Screaming Virgin doesn't like it rough? (or VA F/A screams during turbulence)

[BHMvictim]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18308076-23109,00.html

Screaming stewardess sparks panic
From: Agence France-Presse
From correspondents in London

February 28, 2006


VIRGIN Atlantic is investigating claims a stewardess alarmed passengers by screaming that a turbulence-hit jumbo jet was going to crash.
According to passengers, there was panic when the cabin crew member apparently lost control as the London to Las Vegas Boeing 747, with 451 passengers on board, ran into turbulence over Greenland.

"She (the stewardess) screamed every time we dropped and one point chanted three times 'We're going to crash'," one passenger said.

"This hysterical stewardess was telling everyone we were going to die," another passenger said

The incident took place last Friday.

A Virgin spokeswoman today said the airline was waiting for the crew of the flight, VS43, to return to the UK before starting an investigation.

Advertisement:
"We can confirm that flight VS43 from London Gatwick to Las Vegas, which departed at 10.51am on February 24, experienced unexpected turbulence approximately three hours into the flight," she said.

"The safety and security of passengers and crew is Virgin Atlantic's top priority.

"The flight deck will always keep passengers informed of expected flying conditions and where possible will try to avoid areas of expected turbulence.

"Incidents of unexpected turbulence are relatively rare but as a precaution, passengers are always advised to wear seatbelts at all times during the flight."

[G-CPTN]

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13511193,00.html

[MrHorgy]

Considering most of VA's trips are fairly shortish (i'll be willing to be corrected on this) I find it incredible that the passengers are evidently so traumatised and their holiday is so good that they have time to get in touch with the UK pres, even before the crew have come home again.

As crew myself, if I was being thrown around the cabin with my drinks trolley I might be inclined to look at the ceiling and yell some "choice words"

Horgy

[flybywire]

"The flight deck will always keep passengers informed of expected flying conditions and where possible will try to avoid areas of expected turbulence.

The flight deck??? really? now the flight deck speaks and can even fly the plane?
Sorry...one thing is airline "slang" but to print it on a paper....flight CREW might be more appropriate maybe....? I wouldn't like to be referred to as the "aircraft interiors" myself on a national newspaper!!

Just for the record, while I appreciate that one might want to scream in such situation, a cabin crew should keep their fears to themselves. Otherwise what would they do if they received the fanmous emergency call to report to the F/D???? Pre-meditated emergency landing/ditching??? That crew member is definitely in the wrong job, or very, VERY inexperienced.

And to finish it here, the daily mail said that severe turbulence went on and on for 30 minutes........I am sure it was not the case as in such situations the flight crew would climb, descend or find another way to make the ride a bit less rocky for everybody - including themselves. 30 minutes sounds a bit too long, I experienced such turbulence myself (and most of us) and I know what it feels like!!! As for the passengers being thrown in the air........how many times do we say that??? KEEP YOUR BELT FASTENED AT ALL TIMES WHEN SEATED!!!!

In all honesty, I can smell burnt, big time.

FBW

[jettesen]

i can guarantee you thet 30 mins is not long at all for severe turbulance. I remember travelling on southwest airlines from nashville to orlando ansd for the entire 3hour flt we had severe turbulance. This was before i was crew, and I thought that plane was ging to come out of the sky. With it being the hurricane and tornado season at the time, there was nowhere the pilots could go to get out of it. The pax had to hold the crew down - who were sitting on the floor ( as it was so severe they couldn't ever walk back to their seats). 30 mins is not a long time


Didn't realise that virgin 747 carried 451 pax

[TightSlot]

Maybe worth mentioning here that Flight Crew's definition of "Severe" is very often different to that of Cabin Crew. As a general rule, CC tend to call the degree of turb one higher than on the pilot scale. A Pilots' "Light" is often described as "Moderate" by CC, and Pilots' "Moderate" is often called "Severe" down the back. This is not just because of the fact that the ride is harsher down the back, but also because Pilots & CC are different animals, with different ways of expressing themselves. In 26 years, I've been in a lot of light/moderate, occasional moderate and severe only twice. Both the severe involved crew injuries (fortunately minor) and a lot of screaming.

jettesen's Nashville roller coaster sounds very unpleasant. I'd be surprised if it was actually Severe turb all the way, since that might raise a question about the suitability of flying that route on the day: However, he was there, and I wasn't, so I'll accept that it was very bad indeed!! :{

Not being a pilot myself, I'm out on a limb here, so I'll see if I can get someone who is to pass comment.

