J has only missed 4 requested tasks due to unservicability. Very unreliable? I think not!

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

So over the course of a week or two, we shift as much freight as the plastic pig, if not more.


You may need to remove your head from the dark orifice it resides and have a look at the real world.

[petop]

Lads, im sure we all have stories about certain long haired people. What i have said in my previous posts i dont think warranted OPSEC warnings. I saw a lot more than low flying over the BFI that would warrant a warning but im not saying a thing. As the BFI was situated next to the civilian side of Kabul Airport then it was hardly a secret the height of these planes. More so the fact when a J took out part of the civilian departure building.
The base in Uzbekistan is no secret, in fact the reason i was sent there was to confirm the fuel was up to spec for its use in C17's on stop over prior to coming into Afghan. It was reported in the Times about a year ago the Uzbek Government wanted the Americans out.
But if you want ill offically say i make up stories to suit my audience!!!:ok: ;)

[TheInquisitor]

I believe the last stats that I heard were that on three years on det in a sandy place the J has only missed 4 requested tasks due to unservicability. Very unreliable? I think not!
Not so. Only my personal experience here, but on my most recent desert sojourn, one of the J's was laid up for several days with prop issues, undercarriage issues, and other mishaps. The other one lost sorties to anti-skid problems due to the harsh conditions of going in and out of Bastion strip.

Both the Ks, however, managed to soldier on nicely - one with a badly crazed window, no GTC and a myriad of other faults, and the other with some significant airframe damage that had been temporarily repaired. They built them tougher in them days, you see. The Js 'superior reliability' is the real myth - just 'cos it's newer and fancier, doesn't mean it works better. I'm sure alot of that is due to the fact we are flying the arses off them, but the fact remains that the K can carry alot more snags and keep going - which is just as well, given that they're falling apart!

[Ken Scott]

Inquisitor:

What do you mean, 'they built them (the K) tougher in them days'? 'They', otherwise known as Lockheed-Martin, are the same company (albeit merged) that built the J. The airframe is the same in both types, it's what goes in them that's different. Or maybe LM use thinner metal nowadays, or only one spar where 2 used to do? Even if the K was 'built tougher', the 40 years of FI used on the K would surely even things up?

Granted, rather like an old banger of a car, the K might soldier on with a couple of crocodile clips & a bit of wire 'fixing' some systems, but if 'significant airframe damage' can be speed taped over & the K flown, why couldn't the same repair be done to an identical airframe? And are you suggesting that a K with 'prop & undercarriage issues' would have kept flying where a J couldn't? Methinks you are extrapolating one specific case too far.

Once again my personal experience here, of flying both types, is that the J beats the K handsdown for reliability, & so even given that your premise of the K being able to soldier on with more faults were true, it would have to, to be able to fly as often!

[petop]

No, it was dropping some dignatory off apparently at the civvy bit (civvy terminal at one end, mil other side of the fire station) and as it taxied away, it "clipped" part of the infrastructure.

[safe single]

and that makes the j cr@p because..........?

That could have happened to anyone, have we now dissolved into a 'who messed up more' slanging match? Or can we go back to type bashing instead?

[petop]

Ok. So why have you tried to associate low flying with this incident? You are not Aircrew and do not have eyes with radar altimeters in them, capable of telling the height of an aircraft. Why dont you go back to being a soldier and leave the flying to the professionals.

I WASNT TRYING TO! I was merely commenting on the fact that ref OPSEC, im sure other things went on, apart from low flying, people get touchy about mentioning like planes taxying into bits of building!
But i dont have to be Aircrew to say whether a aircraft is low or high, as a matter of fact the Belgian Army sentry post, adjacent to the BFI, which was 20ft high complained to the German Airport CO, that 2 of their antenna were knocked down by the draft produced from the aircraft. So in my eyes, thats fecking low!
I, by the way, didnt complain being the site commander, thought it was quite good actually!!
So your comment about being a soldier....i never said any different:= and i do leave the flying to professionals...Bell-end!

[boyassassin]

Always on leave in wiltshire, did you look at stars?? You've gone very quiet on the subject. I think it is you that owes sctizo an apology, just my thoughts.:=

No doubt you'll have an informed reply as usual.

[truckiebloke]

"Both the Ks, however, managed to soldier on nicely"

I'm under the strong impression that the Chinook is lifting far more than the 'k' is in Afgan and that the 'k' decided to clip a sand dune on a departure from a strip as it could not get airborne due to performance issues....

As for reliabilty, how many 'k' frames are actually working and doing a job? I'm not talking about flying around Wilts either(no need to post the answer to this,but the answer is obvious)

I standby to be corrected.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

=truckiebloke;2829480 ...and that the 'k' decided to clip a sand dune on a departure from a strip as it could not get airborne due to performance issues....

I standby to be corrected.

Yep, you're talking bollocks.

You can stand down now.

[mbga9pgf]

Yep, you're talking bollocks.

You can stand down now.

As I understood it, the K is strugging to get airbourne from Lyneham these days... apparently the 0.8% runway gradient off 06 is providing a bit of an obstacle!!!! :} :} :}

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Boy,

Been night flying, TAC course so with my head being on fire I forgot to look.

One thing I do know is that 24 ALM's are not guilty as charged but I will endevour to check the others tomorrow, prior to getting veah veah drunk at 24's beer call. If your there look me up and I will get the beers in:ok:

As regards an apology for the scabby one...........he either smells of wee or tows a caravan so it aint gonna happen:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[scitzo legman]

Hey, I ain't gonna hold my breath! Don't suppose the 'ALWAYS AT HOME AND NEVER ON DET WHEN THERE'S A BEER CALL ON' will ever change his spots. Know who he is, everybody does, know his sort, they'll always be the same. The young lads are working their tits off on the J and there's a number of free loaders taking the pi$$ out of their good nature. More power to you guys. I sincerely hope the burden you carry slackens soon. You guys deserve a break. I sincerely mean that. Could ABIW fall into the mould of the former? I wonder. If the cap fits........................................................ ............

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Dear oh dear scabies,

Not having a seat anymore is really making you bitter and twisted you silly little man:ugh:

If you really know who I am, and many on here do, please feel free to come over to 24 and introduce yourself. I will show you the stats for 2006 and the projections for 2007 and you can then wander off to eat your humble pie as you contemplate the foolishness of your last post. But we both know that aint gonna happen:=

Pour yourself a cup of "Man Up" and stop whining like a big girls blouse:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[truckiebloke]

ABIW

I know exactly who you are and what you have done in your career!You are known as one of the best loadies , and someone I've always come to for advice.Once again, Scitzo is talking p1ss... which evidentaly he smells of too...:D

Scitzo is obviously a very uninformed and useless individual who cant see the facts that are staring him in the face about the k, along with others....