Jetstar Pilot Council Snubs AIPA

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

Tuesday, February 28, 2006
Australian International Pilots Association
Locked Bag 747
Botany NSW 1455
Attention: Captain Ian Woods
President AIPA
Cc: All Jetstar Pilots
Dear Captain Woods,
It is necessary to write to you to clarify the position of the Jetstar Pilot Council and it’s support of the proposed variations to our existing EBA.
A majority of the Jetstar Pilot Council members, of which there are five, have agreed to support and promote the proposed variation.
The Jetstar Pilot Council is the elected party which represents the Jetstar Pilot Group on all industrial matters, and does so with a clear mandate.
We have taken the decision to support these changes following a process of negotiation which occurred over a five month period.
These negotiations resulted in the drafting of the proposed variations which we believe provide the mechanism for working with the company in securing the best opportunity for continued and sustained growth for the pilots we represent .
At all times the negotiations between Jetstar management and the Jetstar Pilot Council were cordial and constructive.
Both Parties remained mindful of the each others position in respect of our professional engagement and the continuance of a close working relationship, regardless of the outcome of the negotiations.
I have now on several occasions made this position clear to yourself and other members of the AIPA Committee.
The correspondence which you have recently composed and distributed via electronic means to our pilot members is misleading in that:
1) I have made it clear to yourself and other members of the AIPA Committee that at no time during negotiations with the Jetstar management team did myself or any other member of the Jetstar Pilot Council feel in any way under duress, nor were we threatened or coerced.
2) I have clearly stated to yourself on more than one occasion that the possibility of the company using a North American crewing company, was an assumptions made by myself as a result of exploring the availability of suitable pilots.
These explorations were effected through discussions with personal associates not related to the Qantas group.
This option or outcome was at no time proffered by the Jetstar management team as a crewing solution.
There exists no evidence to support your assertion that any Jetstar Pilot Council member has expressed either to yourself, nor to any AIPA Committee member, any feeling of threat or duress.
I have spoken to each Jetstar Pilot Council member today and have confirmed that no such conversations have taken place.
Your call to our pilot body through the unsolicited correspondence of recent days is not welcomed by the Jetstar Pilot Council, and we will advise our pilot group not to respond.
AIPA’s claim that it has the interest of every Qantas group pilot at heart is quite simply too little too late.
It is perceived by those Jetstar pilots with whom I have had the opportunity to contact, as a thinly veiled attempt to disrupt our progress in securing the opportunities presented to us.
Most feel it is hard to believe that AIPA could represent or act on our behalf in a fair and impartial manner which would secure the best result for the Jetstar Pilot Group.
AIPA would have been afforded the opportunity to attend as observers, any negotiation between the Jetstar Pilot Council and the Jetstar management team, had any pilot in the Jetstar Pilot Group who is a full and financial member of AIPA, requested such attendance.
To the knowledge of the Jetstar Pilot Council, no such request was made.
Your claim that the variation is in itself deceptive in respect to it’s references to “Wide Body” not “Long Haul” is an insult to the entire Jetstar Pilot Group.
Throughout all negotiations and subsequent discussions with the pilot members, it has been clearly understood that this variation reflects the introduction and operation of Wide Body aircraft into the Jetstar fleet.
It is not a variation in respect to long haul or international operations by Jetstar as Jetstar already conduct international operations.
Should you continue in these attempts to disrupt the negotiations and subsequent vote, we of the Jetstar Pilot Council believe your committee is seriously and potentially irreversibly threatening this opportunity for Jetstar pilots to gain access to future growth and the inherent employment security.
We would expect you to retract those comments in your recent correspondence identified herein as misleading and incorrect.
Your Faithfully
Rick Heaton
President
Jetstar Pilot Council
Is this the beginning of the end?

[Break Right]

With that sort of response let them have the flying.:mad: If they believe that wide body doesn't mean long haul on other types than the A330 for as little as 160k they are all fools!!!! Sad very bl00dy sad:ok:

[Fox3snapshot]

Have no idea what this one is about, not intersted really...just want to make it known that the whole operation is a scam and the Government is one of the principal scammers!! As my original thread was shut down ("Jetstar you are a disgrace!) I thought it only fare to remind everyone that they are in fact.....a disgrace!!

4 days in the sinbin for you...you're right you have no idea.

Ethereal Woomera

:*

[DutchRoll]

You just don't get it..do you?

4 days sinbin for you too.

Ethereal Woomera

[haughtney1]

The continued erosion of T & C's is a product of a weak pilot body (whether you call it unions or not) You Jet* guys and gals are the masters of your own destiny on this one. How many of you out of interest paid for a type-rating? How about those of you that would quite happily take a pay cut so you could get the base you want?
Be strong..stick together, ultimately you can be sure that any concessions that the management types get out of you..will be reflected in their bonus payments:hmm:

[Keg]

As a dad, I'm very conscious of labelling the behaviour, not the person. J* pilots themselves are people like the rest of us and the proposal beinb put to them does not make them a disgrace. It is a poor deal but that does not reflect on the genuineness of the actions of the people doing the negotiation. It does show that they are significantly out gunned but again, this does not make them a disgrace.

So, from a mainline pilots perspective, can we knock it off with the name calling and just label the deal for what it is. Woeful.

[Going Boeing]

TD

What have you achieved by posting this on an open forum? This is just muck raking and will hinder any negotiations and offers of support to the JPC. As Keg says, now is not the time to play the man but play the issues. We need to have all lines of communication open at this time and support the JPC in achieving the highest possible remuneration for flying the A332's and subsequently the B787. The salary that they agree to will set the standard for Oz based airlines for the future.

[Break Right]

Going Boeing
We need to have all lines of communication open at this time and support the JPC in achieving the highest possible remuneration for flying the A332's and subsequently the B787.
The JPC have set the rate and have closed all lines of communication. The package that you are voting on is the deal that the JPC and Jetstar have agreed too. Both the Feds and Aipa offered their services but the JPC new better didn't they and now look at what you have to vote on. Absolutley disgraceful.:mad:

[Agent Mulder]

I originally posted this on another thread.

What no one cares to define is what is the "Market"?
There are 300 JQ Pilots, 400 VB Pilots and about 100 NJS Pilots flying jets in Australia. Total of 800.
There are 2500 Qantas Pilots flying jets in Australia.
Total 3300.
Qantas Pilots are 76% of "the Market".
Therefore, by any reasoned argument, Qantas Pilots are the "Market". The other 24% are earning below market salaries and therefore are to be supported in their attempts to bring their salaries up to meet the market, not the opposite.
Standing by for reasoned argument.


I do not agree that this is the conditions for Qantas Pilots going forward, and not just for the reason stated above.

Qantas Pilots have a binding Certified Agreement. Binding on the Pilots and the Company. They cannot ignore it! Nor can they throw it out without substantial consequences detrimental to the business.

What Qantas Pilots have to do right now is send the message to the Board and others that whilst Jetstar Pilots are prepared to work for the conditions they have negotiated, Qantas Pilots are not.

Any amount of posturing by the management is worthless if the Pilots determine that they are prepared to stand up for their negotiated terms and conditions. Show them that you are prepared to negotiate, but you are not going to be dictated to on the future of YOUR profession and the quality of life of your family.

You are 76% of the Jet Pilots in Australia. You have the numbers and the ability to control the outcome.

Look for fat in the Certified Agreements that make you more productive i.e. increased divisors, less restrictive open time allocation, home transport for being paxed in business class (please!), just to name a few. Remember an increase in productivity comes with an increase in salary. Negotiate, Negotiate, Negotiate.

Tread carefully, don't be brash, and for peat's sake stop abusing others for negotiating a deal to the best of their ability. At least they are negotiating, and at least they have a deal. They did the best they could with what they had. Deal with it and move on. You do not have to work for those conditions.

Whenever anyone hears someone saying that this sets the benchmark for the future, ask why? It is a fundamentally flawed argument that 300 JQ pilots set "Market Rates" for 2500 QF Pilots with a fleet size 600% larger. It is a conditioning line used by managers to attempt to make you believe their position. Remember to ask them why they think that, and stand by for a blank stare or a fluffy stumble of words.

You know what you have available to deal with, there's a deal to be done and it can be as painless as you want it to be. Be cognisant of the fact that if you don't change, you may lose control of the agenda.

It's up to you to determine how YOU want your future to be.

[Chris Higgins]

I would go one further than that and say that the Jetstar Pilots Council has a right to recommend a vote in favour; but they're not the ones doing all the voting. It would seem that there are only five on the council.

The crews actually doing the flying and not getting cozy with management might have other ideas!

[Break Right]

The crews actually doing the flying and not getting cozy with management might have other ideas!

I really hope this is true!! :sad:

[Chris Higgins]

We had a union at Netjets that ran to management and tried to ram a new contract down our throats. We rejected the contract, conducted an inquiry into our Local Union Affiliate..then fired the lot of 'em!

Less than 12 months later with a newly elected leadership and the unified support of 2,200 pilots we got:

1. $US 40, 000 signing bonuses

2. Elimination of all potential training contracts, bonding, and pay-for-training.

3. 30-48 percent raises across the board.

4. Scope protection to eliminate others from flying our passengers.


Netjets used to have pay-for-training, a union that was not solid in its representaion focus and poor morale.

Now the place is a winner!

I have one question for "Rick" who seems to be placing an unreasonable focus on "his" personal fortunes if this agreement goes through.

What will stop QF Group from starting "Fanstar" next week and getting another group of merry men together to drive wages below those that you have just agreed to?

When friends of mine vacation in Australia, they ask me if they have to worry about sharks. I tell 'em,

"Only the ones with two feet."

[jaded boiler]

Mulder, you should take the time to familiarise yourself with the government's wonderful new IR legislation "going forward".

When the mainline pilots' certified agreement, which I believe is "binding" only until January 2007, or anyone else's for that matter, expires, everything is up for grabs.

An employer is then permitted to unilaterally give 90 days notice that existing terms and conditions are unacceptable, and will no longer be complied with.

If after that time no new agreement is reached, all the employer legally has to provide is a minimum salary of approx $484 per week, 38 hours of work per week averaged over 12 months, 10 days per annum sick leave, 4 weeks annual leave and 52 per weeks parental leave.

[regitaekilthgiwt]

Keg and others, I was not having a go at the Jetstar pilots at all, just the JPC. I would hope and believe the the rest of the Jetstar pilots will think like Chris and let management of both JPC and Jetstar know by voting accordingly...

[alidad]

The only comments that i will make on the signatory to the letter (Rick) are from observation from knowing him for a number of years.

1. he has had more worldly and diverse life experiences than most mainline pilots put together;

2. he is as cunning and as streetwise as anyone I have met;

3. I hope the management countered their fingers after shaking hands with him- there may be a couple missing....

:E

[murgatroid]

Exactly Alidad,

So is there an ulterior motive for representing the J* pilot body? Like perhaps, a management position?

[TineeTim]

WorkChoices legislation has no place in this debate. Mulder is right.
Qantas pilots are the market. We fly the 787 under OUR deal, not theirs. At this stage it seems the JPC is going to vote this deal up. I, and I reckon a lot of others at QF, will never work under the conditions they have negotiated. If my contract is terminated and I'm offered those conditions, I will quit. I have the ultimate power over whether I turn up to work. I have a valuable skill and I'm not selling it cheap- I'll sell used cars before I accept a crap deal like this. Good luck to J* guys, youre going to need it.

[B A Lert]

For as long as Implulse has existed in its various incarnations - JetStar International being the latest - and no matter what equipment it has operated, pilots employed at that airline have been lampooned, derided, castigated and generally ridiculed by mainly AIPA members as the latter saw the new boys on the block as a threat to their jealously protected terms and conditions. The show appears to be now on the other foot.

Why shouldn't the JPC agree to the proposed conditions that have been negotiated in good will by one hopes mature adult professionals? If the agreement gives these guys largely what they want in return for their labour and skills, then so be it. If it means that Qantas Mainline pilots get shafted down the line, then so be it. No one needs be in any doubt as to the AIPA position: the brothers are outraged not because they really think the JPC is selling out but really at the thought that the end of the ride on their gravy train is about to end - and not before time. AIPA and its members are so egocentric that nothing or no one else matters save them. Their track record stands as irrefutable evidence. When you get to the bottom line, Impulse and co. have been able to do for many young and not so young pilots that wasn't possible elsewhere.

Murgatroid comments "So is there an ulterior motive for representing the J* pilot body? Like perhaps, a management position?" Really, but he should look no further than the procession of AIPA types who have crossed the divide for much personal reward at the expense of those who they purported to represent.

TineeTim...is modesty one of your stronger attributes? You probably have much to be modest about! Good luck in the car yard on the Parramatta Road as you'll sure need it with such an attitude.

[Pine Tree]

I would argue that QF pilots are not the benchmark – you are having yourself on if you believe that. The new IR Rules are the benchmark! Individual companies and their shareholders will decide appropriate wages with their employees after negotiation as the PM wants. Whether this is right or not is another matter. The QF Board initially recognised the opportunity to increase profit by the introduction of an airline named Jetstar with lower overheads to compete with LCCs like Virgin. This has added to increased profits for the QF group with primary beneficiaries being shareholders and customers who get reduced fares. At the bottom, some may argue are employees who may or may not receive salary increases.

