How are people affording to complete their training? [Archive]

Andy_20

26th Feb 2006, 18:48

Its costs generally around 30k to complete a zero to frozen ATPL, and once completed people dont generally get into the big jobs until completed so many hours. I was wondering how people are coping in raising the capital to be able to afford undertaking training!? im not meaning i want a total description into peoples personal details, just in general. Ive worked out it will take me 2 yrs 9 months saving 900 a month to be able to afford undertaking it, but that only covers if i pass every module first time. Any informaiton much appreciated

Regards

FlyingForFun

26th Feb 2006, 19:05

So many ways for so many people.

For me, it was a combination of a) having a good job, which funded me through most of my training. Then, when I quit that job to work as a flying instructor, b) re-mortgaging my house to fund my IR.

FFF
------------

smith

27th Feb 2006, 07:21

I sold my house and traded down to an appartment.

soviet bloc

27th Feb 2006, 09:14

30k... are you having a laugh, maybe you know a cheaper school than me :)
I found the quickest and cleanest way was to borrow a lump sum by putting my house on the line, I looked into royal bank of scotland and hsbc.
depends if you go integrated or modular, really with integrated you pretty much need all the £ up front, and don't forget to allow living expenses and delays. some of the guys on my integrated course had left pretty good jobs, borrowed the money and then went back to their old job after finishing training and before getting a real job, so that's a good option.
hope you find the best way for you. regards
sb

wbryce

27th Feb 2006, 10:08

best method for me...is working full time while using monthly wages to learn part time.

Come IR I will probably need a bank loan but hopefully I should only have the financial burden of the average new car owner come that time.

MorningGlory

27th Feb 2006, 10:18

Worked full time, PPL at weekends, sold flat, left work for 9 months did multi,& hr building & Full time ATPL groundschool, ran out of money. Went back to work full time for a year during which I did my CPL at weekends.. Left work again, did IR and MCC full time. Back to work for 3 months, then got first flying job on a jet.

Total cost including everything from training to chewing gum (living expenses) - £55K.

:ok:

Grass strip basher

27th Feb 2006, 11:17

Try working.... many people fail to factor in the lost earnings when giving up work to study/train full time. Staying in full time employment for all of your training is possible and lowers the risks involved as it minimises the debt you take on and keeps the money coming in until you land that first job.

Certainly the way I am going anyway

Mintflavour

27th Feb 2006, 12:09

Spread my zero to 400hrs over six years, long time yes, but at minimal risk, I was only on 17K from my full time job after I left uni, Paid off uni debts then started flying shortly after. I only got one loan to enable me to pay for my CPL/ME and FI without going over drawn. All my training was done part time at weekends and holiday, (never had to take unpaid leave, and kept the same job). During this time I moved out of my parents home and bought a house (had no choice at the time as the parents were moveing overseas).

Now, my income has increased, I Instruct at weekend for a little extra income +flying hours +enjoyment. Loan paid off, I extended my mortgage by 10K to pay for my IR which Im just finishing off over the next month as again this is all done on a part time basis.
MCC or CTC hopefully by the end of May this year.
All of this done by the age of 31 with the only burden of an extra £60/month on my mortgage over the next 20 Years.

mint

Oh, just before any body mentions what about TR, sorry I refuse to pay for one unless it is bond for a guarenteed job, I feel very very strongly about this.

femaleWannabe

11th Apr 2006, 09:01

found this thread so thought I'd bump it up a bit as I have a question. I'm just starting my PPL and am planning to keep working full time (graduated 9 months ago - not fantastic salary but good enough) and try to avoid taking too much of a loan.

I've been looking into ATPL, ME/IR/CPL courses to try and work out a rough schedule. My problem is that I can't seem to find an ATPL distance learning course that will fit around my work holiday entitlement. I get 5 weeks per year but most courses seem to want you to complete the course within a year and that includes 3 weeks compulsory groundschool and 3 weeks exams... how are other people doing it?! I don't want to take unpaid leave - not only do I need the money, but I can't see my employer being overly happy!

Grass strip basher

11th Apr 2006, 09:30

Female wanabee I am pretty much in the same boat as you. Unfortunately as far as I am aware there is no ATPL ground school provider that currently lets you do the compulsory ground school bit at the weekend... unebelievable I know but I think its true.

