Air Eng Branch

[fantaman]

Hello All,

I'm just about to put my papers in for NCA after having served four and a half years as an FOA and reached the dizzy heights of Cpl.

Obviously under the new system we all have to join up as Weapon System Operators and then we are streamed to either Acoustics, Crewman or Linguists.

Now for the million dollar question! With the delay of the new Nimrod, the problems with the Herc J model and the delay of the new tanker will they open up the Air Eng trade again? The reason I ask is that this would be my first choice as NCA and if I knew they were going start the training course again soon I would think about holding off for a short while. I've tried asking the AFCO but they are about as useful as a chocolate fire guard!

Any help or advice would be appreciated!

[threepointonefour]

Afaik, Air Eng trg is closed tfn. It's now all generic WSOp (initially), where they get streamed half way through and then complete specialist trg before going to their ac type. That's today's situation.

[Arty]

Hello mate,

Not really sure what Herc J 'problems' you are referring to, but our only problem is that we don't have enough of the damn things!

Most Air Eng's at Lyn are kicking their heels now so it's unlikely that the trade will be opened up again.

Best of luck.

[The Gorilla]

I am afraid not, there's no chance of the Air Eng school reopeningand no need. Sad but life goes on! Concentrate on the other Wsop trades which will give you just as many opportunities as the Air Eng trade would have.

All best wishes.
TG

[Brain Potter]

Recently heard that the life extension to the E-3 and possibly the Nimrod (R?) may require some more Air Engs. The demise of the Nimrod AEW based trainer may mean that the "school" takes some other form. One idea mooted is theory followed by a full OCU twice (or more) !!

[cyclic]

What happened to the sim? It was one of the best bits of kit the RAF ever bought! I can't remember the names of the two civvie pilots who flew the sim - fond memories.....

[500days2do]

The previous posters are right i guess...if they require any 'eng' WsOPs they will just farm them out to the respective OCU's to train from scratch. In the short term standby for the dusting off of some crusty old f$rts who hide away doing nothing jobs waiting for pension day. Wouldn't want to be an empowered master with a happy bunch of boys who suddenly gain a 'waster ' to fill a seat.
'Sorry guys , no promotion again this year ...but we've gained this non-detachable money pit with dinosaur qualities to cherry pick the best jobs'..!!!
Do i sound bitter...nah..days 2 do..:} :} :}

[Sideshow Bob]

At the moment the trade has a large surplus, mostly sat at Lyneham. The school has been shut, as our Lords and Masters had decreed there is enough trained strength to see out the aircraft even with extensions to in-service dates. There is very little promotion in the branch, one or two a year, and even if there was to be more engineers trained, you would not get the choice as NCA trades are not applied for but allocated dependent on your ability.

[dessert_flyer]

As i understand it Engineers are just about on strength at the moment, and maybe even predicted to go slightly under in the next year or so, which is represented by the PVR lengths being given out. Where they are getting the extra from when the number of Engineers starts to dwindle im not sure. When they realise their is a shortage im not sure how long it will take to get an individual to start filling sqn posts, time will tell. If there are excess numbers sat at Lyneham field, when are they going to start placing them in positions where they are needed?
D-F

[fantaman]

Arty. I managed to organize a trip down to Lyneham to fly with the ALM’s and Air Eng guys on 24 squadron and one of them said that there were a few problems with the J’s. This was probably some inter-squadron rivalry between the K and J guys!

If there does suddenly become a shortfall, will they perhaps take other NCA already trained either as ALM's or AEOp's? It would make sense as it would cut down the time required to get these guys flying as Air Eng's? Then the Air Eng trade would definately be dead and burried for new guys like myself.

To be honest I don’t mind want branch of NCA I join, it all looks like a good laugh and the massive pay boost will certainly be welcome! Thanks for all the good gen and info tho!

[ratty1]

Air Eng guys on 24?

[fantaman]

Air Eng guys on 24?
Sorry, I meant 47 Squadron!

[cornishpixie]

Fantaman as every one has eluded to there is no more Air Eng abinitio training. NCA training is now a centralised common core skills course followed by streaming. The advice you have got is all sound advice. However, as you rightly pointed out alot of new "projects" have moved to the right, thus the demise of the Air Eng is not happening as quickly as predicted. There will be a requirement for the Air Eng for the near future. As it has already been pointed out promotion is virtually non existant as is the possibility for signing on. Knowing the trade as I do (I am one) I can forsee a manning shortage in the branch within the next two years unless our lords and masters make a decision on aircraft in-service dates. My advice to you is to avoid the trade as it is a dead trade, even though the E3 has now a requirement for Air Engs until 2035 with no glass cockpit mid life update planned. There is not an Air Eng in current service that has that long to do. On training I would push for your preferred choice and I can recommend Tac AT loadie. As for the J well all new aircraft have "issues". The J is over-comming these money permitting, and there in lies the rub. Cash will always be the RAFs stumbling block and the J upgrades are bloody expensive (like any modern aircraft) and as long as our lords and masters have got a fighter background then we will always end up putting money into Air Defence aircraft as opposed to Transport (C17 excluded) Good luck with your training mate NCA is the best move you will make Cornishpixie:ok:

[HeadSouth]

Our Lords and masters do not understand is that if they try to short term managing the CAREERS!! of Air Engineers as they are doing now, then many of them will find other jobs to go to, as they are starting to do now. Then how will they fill that centre seat? Get more Aussies, doubt it as most of them have already left the RAAF because of a similar situation??

HS

[Indicating Full]

I have been paying a little more attention recently to the manning stats flyer which is distributed monthly by Innsworth. For the last 6 months or more it has showed no change with an air eng requirement of of 175 against a balance 185. Is this really the case? Surely the stream of engineers reaching 55/22 must be starting to bite and bring us closer to manning balance.

[cornishpixie]

I have been paying a little more attention recently to the manning stats flyer which is distributed monthly by Innsworth. For the last 6 months or more it has showed no change with an air eng requirement of of 175 against a balance 185. Is this really the case? Surely the stream of engineers reaching 55/22 must be starting to bite and bring us closer to manning balance.

The answer is yes to this there are a number of guys who are crossing over or leaving etc. Of the 185 Engineers how many are in Eng posts. There are a number of commissioned Air Engs that have long spent time "polishing leather chairs" and with the empowerment of Masters are quite happy to send the NCA to the less pleasant postings. Why is Kinloss looking for Engs when they have just disbanded a sqn? As for the Aussies guess who are looking for Engs Ould, Stacey SGT: [email protected] they call it Lateral Transfer. The Aussies have offers of 3 yr min contracts and if you want to stay in they will re-train. As a side issue after the loss of 179 they fitted all their tanks with foam! Looking after those you already employ it will never catch on:( I do feel sorry for those who are reaching a critical point in their career especially as the Offer to Transfer decision date has not been deferred.

[The Gorilla]

Now that would be ironic and make me smile for a week if it's true!! Imagine the Aussies nicking a few Eng's and making the RAF have a manning crisis, that would be so sweet!!

:D

[cornishpixie]

Now that would be ironic and make me smile for a week if it's true!! Imagine the Aussies nicking a few Eng's and making the RAF have a manning crisis, that would be so sweet!!
:D

It is true Gorrilla I have applied and there are two others to my knowledge:}

[dessert_flyer]

The RAF wont have a manning crisis with Engineers, those of you who are left will just have to werk harder, thats just the way of it, Co-Pilots and Navigators are doing so on many fleets at the moment, if you think the powers that be are worried then you are sadly wrong, the tasking will remain the same you just wont get as many days off. Its just the way it is in todays modern RAF, getting the task done and doing it on a budget is the way ahead, and investing in people no longer exists,

[cornishpixie]

if you think the powers that be are worried

Or even care valid point dessert_flyer:sad:

[The Gorilla]

Cornishpixie et al

Then I wish you the most best of luck! I was fortunate to spend some time there on a couple of Ex Pitch Blacks. Splendid place and people. I recently looked into going over there in my new job but alas despite chronic shortages of those who do what I do now the Aus Government has yet to make it a sponsored occupation. And I am pushing the upper age limit now..

Please keep us informed as to your progress by PM if you so wish.

Best regards


TG

[cornishpixie]

Cornishpixie et al
Then I wish you the most best of luck! I was fortunate to spend some time there on a couple of Ex Pitch Blacks. Splendid place and people. I recently looked into going over there in my new job but alas despite chronic shortages of those who do what I do now the Aus Government has yet to make it a sponsored occupation. And I am pushing the upper age limit now..
Please keep us informed as to your progress by PM if you so wish.
Best regards
TG

Many thanks G I will :ok:

[A and C]

Fantaman It would seem that you have the wish to fly and NCA is a very good way to go about this, I have worked with guys who have been trained by this system and they are to a man first class operators but the big problem for them all is what do they do after they finish with the RAF or with the way this goverment is going the RAF finishes with them.

If the chance of NCA lands at your feet then take it because it will teach you what you can't learn from books, airmanship and practical aircraft operation.

The NCA training will set you up to take the next step to set you up for life after the RAF............ Flying for the airlines !The RAF has a number of first class flying flying clubs and you can take advantage of the very cheap rates to get a Private pilots licence and the 150 hours flying time that you would need to start the (F)ATPL course.