The QF Board have now seen the opportunity to expand internationally with Jetstar at the expense of QF mainline and again at lower operating costs. It begs the question whether Jetstar will take over completely in the next 10 years and be renamed Qantas at a later date when what we now know as Qantas has folded. No ‘I’m not dreamn’. I wish I was. Some QF pilots may not want to accept what is happening, but this is the real world we live in now and it’s happening! A united body is the only way to prevent further deterioration of wages and conditions as a pilot.

A genuine yardstick for pay levels can only be achieved by ONE Union to negotiate on behalf of all pilots who fly jet aircraft and maybe regional aircraft. Otherwise, with the AFAP, AIPA, JPC, and other pilot councils negotiating separately for separate airlines, the situation will deteriorate further. The fallout is seen in the initial post to this thread where one body is being told not to interfere. The AFAP and AIPA must now become united and pilot councils in various organisations, incorporated into the new union.

[404 Titan]

Guy’s,

It is so obvious as an outsider looking in that most that are criticizing the QF pilot group are probably management trying to stir the pot. Think before you take any notice of them. My advice to everyone in QF and JQ is to ignore them. This is the oldest trick in the book in the divide and conquer game and management are using it to the fullest.

[coitus interuptus]

404 ,CORRECT.

all before delted(psuedo managers) are doing their best to drive a wedge between the various pilot bodies. Ladies and gents, don't get sucked in by their garbage. Stick together and drive the bargain as hard as you can. Most would not realise how far the respective companies can and will go to secure the deal. They have a lot more room to manouvre than they will ever let on. That is the fact. They can and will pay you the right money, but you absolutely MUST bargain aggressively. Keep your pilot council on their toes and never take anything for granted.

DON'T LET PARASITE MANAGERS RUIN YOU LIFE! LET THEM KNOW WE ARE JUST A LITTLE SMART (well the last 5 words are accurate

Ethereal Woomera

[Agent Mulder]

Titan,

Couldn't agree more. Managers and Green Eyed monsters most likely.

The new I.R. Laws are not the market. They are a guideline for Industrial relations going forward till the next election, subject to change and constant scrutiny.

The Market is the Market, full stop. What is the market paying on average for an Airline Pilot in Australia. That is why there are terms like below Market Salaries and above Market Salaries. It is not the lowest price that someone can pay someone to do the job. That is a management tool used to attempt to mislead.

Do not fear the new I.R. Laws. The consequences of an employer cancelling a Certified Agreement and trying on the scenario illustrated by Jaded Boiler would be disasterous for an Airline like Qantas. I would even go as far as to say it would destroy the company and cost the careers of all (Dixon etc).

I would make the point to Qantas Pilots again.

You must negotiate to secure your futures. This does not mean pay cuts. This means getting rid of outdated work practices and increasing productivity. It does not mean accepting the bare bones offered to Jetstar. They have nothing to negotiate with as their Certified Agreement has no flesh on the bones. They will fight for years to fatten it up. In the meantime all Qantas Pilots have to do is take a little bit of Weight Watchers to theirs and look for efficiencies.

A 5% improvement on a $500m payroll is a $25m annual improvement to Qantas' bottom line. Jetstar Pilots would have to work for free to provide that sort of saving. Think about it and get proactive in driving change. After all, it's YOUR FUTURE.

There is a fantastic old saying that goes
"I worried my whole life about things that might happen, and some of them actually did!"

You are in control of the agenda, don't lose it and stop worrying about what might happen. Make it happen on your terms!

[numbskull]

agent mulder the market is not Australia but the world. QF will only be happy when they pay the lowest wages in the world and even then they be looking to see if anyone will do it for less.

In many industries employers are importing asian boilermakers,welders etc for short term contracts because there is a "skills shortage"

There is no such thing as a "skill shortage" just a "pay shortage" were skilled people will not work for peanuts.

You should be scared of the new IR laws because if you will not work for the deal that is offered the employers will scour the world for someone who will. There are a hell of a lot of people worse off than a pilot in Australia and as such that means there are a lot of people who would do your job for less.

Don't get me wrong,I'm on your side. Just don't be complacent about the enormity of the changes that are engulfing the aviation market.

[chemical alli]

talk it up what about eastern/qantas link they have tried in vane for years to join mainline but to no avail as precious mainline didnt want to risk bid seniority.but come a pay freeze their included under the qf banner. if anyone has a right to whinge its them .all i hope is eastern pilot action group gets off the ground and gives you all a run for your money.

[Dropt McGutz]

I can't remember the exact details but Eastern were offered slots in mainline a number of years ago but the AFAP challenged it and lost resulting in the subsequent withdrawal of those slots.
You Jetstar pilots should realise that you fly excellent equipment and deserve to be renumerated more. Don't sell yourselves out. Remember, if management can pay themselves what they do, they should pay you a damn site better.

[vigi-one]

Its was long ago but not AFAP stopping progression but AIPA. Lets hope times and attitudes have changed.

[murgatroid]

Mulder, AIPA has made it very clear to QF management that they are willing to look at productivity increases. The problem is the door is tightly shut. J* management do not give a toss about mainline. What is beneficial to the entire QF group is not what J* are interested in. J* look after J* fullstop. If only Dixon and Co. could see this.

I recall a recent QF statement "Jetstar is our main priority". If I were a shreholder, a frequent flyer, a QF employee, or even just a believer in an Australian Icon - I would be very worried. QF seem more than willing to sacrifice QF for J*; for nothing more than short term gain. The problem is that J* is so price sensitive, about all it can compete on is price. That is a BIG gamble for QF. J* was meant to be a defensive ploy, to keep others out and it is very good at doing that. But, it should be strictly controlled and limited.

Anyone that thinks J* operating Avalon - Perth is not draining QF Melbourne - Perth, is crazy. Where to with J* Int? QF mainline will likely contract to SYD, SIN, LHR, LAX, SFO, HKG. Want to use those FF points to fly QF business ADL-LHR; the first part of your journey will be J* Int ECONOMY. Want to use FF points to go to a holiday destination - fly J* only. FF's will leave in droves. It goes on and on.

Anyway, back to the present. J* pilots will vote as they choose. However, the should seriously look at uniting with AIPA, regardless of the vote. They may be a minority for a short while, but they will gather power and have available significant resources that will definately be required in the future. Just look at the QF shorthaul guys - a minority group that has number 2 slot on the A330 and every one of them has a command - not bad really.

[dirty deeds]

Guys
Once you agree to fly these new fancy jets for nothing, have been away from home too often because your conditions are s@#t, fed crap food and treated like an un-glorified bus driver, and then decide to apply for Dragon because atleast you get paid a decent salary that means you can feed a family of three and send them to descent schools, it will all be too late, think long and hard about the bigger picture guys, because once you fall into their trap, it's all over and it's not coming back.

These new IR rules are designed for self serving, splintered and fractional idiots like we all are, and you mark my words, whilst we are fractionalised like this we will continue to be played off against each other until oneday when your child says "Dad I want to become a pilot", our response will be, "Son, I can't afford it, your better off becoming a lock smith!

It's all over in this country, and the sooner we all realise this and start to band together, our professionalism and conditons will become so pathetic that not only will our management laugh at us, but so will the public.

Start looking overseas guys, because the Down Under and God Zone has become the Down on Your Knees and D@#K H@#D Zone.

[amos2]

Yeah!...I'm afraid that deeds is correct, as much as I hate to admit it.

Oz has become a third world country with a fifth world aviation system!

But, hey! You lot were "agin" the 89ers so you get what you deserve!!!

Learn to live with it!

[footloose]

This is why a new representative body is needed to look after us all. In short we need to be saved from ourselves because time and time again we fall prey to the fear and intimidation tactics utilised by management. When we have fellow pilots negotiating EBAs there is a lot of pressure to not lose the opportunity to crew new routes/aircraft etc and the dark side know this and use our fears against us. Good Luck to us all about to vote on EBA conditions.

[Capt Basil Brush]

I nearly fell off my chair when reading the letter from Rick above.

Did he also hand out blinkers to all the J* pilots?

J* pilots, can you see what's going on here????

I think the rest of the world can!

He is heading into management faster than a B787 if he gets this deal through the pilots.

He (and maybe the rest of the JPC) will NOT be the ones on this deal for long, and will NOT be the ones flying the line on these crap T & C's.

J* pilots, THROW AWAY those blinkers - DONT put them on.

The future of being a pilot as a decent profession for current pilots, and ALL FUTURE pilots in Australia is in your hands.

Please think carefully before voting on any such deal.

BB.

Very close to the bone Capt...I have left it as stands but knock off the vitriol...unless ya want 4 days too?

[dirty deeds]

Just for the record amos2,
I am not an 89er and this is the sort of attitude that needs to be dropped, we need solidarity and we need it now, otherwise its www.cathay.com or www.draginair.com here we come, I can hear the hallow halls of our avaition crew rooms now, I am sick of these rosters, I can't afford to buy a house in Sydney now, I never see my family (but the aero-sexuals will still love their
A330/B787/B777), this food is S@#T, when are we going to get a good bidding system, remember when we got our jeps paid for, remember when the ground staff respected us, remember when they used to ungrade us, remember when I thought this was a great way to earn a living and the F#$king list goes on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What needs to happen is we all grow some balls and shove it straight to our management, call their bluff, stick together and watch our profession, sorry Bus driver occupation begin to resemble something close to what it was and what is should be! The time is now or never, otherwise see you in HK where atleast the money resembles something consumerate to our Bus driving occupation.

[amos2]

Well, you go for it deeds...

but rest assured, your mates will let you down!...

the record is there for all to see!

[Woomera]

I have just spent significant time moderating this one thread...at least two 4 day bannings and several more that were very, very close.

It won't take much more in the same vien to trip my BS circuit breaker and just bin the thread.

If you want to be treated as adult professionals start acting like same.

[AnQrKa]

Sorry but had to laugh at this.

www.draginair.com here we come

followed by

I am sick of these rosters
I never see my family
this food is S@#T
when are we going to get a good bidding system
remember when the ground staff respected us

Yep, going to KA will really solve all of those problems. NOT.

[Woomera]

AnQrKA

Perspective is a wonderfull thing:ok:

[aircraft]

Has it occurred to anyone that Jetstar are only offering what they can afford to pay? Or do you think that money grows on trees and so Jetstar can afford whatever the pilots demand?

Does anyone realise that Jetstar is a "low cost carrier" and that "low cost" equates to "low revenue" which in turn means that there is not a lot of money to pay the pilots with?

[Keg]

Hey woomera, given that you're handing out sin bins, is there anything in your bag of tricks about binning people for blatant, moronic and idiotic wind ups? Perhaps you need to think about that one! :E

Aircraft is your first customer! :yuk:

[Chimbu chuckles]

I think aircraft is possibly a little closer to the mark than many would like to admit.

Jetstar is positioned in a VERY price sensitive market at present...which means it doesn't take much of a fare hike to send people back to the inter/intra state trains /coaches....that has in fact happened already in one case and they quickly lowered the fares again.

Anyone who suggests the JPC are industrially naive or not following the views of their pilot body or not seeking input from other very senior and industrially savvy pilots within J* just doesn't know WTF they are talking about...it's that simple.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

That was another typical aircraft comment. He has no real conception on what happens out there and I assume that has something to do with his age. He's probably still squeezing pimples...:E But I'm digressing. Have a look at how many passengers an A330 holds then do the sums to see how many of them would be paying for the pilots wages, maybe three of them at $1000 per ticket? That's roughly 1% of the load.

[Point0Five]

Where does Jetstar fly for $1000 a ticket?

You've obviously put some effort into making your calculations, can you please provide a breakdown of your assumptions to reach the conclusion of 1% (passenger numbers, salary, ticket prices etc.)

[B A Lert]

Enema Bandit's Dad].....Have a look at how many passengers an A330 holds then do the sums to see how many of them would be paying for the pilots wages, maybe three of them at $1000 per ticket? That's roughly 1% of the load.[/I]

Some of you blokes have no idea about airline economics and it's clear that your understanding extends no deeper or further than the quantum of the bottom line of your next pay slip. As well as a pilots salary, there are many items known as on-costs and these include matters such as
- payroll tax
- holiday pay
- long service leave
- employers contribution to superannuation (which in the case of many Qantas Mainline pilots is way in excess of not only the Govt decreed 9% but also general community standards)
- sick leave
- training costs
- uniforms
- accommodation, allowances and ground transport
and so the list goes on...and on....and on.

Next to fuel, crew costs are one the highest component of an airlines direct operating costs. That said, why wouldn't any responsible and prudent management do all it can to minimise them? There's not a lot it can do about fuel costs and government charges (en route and landing fees) but a company can have some control over the variable charges. Just ask anyone in a senior financial role at any airline, and don't forget that a dollar that is unspent goes straight to the bottom line and either increases the profit or minimises the loss.

[OhSpareMe]

OK. So 5 passengers pay for the TEch Crew. Next.