I ended up going with London Met because they split the course down into 3 modules rather than the typical 2 at places like Oxford and BGS. This means that you only ever have to have 4-5 days out of work at a time.

It is not ideal but hey I'm getting there slowly.

P.S. I think you are very sensible working as you go along... some of the debt people get into to get hold of that little blue book is mind numbing!

bfato

11th Apr 2006, 09:36

femalewannabe, does your leave entitlement run on calendar years? Then Start the distance learning in summer of year 1, finish it in summer of year 2. You'd keep HR happy by only taking three weeks leave per year, but you'd still finish the distance learing in 12 months.

Though I didn't think Bristol GS had a 12 month restriction.

femaleWannabe

11th Apr 2006, 09:43

Grass strip basher, thanks for the reply. I emailed london met asking if I could spread the course over 18 months so I could work out my leave. Also asked how long each exam period was... thinking I could do 2 phases one leave year (4 weeks off) and then another phase the next leave year (2 weeks off). All they did was send me 6 word docs to read - none of which answered my question!

bfato, my leave year runs from april to april... the schools I've looked at so far have set schedules which they want you to stick to, which doesn't work out too well for me. I'll take a look at Bristol again - I think I found their website to difficult to understand :\

aztec25

11th Apr 2006, 09:45

Bristol will fit your requirements perfectly - there are no restrictions - just done my 14 with them. Give them a call and speak to Anouska Pyke or Alex Whittingham. They will put your mind at rest.

femaleWannabe

11th Apr 2006, 10:22

thanks aztec, after looking at their website again, I understand how the dates fit together. It seems you can choose any classroom dates for module 1, then do the exams the week after, then choose any date for module 2... will still need to take 3 weeks off work both times, but it should fit in ok. And as an added bonus, easyjet fly to bristol :D

aztec25

11th Apr 2006, 10:24

Just one other thing to consider there is a time limit from sitting your first exam to passing your last - I think it's 18 months.

Good luck - PM me if you need any further info on BGS.

Mintflavour

11th Apr 2006, 11:43

FW,
And further, BGS used to continue to work through the bank holidays (apart from Xmas and not sure about easter) so this also helps to save a days holiday with work.

Mint

femaleWannabe

11th Apr 2006, 12:00

FW,
And further, BGS used to continue to work through the bank holidays (apart from Xmas and not sure about easter) so this also helps to save a days holiday with work.

Mint

That sounds good, I'm in edinburgh so get the scottish bank holidays, which are usually totally different to the english ones anyway - so could work out really well if I plan it right. Thanks for all the advice guys. :ok:

ultimatepro63

11th Apr 2006, 13:04

Well if you are fortunate to be at a age like me, you can save up now !

femaleWannabe

11th Apr 2006, 13:10

Well if you are fortunate to be at a age like me, you can saving up now !

hehe, I started saving when I was about your age... got a part time job when i was 16, bought a car and went to uni when i was 17... bought a flat when i was 18, I'm now 21 and its all gone :{

v6g

11th Apr 2006, 15:52

For me it was a combination of a well paying job and training in a country where it's a tax deductible training expense. Flying in Canada is half the price of UK but twice the fun, plus it's tax deductible (as its professional training).

So, I saved 50% doing it all in Canada. Then another 40% deducting it from my tax return. Total PPL - CPL - Multi - MIFR is about GBP13,000 in total. It'll cost me a further GBP10-12k to convert back to JAA though and it's taken me a few years longer than otherwise, but in the long run I've had the time of my life learning here plus coming out with no debt.

A loving wife helps too.

ultimatepro63

11th Apr 2006, 16:01

hehe, I started saving when I was about your age... got a part time job when i was 16, bought a car and went to uni when i was 17... bought a flat when i was 18, I'm now 21 and its all gone :{

How much were you able to save up ? (Just wanting to get the general idea)

femaleWannabe

11th Apr 2006, 18:12

How much were you able to save up ? (Just wanting to get the general idea)

Well when I started my part time job at 16, I was working on average 30 hours a week (at the same time as school - wouldn't recommend it!) so managed to earn about £4k a year. Back then, minimum wage was £4.20!!

Ben Parkin

11th Apr 2006, 19:18

PrecisionLandings

11th Apr 2006, 22:15

Hi guys currently on the last week of my study for ground school. Just wondering i know that the HSBC loan route is shut down. Just wondering does anyone know of any companys giving good rate to pilots or good rates in general. Been having a good look around myself just wondering if any one had any advice or experience on specific companys.

