Insurance against "Hot Starting"???

[chester2005]

I may have the opportunity to do some hours building in a 206B3 in the near future .:)
This sounds like a good idea to me , but as a low hours pilot I am seen as a potential "Hot Start" risk.:ugh:
As with a lot of time builders , I am not in the position to be able to pay for a hot start out of my own pocket.
My training in starting the C20 in the 206 was very good and thorough and I have no concern of hot starting but nevertheless it has been mentioned.

I have been told that there is an insurance policy one can take out as a low hours pilot that will pay out in the event of hot starting the helicopter.

I have tried searching the archive and done a couple of WWW searches but to no avail .
Can anyone help please???

Is this available???
If so , how much is it?

Many thanks in advance Chester:ok: :ok:

[206 jock]

I think you've been slightly misinformed, but I can see why.

Talk to your school or the operator - if this machine i insured through Haywards (biggest in UK), it probably includes 'hot start cover', although it's a 'once only' insurance, ie once it has been claimed on, you can't claim again...ever...on the policy.

My 206 is covered - fortunately, never had to claim on it (where's that fingers crossed smilie??)

Hope that helps

[BlenderPilot]

If you were starting a 206L in which you have to modulate, and have direct control of what is going on and how toasty the engine gets, then you could worry about it, but on a 206B3 the engine start is really a matter of the Fuel Control, if it's got battery and its not too hot it will usually start fine, and you are just there to stop the thing from going a above the limitations. So really what you should do is just give yourself a number above you will not let the TOT go above and if it gets close to it just cut it and that's it.

Don't worry about it, you can easily teach a monkey to start a Jet Ranger without burning it, you being human will do just fine.:)

[Brilliant Stuff]

just make sure you put enough air through with a good battery you should get something like 15% if I am not mistaken it's been 7years and then you slowly crack open the throttle and of you go. I was always told the more air the better.

Enjoy flying th 206 it's a pulchritudinous.

[Skidkid]

Just watch the gauges carefully during the start sequence. I've not had a hot start in 26 years. It works for me.

[i4iq]

In case others were wondering!...

pul·chri·tu·di·nous; adj. Very pleasing or delightful to look at - Characterized by, or having great physical beauty and appeal.

[jon s gull]

I have several thousand hours in PT6 fixed wings, the manual for which gives a series of checks during start which will eliminate the risk of hot start. These include
Min Voltage
Min voltage under load
min ng before introducing fuel
max time before light
max ITT and time limit

Does the Bell manual not have similar info, if not why not.

[B Sousa]

First clue in a B206 Series( II,III) if your not familiar with the aircraft is to find out if it has Bendix or Seko .. Makes the difference between watching a normal start or a hundred foot flame out the ass.
Low Battery will also burn the tailboom, other than that its a piece of cake. (with your eyes on the Temp guage until start is complete)
But that wasnt your question.......I would suggest contacting the aircraft owner and have a sit down with him and maybe you can arrange something through his insurance company...........Your not going to like the price.

[rotorfan]

Bert said:
"Low Battery will also burn the tailboom, other than that its a piece of cake."

Now, I think I understand basic turbine operation, but have never flown one, certainly not studied starting techniques. I'm going to guess why a low battery can cause a hot-start, then Bert and all the other knowledgable types can barbeque my theory.
The starter/generator is DC powered, meaning the motor RPM is proportional to the battery voltage. So, low voltage=slow spinning compressor=insufficient airflow through engine. Does this result in not enough cooling air coming in to overcome the heat generated by the fuel burning? If it does overtemp, is it cooked beyond use, needing overhaul, or just inspected for damage?
OK, light your fires...:eek:

[Gas Producer]

i4iq,

Thanks, man. I'm glad someone explained that one.

Chester2005,

It seems to me you have made a foregone conclusion that a hot start is likely, and now you're sort of like racing to the shut the gate after the horse has bolted. Why should that be?

The key to the safe and efficient use of any machinery is knowing what's going on and how things work and why. It's no different with a turbine-powered helicopter.

When you really know what's going on behind and above you, your task will be decidely easier. Whether 'push, click & watch' like a 206BIII or modulated like so many other machines, if you know the what & why of the engine you will make correct choices based on your observation and interpretation of the conditions.

When I was endorsing guys and gals on the 206 we would spend a whole bunch of time discussing what goes on with the engine and WHY before we'd ever push a starter button. Made no sense to me to do things any other way.

If you're worried about having a hot start - don't be. Rather, be worried about not preventing one, and if you're worried about this then learn more about what's going on inside.

Rotorfan,

Don't worry, you're gettin' your head around it. No need for you to be BBQ'd! Yet.

In a nutshell, I think you can find a couple of issues with a crap battery. 1. It may not give you enough N1/compressor RPM prior to introducing fuel, so not enough airflow to abate the temp peak that may be experienced. 2. Even if required initial N1/compressor RPM attained, a weak battery may not be able to assist adequately with managing temp within limits during N1/compressor RPM acceleration to the point where temp control should be self sustaining.

To your last point: Yes. No. Maybe. Not sure. That's the point, isn't it? When we do stuff wrong procedurally, we're just not sure what might have gone wrong technically. It just becomes a lottery if you keep operating it - maybe it will fail, maybe it won't. So, you get an engineer to look at it before you do anything else. Period. Then you'll know for sure.