I would take a guess that you could put your self in the right hand seat of an airliner for about 25% less cost than a civilian and your military background will be of great help when it comes to looking for a job.

[fantaman]

Thanks to everyone for their advice! I've been rather fortunate as a JNCO in that as part of my preparations for going aircrew I've managed to do a bit flying and spend some time with the NCA on a few squadrons.

Sitting around with the crews and chewing the fat was great and I got lots of helpful tips. Just looking at the way they went around their daily grind was fantastic and I think if more junior ranks got the chance to see the other side of the fence more would apply for NCA.

I collected my gen app from P1 today so fingers crossed and cheers :ok:

[cornishpixie]

Fantaman Having already trodden your chosen route and despite all that has been discussed the only regret I have is that I did not go Aircrew earlier. Good luck fella see you around the bazaars soon CP

[fantaman]

Cheers CP, thanks for advice!

[windriver]

I don't now if i'm reading this post right, but if you want to be a pilot and the RAF can`t offer you a post then leave now! No matter how old you are time is not on your side.

After failing OATC and considering NCA I went from J/T (with PPL) to Civ Jet Cpt in 8 Years largely on the advice of a wise Gp Capt (Stn Cmdr) who suggested that the RAF were not the only people that fly aircraft for a living. "If you want to be a pilot, why become a flight engineer?" There wasn`t a lot of RAF aircrew recruiting going on at the time and I stood no chance, especially as the board correctly determined I had no desire or aptitude to fly fast jets.

If your goal is NCA irrespective of flavour ignore the above...

[fergineer]

Cornishpixie, whats the requirements for joining the aussies......especially the age limit.......the Kiwis are not looking for anyone at the moment so thats out for me here......last flew the Herc 10 years ago!!!!!!!
Cyclic, glad you were impressed with the sim.....it took many hours to get it right in Aylesbury and an awful lot of rate ones to make it worthwhile.....hope they find a good home for it, the pilots just loved the FD system that we had fitted in it!!!!!!

[Charlie Luncher]

Little dudes
If you are thinking of heading down under PM me for any help I can be. Transferred about 3 yrs ago and whilst I am not grumpy enough to be an engineer I work very closely with them. You know starting their tomatoes for them and mopping the floor after an accident with the bag, but more importantly waking them up so we can go to the next strip show:ok: .
Charlie Sends

[Kitsune]

Uuuum, I didn't know that Nippon Cargo employed any siggies......:}

[cornishpixie]

Cornishpixie, whats the requirements for joining the aussies......especially the age limit.......the Kiwis are not looking for anyone at the moment so thats out for me here......last flew the Herc 10 years ago!!!!!!!
Cyclic, glad you were impressed with the sim.....it took many hours to get it right in Aylesbury and an awful lot of rate ones to make it worthwhile.....hope they find a good home for it, the pilots just loved the FD system that we had fitted in it!!!!!!
Sorry fergineer im not sure but if you apply toe the e-mail add i left earlier im sure they can advise CP

[snakepit]

Fantaman,

Don't hold your breath too long but,

Guess what happened at Innsworth last week, 3* walked into PMA33c and asked: "These Air Engineers fellows", when do we stop training them?

Reasoning follows:
Tristar 2015
VC10 2014-5
C130k 2012-15
Nimrod R1 2035
E3D 2050

Guess what OC 55 Sqn has been asked?

As an ex air eng, my advice to you would be to go NCA ASAP, then ask for air eng as soon as you are well established in the basics phase of training.

Worst thing that can happen is that you end up in one of the other trades which are just as rewarding, whilst pocketing the extra dosh. Then when you get the chance re-train as air eng. It’s not even a re-branch once you’re in the system, as we are all one trade now.

you aint seen me right:)

[Ginger Beer]

Well wotd'ya know,
Fancy that, you stop training FEs, the new aircraft ISDs move to the right (that's never happened before !?!?) and you end up in a situation where you will be down in required numbers of FEs in the medium to long term. I just can't fathom it :p
So, lets start looking at some incentives for the boys then as a large majority of those I know have been researching their next "careers". Once the school closed we knew, that was that, and started to look else where. Until it closed it was just another maybe. The school had been closing for FE training since I joined :confused: And that was nearly a full career ago.
So, FRIs/ PAS/extensions past 55 yrs/bring back promotion (that'll never catch on), I know, lets give the boys reserved rights to promotion pay scales as there's no promotion slots :mad: :ok:
I give up,
I still have bruises from banging my head against the wall and before you all start with we'll put GEs through 2 OCUs, recruit more Ozzies, Open the school again but (the modular course was not been designed with FEs in mind) the backbone of training i.e. the sim is supposedly on its way to 51 as a procedures trainer ?
I give up:cool:
Ginge

[snakepit]

Ginger Beer,

Have a look at the cornishpixie's post. I don't think the Aussie's will be very happy letting us have any of their FE's this time, as they are now trying to recruit ours LOL .