[SMOC]

Virgin Atlantic has launched an investigation into claims a flight attendant panicked during a turbulent flight and repeatedly shouted to passengers: "We're crashing."

London's The Independent reported pandemonium broke out on a flight from Gatwick to Las Vegas when it was hit by storms and plummeted thousands of metres within seconds.

A man was hurled to the ceiling of the cabin and others clung to seats, but passengers became more alarmed when an attendant on the Boeing 747 began screaming, the paper said.

Claire Daley, one of 451 people on board, hoped the crew would calm her nerves.

"I turned round to look at our hostess for reassurance and she screamed: 'We're crashing, we're crashing, we're crashing',"
"And I just thought: 'It's over; if an air hostess is telling us we are crashing'. I really thought we were crashing,"
"She screamed every time the plane dropped, and when she screamed the whole of the back of the plane screamed"
"It was terrifying. I was almost hyperventilating. I was sobbing - I thought we weren't going to make it."

[BOAC]

'Severe' turbulence is rare. It often leads to a situation where the aircraft cannot be controlled and has to descend.

There has been a fair bit of moderate turbulence across the Atlantic recently. The effect of turbulence can also be dramatically different between the front and back of the aircraft.

As for 'climbing or desending to get out of it' - often the aircraft cannot climb as it is at its maximum height. Descending, unless control difficulties are being experienced, takes a fair bit of organisation over the Atlantic due to the traffic control system. Often the turbulence extends from lower levels to higher and there is 'no escape' anyway.

As said, the passengers are repeatedly told to keep their belts fastened unless they need to move around the cabin. If the signs are on they should all be seated and strapped. If they are not I have little sympathy for them and they risk injuring fellow passengers. If they are strapped in they will be safe, not necessarily comfortable.

Aircraft are built and pilots trained to cope with turbulence.

As with all media I suspect the story anyway!

[striparella]

Lol my mate was on this flight and all he said BEFORE this came out was "There was a bit of bad turbulence over Greenland but nothing major"

He used to be crew so has seen it all before. He menetioned no crew member shouting we're going to crash, no-one else screaming, no-one throwing up....

I suspect it was bad turbulence but you know how the press like to tart up a story!

[SMOC]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16754985&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=we-ll-crash-we-ll-crash--name_page.html

More Journo's at work.

Passenger Paul Gibson, 30, said: "She began screaming every time the plane shook.

"She shouted at the top of her voice, 'We're going to crash! We're going to crash! We're going to crash"

The stewardess, who is in her mid-20s, was terrified. One passenger was smashed into the overhead lockers of the Boeing 747-400 while others, some in tears, gripped their seats and prayed.

"Loads of people were being sick and when someone shouted at the stewardess for more sick bags, she picked up a dozen and threw them across the cabin.

"It was raining sick bags. The aircraft was in chaos.

[tart1]

Putting aside the actual difference in severity between the front and the rear of an aircraft in turbulence..........could the differing perception of pilots and cabin crew sometimes be due to something else quite simple??

The pilots are sat down and safely strapped in and, in total contrast, the cabin crew can experience turbulence unexpectedly whilst standing up, maybe with the trollies out, dealing with hot meals and beverages and with passengers milling around the cabin.

It is scary, let me tell you!! Many years ago I had a turbulent incident when we were unloading the hot meals from the ovens. They were expecting light turbulence so the pax were strapped in but we got the go-ahead from the FD to serve the meal. Suddenly it became extremely rough and the contents of the meals, peas and all, were plastered around the galley and one of the cabin crew hit the ceiling and was knocked out. The cabin was a disaster zone with drinks splattered up the sidewalls and people's belongings thrown many rows away from where they were sitting. The captain was fairly laid-back about it and even a bit surprised at the chaos caused. The cabin crew may well disagree and be inclined to describe such turbulence as 'severe' in those circumstances!! :p :p

[Memetic]

Just for completeness the BBC have the story too...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4759300.stm

[BOAC]

My sympathies to all crew including 'tarti' who have suffered from turbulence. The problem HERE is in definition. Turbulence is graded 'light'/'moderate'/severe' so that it can be reported by one aircraft to another. This has NOTHING to do with the perception of the c/crew or passengers.