GP

[The Flying Mullet]

I don’t have any info on taking out insurance to pay for a hot start, best suggestion from B Sousa to sit down with the owner and sort out a cost is good, if you must.
A “hot start” in a turbine is a possibility, but not a given. As a few have posted the best way to safely start a turbine is know how that particular machine works, know the limitations, then watch the gauges on start up.
BlenderPilot suggestion "give yourself a number above you will not let the TOT go above and if it gets close to it just cut it and that's it". I use to use 860 if it got to that I shut it off, or if the temp was increasing faster than normal shut it down. The more you do it the more you get use to what is “normal”, for that particular machine. A turbine can start hot for many reasons, so giving yourself a safe limit to work with while you get use to it, is the best insurance.
You'll enjoy the 206!

Mullet. :ok:

[Wunper]

Chester
There was a very good thread on this a few months ago it covers all the points you need to aware of prevent this from happening.
My tip would also be to wear gloves so your sweaty right thumb can remain on the slippery starter button come what may!
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=154796&highlight=cracking
W

[Revolutionary]

Try timing your starts to get a feel for how fast a normal battery will get you through a complete start. Then you'll be able to tell when you have a weak battery and can abort the start before you even light off. If you do that and remember to always keep the starter going until you either have a good start or are back to square one, your chances of a hot start will be pretty slim. We've all had to learn and most of us mastered the trick without toasting an engine. You'll be fine, too.

[albatross]

Relax and have fun flying the 206 - the outos are going to amaze you!
You will also think at first that the darn thing will never decelerate on a normal landing approach - try to look cool as the spot zooms by at 30 knots!
Don't let the instructor’s fiendish laughing distract you.:E

More hot starts have been caused by pushing the start button with the throttle on the idle detent than anything else.
Always cycle the throttle immediately before start.
The 206 throttle has 3 basic positions:
Fully closed-------idle-------------------Full Open (FLY)
Immediately before starting - when you are strapped in Battery and boost pumps on, ready to start and before pushing the start button.
Roll the throttle to the idle stop (idle detent will snap out) roll the throttle to the full open position. Roll the throttle back to the idle detent- push the idle detent with your thumb then roll it to the fully closed position.
This will insure that you do not start with the throttle in the idle or full open position.
If the start button is pushed with the throttle anywhere but fully closed the Temp will peg so fast it will make your head spin. I have never heard of anyone “saving it" when this mistake was made.
Do not open the throttle if the N1 is not at 12% and rising with the igniter snapping merrily away.
There will be talk about "Start limits" they are there to allow for screw ups.
If the temp is rising quickly and gets near the normal ops red line that is the time to close the throttle! If you wait till it is heading north of the red line there is a good chance you are going to be too late. (Especially if it is moving fast)
Always be prepared to close the throttle
A properly adjusted fuel control should give a nice warm, quick start.
Fuel controls need to be adjusted if the operating environment has changed - warm to cold or low to high altitudes for example.
Badly adjusted fuel controls can also cause a hung start - the n1 will not rise above 40% for example. Trying to start on a cold day with Jet A can also cause a hung start on the first start of the day. How I miss Jet B!
Your instructor will, no doubt, explain all this in great detail. He will also have you practice opening / closing the throttle and activating the detent about 100 times, or so it will seem.
Ask the instructor or the engineer - very politely - to show you the overtemp limits and inspections in the 250 engine manual.
At the same time, if he has time and has overcome his flabbergast over a student asking a question instead of complaining about dirty windows ect. ect., ask to see the special inspections for over torque, over speed and hard landings for the 206.
I always made them a part of any a/c checkout.
Once again have fun!

[Buitenzorg]

Wunper said
your sweaty right thumb can remain on the slippery starter button
DON'T DO THIS!!!

Starting a 206 should be a "two hands, two fingers" affair. Left hand on the throttle, right index finger holding the idle release button down, right middle finger on the starter button. All you need to abort the start is roll the throttle shut.

albatross gives some really good tips, especially the one about always rolling the throttle fully open, back to idle and fully shut before every start.

Some other tips to detect a weak battery early on:
- listen to the clicking of the igniter: rapid, sharp clicking = good battery, slow, soft clicking = weak battery
- watch the fuel pressure gage as you depress the start button, the lower the pressure drops the weaker the battery is. It's been a few years since I flew the 206, but ISTR that if the fuel pressure remains above 2 psi or so the battery is OK.

Finally, you indicate you're building time. That's excellent, because in the circumstances you should never feel any pressure to fly or even start if you're not completely happy. Not too sure about the battery? get an APU. No APU? Tie it back up and come back another day. When you're flying for a living there'll be plenty of people eggeing you on to fly, enjoy the stress-free flying while you can!:ok:

[Wunper]

Buitenzorg is right my post should say "digit" that is what happens when you type with your thumbs! :cool:
As well as checking the throttle status before the start one other thing that is good to do is a dry run dummy abort without touching the starter button just so you are absolutely sure that if you decide to abort the start you are confident that you can do it crisply and decisively.
W

[albatross]

I agree that is a two hand operation.
If you are tall you may find it more comfortable to run your right arm UNDER your left leg and posiion your right fingers under the collective with you right thumb on the starter more of a tightening of grip than a push to activate the starter. Good positive control. No chance of that thumb slipping off.
I always used my left hand to move the throttle and my left thumb to activate the detent. With my pathetic co-ordination and being left handed to boot I prefered to only give one job to my spastic right hand.
You will discover what is best for you.
Your instructor will have some definite ideas on the subject. I, gladly, defer to him.
Have fun.