Smug feelings of we told you so.

you aint seen me right :cool: .

[dessert_flyer]

If all that has been said in the past few posts is true, then there are going to be some gaps in the Air Eng cadre sooner rather than later. I know of at least 3 leaving my particular sqn in the next year, with at least the same number the year after. If this is just a snapshot of what is happening on every other sqn, then we are going to have some overworked eng's in the near future. Put that together with no promotion and very little pa spine, then morale is bound to increase. I do hope that the powers that be are not relying on Engineers to stay in out of duty and loyalty, as i know this will not happen. There are a lot of people out there who are a bit disenchanted with their lot at the moment and have the abilty/skills/motivation to move on if they feel they are being taken for granted.
D-F

[Dave Allen]

Fantaman,
it's true I'm afraid, the Air Eng door is now shut and from what I can tell from PMA is likely to remain so. However, if you are interested in the NCA route, PM me or give me a shout at Kinloss and I will sort out a visit for you.
Regards
DA

[The Gorilla]

Dave is right and it will always remain thus that Air Eng training is finished. Why? Because the decision to close the school was taken at a extremely high level and no one is going to ever admit that they made a mistake!

:}

[Kev Nurse]

Well, mistake or not, at the risk of expanding this discussion beyond Fantaman's question, I think we can be reasonably certain that eng training/recruitment will re-commence sometime in the future. Yes, the school is closed and the resources to produce an eng of the traditional style have probably gone forever. There were too many staff, and there would have been too many in the future, for the diminishing training requirement in the years ahead. However, we know that one aircraft type (E3) is already scheduled to remain in service long after the last student to graduate from Cranwell will reach Age 55 and give any achievable Continued Service. Furthermore, I doubt that there will be sufficient numbers of civilian flight engineers to meet the future recruitment need. The RAF will have to recruit engs from other military organisations or recommence type-specific training to an acceptable standard for the relevant aircraft. The concept of utilising OCU resources has been muted and needs close examination. It is achievable with the right personnel selected for the training. I would suggest that the RAF should draw from established volunteer NCA, with solid airmanship, with experience on the type in question. Clearly, there are some types and roles which are beyond the scope of this concept, but Nimrod and Herc K are worth considering.
Is this something we should be working on now? I believe it is.

[Sideshow Bob]

Hi Kev
How's sunny Kinloss, still beneath 6" of snow!! Hear you are short of Eng's again, any news on when you'll see your first MRA4 and a run down of eng's there?

[Kev Nurse]

Yep, we've had some snow lately, though today has been dry.
And yes, we are slightly below establishment at the moment. Hopefully the last few studes from Cranwell will restore the balance as this year progresses, and then its downhill all the way....
I don't involve myself in discussions about the MRA4. Mainly because I don't know enough about it and I'm not sure that I want to know. I certainly don't have any info about its progress that isn't already in the public domain. We haven't been told when the eng drawdown will commence. I'm guessing it will occur, as an insignificant side issue, when the first MR2 crew is disbanded. I've heard nothing about that yet. Whether or not the engs on the disbanded crews are posted south or moved elswehere on the unit will depend on our overall balance at that time.
Regards
Kev

[Kitsune]

Don't be too sure about a lack of civilian Flight Engineers available for slotting into the Dark Side Up North.......747 Classics etc. jobs are impossible to find and if its no job or the Nimrod you'd be surprised who pops out of the woodwork.........

I also understand that there are quite a few of the more progressive chaps at Rompers Green learning jockish or whatever the locals speak up there.....:}

[filthytabber]

As another Lyneham based monkey, I can confirm that I know of 3 here and at least one at BZN with big ideas about Oz. They are desparate for Engs as all theirs left to work in the oil industry in a plant in Sydney. As for the numbers game at Lyneham, there wont be a surplus here from the summer onwards with the number heading off and the tiny trickle of re-treads we have coming thru. Kipper Fleet will have to have some of those "chair polishers" rather than our guys. The man at Grope has already said those engs who are changing branch may yet be called back as well as the afore mentioned shiney bums. By the way Cornishpixie, is that you my bird?

Kitsune, any rumours about "progressive" Herc types taking Jock lessons are a myth, when the "invitation" to apply for one of the vacancies up there appeared here there was an instant vacumn as everyone ran off at once in search of the excuse book.