It is quite possible for trolleys and crew to be thrown around in 'moderate' turbulence. The whole thing has to be a liaison between pilots and c/crew, and ultimately the decision on what service to conduct is down to the senior crew member.

Of course, if this whole Virgin thing was caused by UNEXPECTED turbulence, there is not much that any pilots can do about it - because it is 'unexpected'. :) Over 80% of the time when I have a met forecast of 'turbulence' it does not occur. Around 40% of the time when there is NONE forecast it does. It is all a constant balance - if it is 'forecast' over a 3 hour period of the flight and the Captain puts on the signs as a precaution - and thereby suspends service of hot drinks at least - and there is NO turbulence, everyone whinges. Perhaps the answer (c/crew cheering, I hear) is to leave the signs on all the flight. Passengers then move around at their own risk and have no claim against the airline for injury if they are not strapped in.

[banewboi]

i myself have been hit with severe turbulence due to a pocket preceding a storm, in the middle of the cabin the aircraft actually appeared to bend, this may or may not have been the case but i know how it looked, you could almost see the floor ripple. the jolt passed down the aircraft and 3 crew were thrown and struck the ceiling aswell as both carts, one cc landing with a cart on her leg.
the pax held us down untill it became heavy jolts and we returned to galleys. in a mild state of panic. the aircraft leveled but because of the situation and number of a/c around us we had to maintain level and for about 1hr we were hittin lots of bumps some heavy enough for items to leave surfaces. it was extremely scary but i knew we were thousands of feet from the suurface but this doesn't stop the feeling that you are simply goin to fall to pieces in the air.
i can perfectly understand anyone's fear and exageration of something bad, (if you've ever been in an rta or air incident or anything for that matter) what does appear to be hours can be just minutes, but sometimes these things are prolonged.
due to current pattern over the atlantic a prolonged bout of turbulence is possible especially as the jet stream has move several times this year.
as or fd and cc, in my experience they strap us in far before we think we have to but this seems to be because they are aware that it's worst in the depths of the cabin than at the pointy end!!

[sixmilehighclub]

A friend of mine had just served out the breakfasts coming in from Hong Kong one morning. She got to the back, stowed everything away and turned to face the cabin. Then they hit a huge airpocket.

She said that it all happened in slow motion..... most of the trays were hovering in midair, along with other items, and then the aircraft levelled out and, well, picture the entire cabin covered in porridge and juice!

Years ago I stood in the back galley of a 737, we hit thermal turbulence and 2 unsecured canisters came out of their stowages. One missed me, one hit me. I had just gotten over that, trying to take my seat and strap in when we hit another airpocket and suddenly I lurch up into the air and bang my head on the ceiling. Thankfully, neither incident hurt!!

[Avman]

Crossing the atlantic in a B707 back in the 80s I experienced several hours of (what was for me) moderate turbulence, punctuated now and again by short bursts of pretty severe stuff. The constant banging into the arm rests bruised the top of my legs! I was sitting in the very last row. Later, when things had calmed down a tad, I visited the f/d and out of curiosity asked the Captain how he classified the turbulence. To my astonishment he replied, "light". I offered to swap places with him!

Don't sit near the back folks. You get the worst of it there.

[skyboy1919]

This subject is very interesting for me, because I myself have been cabin crew for a number of years, flying on everything from an ATR to a 747 and recently was a passenger on a southwest flight that experienced what I would class as severe turbulance. Flight Attendent hit the roof, trolleys went everywhere we dropped out the sky and were being thrown from side to side. Throughout the whole thing I stayed clam, even shouting at passengers to calm down and helped a crew member who was injured by a cart. Since the event, every little bit of turbulance we get ( espically as a passenger, where I think you notice it more ) has been making me feeling pretty nervous. Now I have not been screaming or anything like that, but it does go to show that even the most experienced of crew can get a fright. I am HOPING it will pass with time, I know the logic behind turbulance, so I know I should not be too afraid, but for someone who has not experienced anything like it ( for example, this may have been a newish crew member, or someone who did the job, but was not always completly comfortable with the experience ) it could be pretty frightening.Problem is however Virgin look at it, as far as I am concerned, what use is she going to be in an emergency!