Regards

Precisionlandings:D

v6g

11th Apr 2006, 22:55

Try doing close protection work in Iraq like me , loads of tax free money and will have more than enough cash to start training at the start of next year, Not advisable in hindsight , but i think it will be worth it in the end, hey ho !

Thanks for the offer but I'll stick with my (boring) but cosy and warm desk job for the time being!

I'll be thinking of you next time someone spoils my day!

no sponsor

12th Apr 2006, 10:08

I built up a successful career which pays a decent wage. I worked for a number of years, in the meantime I got my PPL and built up some hours.

Having debt looks easy, but I think it is the last thing you want to do, particuarly when SSTR, working for peanuts, and having to work away from home are the order of the day.

I've met many who borrowed the money, but an equal amount who have been loaned money by parents and family. The latter is clearly the easier means.

Working for 5+ years to save isn't ideal. I am constantly aware that for those who simply borrowed the cash are now some years ahead of me. In addition, the older you are the more routes get closed to you. It also seems to be harder and more expensive the longer you leave it.

femaleWannabe

12th Apr 2006, 10:46

I agree that the longer you wait, the harder it gets, but it also gives you more life experience, and I think that having to save up the money first will make you appreciate it a bit more when you finally get there.

I used to want to borrow £60k and go and do an integrated course, but then I realised i'd have to either sell my flat, or double my mortgage, with no guarantee of a job at the end. So having graduated from uni a few months ago, I've got quite a good job and can afford to do my PPL. I'm going to try and fund the rest of my training as I go along, but will no doubt have to take some sort of loan towards the later stages. Also, funding it yourself instead of going for some kind of bond such as ctc, means you can start on the first officer pay scale and not a cadet one... I guess this really depends on how much of a loan you end up having to pay anyway, but I think for me at least, it will work out better.

Anyone tried gambling / stock market / investments to get the money?

no sponsor

12th Apr 2006, 11:37

A home owner only a few months after leaving Uni! You must be doing well. It took me a few years before I had enough cash to put a decent deposit down on my house.

Does it feel any better if you paid for it yourself? I don't feel that way. But, when looking at my blue book with my ratings and thoughts about how much cash it took me to get there, then I'm just pleased I don't have any debt. I still have my house too.

The comment about it getting harder relates to constant changes in regulations and further hoops to jump through.

- Five years ago, anyone with a SSTR would pretty much get a job. Nowadays this is not the case.
- CTC wasn't around 5 years ago pumping ab-initios into Easy Jet or the other charters, effectively cutting off the natural route modular students would take - now you can't get into certain airlines unless you've gone through a certain training organisation and are below a certain age.
- The wannabe market is flooded with people who borrowed the cash overnight. There was much less of this several years ago.
- What effect will licence changes have in the future - what about this multi-pilot licence?

As I said, things continue to change. You just don't know how it will evolve over the next few years.

Now, I'm facing another hurdle of money to throw at the career with thoughts of a SSTR, or becoming a FI. It never ceases to amaze me where people get the money to do all of this when they don't have another career to fund the change.

sicky

14th Apr 2006, 17:03

So HSBC don't offer their loan anymore?

raviolis

15th Apr 2006, 00:57

Sometimes I wonder if I live on another planet.

I'm 26, with a decently paid job in education and somehow struggling to get to the end of my PPL (getting there, but slowly. The Scottish weather has been putting a brake on it anyway !) yet there's a whole lot of 19 years old ready to start an integrated or about to finish a modular route.

I wonder if I use the same currency as some of you guys ?

With the best intentions, I can't expect to get near to an ATPL before the age of 29 or 30, and that already takes into consideration avoiding fancy holidays, new car and expensive night life !

Having said that, the pleasure of getting there the long and hard way round makes every single minute spent in the air amazing and priceless !

Good luck to everybody

femaleWannabe

16th Apr 2006, 10:41

raviolis,
Where in scotland are you? I'm in edinburgh, have only had one lesson so far and already know where you're coming from with the scottish weather!

I'm hoping to have finished training by the time I'm 26/27, but it all depends on whether I can save up the cash, and get enough time off work... I can't afford to stop working but am beginning to wonder who it's possible to do all the training without taking unpaid leave :\

no sponsor

16th Apr 2006, 11:05

Taking unpaid leave will make it easier on yourself. I couldn't imagine doing the IR with a full-time job.

