Unions

[tepson121]

Has anyone have any experience in dealing with the AFAP or TWU?

I believe the TWU has just taken on the case for pilots at an airline in QLD?

If people can share their good/bad experiences it would help, rather than their opinions.

[tepson121]

judging by the lack of response...............no-one belongs to a union here?

[scrambler]

AFAP is the normal union for GA and some bigger. TWU, thought they were for truckies

[snoop doggy dog]

TWU look after quiet a few Airlines in Australia. There membership as far as pilots are concerned, range from Qantas mainline to smaller operators in regional areas. They are good at organising people, helping them organise themselves and looking after their members.

[Ando1Bar]

What support does AFAP offer GA pilots, in particular instructors? Will they go in to bat for you if there was an incident or accident, or some other problem (such as a sexual harassment case from a student)?

Not that I'm planning on any of that to happen, but it's good to know what the union can provide before joining (and the website doesn't say a lot).

[Friction Nut]

What about employers that consistently, conveniently forget to pay their pilots and ending owing them several hundreds of dollars. What can AFAP do to help recover this owed money.

[Lawrie Cox]

Like any union we are only ever as good as our membership base. To answer the question about the role of pilot bodies in Australia the AFAP is the general body and AIPA is for the Qantas mainline as per our rules. The AFAP represents Fixed, Rotrary, Aerial Ag and has done so since its formation in 1947. The overseas branch split away in 1981 to form AIPA.
As for the TWU there have been many approaches to join and most have ended tears for those involved and that will not stop them trying from time to time. Included in this is the many times that we have complaints from past TWU members about the debt collectors they send round.
Pilots are fairly strong in their views not to be controlled by outside bodies (such as the ACTU, ALP etc...) and as such have jealously guarded the independence of the body.
I am more than happy to answer individual questions but it goes without saying that we represent our members in many and varied forums. There are times that we lose and those who are bitter like to criticise but we do have elected pilots who run the organisation and set the policy it is those pilots who should be recognised for getting off their backside and doing something for this industry.
To answer the specific questions we do and have run claims against employers who do not pay the required rates or conditions. Again not all have been won for one reason or another. It is up to you whether you as a professional pilot want to be a member of an organisation set up by pilots for pilots.
Regards
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots

[snoop doggy dog]

Not sure where you get off on saying," Included in this is the many times that we have complaints from past TWU members about the debt collectors they send round," Laurie Cox. What the hell are you talking about?

The TWU is a Union and it looks after its' members. They don't use excuses like, we are under resoursed..., or we don't have this or that. They get the job done, and the TWU knows how to build power in the workplace.

Laurie Cox, if your AFAP can't look after pilots', don't take their money. Street sweepers earn more than most pilots', especially the ones' in GA. And there is no BS attached....:yuk: I hear a lot more complaints from pilots' about the Lack of assistance the AFAP provide. Just look at the GA Award...... It's pathetic.........

Good try to try and rack up some business for your cash strapped AFAP Laurie Cox........:yuk: You guys need all the help you can get !

[Ando1Bar]

Lawrie,

This question isn't as hard hitting as the pay subject, but going back to my post...

What support does AFAP offer GA pilots, in particular instructors? Will they go in to bat for you if there was an incident or accident, or some other problem (such as a sexual harassment case from a student)?

The teacher's union covers teachers in such circumstances, will AFAP offer similar assistance?

Ando

[Lawrie Cox]

Ando1Bar: The short answer would be yes but as every case has an individual aspect it may be dealt with by the Finance committee in respect to the overall course of action. And to be more specific i have represented an instuctor and airline pilot in such circumstances.

snoop doggy dog: You have a view and your entitled to it although i suggest just a little jaundiced. Perhaps you didn't win so instead of being proactive within the pilot community you are committed to the TWU. I have had many meetings with the TWU over the years and what i have said is a fact. Without naming the individuals i can name the companies they came from such as Flightwest, RFDS and Skippers. The bottom line is that the TWU is a union but it is not a tech crew union and they have readily admitted that they do not have the experience in our area. As for your assertions about the AFAP i would suggest you get your facts right first and put your name to it. Like i have.

Regards
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations

[Bazzamundi]

Any chance the AFAP, AIPA, JPC and others can perhaps at least work together for a start, and perhaps consolidate their relationships for the benefit of all professional aviators in Australia?

If past bickering/differences and all the rest could be put aside, it may help slow the race to the bottom being experienced in Australian aviation in the past few years. Given the industrial reforms being proposed, the bigger united group could at least have a better prospect of protecting people compared to what there is now. Combined resources can only be better.