I feel sorry for the girl, but you cannot have a crew member responding to something like turbulance in that way. Imagine a decompression, which is far more frightening, how would she respond to that? And would she be any use to passengers, the whole reason crew are on board ( some airlines do tend to think its just to look good, I prefer the crew to look good, they just need to be useful too )

[RMC]

There are definitions of light moderate and severe (but I cant remember them and cant find in search). What I do know is that severe feels seriously bad and there is confusion amongst pilots (many report light chop as moderate occ severe). Any enlightened beings able to post the definitions.

[sinala1]

Didn't realise that virgin 747 carried 451 pax

LGW based B744: 14J 58W 379 or 380Y (total 451/452)
LHR based B744: 44J 32W 310Y (total 386)


It will be interesting to see what VA's investigation brings up... usually I would doubt anything coming from a lot of the UK's media, however this seems to be a fairly substantiated story? :confused:

[shuttlebus]

A lot of this comes down to experience and peception.

A couple of years back flying into BFS from LHR with BMI, pre christmas, 80-90mph gales across the UK, dark windy night with lots of visible precipitation.... basically a real mucky night.

Shuttlebus down the back in the last row sitting beside a very nice young lady from JAL, travelling back home.

The plane was filled with a mixture of travellers heading home for the hols and families who had been shopping in London i.e. young children and lots of luggage in the OH lockers.

Turbulence all the way up the UK. About half way in to the flight, several of the cabin crew commented to my friend that it was as rough as some could remember.

On the approach in to Belfast it became fairly rough (All journos read extremely rough) and included a few fairly entertaining g unloads caused by downdraughts, followed by the "into the seat" moment as AP tried to maintain profile. All this accompanied by a fair amount of hunting by the auto-throttle.

I was quite happily sitting their alternating my attention between the window and the blond to my right (but mainly to the blond :D) and we were happily chatting away. The rest of the cabin was deathly quiet with the sound of quiet crying to be heard towards the front - it was probably a baby or small child with air sickness...

The landing was fairly entertaining (wind sock was at about 90 degrees to the runway and fully extended) as the removal of the crab angle was accompanied by a more than firm landing. A number of people actually screamed.

Now view the comparison - there were a number of regular travellers and off-duty crew who had faith in the aircraft & crew and were happy the automatics (or crew) were flying!

And then there was a number of people for who the experience was either outside their comfort zone or outside their limit of experience.

So although there was no article in this case, can anyone guess what it might have said? (obviously leaving out any journalistic licence :rolleyes: )

My only interest is IF, note IF, the crew member acted unprofessionally. However, in truth in this sort of situation, I would think it would be hard to tell where the words were coming from. Poor PR for Virgin, but surely not the end of the world :cool:

OK, bet I get flamed!

Regards,

Shuttlebus

[Wycombe]

I was flying VS as pax across the pond on the 24th aswell, but in the opposite direction MCO-LGW on VS16.

Somewhere North of the Azores, we experienced 2 periods of approx 15 mins of rough air - prob only light in category, but enough for us to be strapped in and to make walking around the cabin difficult for the CC during the bigger bumps.

A few kids were sick, only for their unfortunate parents to find out the a/c soon ran out of sick bags :yuk:

At various times, some pax (not those with sick kids as far as I could tell) also ignored the seat belt sign and headed for the loos.

CC milling around my part of the a/c seemed not too concerned and at no point challenged them or told them to sit down :confused:

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Turbulence is a strange thing, it can be very localised. Before Virgin appeared on the route, we were returning Las Vegas to Gatwick at night, approaching Greenland. From the chat, we knew to expect an 'interesting time' - well the Yanks weren't rabbitting on about the baseball/basketball results, always a good clue! My first officer started plotting the temperature change muttering "We're going to hit it any time now!" BOING - on with the cabin signs, warned the cabin crew - and we sat there waiting for it to start, and hearing all the reports from aircraft being badly bounced around just to the south of us. Nothing. On we cruised, smooth as silk, it turned out to be one of the best Atlantic crossings ever! Weird, eh?

Mind you, Boxing Day 1999, over the Alps. This was the day of The Great Storm in France. The 300mb wind was 300/180 and downwind of Mt.Blanc, descending through the mountain rotor into Turin, that was one of the two occasions in my flying career when I would say I encountered severe turbulence.