I took unpaid leave, and used my holiday too. For the ATPL groundschool, I saved up two weeks holiday from one year and carried that over into the following year. I used a total of six weeks from my holiday to do the residential part of the distance learning course, including the exam weeks. I had enough leave left to take a weeks holiday too!

I arranged with work to take four months unpaid leave for part of my hour building, the MEP, CPL and IR. I took 14 weeks to do that part.

I gave the business I work for one year's notice to do this, since I knew it would take around 10-12 months to do the groundschool. I couldn't believe that they actually had an unpaid leave request form for me to fill out.

The CPL could be done part-time. It's easier than the PPL. I would strongly recommend to anyone that this is done at a good school in the US if you are on a time constraint. My CPL took little over 1 week to do, but elapsed time and wasted days due to poor weather made it take 4 weeks. (I did the 15hr course, since I had done my IR, otherwise its the 25hr course). Some people had taken well over 2 months to do the course. In the US you are guranteed decent weather, so for me I really regretted not getting it done in the US with OATS. Unfortunately, I realised this far too late on, and OATS had no spaces for a couple of months.

femaleWannabe

18th Apr 2006, 12:40

I think I've figured out how to plan it all without taking unpaid leave...

2006 do PPL and carry a weeks holiday over
2007 3 weeks atpl, 1 week hour building, 1 week holiday! carry 1 week
2008 3 weeks atpl, 2 weeks cpl/mep, doing the rest at weekends, 1 week holiday
2009 3 weeks IR, 2 weeks doing mcc/joc etc, hopefully get new job!

Maybe that is a bit optimistic, but I'll see how things go. Worst case scenario, I finish a year later... :\

no sponsor

18th Apr 2006, 14:28

I think you need to plan 6-8 weeks to do the IR. 3 weeks is a bit optimistic.

No need to spend 2 weeks doing a MCC course either. I did mine over a weekend, plus 5 weekday evenings (1hr brief, 4hrs for each sim slot).

femaleWannabe

18th Apr 2006, 14:32

could I do some of the IR at weekends and then finish it off with 3 weeks straight? That's how I'm hoping to do the CPL.. start doing it at weekends then complete it 2 weeks full time including test. Not sure if this is a good idea with the IR though. If I don't have to put aside too much time for the MCC, etc, I could dedicate 4 complete weeks to the IR, doing the rest at weekends... hmm.. this is never gonna work.

GusHoneybun

18th Apr 2006, 16:39

Don't know what job you are in at the moment FW, but is there anyway you can work 4 days on, 4 days off. I know a few people who completed their training in their days off whilst keeping full time jobs. however, by far and away the best way to complete the CPL/ME IR training is to do it full time.
if the reason you need to continue working is because you have a mortgage to pay then it may help to consider alternatives.
first, you could move back home with your folks and rent your place out when training. takes the mortgage payments out of the equation.
or sell your flat. will free up some capital for training and you won't be worrying all the time about boilers blowing up or roofs leaking :*. when you finish training you will need to be prepared to up sticks and move to the other end of the country for work. harder to do if you have a gaff to worry about. plus when your a shiny new FO earning megabucks in your fancy airbus, you can always buy another place.

oh, and just for your info, the scottish weather isn't all that bad if you know where to look. i have instructed a few zero to ppl students (plus night qual) in a tad under three weeks. all this in the middle of january in the frozen north of scotland.

femaleWannabe

18th Apr 2006, 17:44

The main problem with work is that I've only been there a few months, so I don't think they'd look too kindly on me asking for time off / working part time etc. Also, it's a really small company (only 6 of us) so I'd be struggling to keep it quiet. If they knew I was taking time off to train for another career, they may well just tell me to go. I don't like to take advantage, they're pretty good to me already - just a shame it's not my first choice of career!