[kdf155]

If i were GD i would be laughing.
If he can buy out the ex head of A.I.P.A and make him the Chief pilot of Qantas, what makes you so sure the same ego boosting offers are not on the table for the Impulse pilots council to get a good deal through for QF.This method has worked for many other companies outside aviation namely B.H.P and Rio Tinto.People have a price, especially pilots.

A divide between A.I.P.A and the IPC plays right into the hands of management and they ARE aware of the divide.

Who gets the flying in the long term is not as important as the conditions agreed upon.I pray that Jet* pilots think with their heads and vote down a ****ty deal.The QF group need Jet* guys on board.Jet * pilots have the leverage in this round.They dont want QF pilots. Qf pilots only got the Australian Airlines jobs at good money because they had a great A.I.P.A leader.So effective infact that he was appointed C.P by dixon himself.

Unity is required in both camps to look after everyones interest.Australia is not getting any cheaper to live in.Dont let management "sell down" the importance of your role as an airline pilot. Most of the public are S@#$ scared of flying.
It's time we united and looked after everybody.Otherwise, sadly, we all face a race to the bottom.

[Transition Layer]

I've been trying to "play the ball and not the man" this last few days and this is the best I can come up with.

The JQ pilots really need to sit back and have a breather for a second and take it all in. Things have come a long way in the past 5 years but unfortunately their pay hasn't.

It was not all that long ago these blokes were flying a 1900D up and down the NSW coast, no autopilot and no flightie to bring the coffee. Next thing they'll be flying an A330 on international ops with 270 odd punters down the back.

The question that needs to be asked, has their pay gone up appropriately? Measly pay rises to go 1900->717->320. The A330 will be carry an extra 50% of the pax load on top of the A320, flying internationally in all sorts of conditions.

Good on em for such a meteoric rise and before any of you have a dig at me, I'm not criticising experience levels (I'm hardly in a position to do that!). That's not my beef and I don't think it's true anyway. All I am saying is that I fear in about a years time some of them will say: "It all happened so quickly, I'm worth more than this!!!"

The time to realise that is now!

TL

[Woomera]

And you succeeded admirably...hot heads take note...it IS possible to make your point without slandering good people...and the J* crews are good people just making their way in the world.

[Datum]

I agree Transition Layer....

If I was a JETSTAR PILOT I would be looking at my situation in the broadest possible sense...

I would be attempting to remain cognisant and acutely aware of the possibility of hidden agendas. Therefore, I would source information from as many RELIABLE sources as I could. AIPA and QF Mainline Pilots could be a source of information....albeit to provide a different perspective to the JPC and other JETSTAR Pilots...I would then sit down with my closest mates / family (not just Aviation related either) over a few beers and talk it out. They may also provide a different perspective...

WHY - Because my single VOTE will effect my working conditions, lifestyle and general level of happiness as long as I remain a JETSTAR Pilot...:ooh: Further, this VOTE will effect the Terms and Conditions under which many other pilots will be employed in the future. They too, like me - will have worked very hard to initially get a job with JETSTAR...they will have paid for all their training prior to joining - to then be told they will need to fork out AGAIN - for another endorsement....to then realise their salary will not even allow them to do that adequately....:yuk:

I would consider very carefully whether the Terms and Conditions proposed in this 'Agreement' will attract the calibre of pilot I would wish to be my part of my crew when things are not going so well (ie: critical emergency over foreign country in poor weather).....Moreover, will JETSTAR be a happy, motivating and fun place to work given the conditions proposed...will my mates (especially the junior guys) have enough money to enjoy a slip now and then?

I just urge all JETSTAR Pilots - Please consider this issue very carefully. Be open minded enough to listen to what others have to say. Finally, unlike management - try to avoid making your final decision with only yourself and your back pocket in mind! :ok: Good Luck.

[Capt Claret]

And if I was a Jet* pilot I'd be so sick and tired of the condecension directed at the group and being told what to do by people looking at their interests and not mine, that I'd be inclined to say stuff you all and take what I think I can get. :ouch:

[Transition Layer]

stuff you all and take what I think I can get

Which is exactly what you and your colleagues at NJS did a little while back, eh Capt?

TL

[Tankengine]

OK, here we go : I apologise in advance for over simplification - I am only a Pilot!
Many people commenting on a bad pay/condition contract on offer,
some commenting on lack of unity - there is another way!

In 1992 the integration of A/Q pilots was bloodless due to the "Y" seniority list plus future aircraft allocations by % of "type of flying"

I propose that AIPA and Jetstar pilots [and why not Eastern and NJ while we are at it!] get together in the spirit of the "Y" and create a "TREE" list!

Jetstar and mainline maintain seniority on current types and combine on future types [B787] on a % of mainline/jetstar flying. [ie : if 25% of 787s go Jetstar then 25% of slots go to J* pilots]

All current pay and conditions confirmed, future aircraft p/c @ Qantas longhaul award. [no diff in pay for pilots on an aircraft type]

Future Jetstar domestic rates by negotiation between management and pilots with the full backing of mainline.

Companies told "sorry, this is just the way it is - if you want to bring in OS labour then your looking at >3000!!!!"

It worked in 92, why not now?:ok:

[hotnhigh]

Great idea tank but the company wont allow it to work. Secondly, I'm sorry but what will Jetstar pilots lose if it's a no vote. If the current management speak of another pilot group being available, well lets bring it on. Lets see... A330 guys for an 18 month contract, and then what.... pay for their endorsements for the 787's. C'mon.
I confess to being biased in this thread as I'm junior mainline. I have also worked with current jetstar pilots with overseas airlines. These blokes have flown with similar operations that Jetstar Int ops will be. I trust they are warning of all the dangers incorporated into the current agreement.
Will the current Jetstar command upgrades disappear with a no vote? Via the current MOU don't you have an opportunity to move to mainline if you want? A yes vote simply puts more than a few nails in the coffin of the mainline conditions that you could have access to.
And just to re iterate... the far, far majority of mainline pilots want this to be successful for the Jetstar pilot group. You control the destiny of future T&C for the entire QF group.

[Angle of Attack]

As Capt Claret said there is so much vitriol being directed at the J* pilots, this should really stop. It is fair to voice your opinion on the patheticness or otherwise of the deal being offered. (Yes I think it is woeful) but its a bit rich when the mainliner's voted up a moronic EBA7, especially with many justifying a yes vote on the principle that "It will show our co-operation and flexibility for a look in at the J* flying! ) haha what a joke that was! The management succeded in intimidating the mainline group who had no duress or potential of job loss at all at that time, and now your saying the J* guys and girl should reject theirs? Come on it's a bit rich. And no Im not a J* employee, the sooner mainline starts refusing to extend tours of duty completely the better. Im sure there is a spine somewhere is there? I havent seen any so far.. I know lots of J* and lots of mainliners and with a few exceptions they are all good people, lets remember our common values.... and dreams.

[Going Boeing]

Ryan Air and Easy Jet are two long established LCC's based in Europe who pay their pilots very well (and work them accordingly). The argument made by "aircraft" that Jetstar is not in a position to pay its pilots more is simply BS. Pilot costs are a miniscule part of the cost of operating commercial aircraft.

[Capn Bloggs]

Oh we are touchy aren't we, TL?

At all times the negotiations between Jetstar management and the Jetstar Pilot Council were cordial and constructive.

What? No blood on the table? No yelling, no screaming down the phone at the boss? You guys aren't trying! :)

Seriously, forget those QF jokers. For the sake of the rest of the industry (such as the 1900, D8, Brasilia drivers like some of you were a just few short years ago), please vote NO. We need you to keep the Ts and C half reasonable.

[avion345]

ONE INTERESTING THING WITH ALL LOW COST AIRLINES, JQ INCLUDED, IS
THE CONSTANT DEMAND FROM THE LCC MANAGMENT FOR EVRY ONE IN THEIR AIRLINE TO ACCEPT LOWER WAGES AND CONDITIONS, WHILST THERE DOESNT SEEM TO BE ANY DROP IN MANAGEMENT PAY AND CONDITIONS!!

IT SEEMS LCC MEANS LOWER WAGES FOR EVERYONE "EXCEPT" THE MANAGEMENT!

[Rostov]

In actual fact Joyce's pay packet is much lower than Dixon's. They are both CEO's.
The A320 fleet manager is on about 60k less than his QF 737 equivilant.
In fact I think you will find most of the managers are on less money than their equivilant. Yes, I was surprised to find that out aswell.:\

[Alien Sex God]

Please, for the sake of us out in there in GA striving for airlines, vote no. We don't need GA terms and conditions for the rest of our careers.

[Baxter Dewall]

Capt Bloggs,

From an outsider looking in, do you think that whatever the outcome of the Jet* vote, that will have flow on effects to the regional ops ie D8, Braz, saab, etc. Those guys/girls are already lowly paid mate, half of nothing is nothing!!!!!!!!!!

History has prooved that pilots in particular don't give a rats about anybody else but themselves. The origins of this start with the sprog CPL holder who says "I'll fly your C210 for nothing because I need the hours"
What is happening here is just a much more advanced :yuk: version.

Here endeth the lesson!!

[Trylandher2]

Can you imagine any other industry advertising vacancies at 100K less than market rates. But here in pilot land we are lining up in droves!
Remember you are not just signing up for yourselves but for the future of all future and present crews in other airlines and GA alike.

[aircraft]

You guys just don't get it.

Like all other businesses, the salaries of pilots are determined by the economic (market) conditions. Because the economic conditions fluctuate, but the salaries are much more rigid, there are times when the two are out of balance. At these times, pressure will come on (seemingly all by itself) to restore the balance. Like how the fin on your aircraft acts for example!

In fact, given the rigidity of pilot's salaries and the current imbalance between salaries and economic conditions (not just in airlines but in many areas of GA), you can expect that future terms and conditions will have remuneration levels that are much more flexible. A good manager would make this a goal when negotiating EBAs.

Capt Bloggs said:
From an outsider looking in, do you think that whatever the outcome of the Jet* vote, that will have flow on effects to the regional ops ie D8, Braz, saab, etc. Those guys/girls are already lowly paid mate, half of nothing is nothing!!!!!!!!!!
Capt Bloggs, the salaries of the pilots to which you refer have already been set by the economic conditions. When those salary levels next change, it will be as a result of a change in the economic conditions - not by anything to do with Jetstar. They are not in any way affected by salaries at Qantas or Jetstar! It may appear at times that there is a connection between airline and GA salaries but in reality it is the economic conditions that are common to both.

Aliex Sex God said:
Please, for the sake of us out in there in GA striving for airlines, vote no. We don't need GA terms and conditions for the rest of our careers.
ASG, you seem to think that Jetstar is capable of paying the pilots what you think is a good salary. Do you think that money grows on trees? As a low cost carrier, just where do Jetstar get the money to be able to do that?

Rostov said:
The A320 fleet manager is on about 60k less than his QF 737 equivilant.
Very good point. This helps to illustrate the different economics between LCC and traditional carrier. Here is a tip: whatever that percentage works out to, you can apply to QF pilot salaries with the result being what the Jetstar pilots can reasonably expect.

[hotnhigh]

Aircraft, your last paragraph is the biggest load of rubbish. How many low cost carriers have you worked for? Why is the start salary of an Easyjet captain in the UK around pay point 5 or 6 for a BA captain on a similar fleet. You don't know what the hell you are talking about.
Keep the illusion alive!:mad:

[Trylandher2]

Comparing Dixon's pay to AJ's pay packet is nonsense, Jetstar is a subsiduary of Qantas - Alan works under Geoff.

With regard to differences in QF737 and JQ320's fleet managers pay, how many aircraft/crews do the respective managers look after?

[speeeedy]

Rostov,

you no not of what you speak.

GD and AJ are not equals. GD is CEO of the whole group, AJ is CEO of a small part of the group. A better salary comparison would be AJ versus JB and there you will see there is little difference, perhaps we can use the % difference between AJ's and JB's salary to establish a set rate between QF and JQ pilot salaries......I Wish.

The QF 737 fleet manager looks after 50+ aeroplanes, enough to justify the difference in salary, but on top of that he is also the 767 fleet manager as well!!! I think the JQ guy is getting paid too much when you look at it this way, but again happy to use their realtive pay rates versus size of responsibilty to work out a realtive pilot rate between the two groups.

So..... no, management are not feeling the pain, just the drivers.

[B A Lert]

For all the doubting Thomas's who still believe in fairies at the foot of the garden, take a look at the story in today's Sydney Morning Herald at page 22 headed " US pilots hold out for smaller reductions". This is about pay negotiations at two 'legacy carriers'. Qantas is also a legacy carrier. Pilots conditions at these carriers were negotiated when not a lot thought was put into what was agreed as airlines then could charge what they wanted, fuel was just another small cost and so on. With hindsight, they lived in a fool's paradise as evidenced by the demise and/or bankruptcy of several of these legacy carriers and the economic basket cases that several remaining carriers are: Pan Am, Braniff, Eastern, Sabena, Alitalia, Air France and so on. Even Delta, a paragon of best practice a few years ago, has been driven to the wall, by amongst other factors, high wage costs and pressures that are inappropriate in today's world of commercial aviation. The world has now changed and like it or not, a lot of the world's pilots - chiefly those employed by the legacy carriers - are still living in that antediluvian world. Before their eyes, the world is literally passing them by.