[Sick Squid]

In my 15 years flying professionally I've experienced severe turbulence only once, following a really nasty windshear go-around in a horrendous storm back in 2000. Neither myself or the FO could read the instruments, the autopilot threw it's hands up and the aircraft was briefly uncontrollable (5 or so seconds) on several occasions before we were spat out of the turbulent area. My PA later was along the lines of "Well, you all enjoyed that about as much as I did.. my professional involvement with Gatwick is over for tonight, we are going to Manchester now where the weather is MUCH nicer."

Most bad turbulence is moderate, but perceived by some as being severe due to lack of exposure. Passenger and crew perception as always worse than the guys at the sharp end.

And another thing... please realise there is no such thing as an "air pocket." Air is a fluid, just like water, and behaves just like water. You expect waves on a lake or a river, and if you look at the edges, or around rocks, you will see eddy currents swirling back on themselves. It is exactly that sort of fluid behaviour that leads to turbulence, not some lack of support from the air itself as is perceived.

Squid

[Dan Winterland]

I can't remeber the exact definition of moderate and severe turbulence but I recall that moderate turbulence states that standing or walking is impossible and severe states that major deviations for heading and level are experienced.

Based on those I don't think that I have ever experienced severe turbulence in an airliner. Also I know form experience that turbulence seems much worse when standing up.

[lexxity]

Over the Gulf of Arabia in August, we had a good rollercoaster for a very good portion of the flight. All service suspended and any crew who were up and about the cabin were being held down by pax or holding onto the under seat struts. According to the IFE maps we were dropping hundreds of feet at a time, then climbing again then dropping, you could hear the engines doing that "roar" they seem to do in bad turbulence. The cc said it was some of the worst they had ever encountered. On arrival at LHR several pax did "a pope" and kissed the floor. It was very, very hairy.

My favourite ride is SFO/RNO as you crest the Sierras the ride is always very bumpy due to the sudden updrafts from the desert. The first time you do the flight it's scary, but once you know what's coming it's good fun.

[MrHorgy]

From my manual:

Light Turbulence - Cabin Service can continue, passengers can feel seatbelts, some light discomfort. Items vibrating on tray tables

Moderate Turbelence - Cabin service should be suspended, some difficulty in walking, moderate discomfort. Passengers forced into seatbelts. Items dislodged / moved from tray tables.

Severe Turbulence - Cabin service impossible, walking around cabin impossible. Unsecured items violently being thrown around the cabin, passengers thrown around in seats.

Well, something like that anyway..

Horgy

[ALLDAYDELI]

What exactly is going on on the North Atlantic currently with weather?
Is it a compulsive low area or just intense jetstream activity? I was sat on a train coming away from LHR yesterday and some ladies just up from the Carribean were discussing a BA plane getting bumped & tossed around with people crying and praying. No joke, you could hear the fear in their voice as they described it.

Another usual "bumpy" area on the South America routes crossing the equator. I'd like to get a greater understanding of this. Does anyone have any stories of disturbances on those routings?
I remeber vectoring round VERY high altitude storms late at night on a Varig flight last year at around that point.

[Basil]

From the Sydney Morning Herald:
<<Douglas Marshall, a BBC journalist on the flight said he heard screams but could not say where they originated.
But he said the flight crew had been "very scared" when during the turbulence.>>
Guess he must have been on the flight deck comforting them :*

[Wycombe]

Alldaydeli,

I'm not a commercial pilot, but have paxed and jumpseated through this area (Atlantic equatorial) a no. of times.

I think you are talking about the ITCZ (Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone) or the "doldrums" as the area is otherwise known.

Others will for sure have better knowledge than me, but IIRC this is the area (between about 8 degrees N and S?) that tends to have big CB's in it pretty much every day of the year.

I recall once being told that diversions of hundreds of miles off-track are not uncommon in this area to find a hole in the weather.

I remember myself once transitting the area at FL350, with towering and pulsating CB's either side, but smooth as you like through the gap. Quite a surreal experience.

[ALLDAYDELI]

Wycombe, exactly what I was referring to.. the surreal experiece, I felt exactly the same at the time. Still curious to know whats going on currently on the north atlantic systems.

[Taildragger67]

Four-hundred and fifty-one...