I've thought about moving back home and renting this place out, if I was giving up work and getting all my training done in a a couple of years, I'd go for it, but I'm looking at 4 years minimum, it's not really an option. My parents reckon they can loan me most of the money if it's spread out over a few years, and i pay them back when I can, so I guess that takes care of most of the cash flow issues, its just the time off work! Maybe I could take a month of unpaid leave in 2009 or something to do the IR, say I want to go travelling... although when I leave to join an airline, it may be a bit obvious...:\

Thanks for the point about scottish weather, you've given me some hope! Fingers crossed for the weather this weekend - I really want to get started properly. Have ordered all the books, so I'm planning to get the exam study done on all the days I can't fly :(

DUB-GREG

18th Apr 2006, 18:29

captwannabe

18th Apr 2006, 18:53

Everyone is talking about paying it and going the long route. I plan to get into Oxford or JEREZ (Both very good schools by the looks of things) who then on passing their entrance and aptitude exams will organise a loan for you?

Am i mad or the only one looking at this?

Oh and the weather in Ireland has been crap too! ;)

I'm thinking along similar lines to you, for me it's between FTE and CTC at the moment (or the unlikely chance of a sponsorship!).

Weather in Ireland is crap! Availability of aircraft is crap! You'd spend way too much money relearning. Only place in Ireland I would consider is PTC.

Anyone know when the JAA MPL is coming into effect? Will it reduce course prices? What will the Skill Test be like? (I guess we'll have to start a new thread for this)

sicky

18th Apr 2006, 18:56

i'm looking at that aswell, and we're all mad :p

What exactly is the MPL all about?

Andy_20

18th Apr 2006, 18:57

If your getting a loan to pay for ALL your training? how are you going to be able to support and pay back the loan through training? Also once completed training you might have to put down a bond, so then again ANOTHER loan? will you ever be out of debt?!

captwannabe

18th Apr 2006, 19:03

[quote=sicky]we're all mad :p quote]

Well if you want to be a pilot you must be! Why else would we want to do this?! :D

(Think that partly answers you're question Andy_20) ;)

mcgoo

18th Apr 2006, 19:14

Everyone is talking about paying it and going the long route. I plan to get into Oxford or JEREZ (Both very good schools by the looks of things) who then on passing their entrance and aptitude exams will organise a loan for you?

Am i mad or the only one looking at this?

Oh and the weather in Ireland has been crap too! ;)

not everyone wants to be £100,000 in debt, when it can be done for about a quarter of that and in a similar time scale!

littco

18th Apr 2006, 19:30

Everyone is talking about paying it and going the long route. I plan to get into Oxford or JEREZ (Both very good schools by the looks of things) who then on passing their entrance and aptitude exams will organise a loan for you?

Sorry to point this out, but a loan is a loan, whether its from Oxford or not it's still a loan! Oxford will only assist you in getting a loan with Natwest, but you still have to have the required equity in your property or your parents are willing to msecure the loan against their house.. If non of these is possible then, Natwest will only lend you £25K anyway, so you're still be £60k short! and even if Natwest will lend you the money its still only £50k so again your still have to find the extra £35k needed ( this includes living expenses! ) and it will be 1-2% above the base rate anyway! If interest rates go up so will the amount you owe and if it ever got up to 8-10% you will be looking at twice the payments than it is now.

Oh then you have to pay back £85K over 11 years..and your £50k original loan would have cost you over £80k by the time you've paid the interest.. Sorry but do the maths and you'll see the Oxford way isn't great way you might think it is!

And no your not the only one looking at it, most have just dismissed it!

femaleWannabe

18th Apr 2006, 19:35

A lot of people will say that if you want it badly enough, it doesn't matter how you go about it or how much debt you get into, you're following your dream and doing what you've always wanted.... I don't want to secure a loan against my parents house, I don't want to sell my flat, I don't want to give up work and end up £100k in debt with no job.... I'd rather try and do it part time with as small a loan as possible (25k max).... I'm beginning to wonder if maybe I don't want it badly enough?!

mcgoo

18th Apr 2006, 19:39

femaleWannabe

18th Apr 2006, 19:51

FW I totaly agree with you, my max loan will hopefully be about £25k and paying the rest myself, I could never secure my parents house on my training whether they offered or not and those that do must be mad!

Thank you mcgoo, good to know I'm not alone!

