MOD Civil Service Question

[BellEndBob]

Not very exciting...however...

There is a job coming up soon for a C2 Grade instructor on a simulator. I might be interested but the job is likely to move in a few years. As the family is settled I was wondering if, when job moves and if I go with it, am I entitled to 'Live In' at service rates?
If not, what is the Civil Service line on allowances and the like?

Bob

[airborne_artist]

I'd have thought it more likely that you will be offered a handsome relocation package, rather than a living-in allowance.

[charliegolf]

'Ordinary' civil servants, SEO and below (even Grade 7s) would just get excess fares payments for a fixed (3yr?) period after the move. Dunno about MOD.

CG

Mrs CG is a Civ Serv

[teeteringhead]

Not entitled to live in permanently, other than at ridiculous "economic" rates.

Allowances: as you are still serving (I assume) you should be able to get access to MoD Civil Service manuals through the MoD intranet.

Relocation package is indeed likely (as stated above) if the projected move is to be a one-off. If you don't want (or she doesn't want!!) to move house completely, consider putting gratuity towards small flat for during the week.

[tucumseh]

Bob

The advice to look at the Personnel Manual is good. Used to be called Mod Manual 2. These are entitlements, so don't be put off by the little Adolfs whose job it is to pay you as little as they can persuade you to accept. As a C2 (Sqn Ldr/Lt Cdr/Major equivalent) you are entitled to first class travel - don't set a precedent for yourself by accepting less. The relocation package is poor but check carefully what used to be called "Excess Rent Allowance" which pays you a monthly sum for 5 years, reducing to zero after 9 years, to allow for the difference between house prices. If you are moving from a cheaper area, you may qualify. Get everything in writing.

Finally, be aware you can negotiate salary starting point. Don't just accept starting at the bottom as you will find you earn less than your staff. The pay scales are overlapping so go for the top end. The criteria is experience and whether the job is difficult to fill. I'd say these are as they are always having to advertise in the press.

Good to see MoD have recognised the skills needed to do this job. The posts used to be one grade lower. Best of luck.

[Safety_Helmut]

As a C2 (Sqn Ldr/Lt Cdr/Major equivalent)
The old equivalent grades thing, always gives me a damned good laugh. Generally seems to work okay when ex mil, but career civil servants..............

S_H

[SirToppamHat]

Wise words S_H!

STH

[tucumseh]

I don't see the need for those comments. The guy asked a question and the issue of equivalent grades is important in the context of his financial concerns. If you took the time to read the Grade Descriptions (not Job Descriptions or TORs) of a technical C2, you'd think twice. For example, a technical C2 is required to have already demonstrated the ability to manage 200 staff. C2 is the direct entry grade for a graduate, so by definition they do not meet most of the mandated criteria, and there is no requirement to "catch up". The problem is that the criteria are not strictly applied, and those lacking the required experience are probably those you are thinking of. However, I acknowledge these are now in the majority and in the end it is the front line who suffer. This is the over-riding reason why some projects are disasters while many are delivered with effortless competence. Don't shoot the messenger.

[VP959]

With respect, the daft "grade - rank equivalence" thing on MODWeb is rubbish, and in my direct experience never applied in practice.

Some of the idiots in London may think that a C2 = SO2 but this is not how it works in practice anywhere that I have worked.

Everywhere I have been (quite a few establishments) the applied equivalence has been the more realisitc one below. This has now been decreed by DPA and DLO as the equivalence levels that they apply.

C2 = Lt, Flt Lt,
C1 = Lt Cdr, Sqn Ldr, Maj
B2 = Cdr, Wg Cdr, Lt Col
B1 = Capt, Gp Capt, Col
1* etc and upwards follow same ranks as the mil.

As for allowances, they are not great for civvies. If you are lucky enough to be granted a Public Interest Terms transfer to the new job, then you will get some of the costs of your move of house etc paid, but will often find yourself out of pocket (I know, I've done it 4 times now).

As a new starter, then you may not be offered any relocation deal at all..............

The advice to treat all offers etc from Bath with suspicion and fight to get the best deal is all very true, in my experience if you don't press for your entitlement then you will dip out.

VP

[tucumseh]

VP959

I agree that is how it is applied in HQ posts. As I said, a C2 = Sqn Ldr etc, but the rules state that in a HQ post (and DPA/DLO qualify) the serving officer may be "elevated" one step, as long as he is on his 2nd tour or more (a Whitley Council ruling). Another rule that is widely ignored. However, this artifical elevation has its limitations because, for example, the Sqn Ldr can't sign for the C2's expenses etc. Well he can, but the paying office will throw it back if they spot it, as they work to Treasury rules.

Just remember, if you are ever posted to DPA or DLO as a Requirements Manager or an ILS Manager...... Regardless of your rank I, as a Project Manager, am REQUIRED to know how to do your job. And, if you do not know how to do it, or do not want to do it (!!), I am REQUIRED to do it for you, in my own time, without reward. Just one of those little Grade Description issues I mentioned.

Confirmed many times at (junior) Ministerial level and again via FOI. And applied frequently in DPA.

[VP959]

I have seen many teams, including my own, where SO2s have line managed C2s without there being any problems. I can't recall ever seeing guidance re: second tour only SO2s only being "elevated" to this responsibility and can recall at least two newly promoted SO2s taking on civilian line management at this level within one of my teams without any problems.

The issue of travel claim authorisation etc disappeared some time ago for civvies, when self-authorisation was introduced for the lower grades.

Having managed mixed service/civvie teams several times in my career I cannot ever recall the generally used rank equivalence I scribbled above being queried by either "side".

By whichever yardstick one chooses to use, be it responsibility, experience, competence or pay it is extremely hard to equate C2 to SO2, in my view. Frankly, given the ability of quite a large number of C2s it's hard enough to equate them to SO3.................

VP