Oh

My

God


That answers my question as to why, on the one trip I've subjected myself to on VS, I wondered why we disembarked through a door and not through a screw-top roof...

Only one trip? That one was more than enough to cure me.

[pax britanica]

I think it is a bit unfair to scoff at pax reactions beacuse a rough ride really does frighten many people. However crews have almost always been through a fair amount of turbulence and once you realise the plane isnt going to fall to pieces then its not as bad as being in a storm tossed ship.
I also think that in any similar situation the flight crew-who after all are in command of the situation and can see out and part of the fear factor is not being able to get any sensible visiual references are more relaxed because they are in conrol. Is the samecontrast between driving a car and being a passenger in an emergency or sudden stop.As driver you know your foot is moving to the brake pedal and that you are reacting but the pax has no sense of reaction until the brakes bite.
Often crew do not get much prior notice but its always wise to recognise that when the flight deck says 'it might get a bit bumpy in the descent' that in the cabin it will feel very bumpy. Different experiences different perceptions.
When it comes to categorising turbulence past experience probably also applies to crew perceptions A North Europe short haul crew for who CAT3 landings and 10meters rvr in gog /snow etc are no bigtrhing might be more concerned by the same level of turbulence that a pilot whose flying takes him daily to say Atlanta Dallas 0r Denver might shrug off as normal or light
After a great many flights as pax all over the world I have, like many crew grown more relaxed about it - mostly because Ive had the expereince of been through some fairly nasty stuff (and I certainlty wasnt blase about some of those at the time). I would be disconcerted by screaming cabin crew however unless they were obviously very young and thus perhaps not been conditioned by expereicne.
Picking up on another thread about known turbulence areas I used to fly NY to Bermuda lot and this trip involves crossing the region of the Atlantic Gulf stream which usually resulted in some roughness -occasionally very unpleasant-( 2 AA flight attnedent dumped on their bums ) . So I too wonder if crossing areas of known surface temperature change or instability can impact the atmosphere or whether, as could well be the case , the Jet Stream often follows a similar track to the Gulfstream and being forced to cross that virtually at right angles made for some or a lot of chop. Either way mid winter gales in bermuda often produced some relatively 'wild rides' on approach to Bermudas runway which for reasons of geography has large 60-70 degree offset from the really strong winds. If you travelled the route often it was uncomfortable but thats all-if it was your first time being tosse d around ina a yawing rocking 727 descending over a dark ocean with nothing but blackness out the window it was frightening enough for some screaming and praying
As an earlier poster said -look around the cabin and you get a different set of reactions - the calm ones have often flown the mos. Who has typically the most hours airborne on a plane? Usually the FD crew and perhaps occasionally a few more words of reassurance would help ( assuming they have the time while preventing 'death plunges into Orphanages. hospitals infants schools, the bermuda triangle etc , delete where applicable)
PB

[IcePack]

Light Turbulance gives ripples on the martini's Moderate gives white caps. & oh severe is usually classed as temporaly out of control.
I notice over the years that what is now moderate we used to call light and severe what we used to call moderate. In the days of lower level flying on the "big" pistons most pilots were used to turbulance.:ugh:
Today it is really the far East guys who are more used to turbulance than the trans atlantic lot. So definitions are bound to vary. What you are used to lowers your intensity report.:cool:

[GotTheTshirt]

If you read the news story they should have had at least 4 dozen ambulances waiting for the aircraft to collect the dead and wounded but that does not appear to be covered in the story :} :ok:

[sukigirl]

I thought the same, if the turbulence was really as bad as they made out in the papers, ie people being thrown into the fuesalage, hatracks,ceiling etc. Then why were there no ambulances there to meet the aircraft as it landed into las or why didnt they divert? they had at least another 6 hours flight time left to go.

[yachtno1]

Apparently is was pretty dire in the cabin during the turbulence. Pax being sick in the loos and not comming out! Leaving no-where else for the other passengers to throw up. :eek:

[JazzyKex]

Ok, after a good number of attempted definitions I thought it was about time for some official ones - straight out of the manuals.

Light turbulence: Slight changes in attitude or altitude or changes in IAS 5-15 kts

Light chop: Slight bumpiness without changes in attitude or altitude or IAS

Occupants may feel a slight strain against their seatbelts though no difficulty is encountered in walking.