I've always wondered this... surely when airlines interview, they'd be looking for (among other things) people who don't take too much of a risk (being responsible for lives etc!) so why is it they prefer integrated students - where most of them will more than likely have taken a hell of a risk with a huge loan and parents house etc? Or does this just show that there is a strong desire (do whatever it takes) to fulfill one's ambitions? (I have nothing against integrated students btw, just wondering about all of this!)

mcgoo

18th Apr 2006, 19:56

I think its because there is less of a risk, the integrated courses have pre course aptitude tests and interviews and the course is standardised and so the airlines know what they are getting from a school, they can just say to a school "right send along 50 students" and pick who they want from that rather than have to wade through thousands of cv's and hundreds of interviews.

captwannabe

18th Apr 2006, 20:01

Femalewannabe,

It's not that integrated students have more desire, it's because the course is all structured, under the one roof, and tightly controlled. That's why some airlines prefer it, but they also hire those who went the modular route.

sicky

18th Apr 2006, 21:30

If you look into it, the loans they help you get don't need to be paid back until 18months after the loan date/6months after training. However, they will obviously occur interst during this period. I believe FTE's financial partner's rate is currenty about 3.5% or something, half of what it would be with OAT or elsewhere.

I plan to raise a comfortable amount to have sitting in the bank, just in case, throughworking before i commit myself to this.

femaleWannabe

19th Apr 2006, 07:01

DUB-GREG

19th Apr 2006, 10:51

captwannabe: I just got sick of the weather (ie. flying in ireland so slow to just get a ppl) Drop me a PM for a chat?

littco: In realaion to ATPL, I have a good relationship with my mother and we gave EVERY optition a look at, from doing it here in Ireland to going a cheaper way etc.

The best way I found from discussing it with people and in the industry and friends, was to get i done in one go (JEREZ or OAT etc)

NO DISTRACTIONS, no breaks. Get it ALL done, just like any other industry or college course.

In relation to the loan. YES, its a MASSIVE amount of money. It is life changing stuff.

I hope i didnt give the impression that it was a drop of the hat decision i was making? Its not, i want to fly, its like a hunger in me and its something ive always wanted to do.

Ive been flying on and off (because of weather and other circumstances) here in Ireland over the past 2 or so years and i DONT even have my PPL yet. That will show you how slow the schools are and how bad ireland is for training.

I know this is a job i want to do, my family know this and im lucky to have them and have the support from them, that not everyone would have.

They say if you want something bad enough and have the drive to do it, YOU WILL. No matter what.

Im willing to get a massive loan, be in debt for years, but at least i can say i was happy in a job, i really really wanted to do!

Ps. Ive found this site fantastic for information on everything!

sicky

19th Apr 2006, 18:31

It's not really the timescale which would worry me, its the amount of the repayments! £60k over 20 years is £250 a month, and thats without calculating the interest. If you're paying mortgage/rent and other bills, that's a lot to add on, especially if you don't find a job straight away. I know I couldn't fund that on my current salary, so I'd be relying on an airline job to pay back the loan - not something I can do :\
Over 20 years it's still a lot - where does the loan over 20years?

I've heard of it only over 11years at the most so far, and was told that it's about £800p/m :eek:

Thats an astonishing amount, if i could stretch it over 20years i'd love to be able to do that as it gives me a chance of paying it off without necessarily needing an airline job (i hope) but also if an airline job/decent job is secured it may be possible for afford a mortgage aswell (all be it a small one :p)

I may be wrong though, as i'm no great economist ;)

femaleWannabe

19th Apr 2006, 18:37

20 years would be if you secured it on something, or added it onto a mortgage.... I think thats what I may end up doing.... who knows.

asuweb

19th Apr 2006, 20:42

I've certainly not heard of it over 20 years. From experience, an 11 year loan will incur repayments of between £500 - £600 per month. Repayments starting 6 months after course completion.

Damienmk

19th Apr 2006, 20:48

Guys,

I find this thread very interesting for a variety of reasons, the main one of course being the subject of financing an ATPL.

I recently qualified and have, along the way, met plenty other pilots and over a beer or two, we have all had our "stories" to tell about the struggle it is to become a commercial pilot.

This may sound like an "ad" but I can assure you it isn't. I now design training plans around the needs of individuals who want to become commercial pilots. I am now employed and having followed the route I have AND knowing what the industry is looking for, I am ideally placed to offer advice to those of you who wish to pursue your dream.

Check my posts and you will be able to figure out my background so you will know I am genuine. Feel free to PM me if you wish to know further.