On another note, the Jetstar boys and girls have come a long way in a short time. Why wouldn't they jump at the opportunity to expand their horizons even further even if they don't 'enjoy' the same generous terms and conditions as their comrades at Qantas Mainline? If they think that what they are to be paid is fair and reasoanble, who is anyone else to argue? Perhaps only those who see the end of the largesse they enjoy??.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Now we know. Sunfish has a son called aircraft.

[EPIRB]

I believe that the problem with America is that there are too many legacy carriers for the market.

[B A Lert]

I believe that the problem with America is that there are too many legacy carriers for the market.

You are no doubt correct. This is because the US deregulated its domestic market as a result of which many new, lower cost start-ups emerged. Some have long since gone like Peoples Express but the nimble footed have prospered. They have prospered because of a combination of low costs, flexible work practices and high productivity. These factors are somewhat missing from a large part of Qantas's workforce, including aircrew. They sinply don't know what they are because of the rarified and insular atmosphere in which they work and mix. Hence, the development and expansion of Jetstar. The experiment with Australian has been an apparent failure as the savings that were expected to be generated did not eventuate, partly because their pilots are no less expensive than those at Qantas Mainline. They may not have the gargantuum support as Mainline but the salary and associated on-costs are pretty much the same. In fact they could be higher as many of their crew advanced to a higher category by going across to Australian.

[EPIRB]

High productivity is missing? There have been quite a lot of QF pilots who have cracked the 900 hours. I'm sitting on 850. Show us some facts where those points that you made are missing amongst the Qantas aircrew as you state.

[lowerlobe]

I would like to know where B A LERT works?

Apparently he thinks he is paid no more than is necessary and earns every cent that he is paid and that there is no way he could be more efficient to the company or whoever his employer is.

That is unless the company decides to outsource his section and position and pay someone in a country with third world pay and conditions to do his job. Then he would be very indignant I imagine at the thought of someone replacing him for less money especially as he is so efficient and cost effective.

Wonderful isn’t it that so many people look at others and without doing or experiencing and understanding the position job consider them overpaid.

The bottom line is and always has been that people look at crew going to and from work and are jealous mainly because they are stuck in some cubicle and only fly somewhere on holidays once a year if that.

[404 Titan]

lowerlobe

As I have said before, as an outsider looking in, most on this forum criticising QF crew are probably management trying to splinter you. So far they are succeeding but if you now realise the game they are playing, and I mean all of you from QF, J*, and DJ you can play them at their own game. It isn’t that hard really when you know the rules they are playing by.

[B A Lert]

....There have been quite a lot of QF pilots who have cracked the 900 hours. I'm sitting on 850....

Stick hours or credited hours?

lowerlobe...attack is the best form of defence, eh? I ask you, who'd be jealous of aircrew if the life and job is as hard, arduous, poorly paid, and as difficult as you paint it? :{ :{

Let's get one thing clear - no one is advocating that third world rates of pay and conditions apply in Australia - just conditions and pay levels that are NOW appropriate for the work actually performed, and in line with real market rates. There are literally '000s of young people to do your work: after all, how long does it take from day 1 to first trip as a flight attendant?:= :=

[The Professor]

“Can you imagine any other industry advertising vacancies at 100K less than market rates”

What exactly are the market rates you refer to and how did you arrive at them? A fat, bloated, highly unionized carrier such as QF may have represented market rates back when all other competitors (from a labor market perspective) were fat, bloated and highly unionized, AN and TN.

The other players in the oz airline industry today are nothing like the airlines of old. Why on earth would you expect QF to continue to be the benchmark for employee salaries within the industry? Clinging on to outdated inflexible work practices is as silly as continuing to operate Constellations.

“Why is the start salary of an Easyjet captain in the UK around pay point 5 or 6 for a BA captain on a similar fleet. You don't know what the hell you are talking about.”

Because they have to pay such salaries in order to fill cockpit seats. The UK/Europe market is vastly different from Australia where there are always more pilots looking to move up the ladder into jet airliners than there are seats. This is not the case in Europe. I recall the days in the UK when there were no qualified pilots looking for airline positions – NONE. Has this ever happened in Australia?

The bottom line of the airline industry in oz – it is what it is. Virgin appear to have no trouble crewing aircraft at the “below industry” rates they offer so bitching about the state of play is really just wasted breath.

[Datum]

......There are literally '000s of young people to do your work: after all, how long does it take from day 1 to first trip as a flight attendant?:= :=

B A Lert - There would be literally '000s of young people..' wishing to work for Macquarie Bank....do you see the Bank lowering their pay packets to retain or attract good quality people (some of the best in their industry)?...They won't - they understand that to grow and develop their organisation within a 'very competitive environment' they NEED the BEST people they can possibly get...

This particular part of your response is flawed....

If the QF Group (including JETSTAR) wish to attract the best pilots in Australia and the region - they will have to continue to provide competitive Terms and Conditions....

As an example - look at the entry level pilot into OZJET v JETSTAR International....in OZJET they would enter as an FO and start on around $75,000....the proposed JETSTAR International deal would see an entry level 'Cruise FO' start on approx $50,000....I know which company I would be going too given the choice...:yuk:

The QF Group do not just compete with Australian GA operators....

Do you think many Military pilots will leave the ADF to join JETSTAR International - I seriously doubt it....

If the T + C continue to be reduced....Experienced and Good Quality pilots will go to Emirates, Cathay Pacific, Dragon Air...etc...:oh:

[404 Titan]

Datum

If the T + C continue to be reduced....Experienced and Good Quality pilots will go to Emirates, Cathay Pacific, Dragon Air...etc...They already do and in far far greater numbers than are returning. Australians in all walks of life are deserting Australia in droves because of the pittance they can earn there and the strangulation of the taxation system. It is only now that some in government are starting to realise this. I personally think they are too late. The horses have already bolted.

[EPIRB]

BA Lert, common sense would obviously say that is stick hours. Now how about some examples as previously asked please?

[Chris Higgins]

Very true; if you consider fuel, taxes, the exchange rate and the cost of housing, I really don't see how the Jetstar proposal is really even an affordable lifestyle to be gone all that much. You better not be divorced or get divorced...there'd be nothing left at all.

[Rostov]

Speedy your right, we shouldn't compare pays with those guys because they work under different conditions for different companies. Just like the Tech crew eh?

[lowerlobe]

B A LERT…

Attack is the best form of defence….you did not tell us where you work and if you consider yourself absolutely 100% efficient…and that is one of the problems……What do we base our definition of efficient on ?

Obviously BALERT wants us to base our jobs on his perception of the world and it’s economics.

Have you ever flown an aircraft or worked as a F/A ? I imagine you give a lot of people advice on how to do their occupations as well.

If your employer decides they can get someone else to do your job for less pay what would be your reaction ?

If the company achieves their objectives with crew then who do you think is next ?

Did I describe my job as you did ? NO

It is tiring and difficult especially when you have to put up with someone who thinks they can re-invent the wheel ,knows how to do your job better than you and can probably cure unemployment as well as find a cure for terminal diseases but that is their problem not mine

Unfortunately it is human nature to feel resentment to others who are perceived to have a better job and lifestyle whether that is the case or not.

Management does read this forum and probably do try to stir trouble but one day will have to face the same issue with the company outsourcing their jobs.

[Gnadenburg]

Datum
They already do and in far far greater numbers than are returning. Australians in all walks of life are deserting Australia in droves because of the pittance they can earn there and the strangulation of the taxation system. It is only now that some in government are starting to realise this. I personally think they are too late. The horses have already bolted.



Trouble is. Australian low cost pilots think it's a good deal to live in the Middle East with Arabian friends, clearing less than $6000 AUD. Or, flying for start up carriers in Hong Kong, without getting any rental assistance and being paid a good deal less than incumbants.

You would have to be a moron to leave Australia for these conditions. But they do! A realisation there is nowhere to go, worth the loss of lifestyle, will hopefully see apathetic pilots in Australia, take a heightened interest in matters relating to their profession.

[404 Titan]

Gnadenburg

To be fare on EK and I won’t go into the rosters they are flying because I know it is a s**ty deal, most of their expenses are paid for by the company and there is no tax. With regard to the new start ups in HK, anyone who has gone to one of these outfits or is seriously thinking of going should think twice. Housing is very expensive here as well as other services with the exception of telecommunications. Food is at least twice the price and education for your children is prohibitively expensive. Oh and did I mention if you have a spouse he/she isn’t entitled to work. This makes for a pretty miserable existence in one of the most expensive cities in the world to live in. From what I have heard they and the other startups on the mainland are having considerable trouble finding the necessary experience they are wanting and those that are there are looking for a fast way out. Time will only tell what happens but this city aint getting any cheaper to live in.

[avion345]

"So..... no, management are not feeling the pain, just the drivers."

Spot on speedy, and the lower wages are for light attendants and others at JQ,

As a manager in the QF group you can be assured that unlike the pilots/flight attendants at JQ, AJ will be on a very similar salary to a manager like JB with similar roles/responsibilities,not 100000 less!!!

many JQ managers were transferred from QF, and im sure are still on QF pay rates!!!

Thats not to say that the reality of the new market may mean that QF pilots pay is too high and JQ closer to the "market" rate?

But if true,this concept is only applied to pilots/flight attendants not to management!!!

[Gnadenburg]

Granted 404 Titan.

However, it's never your Philpot mates that fill the seats, it's Oz or Kiwi enthusiasts. The familar GA induced mentality of, undercut, climb a rung, undercut and climb a rung. Trouble is, top of the ladder is fast approaching!

You can't be fare to EK either. Where is the logic of a VB or J* pilot leaving Australia, despite a "loose" Arabian promise of a 380 command, and having to draw on personal savings to survive. And that's after he has sold off his assets a few years earlier to pay for his 320/737 training.

These guys have got to be aviation enthusiasts- not professionals!

[404 Titan]

Gnadenburg

Almost all the guys that I know that have gone to EK have been lied to by management about commands and training roles and are sick to death with the rostering but non are struggling financially. That said do I think the EK package is good? No but it isn’t as bad as you may think either.

I agree the GA mentality is creeping into the airline environment. Most airlines in this region are after training captains and experienced captains and first officers not someone straight out of GA. They are finding it very difficult to find them on the packages they are offering which are woefully inadequate by any standards. One carrier here has just deferred again its start date because it can’t find enough pilots and can’t get any aircraft. Says a lot really doesn’t it?

[OBNO]

Jetstar EBA variation mentions Cruise Fo's and a salary of 60% of FO's salary. Will Jetstar be recruiting off the street for these positions, or is this the equivalent pay if you are rostered for cruise support duties only. If recruiting for these positions am I correct in saying it will cost you $30000 for the initial training to then earn about $53000?!

[Lagrange]

Gents,

The JQ pilot group is going to vote the International EBA amendment up!

Why? Because they trust their management's word. JG told them at start up that once the airline got going he would give them parity with DJ. Trust them.

Why not. There are a couple of questions that warrant thinking about.

1. LCC's by their very nature will have a lower cost structure than a legacy airline. Therefore we should expect the JQ rate for an A330 to be lower than QF. My humble math suggests the rate should be more like A320 plus 25%?

2. If JQ cannot cope with an A330 rate of A320 plus 25%, how viable is the business case? Should the JQ pilots be looking around? India needs pilots.

3. Why should the F/O's fly the A330 for A320 rates? Will there really be promotion for you? It will cost JQ to train you. Does the EBA discuss that terrible pilot word "seniority", or will the appointments be former AN mates first, then any hazelton lads (JG) and the externals who pay for their endorsements? Where and when will JQ F/O exercise their seniority, or don't you care? Are all captains going to the A330 in seniority order? If not, when can you expect to be given a go? Will you have to pay for your endorsement? Are you sure JQ is going to give it to you? Is that in writing, or is it on a verbal agreement form?

4. Have you asked AJ about AWA's? Have you got a clear answer or was it a little hazy? The LCC model would suggest AWA's is the right solution.

5. Are you sure about your accomodation and allowances OS?

6. What about crew rest on the all Y class aircraft? have your read the CAO requirements and are you sure they will be complied with?

7. Who is going to look after you if you have an incident / accident overseas? Maybe you should talk to AIPA or one of the QF1 crew.

8. Are your really safisfied that the JPC has got the best deal, or have they been "had", again, by Oldmeadow, JG and the leprechaun crying poor?

Some thoughts that should be going through your head!!!

[Capn Bloggs]

Aircraft,

Yes yes yes you made your point some posts ago. And you quoted me incorrectly.

Baxter,
From an outsider looking in, do you think that whatever the outcome of the Jet* vote, that will have flow on effects to the regional ops ie D8, Braz, saab, etc.