[Lawrie Cox]

Bazzamundi: No problem with what you have put. However that is over to you as members of the respective groups. For the record there are many competing views out there at present and it will take a lot of unity to get it together. As a personal view it will be necessary for a lot of individuals to be pilots first and leave their corporate loyalty at the door for the benefit of all pilot professionals to progress. It certainly doesnt help the cause when pilot groups try to cherry pick and talk about unity by spending thousands of dollars on lawyers at ten paces as we are doing at present. The case today is that individual groups are making their decisions as it affects them you cannot dictate to the groups (but you can work with them and bring about change for the better over time).
At present the companies are enjoying the divisions at our expense.

OVER TO YOU AND THE FINANCIAL MEMBERS OF EACH ORGANISATION TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

Regards
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations

[Bazzamundi]

Thanks Lawrie. I for one am letting AIPA know that we would be better off all joining forces and pushing together in a combined direction. At the end of the day, I personally believe that we shouldn't have the situation in Australia where there is such a discrepancy between pay rates and conditions of those who fly similar equipment. The QF argument that they are the benchmark for standard, and the others who believe QF are grossly overpaid is getting us nowhere. This fight is just costing everyone.

If everyone pushed for a common goal ie. every union agreed the going rate for a 737/320 is $XXX and other like equipment grouped together, then maybe this could be a start. The whole issue of paying for endorsements and training should also be attacked by a united front in order to have any chance of improving the current situation. The regionals are also where a big improvement needs to be sought as well, and these people need to be placed among the group of people we are all happy to stand up for. The flow on would then be positive for GA - at least if we could make aviation an attractive career prospect for kids to dream of once again.

At the end of the day, I am not the only member of AIPA who has this view - so do most people I fly with. The sentiments expressed on these forums, particularly with regard to those who attack and slander those from other unions and organisations, is generally only a very small vocal minority view (certainly true of QF, also true of most others with other companies I know).

As for legal costs with unions fighting each other, this is the first thing that needs to stop.

[Pine Tree]

Bazzamundi your suggestion is the only way to go. With due respect to your comments Lawrie it is really up to the union and/or pilot council executives to initiate the move by sending out a questionnaire to their members along the lines – “Would you be interested in the amalgamation of the AIPA/AFAP and Pilot Councils as one union?”. A combined union could include sub-sections to cover International, Domestic, Regional and GA.

In the meantime, Lawrie wouldn’t it be appropriate for the AIPA and AFAP Executives to get together and see whether Bazzamundi’s option is feasible and go from there?

[Capt Claret]

shuffle, shuffle, puff, pant, push, shove, scramble. Right, soap box in place - deep breath, and here goes ....

Having grown up in a Liberal household I was very anti union as a youth. I didn't take kindly to being made to join the TWU when employed by Linfox in the 70's. I liked being approached and forced to sign and pay by a big burly boof-head even less. Watching the antics of Norm Gallagher and the BLF and his ilk didn't endear me to unionism either.

Years later having observed many around me I've come to the conclusion that workers need an advocate and most of us are no good at being our own advocate. Enter the Union.

In my time as an AFAP member I've never been dictated to. I've sought advice from time to time and always been attended to. My only criticism stems from being involved in a dispute with a colleague who was/is also an AFAP member. I believe that one of us should have been farmed out to another industrial advocate, provided for by the AFAP, rather than The Feds trying to be advocate to both of us - A chinese wall as they said at the time. But as that's my only criticism after 15 years or so of on/off membership, I don't think that's too bad.

I often hear complaints about the ineffectiveness of unions such as The Feds. A union, be it The Feds or the TWU, or whatever can only be effective if they have widespread membership and if their member's take an active part. For folk to sit back, have no input but to complain, seems rather counter productive to me.

Pilot's conditions are deteriorating. Many howl about it. Very few are prepared to stick together for the betterment of the profession as, in general terms, we're all too keen to look after number one, and we want some other group to support us, without us supporting said other group.

IMHO, a united front from pilots is years away. Sadly.

On the other hand, for those of us advocating setting an agreed rate for a particular type, imagine the howls of protest if Harvey Norman and the Good Guys and all the other similar Dept Stores got together and set the cost of goods, and deprived us pilot types of our shopping around and bargain hunting? Eegads.

out of breath, shuffle, slip, plop, don hard hat

[Bazzamundi]

Here is a starting point. Don't know how true it is but I am hearing some nasty things about the proposed DOTARS changes making it impossible for any operating crew to have a family member on board an aircraft. Instead of one union urging its members to email someone, while another union wants its members to do something else, how about you (and we) all get together and work out a united approach to knock some common sense into these morons in Canberra.

Rome wasn't built in a day, but taking small steps together (ie. QF, VB, J*, Regionals) over something that affects us all equally can only give us a better chance of a positive outcome.

Will send an email to AIPA urging them to start talking. Perhaps if one issue can be dealt with from a combined approach, just maybe further challenges can be taken on.