DMK

femaleWannabe

20th Apr 2006, 07:43

I've certainly not heard of it over 20 years. From experience, an 11 year loan will incur repayments of between £500 - £600 per month. Repayments starting 6 months after course completion.

quick example I found on google, no idea about the company, but they certainly do secured loans over 25 years!

http://www.directonlineloans.co.uk/uk_secured_loans.asp

zomerkoning

20th Apr 2006, 08:54

Hye Guys (and Girls offcourse),

Here in the Netherlands the situation is quite a bit different than in England. The Schools have I think reconized that unless people are able to pay for the course they are going to have very little customers. Most of the schools only do integrated, be it alone (KLS, NLS, Stella) or in cooperation with other schools (EPST --> OAT, EAA --> AeroMadrid).

Basicly if you pass all the assements (which are quite though here) at one of the major schools (EPST, NLS, KLS) you will always be able to get a loan, without any security. The schools have a "guarentee-fund" which puts up the security for the student. Because this fund is so massive, the banks also give very good rates. My deal that I have is that I have a loan for 114.000 euro's (for the integrated course, living expenses and insurance) and the option to excersise a second loan upto 36.000 euro's (if I have to pay my type rating), interest rate is 5,1% payable over 25 years. No security so my parents are happy that they didn't need to use the house for it.

Additionally the bank has an agreement that I can delay repayments to a maximum of 2 years after I finish the course so that I can find a job without the added stress of having to start paying back the day I finish.

I think the reason the major schools have done this, is to attract the students from all walks of life (the quality of a student shouldn't be measured by the size of his wallet). In any case, I find it a sweet deal :)

G

Grass strip basher

20th Apr 2006, 11:01

I would love to see OAT guarantee payment of a student's debt in the event of them not getting a job post graduation!.... that really would back up their marketing hype with real substance and show some faith in their own product and quality of their selection process! :}

captwannabe

20th Apr 2006, 19:50

They wouldn't need a marketing department if that was guaranteed! :E

littco

20th Apr 2006, 21:17

My deal that I have is that I have a loan for 114.000 euro's (for the integrated course, living expenses and insurance) and the option to excersise a second loan upto 36.000 euro's (if I have to pay my type rating), interest rate is 5,1% payable over 25 years. No security so my parents are happy that they didn't need to use the house for it.
Additionally the bank has an agreement that I can delay repayments to a maximum of 2 years after I finish the course so that I can find a job without the added stress of having to start paying back the day I finish.
I think the reason the major schools have done this, is to attract the students from all walks of life (the quality of a student shouldn't be measured by the size of his wallet). In any case, I find it a sweet deal :)
G

Let me get this right, you could borrow £103.000 should you wish? over 25 years and even at 5% that's over £110,000 in interest alone, so your training is going to cost you £213,000 ..

Sorry but that is utter utter madness!

zomerkoning

21st Apr 2006, 07:39

I can stretch it to 25 years if I wish, but if I want to make it shorter, that's no problem. It's just that the bank indicated that 25 years is the maximum.

scroggs

21st Apr 2006, 09:19

So let's say you decide to repay your £103,000 over 10 years. At 5% thats £5150 in interest per year, plus £10,300 capital repayment. That's a total of £15,450 per year, or £1288 per month.

You must be expecting to earn a great deal of money to make that kind of deal worthwhile! I don't spend that much on my mortgage, and I'm probably in the top 5% of earning capability in this industry! This world is going loopy...

Scroggs

femaleWannabe

21st Apr 2006, 09:22

I don't even earn £1288 a month!! There's "debt" and then there's financial suicide....:eek:

Damienmk

21st Apr 2006, 19:07

The sums of money being talked of here are ridiculous. It doesn't have to be that way. I got my fATPL for a little over £40K and that includes exam fees etc. I still have the same bits of paper as those who spent in excess of £70K. Utter madness in my eyes.

Still, as the saying goes, "There are none so easily parted than a fool and his money".

I would urge you all to do your research very carefully and you will see that there are ways of acheiving your dreams without killing yourself financially.

femaleWannabe

21st Apr 2006, 19:57

Couldn't agree more Damienmk. I can't understand why anyone would want to do that to themselves... for the love of flying? I think my love of flying would go out the window if I had that amount of debt :}

I see no reason not to go the modular route... work full time, save £4k - £5k per year, letting you do roughly one module per year, and in 4 or 5 years you're most of the way there and can take a smaller (£20k ish) loan to fund the rest.... then at least if you don't get an airline job straight away, the debt is manageable.