Read the post above yours. If Braz and other drivers are on poor conditions, then at least they can aspire to the bigger jets/outfits which pay more (provided the JQ guys get a reasonable deal). BTW, NJS have scrapped the 30k pay-for-your-endorsement. You know why? Because they aren't getting the people they need. They are bypassing NJS to go to other bigger operators. That is the effect that pay deals like the one the JQ pilots will vote on have on G/A. The whole industry lifts. Perhaps not at the bottom, but up a bit, it does.

[Big Jan]

To all of you who feel that the Jetstar EBA variation is an attack on your pay and T & C's, there is something you can do about it.Instead of expecting the Jetstar crew to stand up for you, why don't you all take the initiative and do something about it.I suggest you all down tools this weekend to support a rejection of this terrible document.If this happens I am sure the Jetstar crews will support you by voting NO!
Before you dismiss this idea as ridiculous (which it is), Just think, this is exactly what you expect the Jetstar crews to do for you.
How does that saying go "walk a mile in someone elses shoes".

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

"this is exactly what you expect the Jetstar crews to do for you."

Hardly. The J* crews have full-time jobs flying A320's around. There is no pressure on them from that front at all.

All people want for them is to reject this crap deal and get a better one... for the sake of the profession.

[Tankengine]

Jobs are available in India for experienced Captains endorsed on A330 for US$18k per month! QF mainline 737 training Captains are interviewing for jobs there on leave without pay as well for around US$13k per month. If so many guys are out there for Jetstar Int jobs why do the Indians need to offer so many TAX FREE Dollars??
The deal offered here is Crap!

Big Jan, some of us are prepared to do that but ALL must do it.

[Chris Higgins]

"this is exactly what you expect the Jetstar crews to do for you."
Hardly. The J* crews have full-time jobs flying A320's around. There is no pressure on them from that front at all.
All people want for them is to reject this crap deal and get a better one... for the sake of the profession.


Yeah, and if flying around A-320s on their existing agreement is so bad, who do they have to blame for that?

[Datum]

......If so many guys are out there for Jetstar Int jobs why do the Indians need to offer so many TAX FREE Dollars??
The deal offered here is Crap!....

Well said Tankengine - The situation emerging in India, China and other parts of the world will only get worse before it improves....

This does NOT mean our Terms and Conditions in Australia should get worse before they get any better.....

Australian Pilots are relatively highly trained and experienced aviators, whatever your particular background (GA, ADF, cadet..) Your valuable skills and knowledge should be rewarded....Therefore, don't sell yourselves out...

For the sake of all Professional Pilots in Australia and those wannabees - VOTE NO.

THIS DEAL IS CRAP! :yuk:

[The Professor]

“All people want for them is to reject this crap deal and get a better one... for the sake of the profession”

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears to me that the main argument being put forth by QF pilots is that by accepting a lower pay scale, Jetstar pilots are setting a precedent that could have flow on effects to QF mainline. The concern being that QF management will then reduce the salary levels for mainline crew. Therefore, Jetstar pilots should simply out gun the company and refuse the offer until a more substantial package is on the table in order to protect the conditions of the mainline employees.

Lets take this step by step. Over to the QF pilots for the next exchange.

[Alien Sex God]

And what sort of career prospects will it make for thos e of us still in GA that want to progress? I'd make more money labouring than as Jetstar FO.

[Gnadenburg]

“All people want for them is to reject this crap deal and get a better one... for the sake of the profession”
Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears to me that the main argument being put forth by QF pilots is that by accepting a lower pay scale, Jetstar pilots are setting a precedent that could have flow on effects to QF mainline. The concern being that QF management will then reduce the salary levels for mainline crew. Therefore, Jetstar pilots should simply out gun the company and refuse the offer until a more substantial package is on the table in order to protect the conditions of the mainline employees.
Lets take this step by step. Over to the QF pilots for the next exchange.


If you look at the wider picture, it is far from just QF pilots who will be affected.

[Datum]

One other point I would like to make....

The last QF Mainline Long Haul EBA - EBA 7 was voted up by just 58%....

Hardly a strong YES Vote....why...becuase it was a CRAP DEAL for junior pilots.

Again - many Senior Pilots voted YES because a number of the 'offsets' did not apply or directly affect them....Unfortunately, providing their junior pilots with POOR LEADERSHIP (a common trend in QF)....I understand a 3% increase in pay would mean quite a lot to a Senior Captain (when you fact Super into the equation etc).....But I bet when you started in QF the Senior guys looked out for you!

My point is that if EBA 7 had of been voted on by only the more Junior 50% of Long Haul Pilots it would have been voted down convincingly.....

Clearly, the current JETSTAR proposal may possibly reward a very lucky few at the top (even then the deal is still CRAP)....

However, for most, especially the more junior JETSTAR Pilots and those waiting to join...this deal is undeniably and completely unsatisfactory...:yuk:

Like most of the Junior QF Mainline Long Haul Pilots did in EBA 7- VOTE NO and stick it to management. This deal is CRAP and they know it!

[AnQrKa]

“I'd make more money labouring than as Jetstar FO.”

Maybe you would, so if your career focus is money and nothing else then grab a shovel and get to work. I don’t think you will though.

[Big Jan]

There really is no problem here.If the Jetstar crew accept this deal they can rot on their terrible conditions.
This will not affect any who have posted here with all their wonderful advice and who are obviously experts in negotiating employment conditions.So I am sure they will be standing shoulder to shoulder and will negotiate for nothing less than they think they are worth with steel like resolve.
for the sake of the profession.:yuk:

[Gnadenburg]

There really is no problem here.If the Jetstar crew accept this deal they can rot on their terrible conditions.
This will not affect any who have posted here with all their wonderful advice and who are obviously experts in negotiating employment conditions.So I am sure they will be standing shoulder to shoulder and will negotiate for nothing less than they think they are worth with steel like resolve.
:yuk:


J* International conditions will be come benchmark. This is business. Next outfit, or new fleet type, that flies internationally out of Oz, will offer benchmark minus X%. Australian pilots will accept it.


AnQrKa

Some pretty high paying jobs there. I see you are burdened with golden handcuffs! Unless of course, you become AnQrKaJ*. ;)

[B A Lert]

[QUOTE=Tankengine] If so many guys are out there for Jetstar Int jobs why do the Indians need to offer so many TAX FREE Dollars??/QUOTE]

Obviously we have a deep thinker here!

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Ahhh vitriol is a wonderful thing!!!. Ive really enjoyed reading the ney sayer posts in the last while. Both here and on rooroom. Thankfully, jetstar guys can sleep peacefully in the knowledge that if, as encouraged by many mailine guys, they vote the EBA ammendment down most if not all QF pilots would happily walk out in support of their now isolated "Collegues".

Whats that I hear you say? That would never happen. Just look at the level of support that has been forthcoming thus far. It doesnt matter for me as my time aloft is fast becoming limmited by age. Its the current batch of, in my opinion, very competent FOs that need the oportunities provided by international ops. As to what the mainline guys think? who gives a rats. You are certainly not the benchmark of professionalism. Try working OS and get out of the rafia mat society that has been created for you hide in.

Mainline guys looking after Number One. Zero support from the professional benchmark set. How would you vote?

Gorging on panninis DM

[Keg]

...of their now isolated "Collegues".

'Isolated'? No more or less than QF mainline drivers at the moment! :rolleyes: However, what J* drivers WILL have in a 'no' vote is the chance is to go back to the table and start again. Contractors will COST QF a truck load more money than giving you guys another 15% on top of your current crappy offer.

Just look at the level of support that has been forthcoming thus far.

Yes, lets look at them. Contact made by a myriad of QF pilots- both COM members and others- to the JPC offering to help, telling them some of the traps, wanting to provide a united front. A lot of QF guys on here saying 'good luck with the international flying but here is the down side to the agreement'. People pointing out the looming pilot shortage and demand for experienced crew. QF drivers explaining the REALITY of interational flying on the type of ops you are talking about doing. No, no support at all. Of course, I forgot. All this was AFTER the JPC signed a confidentiality agreement to negotiate terms! Yes, the QF pilot group wouldn't have even have known that there was the possibility of offering assistance.

As for working together, you don't think that knowing that QF was already talking to J* about the international ops would have helped sway the vote in our EBA? Don't talk about support DM. You guys don't even talk the talk let alone even think about walking the walk.


Mainline guys looking after Number One. Zero support from the professional benchmark set. How would you vote?
Gorging on panninis DM

See, that's the funny thing Douglas. In your own mind, you do this to spite the QF crew. Whilst we'll take a hit from this, at the end of the day, it'll be YOU stuck on the crap terms and conditions. Our progression will slow a bit but at least it'll still be on more money and more time at home with the family than we'd get picking up 7 in 20 on the woeful deal that you guys get.

So, knock yourself out. Go for it. Vote 'yes'. See how good the deal turns out to be. Oh, by the way, in a few years time when the rose coloured glasses come off, maybe then you'll be able to see the couple of thousand mainline drivers who would've stood beside you for a better deal. Unfortunately, in a couple of years time after you've said yes, they'll be saying 'we told you so'.

Short sighted, myopic and illogical thinking. Group think at its worst. Good one! :yuk:

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Keg, its quaint theory that others want to keep on working to spite mainline pilots. There are actually other piklots employed in this country that dont work for mainline. Believe it or not, this one is not all about you. Where were you in 89? Super concerned for the welfare of other pilots in the country. I think not. Once bitten twice shy?

I think you have answered the question with your last post!!!

DM

[Keg]

Keg, its quaint theory that others want to keep on working to spite mainline pilots....
DM

Sorry DM, you don't get away with distorting my comments so cheaply. Nice journo trick though....use a comment that i did make (spite) and attach it to something I never said 'keep on working'! It's a shame you can't stick to the actual merits of the comments instead of going for the cheap shot. Still, par for the course from you so far.

Read my lips again. You can have 100/100 commands on this new thing (you'll have close to this anyway because I can't see 7/20 mainline drivers taking up the crappy offer) but YOUR position is articulated very clearly in your post at 17:41. Let me sum up.

1. You'll say 'yes' because AIPA or mainline has never offered any help. Incorrect and see my previous post.
2. You'll say 'yes' because if you don't, you'll be isolated. Incorrect, you'll still have jobs (earning $150K plus according to Rick) on the A320. You'll still have a bloody good chance of getting a better deal.
3. You'll say 'yes' because otherwise, F/Os won't get progression. Short sighted because they can have that anyway into mainline if they want (on much better conditions than in J*) and the 'progression' they get in J* will be at significant expense of family and life in general.

So, when you use that logic and then attack me on what you think was my stance in '89, that absolutely IS spite.

Oh, and as to '89. I was learning to fly at Camden whilst working a permanent night shift as a security guard at the Regent Hotel in Sydney. I started with QF in '95. I was one of the people that approached the AIPA president in 2001 and put forward the position that AIPA should be looking after all QF group pilots. I've just finished eight and a half years on the 767 on conditions where the COM at the time (before I was employed) just said 'take the domestic flying and we'll sort out the conditions later'. Myself and many of my colleagues paid for that lack of foresight for a bunch of years. All we're trying to do now is to open your eyes to the same issue- if the terms and conditions aren't great now then expect a very hard road to get them improved.

You can use many things to justify your decision for a 'yes' vote DM, but based on the position you've articulated and the lack of ability to listen to some people who have been screwed over by short sightedness, your decision to vote yes is either spite and/or stupidity. You choose.

[Chimbu chuckles]

When Impulse was first bought out by QF and became Qantas Link the AIPA was approached with a 'shall we join you' question.

The then AIPA Com said..."Cannot happen, sorry, Articles of Association and all that."

Since that time the JPC has negotiated a very competitive package...as an example a 717 Captain at Impulse was on about 90K...now, some 4 years later, with overtime etc etc he's on nearly twice that....not bad negotiating I would suggest.

They have negotiated with management, for the most part, from a basis of mutual respect and trust...TJ being a possible exception...there have been things come up that did not work well from the pilots point of view and from management's also...and they have been fine tuned to everyones benefit.

Since then a new AIPA com has been voted in...and the basic platform of the new AIPA president was 'Limiting the growth of J*'.

Is it little wonder Jetstar pilots see little to be gained from any association with AIPA.

It's not all that dissimilar to the situation when AIPA and AFAP, on behalf of Eastern (and Sunnies from memory) pilots tried to negotiate joining their seniority lists...against managements wishes I might add.

The Eastern/Sunnies guys wanted full intergration based purely on datal seniority...they wanted their senior guys to be senior to great numbers of mainline pilots who had been flying for mainline for years and would not budge....AIPA quite correctly said 'get stuffed'.

Had the regional pilots agreed to be joined on the bottom of the mainline list NOT ONE regional pilot would have been worse off...the majority of the regional pilots would have been, in time, far better off...every one of them would have been senior to every cadet and DE pilot who has joined since that time...and we are talking what...15 years ago nearly?

Now AIPA are behaving in a similar arrogant, short sighted way..to their detriment...not that of J* pilots.

The jetstar pilots quite rightly think "why should we bother?"

The plaintive cries from the mainline pilots of "The JPC is industrially naive and their negotiated conditions are a joke" is just so much desperate and ignorant rubbish.

And the chances of uniting all QF pilots were lost 15 years ago...before J* was even an itch in someones pants.