Moderate Turbulence: Similar to light turbulence but of greater intensity, changes in attitude and or altitude occur, IAS fluctuates 16-25 kts, but the sircraft remains in postive control at all times.

Moderate chop: Turbulence that is similar to light chop but of greater intensity causing rapid bumps and jolts without appreciable changes in attitude or altitude.

occupants feel definite strain against seat belts or shoulder harness. Unsecured objects are dislodged. Food service and walking are difficult.

Severe turbulence: Causes large, abrupt changes in attitude or altitude. Aircraft may be momentarily out of control, IAS fluctuates by more than 25 kts.

Occupants are forced against seat belts or shoulder harnesses. Unsecured atems are tossed about. Food service and walking are impossible.

The continuity of turbulence is described as:

Occasional - less than 1/3rd of the time
Intermittent - 1/3 - 2/3rd of the time
Continuous- More than 2/3rd of the time.

Hope this helps some of the non pilots.

JK

[BahrainLad]

As a pax, there are some places that I just know will be turbulent and am pretty used to it...mainly where a body of warm air hits a body of cold air or vice versa viz

Leaving LIS for LHR and you cross onto the Bay of Biscay....usually a pretty severe whallop to coincide nicely with the arrival of the second drink and the meal tray,

BAH to LHR when you go over Istanbul, right in the middle of the night when you've just fallen asleep,

and of course when approaching NCL from the south and you go out over the North sea (crash, bang, whallop, shimmy, rattle) and then back into the prevailing wind on approach.

Great stuff though. Makes you feel like you're really moving!

[Jordan D]

I'm sure this will get bumped out of R&N, but noted this wasn't in a thread:

'No evidence' stewardess panicked says Virgin Atlantic ... full story relating to incident in Feb here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4900660.stm

I make no comment, just post it for information.

Jordan

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

There are always two sides to every story and it would be most unfortunate for a young stewardess was robbed of her professional reputation on heresay alone. I am delighted to see Virgin coming out in support of the crew. It is quite apparent that this was an extremely unusual and frightening situation for everybody on board - including the crew. The mere fact that so many people on board genuinely thought their last moments had come and that Virgin are saying it was the worst such incident in its 22 years history indicate the severity of the situation. It is very easy to be sat in your armchair at home having a titter over what happened but altogether more tricky having to cope with a frightening and apparently life-threatening incident on a real aircraft in flight.

I have always taken the view that true bravery is not facing danger with a total absence of fear but rather being frightened and still performing your duties regardless. It seems to me on that basis the crew were indeed brave and did a great job.

[Idunno]

Some friends of mine were flying that night and ran into the same stuff. Everyone was getting hammered. Their stories about what happened were scary to listen to. Glad I was on the ground that night.

[212man]

MrHorgy,
"Considering most of VA's trips are fairly shortish (i'll be willing to be corrected on this) ..."

Compared to what length of trip?? Their shortest is Lagos at 6 hours, mostly transatlantic (clue is in the name) and far east. Hong Kong or Sydney short enough???

[sinala1]

I think MrHorgy is referring to the length of the trip - ie the time crew spend away from home, rather than the length of the actual sector being flown :ok:

[Faire d'income]

• Severe – 0.5 to 1.5g – Aircraft handling made difficult
• Very severe – above 1.5g – Increasing handling difficulty, structural damage possible
To those who think they were in severe turbulence for 30 minutes or more, it is highly unlikely.
Those who mention heavy items such as crew ( sorry girls ) hitting the ceiling are probably talking about at least mod to severe if not severe turbulence. 30 minutes of that would cause serious damage to the cabin and most cockpits not to mention the occupants. In my nearly 20 years I have never seen severe turbulence last more than seconds.
Q: When you are planned through an area of known severe turbulence for a long period ( such as most winter eastbound Atlantic trips ) how many of you demand a re-route?

[A330busdriver]

Q: When you are planned through an area of known severe turbulence for a long period ( such as most winter eastbound Atlantic trips ) how many of you demand a re-route?


Why? Don't you?

:ooh:

[sky9]

Virgin are saying it was the worst such incident in its 22 years history indicate the severity of the situation.

Perhaps this incident will make airlines review their seat belt policy. I cannot count the number of times I have travelled as a passenger and found both the passengers and cabin crew ignoring the sign. I sometimes wonder what the CC think the report "Cabin Secure" really means.