I really dread to think how much anyone would have to earn in order to pay £1288 a month in loan payments, plus a mortgage and all other bills... I know I spend about £500 a month not including mortgage (another £500) or FOOD or petrol... not to mention that thing called a social life. Actually, (you're all probably bored by now) if I add it up, i'd have to earn over £2288 a month after tax, just to break even. That's £27k a year, around £40k gross....point me in the direction of the airline which pays that to low hour first officers!! vbmenu_register("postmenu_2532227", true);

no sponsor

21st Apr 2006, 21:37

I always wondered why so many Dutch had licences.

My mortgage isn't £1288 per month, and my takehome pay is around £5k per month after tax. If I had to pay a mortgage on top of that, I'd be really unhappy. But how could you possibly pay that amount off on a F/O salary and live as well? Maybe the Dutch get a tax break...

A millstone springs to mind...:ugh:

zomerkoning

22nd Apr 2006, 12:07

All right, I think I should give people some more facts. Yes, I do get a loan of 114.000 Euro's, actually it's much less, but this includes the intrest over the time I'm training, all my insurance costs, living expenses, accomadation etc. So that is the total amount which I will be spending on my intergrated course and additional costs not a penny more. The aditional space is there for IF I get into a situation where a job is offered but I have to pay for my TR. This is quite a good deal in my opinion, I don't have to use it, but it's there if the need arrises. How many people have a huge debt after their training and can't get a job because the job they got offered involved them having to pay for their own TR and they couldn't get an additional loan.

Yes, 114.000 euros is 79.000 pounds, all that money for an integrated course and yes it is a LOT of money. But I decided to go the intergrated route, a modular course just isn't a viable option in The Netherlands as we have only a small number of places where you can do it and the prices are skyhigh.

I don't want to get into the discussion if intergrated is better than modular, my personal opnion is to get my fATPL as fast as possible and to start searching for a job. I have talked to a number of pilots (Transavia, KLM, Cathay) and most of them advised me to go integrated getting into the job cycle as early as possible has it's advantages.

In reply to No Sponsor, yes Dutch do have a significant tax break in regards to schooling costs. All our training costs are tax diductable (correct spelling??). You can do this with carry-back (max 3 years) and carry-forward (max 8 years). This basicly means I get all my income tax I payed in the last 3 years (at 41.5% it's quite a bit of money) back. Additionally, I don't pay any income tax for the next 8 years. Take all that money and suddenly the picture is quite different.

Dutch tax laws are quite good, yes you do pay upto 52% income tax, but all intrest on a mortgage are also tax diductable.

I do have to admit that it is still a lot of money, and there are people who have said I'm insane for doing it, but I love to fly and want to become a pilot. Expensive it is, but not financial suicide. Although I will be on bread and water for the coming 10 years ;)

Hopefully Scroggs doesn't think I'm a complete Loon anymore :)

pipertommy

22nd Apr 2006, 16:09

So how do you keep your flying current,paying loads each month?is everyone instucting?

scroggs

23rd Apr 2006, 11:58

£79,000 including interest is a lot better, but it's still a lot of money! However, the Dutch tax breaks (which I wasn't aware of) do make the whole thing a lot more achievable. I assume these tax breaks apply for any career-oriented course? I'm also somewhat surprised that you get a break of 8 years from paying income tax. Does that apply whatever the cost of your course, and whatever income you make? Sounds like a good deal if you can become a successful investment banke (for instance)r; little outgoings for qualifications, big income, no tax. Excellent!

Scroggs

BIG MISTER

24th Apr 2006, 10:38

WOW the Dutch do have a nice Pilot Friendly taxman dont they !

No chance of the UK doing that as we have to pay for Mrs Blairs £275 a day hairdressers bill......is it just me or did she still look £5 a day ?

Its a great shame that we dont get a little more help in the UK !

zomerkoning

24th Apr 2006, 20:14

Hey Scroggs,

We don't get a complete exemption for 8 years, just we are alloud to deduct the cost of training (tax term schooling) spread out over 8 years. I'm going to plan it so I don't have to pay income tax because I'm deducting the exact amount I'm earning = 0.

The type of schooling doesn't really matter from what I gather as long as you can prove that it is to further your carreer.

I deducted all my university costs from my income tax when I was studying. Saved me a couple of hundred pounds a year.