[Lagrange]

The JQ pilot group have conditions appropriate for a LCC operation. Chimbu is sort of right. AIPA has screwed up over the years because of arrogrance. AFAP, well they are still asleep. But to suggest that JQ management - TJ in or out - can be trusted is a little rich. Do you for one minute think Olmeadow and AJ are not out to screw the best deal for JQ? I posed several questions in a previous post. They need to be considered.

From what I have picked up AJ has told GD he will be his AWA bunny. The devil is in the detail with this EBA and I don't think all the cards are on the table.

The only niave person is the one who has not got all the facts.

[RENURPP]

Since that time the JPC has negotiated a very competitive package...as an example a 717 Captain at Impulse was on about 90K...now, some 4 years later, with overtime etc etc he's on nearly twice that....not bad negotiating I would suggest.
"

The were on $90 then + overtime.
They are on around $120 + overtime.

Not quite $180. and at the overtime rates they get they would have to set up house in the aircraft.

[J. Packer]

Why would any Jetstar pilot ever consider the views of AIPA members?

Let us review the recent history of AIPA pilots:

They never sought a scope clause when Qantas acquired Impulse.
Their chief negotiators have been rewarded with management jobs in Qantas.
They can only achieve salary increases of 1% or less per annum.
They were not respected enough to even be considered when Jetstar was started.
Not long after, they voted yes to a useless exclusive MOU agreement.
They agreed to lower their salary level by 40% overnight (any future promotions).
They agreed to be effectively excluded from future Qantas expansion.
They vote for trade offs on conditions of their own members for personal gain.

In comparison, we will all have A320 Captain positions within a year, 40% salary increases, better salaries than mainline pilots for number of years in Qantas, A330/B787 opportunities, Airbus type ratings with PIC hours on our CVs.

[RENURPP]

Airbus type ratings with PIC hours on our CVs.

This is the important one.

Due to the short sighted views, the opportunity to progress to a better job/company will ve valuable in a year or so.

[mjbow2]

Once again, why should any pilot in Jetstar be paid one cent less than mainline, regardless if an employer decides to label themselves 'low cost'.

Same plane, same lic, same responsibilities.

[blueloo]

Packer you're a smart one aren't you. Lets see, AIPA and QANTAS didnt help us, so screw you guys, were going to screw ourselves!

Kind of has a strange illogical irony to it.........

[Break Right]

J.Packer and co.

If these are your reasons for voting yes, more fool you all.:mad:

If you want to sound like cry babies and run to mummy, more fool you all.:mad:

If you want to use this vote to get back at Aipa, more fool you all.:mad:

If you believe for one second that this is the best deal that you are going to be offered, more :mad: fool :mad: you!!!!

If you believe that voting yes will give you a better lifestyle compared to the floggings that you get now, more fool you.:mad:

Wake up all you porn star jet jocks who are voting yes and realize this is a win win for management not airline pilots across the board. At least in Australia anyway.:mad:

Vote it down with a large majority and send management and Rick a clear message that this wide body eba is far from being expectable.:mad:

Say hi to mum for me!!!:E:ok:

[Lagrange]

J Packer, 320 on my CV, are you off to Dragon or India?

Remember Gissing promised Graig G that he would deliver parity with DJ. Is he the one that has promised your command within 12 months?

Instant 330 captains can be dual endorsed.

It is not about being in AIPA or any union it is about the best deal you can get. Are you sure you have got it?

[Keg]

....a new AIPA com has been voted in...and the basic platform of the new AIPA president was 'Limiting the growth of J*'.
Is it little wonder Jetstar pilots see little to be gained from any association with AIPA.

Wrong Chimbu. It was not about limiting the growth of J*- all of us in the group can see the benefit of having an appropriate model in that market. It was however about limiting the ability of J*'s growth to impact adversely on the pay and conditions of all group pilots and to ensure that the conditions would actually encourage mainline pilots to take up some of the 7:20 positions available in J*.

Still, as many of us have said. Feel free to say 'yes' if you reckon that you're sticking it to us. There is no doubt that we'll take a hit but the bullet has to travel through you guys to get to us! Good luck.

Just say 'no'.

[Gnadenburg]

J Packer, 320 on my CV, are you off to Dragon or India?


It surprises me the lack of professional due diligence done by Oz pilots. But for those who are just using the luxury of living in Australia to gain hours for foreign jobs, here goes.

Firstly, Dragonair has no requirment for Airbus experience. They have willingly interviewed large numbers of Virgin Blue 737 pilots- but only taken a handful. Secondly, there is a recruitment ban in place by ALPA, which suggests conditions of service are deteriorating. If you can't maintain conditions in J*, how will you go without labour rights in Hong Kong or China?

If Dragonair is so good, why are you waiting? To cock up conditions for Oz pilots at home?

India is an emerging market for expat pilots. It is probably not worth gambling, giveaway widebody flying rates in Australia, on a whim that India could be a haven of highly paid jobs. At the moment, Indian expat flying is not that lucratrive. India has many problems for expat families and rostering is chaotic.

Today's expat pilot market, is not always there tomorrow. It's a shame you don't realise the best deal you will ever get, is the negotiating you will do now.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Keg I don't work there....MANY mates who do...just giving a non emotional perspective...a little balance.:)

Lot of emotional missreading of T&Cs going on at mainline, from what I hear....what was that one about 9 days off, in home port, in 9 mths:}

[Hans Solo]

Lagrange,
Check your PM's

[Keg]

Thanks Chimbu, in that case, it's your mates who are wrong about the ARG's platform! :ok:

The other points still hold with respect to your mates! :E

[Jetsbest]

I endorse what Keg said too Chimbu. (in various posts)

I'm disappointed by the odd redneck over-reaction from some AIPA members but some in J* are also mis-reading or mis-representing everything I've heard the present AIPA president say... and I've been listening pretty intently to every word on this issue because it affects me more than many.

No doubt a case of three sides to every story? Ours, theirs & the truth!

[Break Right]

for everyone that thinks that they have read the eba but really have not
click on the download
http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=40109
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[BankAngle50]

Completely UNACCEPTABLE!!!

Woomera

[amos2]

Look!...to be quite frank, this nonsence is just going on and on!

It's obvious to me, at least, that there is, in general, an agreement that the Jetstar Pilot Council is thinking about selling their pilots down the drain!

It's also obvious to me that the Qantas mainline pilots will support the Jetstar pilots if the whole thing goes pearshaped and the jetstar pilots go on strike!

Well, that's the impression I get reading some of the posts here from Keg and others!

Have I got this right?...or am I misreading the situation?? :8

[Lagrange]

Firstly, Bankangle50, how can you expect reasonable JQ pilots to take any notice of you if that is the best response or reaction a brother pilot can give- I will spit on you - mate, grow up.

Follow the link Breakright has provided and then consider the questions I posed some time back.

JQ management are not in this EBA amendment to be nice to the pilots.

Pull out last year's QF Annual report. What was AJ's bonus? wow. How will he repeat that this year?

[Keg]

Amos, the J* pilots have a rock solid committment from me to support them to the utmost that the law allows if:

1. They vote down the deal.
2. They sign on to AIPA as members- fully paying ones as I know there are still some legal hurdles here.
3. They ensure that any future negotiations is done by the 'group'.

BTW, that applies also the the Eastern and Sunstate crews. I'd be happy to look at the NJS crews as well but I'm not sure how that deal fully operates.

Good enough for you?

Divided we bet- as it patently obvious by reading any of the contributions from J* members on this thread.

[sby]

For those talking about voting no and than joining with AIPA to get better conditions because AIPA now cares and shares some info for you

-a week ago Aipa emailed all Jet* pilots asking us to call them, which I did and surprise, surprise message left for them and they could not even be bothered calling back. obviously an important topic for them (looks like history repeating)

-I will be voting No but I can certainly understand why this crap deal will get up

[Cruis'in FL410]

To add to that
BankAngle50:
If I see you in the International I hope I can refrain from spitting on you.
Don't put a slur on your fellow QF workers. Heaps of my mates are in QF I'm sure would slap you over the head for a comment like that, act your age. I reakon the variation is a shocking deal, and reflects the contempt that our management has for the bloody hard work we have had to endure since Jetstar's inception. There are still so many unanswered questions, and too much "intent", and "in our best interests" type clauses that, in the past we have been abused with.

As for the arguement of keeping the seniority list intact, the company has shown exactly how it observes the "List". Go down the current list, and find how many F/O's have been "by-passed" due to no fault of their own, except the company mis-managing the list. I am sick of hearing, "don't worry, we will take care of you" crap... (In being by-passed some F/O's have indicated they are already 100,000+ out of pocket)

I would love to get onto the international deal, but not for the conditions in front of me. I voted NO! So just remember this afternoon, when the result is produced and the YES gets up, (thats the feeling around the traps), that there are plenty of us that disagree with this deal, regardless of the outcome. Please don't spit on me, otherwise you will regret the outcome..

Thanks Keg for the advice, and level-headed comments. As "sby" stated, I too rang the APIA number, and left a message over a week ago, with no repsonse. My view, and two cents...

PS: If it settles your mind BankAngle50, I did make it to those high heights of the hold file, only to be told after 10 months of waiting that I was successful in passing, but not competitive enough with others on hold, so no go mate!!!!! Try again in 6 months, but by then I was far far happier on the 7-17 than go through that process again (there are many ways to make some coin than this game)

[J. Packer]

Well I must be confused over some history and facts….

Which pilot group is it that……

Welcomed foreign and domestic strikebreakers from 1989 to join their group?
Would rather see their youngsters hired on jets than a Qantas regional turboprop Captain?
Voted for a B scale for domestic First Officers?
Turned their backs on the Impulse pilots becoming Qantas employees in 2001?
Endorsed Qantas using contract pilots (Impulse) by signing off on their EBA?
Turned their backs on the Jetstar pilots in 2004?
Voted overwhelmingly yes to a MOU that endorsed Jetstar salary rates?
Never voted no to poor EBA deals over a decade of strong Qantas performance?
Voted yes to an EBA that endorses B scale Second Officers based offshore?

No, I am not the one crying. And I don’t care to screw it to the AIPA pilots, but I do pity their arrogance, ignorance, and selfish ineptitude. It is common knowledge that 200 mainline A330 F/Os will say yes to big salary cuts on mainline salary rates for a promotion. Yes, I am looking out for my own interests, but the difference is I don’t pretend otherwise.

[Woomera]

BankAngle50 will not be participating in this, or any other discourse, for the next two weeks...and that period only to give me time to chat to the other Woomera...it may yet become permanent.:mad:

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Nice to see your humility on display again Keg. Once again you have failed to recognise the plain truth of the matter. Past arrogance and lack of support for JQ guys seems to have been conveniently dismissed. Do you really think a professional group will willingly fall on its sword for people who put posts on the net like yours?

You only have to take a look at the disgusting muck on crewroom to get a picture of the distain that we are held in at QF. And you guys hold yourselves up as the bastions of professional aviation. In 40 years of flying ive never seen such a childlike and pathetic attitude towards other in the industry.

What a wonderful example you set for future aviators in Aus.

DM

[blueloo]

Douglas Mcdonnal, I suggest you take a bit more time out to think about the rubbish you are posting. Qrewroom, is not, and never has been representative of most QF mainliners. It is read by many, but only a few regulars post on it. It is the same names over and over again.

Most mainliners also are amazed at the rubbish posted on it - take the extreme postings on pprune, and you have in most cases the same extreme views on Qrewroom.

If you are basing your decsions on whats on Qrewroom, then well, you deserve the outcome.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Having just read that EBA link I am a little confused about the 'cruise FO' getting 60%....are we talking dedicated cruise FOs? Sounds a little like they are playing with job descriptions to get around 3 crew CAO48 exemptions.

Keg, Amos2 etc with all due respect....NO-ONE believes the bulk of QF mainline pilots will stick their necks out for J* pilots if they vote the variations down.

QF mainline pilots do not, as a group, have a history of doing so...not even for each other let alone a separate group....lets take a moment to consider the deal you guys voted 'yes' to for your, soon to be, Singapore based colleages. It actually makes the J* EBA look GOOD!!!

Whichever way the J* pilots vote is their business and, in my opinion, any J* pilot who votes 'no' thinking Keg and his workmates will stand up for him is naive.

Vote no if you find the variations unacceptable after rational discourse with your elected representatives and peers...not based on the rantings of a very few pilots on here.

[Jetsbest]

Mr Packer..