My understanding of the law is if the seat belt sign is "on", secure the passengers and cabin, then sit down and strap yourself in. Stop passengers from leaving their seats.

[pour_susie]

ok SEP definitions of turbulance.........
Light : slight / rapid / rhythmic bumpiness without changes in alt (liquids shaking but not splashing) Little or no difficaulty walking
Mod: similar to light turb but of greater intensity, causes rapid jolts or bumps without appreciable changes in alt (liquids splash and items are dislodged) difficaulty walking
Severe: Turb in which aircraft is violently tossed around (items falling, lifting off the floor, food service impossible) impossible to walk
:ok:

[flyblue]

My understanding of the law is if the seat belt sign is "on", secure the passengers and cabin, then sit down and strap yourself in. Stop passengers from leaving their seats.

Not always. In my company we have the "Turbulence" procedure, and the "Severe Turbulence" procedure. In the first case, we only get the FSB sign on: we must check the pax SB but don't have to take our seats. In the second case we get the FSB plus an announcement from the F/D "CC, turbulence, take your seats and fasten your SB".
In any case, if the situation is bad, we can ask the F/D to upgrade the procedure from T to ST.

[Few Cloudy]

What is an Air Pocket?

I thought it was where I kept my sunglasses...

[britanniaboy]

My understanding of the law is if the seat belt sign is "on", secure the passengers and cabin, then sit down and strap yourself in. Stop passengers from leaving their seats.

When the seatbelt signs go on for turbulence, the cabin crew have to make sure that pax are seated with seatbelts fastened, infants on laps are also strapped in and that the toilets are empty. There is no requirement for the crew to also take their seats and strap in, unless the Flight Crew request it or if the crew feel that it is too dangerous for them to move around.

The legal definition of cabin secure for landing is passengers seated, cabin secured and crew in their jumpseats ready for landing. This same definition does not apply for turbulence.

[sky9]

Britanniaboy

So you don't give "cabin secure" to the Commander?

[TFlyguy]

The Commander is given "Cabin Secure for Turbulence" which is different to "Cabin Secure for landing" ie the crew are not strapped in. Unless, as Britanniaboy stated, the Flight Crew tell us to sit down and strap in as well.

And to those non-cabin crew on here - have you tried to keep passengers in their seats when the seatbelt sign is on? Theres always some who insist on using the toilets no matter what we say!

[sky9]

It wasn't so long ago that a cabin staff member attempted to sue the commander when she injured herself in turbulence as he had allowed here to move around with the seat belt sign on ( I think it was settled out of court) . It's very much on the commanders head.

[theflyingbus]

I am a currently practising FO with TFly and happened to be on another VS flight at the same time crossing the Atlantic. At the same point (Greenland) we did encounter moderate turbulence for about 40 minutes, with 2 occasions of serious buffet. Being at the back of a 346 it was certainly wild in places, but on the whole I would expect an average day over the Atlantic. It was not much that a period on oxygen could not fix for most! We only had three passengers down for a short while.

For anyone that cares, I hope this helps.

[britanniaboy]

Sky9

Personally, no I don't give cabin secure to the Commander - but then I'm not the in charge! :-P

But yes, we give "Cabin secure for turbulence". Like myself and Tfly said, there is a difference between cabin secure for landing and for turbulence.

[JohnnyRocket]

Are the small bumps in the air really just that - or are you moving a few feet at a time?

For example, the plane bounces along the runway as it taxis, and in the air, the bumps aren't often as bad - but because your senses are heightened, they just "feel" worse. So is it all in the mind?

[papa juliet]

With regard to tech crews grading of severity of turbulence.
I was once listening to Bribane departures/approach who had just received a report from one of B.A.'s unflappable gentlemen reporting a slight but noticable level of turbulence at 10 - 15 thou on climb out.
Approach then called aicraft XYZ on descent had he heard the report?
A pause of about a minute then a repeat of the call, still no reply, a further call, no reply, then finally XYZ called, "sorry for the delay, had to find the phones and mike, they ended up behind the seats, and if that BIG B*****D ever calls moderate I'm walking"
It seems to be a matter of pride never to call severe even when the layer of dust that is usually on the floor is level with your eyebrows and the flies are pinned to the ceiling.
The joys of flying the Eastern seaboard of Aus.on a hot summers day