There are some needling elements of truth in what you say, but in defence of the 'good blokes' out there in QF (many of whom btw have voted NO to the deals to which you refer, and for the same reasons being advocated for J* too);

- more that half of all QF mainline pilots joined since 1995, not to mention the even larger proprtion of QF-group pilots,
- AIPA has been repeatedly told it does not control the recruiting process and resultant seniority,
- most are NOT happy with the apparent nepotism evident at times,
- the short-sighted B-scale vote by the sub-set known as A-pilots also affected the subsequent command pay of the F/O voters themselves, but has since been paid for again in removing its inequity,
- Ignoring J* pilots was not the agenda of many (maybe even most) QF pilots, but it has served people of influence at various junctures to sell the line that it 'just had to be this way' (promotion? bonuses? promises?). I wanted J* pilots who met the mystical QF-group standard to be employed from the hold file on QF pay... not told 'no job here but how about J*'. I believe significant 'poaching' of candidates eminently suitable for ANY company has cost those individuals a start date in QF through the expediency of convenient divide (now being followed by conquer?); an obvious remuneration cost to those individuals but hard to quantify or prove.
- I thought the job-swap MOU was close-run rather than overwhelming, especially when considering it had no obvious relevance to Captains at the time, who mostly seemed to vote along 'party lines'. The initial spin sounded good (sound familiar?) and as a trusting soul I voted. When the more sinister aspects emerged I was unable to reverse my online vote. I'm not the only one. I felt duped and I'm now much less trusting of the non-specific language used in documents like MOUs and the J* EBA Revision document. Having said that, the MOU is still a 2-way street; why have apparently no J* pilots tried it?
- Re 'never voting no'... Well you get that with such diverse self-interest as exists in QF. J* must be different. Spin and threats from management (sound familiar?), clouded or ambiguous motives by some in power (sound familiar?), differences in time-to-go, and apathy from some who's careers are most affected by the vote are all in the mix. I accept it's but one of many faults in the AIPA group, but the J* pilots are doing it too. Many rebuffs are as childish as the accusations but I maintain that it might help to listen to what has transpired in recent AIPA history and learn from the literal contractual pitfalls of this industrial relations climate.
- Finally, as far as I can tell there are 117 F/Os and 133 Captains on A330 in QF TODAY. There are a few more in training but, as I've told my kids a million times, don't exaggerate! And as for common knowledge about pay cuts and promotion; just saying it doesn't make it so! An annoying part is that pilot managers claim they didn't know of the J* A330 extraction until the day before the announcement so, on the face of it, a secretive commercial decision has apparently forced the imminent over-manning of the QF A330 fleet. You can bet the QF pilots will be conveniently blamed for that cost. Plus management wouldn't be deliberately deceptive would they?

In review I realise there are a lot of circular arguments going on in this thread. What jumps out at me is the striking resemblance the comments made by the J*-biased demographic bear to those by the QF-biased demographic! Neither side wants to be told by, or learn from, the other.

Perhaps the recruiters and psychologists do have it consistently right for pilots' temperament and disposition; deep down we're all the same!?! :O

[Keg]

I have to say that repeating myself time and again is getting a little tiring but I'll try again.

I'm the first one to admit that AIPA (including me as a member) dropped the ball on Impulse, J* and the regionals over a significant period of time! We may be able to speculated why that was but in short, we'd be guessing and in some respects, who cares how we got to where we are now, the important things is where do we ALL go from here. Past arrogance 'conveniently dismissed'? WTF am I supposed to do now about poor actions by the COM five years ago. For the last five years I've been banging on about the importance of working together. I may have gotten more vocal over the last three years as confidence in both my own beliefs and the assurance that my operational reputation (such as it exists) pretty much safe guarded me from being shafted elsewhere but it's been a pretty consistent theme. Just because AIPA has cocked it up in the past doesn't mean that we should continue to do things seperately. An aviator is supposed to learn from past mistakes. I have. Can you?

DM, you talk about the J* guys falling on their swords for people like me. First point, I'm not telling people to say 'no' for me as a first point, I'm trying to reassure them that I value them a lot more than the current crappy offer them. After that comes the fact that it means that I may have the opportunity a J* aircraft at some stage in the future on half decent pay and conditions. Second point, J* falling on their swords for me? Again, the sword will disembowel J* crew before it gets to QF crew. You don't see that at all!

If you are concerned about a childish and pathetic attitude towards others then perhaps a look in the mirror is in order. I'm not going to defend my colleagues behaviour because I don't believe in defending the indefensible- except from over zealous prosecution that distorts the truth- as some of my comments on Qrewroom and here would have already shown. My colleagues may articulate venom in their posts but I'm not sure that is any worse than your 'what have you ever done for us' and the 'I can't wait to stick it to the arrogant mainline crew' attitude that I see from youself and others on this forum.

I'm comfortable with the points I'm articulating in these posts as an example to future generations....perhaps you should check six on yours!

Chimbu, 'stick neck out' for J* crew if they vote it down? That implies that we all need to go on strike if it goes down. With respect, I don't think we need to go anywhere close to that! Further, I would sincerely hope that no J* pilot votes for this on whether they think I will stand up for them or not. I would hope that they would know that if they say 'no' then AIPA is prepared to assist to get them a better deal. I also hope that they vote for this deal on the basis of whether it is a good deal or not.

Actually, that final issue is the main point in all of this. Despite all the comments back and forward, no one has yet articulated a position that says that this is a 'great deal' and should be voted 'yes' accordingly. It's been said that 'it's the best we can do', it's been said that it's 'guarantees our futures' (I've heard that before) but NO ONE has said this is a great deal and worthy of a yes vote. In seven pages of discussion, THAT is a telling issue!

[Going Boeing]

Chimbu

QF pilots (with a small number of exceptions) do support the Jet* guys. It's very clear to us that we will not be doing the flying but it is in our interests to assist J* pilots in getting the best possible remuneration for flying widebodies as it reduces the pressure on us during EBA's. We also know that management will tell mainline pilots to fly the B787 for the same rate as J* otherwise more aircraft will be delivered to J* instead of mainline. By the way, in case the J* guys don't know it - QF managements current plan is for the B787-9's which start delivery in 2011 to go to Jetstar with the B787-8's that Jetstar will be flying from 2008 being transferred to QF mainline. The Jetstar fleet will end up being purely -9's so the pay that they agree to now will be the rate for the larger variant which has the most revenue potential and thus allow for higher salaries.


Re your comment wrt the LH EBA and the SIN basings for S/O's. The facts are the QF management was going to proceed with the basings irrespective of the result of the EBA. The "yes" vote resulted in better conditions for the S/O basing than what management were offering - not great conditions, just better conditions. There was nothing in our Certified Agreement that could have prevented them proceeding with the basing so the conclusion, made by some on this forum, that we sold out the S/O's to achieve a pay rise is incorrect.

[DutchRoll]

Aaah. Now I feel refreshed.:hmm: Woomeras, with all due respect I think you guys generally do a great (and possibly thankless) job, but that was a little heavy-handed given what I wrote, my (now blemished) record on pprune, and the fact that it was without warning. Feedback from some very reasonable people I know over the last couple of days seems to support this. Also, if the 'banned' html page is going to bandy around legal terms, could someone - admin I guess - please read up on 'slander' and 'libel'. I might as well be accused of the correct offence. Ta. Dutchy's mini-rant over (and no personal offence intended).
On Jetstar, as you may now have guessed, some extraordinary things have been put into print recently. A letter from the JPC chairman. A letter from the AIPA president, and an eye-popping statement from a personal witness to a rather important phone conversation disputing certain written accounts.
Whatever the case, public statements made/written by certain important individuals do not appear to be entirely consistent with the current evidence at hand. I strongly feel that Jetstar International 'negotiations' deserve intense scrutiny, and it is entirely reasonable to intensely criticize some aspects of this affair (and in doing so I must obviously be more careful not to slide into somewhat dry satire). All this argument may be objectionable to some, but there is a strong and understandable feeling that a 'slippery slope' down which commercial aviation conditions of employment may slide, is being carelessly created by certain actions.

[rescue 1]

Any truth to the rumour that AIPA have progressed the case to court, to discuss the international flying?

[J. Packer]

Jetsbest….

Thank you for correcting my error on A330 F/O numbers, 200 was the approximate total I had for A330 mainline pilots, I correct my previous post entry of number 200 to 100.

Excuses and excuses. AIPA may not control the recruiting process but its members do control their vote. They have never instigated a vote against nepotism or contract pilots or management job sweeteners. They have always voted yes to pay increases below the inflation rate, B scales for their fellow members, and a MOU endorsing Jetstar pay rates. Whether voting no would ever have any effect on the company’s actions is no excuse, signing off on an EBA effectively endorses the company’s position. Why have no J* pilots tried the MOU? Because it is a backwards step (we will all be Airbus Captains within 3 years of start-up). And just look at some of the posts here to see some of the types one would be flying with. It is a bit rich to ask J* pilots to learn from your mistakes, when your group has no evidence of having ever done so themselves. And another thing, the sooner you blokes realise that Jetstar pilots are Qantas pilots, the better off you will be (in touch with reality). It is only a matter of (short) time before we have J class seats on all our jets and our tails are painted red and white. And that is all I have to say on this matter.

[longjohn]

How ironic Mr Packer that you are the antithesis of your namesake.

I have said here before that the degradation of the position of Airline pilot is far from over, so far JetStar pilots are so far ahead in the race to the bottom they must be getting very lonely.

Money is not the issue, it is the respect which it commands. Unfortunately that is the way that todays society sees and values you and your profession. That is why people ask what you do, they are judging your status in society and therefore making it easier to judge you themselves.

I have no doubt that Jetstar pilots will comfortably feed their families, but how long before their friends, family etc. start wondering why your standard of living is not higher? When you tell them that pilots don't earn anywhere near what they 'used to' will you also proudly state that you were partly responsible for that so that you could get into a bigger a/c or gain a command in world record time?

Do you think the leprechaun respects you? Ironically, he is looking for his command on the backs of yours.

Do you think Jetstar management respect you? Yes surrrre they will in the morning.

Will the Jetstar pilots stand proud in the bar when regional pilots start complaining that management views their salaries as too high because of the new benchmark set by Jetstar pilots?

When you try to piss off overseas how do you expect to be received in airlines run by ex pats who fought for a certain standard of conditions in that unmentionable year?

Is it the thongs and sarongs began brigade you intend to fearlessly Command whose approval you are so desperately seeking? Find out how much RIO TINTO values a 22 year old crane driver in the Kimberly, yes you will be commanding far less $$$. In fact, find out how much the JFS refueller is getting and have a good think about it.

Do you tell people you work for Jetstar, or the Qantas group, or just go the whole way....? Painting a roo on your tail will simply not do it.

But I suspect you already know that.

Think about it, respect, it is hard to earn but thats why everyone wants it.

[Lagrange]

Don't know % who voted, but the JQ boys and girls have vote a very big yes.

now for the fine print.

[J. Packer]

longjohn….

Respect eh? Very hard to have any respect from pilots that say do as I say, but not at I do. Just look at the recent history of AIPA group that I summarised in previous post, and tell me about respect again. AIPA pilots have not shown any respect for each other, let alone other pilot groups. Please remember that the Qantas mainline pilots overwhelmingly endorsed Jetstar pay scales when they voted the MOU. They thought it quite alright for other pilots in Qantas to be on a B scale, but suddenly now that it will apply to them, they cry like a baby. That you, some drunks in a bar, or some 89 expats running an overseas airline (hard to believe) do not respect me, I really could not care in the least. I respect myself and have the respect of many that I consider credible. I am proud to tell anyone I fly for Jetstar. It seems the last people in Australia to realise Jetstar is Qantas are the mainline pilots. It is pointless to say anything more on the subject, been done to death.

[Capt Fathom]

now for the fine print.
Sorry...it was all in pencil on the back of a beer coaster! Suckers :{

[Big Jan]

Longjohn,Keg and others.You can bleat as much as you like but this variation has won through.I personally don't like it and nor do most of the people who voted it up.As others have mentioned previously in this thread Jetstar pilots are not the only ones who have felt they had to accept substandard pay and conditions due to various reasons.Nat Jet did it,Qantas longhaul did it and now Jetstar have done it.Apart from a few we will stand by you from various posters on this forum and a couple of words of support and contempt on qrewroom we have not had anybody come forward with any concrete offer of real support or plan in the event that we voted this variation down.
The president of AIPA sent us all emails exhorting us to vote no, but did not offer any plan or real support to us as a group.Mr Woods I wouldn't think of approaching us again untill you seriously have all Qantas group pilots welfare at heart and actually display as much.Untill then I doubt we will be very interested.Qantas group pilots are all of them and not just the ones you feel threataned by.So any approach to Jetstar pilots should coincide with approaches to Eastern, Sunstate etc,etc,etc.
Open your eyes AIPA and imagine what could be done if your leader proves strong enough to unite all these pilots.

[MONK]

Longjohn...........

Are you suggesting that respect comes with the size of your pay packet?....So Qantas pilots deserve more respect because they earn more?

[Capt Fathom]

Open your eyes AIPA and imagine what could be done if your leader proves strong enough to unite all these pilots. From what I have read, the head of AIPA has only just taken over the reins!
Even Jesus took a few years to perform his first miracle !! :E

[Jetsbest]

J.P.

I'll try again, more slowly this time. I thought I had quite succinctly recognised most of your points, even ascribing some merit to your thoughts.

So;
- I would love to know how to vote against 'nepotism or contract pilots or management job sweeteners' when it can't be proven and AIPA can't force a vote on the company.
- voting 'yes to pay increases below the inflation rate' is never palatable but more believable when your pilot group is demonstably at the 'top of the heap' depending on your perspective. What intrigues me is how a possible pay cut while near the bottom of the remuneration tree (among jet jobs in Oz) can be so tarted up as such a good deal.
- AIPA members (mostly not the ones who imposed it) showed maturity and, at not inconsiderable cost, voted out the domestic 'B scales for their fellow members', so what's your point again?
- Mistakes... AIPA has made so many but why would anyone not wish to learn from that. J* negotiated with the same adversarial consultants as have faced AIPA. Super-resourced, charging around $5000 per day I'm told, and tasked with skillfully convincing pilots that anything other than the offer on the table is unrealistic/unattainable/withdrawable. But a component of whatever they cleverly withhold from well-intentioned-ameteur pilot-negotiators goes into some desk-wallah's bonus! Yes, in my book AIPA have been naive too, but your committee had the benefit of all that and still actively endorsed a typically AIPA outcome for much less money than an established benchmark! Bit of a shame really.
- if 'signing off on an EBA effectively endorses the company’s position' then what has just happened? "Pot to Kettle, over"
- 'we will all be Airbus Captains within 3 years of start-up'. Perhaps, but I'm not sure who's sounding more arrogant now... If that's what you live for you're welcome to it on the conditions you've won. Perhaps that's what the J* majority wanted; so low that it's not worth many others cutting in?

There's a lot of water to go under the bridge before I jump off it. I've probably chosen words poorly because I'm really not anti anyone who can do the job. I'm disappointed but not angry at anyone who's been faced with an intimidating choice. I'm annoyed that IR has come to this though.

I just hope that market forces, common sense and finally some spine will allow all QF pilots, including J*, to progress in reasonable time to a reasonable command on reasonable pay and conditions.

Tell 'im 'e's dreamin'...

[Australia2]

Well said longjonn !!

[Gnadenburg]

Somebody will be getting a nice bonus out of all this. And Geoff Dixon & co would have to be looking at J* pilots crewing the 380 now.

Shouldn't be hard to set up. A380 crewing company, CCQ J* A330 pilots onto type for " Virgin Blue conditions of service". :\

[J. Packer]

Jetsbest…

‘I would love to know how to vote against 'nepotism or contract pilots or management job sweeteners' when it can't be proven.’ All are proven. nepotism: cross check the names on your pilot list, contract pilots: Impulse operations 1991-1994, management job sweeteners: cross check past AIPA committee names against past and current management names.

‘AIPA members (mostly not the ones who imposed it) showed maturity and, at not inconsiderable cost, voted out the domestic 'B scales for their fellow members', so what's your point again?’. I seem to recall AIPA pilots voted yes to B scales for S/Os and new hires only a few months ago.

There is no evidence that AIPA pilots have ever made any initiative to eradicate B scales from the Qantas pilot group. They have only sought to isolate themselves above it, much to their ineptitude. It is plain as day the AIPA pilots only give a stuff about themselves and their future (now bleak) prospects. If they are given the opportunity, it will be very, very interesting to see how many AIPA pilots jump at the chance of a quick Airbus promotion on Jetstar conditions. I expect many. Hypocrites.

[*Lancer*]

The "stuff you, I'm looking out for myself" attitude will do Jetstar pilots exactly the same service as it is now providing AIPA.

[Lagrange]

What is really sad is the fact that the true JQ boys and girls will never get to fly the A330 or 787.

AJ and MW (with JG's hand up his back) will bring in experienced pilots to fly the 330. When the 787 turns up. the senior JQ pilots will still be inexperienced international pilots. "Gosh, our experienced 330 mate will have to fly the 787". Bad luck, but thanks for voting the EBA up.

You think I'm wrong?

Rick, you will be long remembered. AJ and Oldmeadow wont even know your name when the day of reckoning comes.

[Transition Layer]

Holy sh*t!

Just saw the (ballpark) numbers on the Jetstar EBA vote and it's not like it just scraped home! Good work guys :yuk:

And I thought us mainline drivers were d1ckheads for voting in EBA7. At least that was "only" a 58% majority.

[Datum]

Time for AIPA's new COM to show Australian Professional Pilot's what they are capable of......:uhoh:

This deal stinks of underhanded, manipulating and threating behaviour from QF and JETSTAR Management....From what I can gather many pilots at JETSTAR were left with little choice due to the 'possibilities' of a NO vote...

This is a continuation of the inevitable 'TRANSMISSION OF BUSINESS' from QF Mainline to JETSTAR.....

When will people wake up to what is happening.....This must be addressed by the AIPA and the Industrial Relations Commission - at least whilst it still exists...

And for those not in the cut-throat Aviation game....watch this space... If QF Management get away with this - other companies and Industries will follow...a very very sad state of affairs for many in the Australian workforce...:ugh:

[Jetsbest]

Nepotism. You believe it, I believe it, but it's always legally defensible because they can recruit who they want when they want, especially to 'management'. NO association, not even the JPC could stop that! It's just not our trainset. For example, outrage at back-dated seniority for a recent block of cadets sent to the two-year 'industry experience program' merely resulted in a re-wording of the deal; QF hired them (ie seniority number) then 'allowed' them immediate leave-without-pay for two years. It's their trainset. But that couldn't happen in J* could it?

S/Os in Singapore. You believe it, I believe it, but saying it does not make it so. I've met several current S/Os who want to go. I've even met a couple who are annoyed that, not being on the -400, will therefore not be offered a basing. Both the company and AIPA's lead negotiator at the time all swore 'it's a good deal!' Sound familiar? The flip side of course that even J* pilots offered QF jobs (yes it does happen) now have to weigh up the chance of being initially based in SIN, and I know pilots from various backgrounds who've said they will decline a job if that occurs. Who knows, maybe even QF will have trouble recruiting soon.

Bleak prospects. Not at all! I'm waiting for our Chief Pilot to give us some reason for the optimism he says we should all have after the contrived way QF has played this issue. QF had, in AIPA, the most compliant, rational, non-militant and appeasing professional association imaginable to work with, until it found a way to increase bonuses to a few by circumventing that oft-touted good working relationship. The continued QF posturing has only hardened and disenfranchised many, hence the electoral success of a 'new broom' at AIPA. QF continue to make the job of AIPA committee people hard by threat and re-interpretatoin of past agreements, but at least the realisation has dawned on many pilots that you get only what you negotiate and no-one is in managment to respect and look after you. I feel sure that this truth will also be evident to J* pilots in time. But on an optimistic note, I'm confident that QF will go on growing and providing a product of quality and value to our customers through the efforts of its professional workers, generating world-class profits (and bonuses for some), while negotiating efficiencies where they can be found to benefit both the employees and the company.

As for 'If they are given the opportunity, it will be very, very interesting to see how many AIPA pilots jump at the chance of a quick Airbus promotion on Jetstar conditions. I expect many. Hypocrites.' There you go exaggerating again. Such a decision is for each individaul to make because all are obviously in different circumstances. The 'official line' never reflects the view of everyone always. The J* contract has created a new playing field down the hill from a very good ground but, having lobbied against it's construction, each AIPA pilot will make their own judgement about whether they should try to join the new game now that the field is just about completed... or is it? And will J* pilots lead by example, welcoming any pilot choosing to do so, or merely mirror the worst verbal excesses of a few QF yobs? (Among 2400 people there's bound to be a few yobs, and I observe that J* is no different)

I can tell we're not going to reach agreement but thanks for the input. I hope in a few years that you will be closer to my current work conditions than I am to yours. That is what AIPA is trying to address. But whoever turns out to be correct, let's agree not to do the 'I told you so'.

[RENURPP]

A good example (an awe full one really) was the National Jet crews agreeing to a pay cut and paying for the B717 rating as well in order to get the gig.
NJS crews had "the GIG " and jetstar, in the race to undercut every body threatened their employment. The option for them was to take a slight cut in conditions, which nobody was happy with or find new employment, heaven forbid they may have been forced to work with the likes of the people trying to talk up this offer.
The difference being the Jetstar group HAVE jobs and there is no need to be bringing every body down to their level. LOW as LOW can be, financially and morally

[Zed]

Get your facts straight. No 717 pilot was going to fly the Qantaslink contract for less than what they where on, that was at the time $125 000 and where already endorsed.

Why Airlink pilots agreed to less money then above is beyond me.

[RENURPP]

The fact that you guys were PERPARED to take others jobs is what drove it. pretty much as you are doing now.

NJS pilots were aware that there were no endorsement costs for Jetstar pilots. That was a huge saving for them in the tender process.

To RETAIN our jobs we had no choice.

If I say what i really think I will get banned so just imagine what I think and you will be close I am sure.

[Zed]

So what you are saying is that it wasn,t 717 pilots that undercut you. It was you who negoitiated to do it for less money. You let your self down.

[Capn Bloggs]

Get your facts straight.

Hey Zed, thanks for the advice. It would've been nice to know that when, due to that fact that the NJ pilots aircraft were going off lease (that means leave these shores never to be seen again), their bosses were threatening them with not getting another aeroplane=on the street because JQ had a better deal on the table. Perhaps NJ management were are bunch of #$%^&, perhaps it was all a game, perhaps you guys were never going to fly QL, who knows.

The point is, not ONE JQ pilot will be out of a job as a result of the current exercise, whereas 100 NJS pilots would have been, no questions asked. Just ask the 727 drivers over at AAe about having their aircraft replaced.

The two situations are completely different and you do yourself no favours by sledging the NJS troops.

[LookinDown]

"Nepotism.... For example, outrage at back-dated seniority for a recent block of cadets sent to the two-year 'industry experience program' merely resulted in a re-wording of the deal; QF hired them (ie seniority number) then 'allowed' them immediate leave-without-pay for two years. "

Seniority nos weren't back-dated. They were issued shortly after graduation. The complaints have been over the fact that there hasn't been any formal statement from QF that cadets were employees (although de facto in reality) and therefore should or shouldnt they be entitled to seniority. These matters were discussed at length previously on this site.

[Lagrange]

At last the lights are coming on, but it is all over, the fat lady has left the building!!

The seniority discussion is amusing. JQ flaunts seniority all the time. They do not apply by pass! All the management pilots at JQ are so junior that they could not hold a command in their own right.

How will they introduce International flying with the 330. Simple, employ 40 instant captains or extend the 2 year short term instant captains who are currently employed. After all they are very experienced. Theory? No. A mate of mine at EK has already been given the nod. It is not about money he and his family want to live in Melbourne.

The current 717 captains and the wonderful F/O's who will be getting their 320 commands in the next 12 months, will never ever get near the 330.

Something else, CASA will allow 320 / 330 dual endorsements. If QF pilots are not careful, CM at GD's direction will dual endorse 330 / 380 pilots. What QF wont do it? Give the 380 to JQ. Al's boys will fly the 320 / 380 under an AWA. The pay rate is set. The JQ pilots voted for a wide body pay rate. Check the definitions!

And what happens next? Well, the JQ 320 boys and girls will not have any international experience. Damn. They wont be able to fly the 787.

Those lucky AN junior pilots who are flying the 320. By passing the seniority system again.

By the way, who is running Flying now. Saw Mark Niceguy in the terminal, he isn't. F/O Gissing was at all the JPC company meetings not Mark He is AJ right hand man now. Could it be he has his hand up MW's back until he completes his command training?:ok:

[dirty deeds]

Today is the saddest day in Australian Aviation history, we are now no longer considered the professionals that we are, our conditions are gone for ever and they are never coming back. The word has already gone out in Asia guys, so don't complain about your conditions in a couple of years because our northern partners will not hear of it, you read between the lines!

God speed and good luck to the lot of you!

[Shagtastic]

Oh well.. won't affect me as I don't know 5 people in the company :E

Don't you just love 21st century recruitment policy?

Shags

[ladbroke]

Is it just me? But when has the the QF Union/Pilot body helped anyone other than themselves? The only time Australian Aviation ever hears from them is when their own pockets are threatened. I seem to remember the Impulse Crew trying to join and being given short thrift. If they had been welcomed with open arms maybe, just maybe QF would be flying the launch B787`s .

[And Then]

Today is the saddest day in Australian Aviation history, we are now no longer considered the professionals that we are, our conditions are gone for ever and they are never coming back. The word has already gone out in Asia guys, so don't complain about your conditions in a couple of years because our northern partners will not hear of it, you read between the lines!
God speed and good luck to the lot of you!

You are talking riddles here. Are you making reference to the sacking of Australian pilots within Dragon Air yesterday?

[Z Force]

Jetstar will be receiving three A380's.

[OhSpareMe]

Why not give them all 12 A380?

This is going to be fun to watch.

[polemic]

Shags you only need to know one.

[Shagtastic]

Polemic,

Must be thinking of Virgin Blue then, but still don't even know one person, so this still makes me 'unsuitable'.. perhaps I could invent someone, would they ever bother to look?

Shags

[oicur12]

longjohn,

"I have said here before that the degradation of the position of Airline pilot is far from over, so far JetStar pilots are so far ahead in the race to the bottom they must be getting very lonely."

As a matter of interest, where are you working now?

[touchncloth]

Stay tuned a new low is a comin' my fellow drivers:}

[Karunch]

Touche Oicur!