deicer hits plane [Archive]

coopervane

24th Feb 2006, 15:47

Why should the guy who did it automatically lose his job??
Accidents happen all the time and if aircrew got the sack everytime they cocked up, we would be really short on drivers!!!

Seriously, a policy like that only encourages anyone who accidently damages an aicraft in the course of their job to try and cover it up rather than come clean.

Each incident should be treated on its merits and staff should always be treated fairly. That way all accidents will be reported however small.

Coop & Bear

Kisser

24th Feb 2006, 16:45

i agree - i think its a shame he will lose his job, but thats what the despatcher said.

Mr Angry from Purley

24th Feb 2006, 18:12

Coopervane
Correct, but if it was a "mistake" then surely a no blame culture would stop a loader / deicer / Caterer trying to avoid detection with the possible fatal consequences of such a decision :\

Piltdown Man

24th Feb 2006, 18:29

I really do hope that mately boy with the loose foot doesn't loose his job. This is the arsesolic reaction from duckwits in HR when an expensive mistake has been made. It is vital that when employees make a mistake they own up to it. I for one want to hear that somebody has driven into my prop or whatever. Sacking people for being human makes it so that genuine errors are hidden and are only discovered later inside the smoking hole in the ground.

circlesquare

25th Feb 2006, 09:49

Excuse my ignorance here, but surely unless it can be proved that the individual concerned deliberately rammed into said plane, then i don't really see how he/she can be sacked on the spot. Part of being human is that mistakes and accidents will naturally occur from time to time. Surely the person concerned could appeal... unless his/her contract clearly states 'driving a de-icing rig into a q400 is considered gross misconduct and will result in employment termination'. Unlikely methinks. JW411 says 'such events are incredibly common in the rest of the world'... makes you wonder if this is particularly high demand for drivers if the actions of those in SOU is anything to go by!!

Northern Hero

25th Feb 2006, 11:26

The driver has been suspended on full pay whilst the investigation takes place. The investigation is normally held in conjunction with the customer, covering all aspects including vehicle maintenance (although the rig in question is apparently only months old), ramp contamination, driver training etc etc. A multitude of factors could have caused this incident.

captjns

25th Feb 2006, 13:36

That's why god invented insurance to cover any losses.

CaptAirProx

25th Feb 2006, 13:43

Thats odd, spoken to ground crew today and at least two independant people have said he is still on shift but keeping a sheepish profile. Poor sod. I think we maybe getting confused with having his airside driving licence removed until enquiry. But I maybe wrong!

Farmer 1

25th Feb 2006, 13:56

So far, not one negative post on this - very good to see. Let's hope the driver can draw some comfort from that.

JamesT73J

27th Feb 2006, 07:36

Is this the Q400 that is sitting next to the hangar at the Northern end? I saw it from the train yesterday and wondered why it was parked there.

Maude Charlee

27th Feb 2006, 09:34

One for the rubberneckers, wonder no more.........;)
http://photobucket.com/albums/c96/maudecharlee/?action=view&current=DSCN1277.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/c96/maudecharlee/?action=view&current=DSCN1275.jpg

A/c struck between aft service door and rear pressure bulkhead. Damage; 2 skin punctures, 3 frames and 7 stringers apparently.

Ouch! :eek:

Biggles Flies Undone

28th Feb 2006, 13:11

This might be a world-shattering event in Southampton but such events are incredibly common in the rest of the world.
So it might, but some of us look to R&N for news such as this. Each to their own, JW... :hmm:

tristar500

1st Mar 2006, 16:08

It may be a common thing - aircraft being damaged by ground equipement, but it shouldnt happen... Poor training and judgement play a very large part in this problem, mechanical making up the remainder. People really must be confident, aware and on the ball when working around aircraft no matter what their task is. Reporting any incident should be of the highest priority.

egbt

1st Mar 2006, 16:18

i think its a shame he will lose his job, but thats what the despatcher said.

methinks the despatcher should stick to despatching as he obviously knows little about employment law.

TotalBeginner

1st Mar 2006, 16:40

methinks the despatcher should stick to despatching as he obviously knows little about employment law

Absolutely!!

CaptAirProx

2nd Mar 2006, 01:12

So far - looking like 14ft length by 8ft height of re-skinning needed. Thats after four frames and many stringers. At least she is in the warm now being cared for!!!

fandango29

2nd Mar 2006, 15:00

Just to put all your minds at rest, the incident is under full investigation to determine the exact cause of the incident. The individual concerned is not going to be dismissed automatically. As someone rightly pointed out, this would promote a no reporting culture which must never happen. And lastly to the person who takes the word of dispatcher gossip. Come on.......you surly should know better!!!!

CaptAirProx

2nd Mar 2006, 16:01

The old girl gets to fly to exeter tomorrow! I think I will take my camera. And as a get well jesture, she will be getting a new engine at the same time too, someone is looking after her.

Kisser

2nd Mar 2006, 19:12

So it might, but some of us look to R&N for news such as this. Each to their own, JW... :hmm:

Thanks for the back-up Biggles, Sarcasm lowest form of wit JW :p

Rusty443

3rd Mar 2006, 06:20

People please note:

The Accident in question is under investigation that is still on going.

The Driver has not been dismissed he has had his license removed and is still on shift.

The aircraft had a temporary repair to fly back to Exeter.

Any accident is bad and normally avoidable but we in the aviation business should respect;

"THERE ARE THOSE WHO HAVE DONE IT, AND THOSE WHO ARE YET TO DO IT!
:{

Snigs

3rd Mar 2006, 06:28

Anyone know what the reg the a/c is, just so I know the history the next time I fly it?

CaptAirProx

3rd Mar 2006, 09:23

Rusty,

I quite agree, in fact spoke to the lad in question last nite to make sure he is alright. I can proudly say that despite what happened, on the day, one of my concerns was that the driver of the truck was ok. I think my closing gambit was "Not to worry, accidents happen, thats why we and Aviance are insured, at least nobody is injured"

And the aircraft should fly circa 13.00 today.

Wycombe

3rd Mar 2006, 11:11

Snigs, it's JEDO apparently

Perrin

3rd Mar 2006, 11:33

As you may have never worked or been around a very busy airport with approx 25 overnighters and thru flights it will be easy for you to say training and not beening tired at 0330 after beening called in to do a extra shift as a flu bug has hit the line station is no excuse for not being on the ball every minute for 40 some years around A/C? give the guy a break huh!!!!!!

HZ123

3rd Mar 2006, 12:10

Perrin; A valid point but SOU on a busy night hardly ticks all those boxes. Accidents happen, lack of training, complacency and a could not care attitude are often at the root of these happenings.

niknak

3rd Mar 2006, 12:40

Perrin; A valid point but SOU on a busy night hardly ticks all those boxes. Accidents happen, lack of training, complacency and a could not care attitude are often at the root of these happenings.

HZ: I note that you are a ground operations trainer at LHR.
Please explain your pompous presumption that anyone who doesnt work at one of the UKs major airports is totally incompetent, not trained properly and doesn't give a toss.
I was involved in ground ops in an earlier life at several different airports - big & small - and what I have experienced is the pressure to get five different jobs done at the same time, but very rarely have I come across complacency or incompetence.

As you say, accidents happen despite any amount of training, and I would have thought that if you are the proffessional you would like to think that you and others think you are, you would take a more constructive approach.

FougaMagister

3rd Mar 2006, 13:14

"De-icer hits plane"... obviously front-page news! Reminds me of "Dog bites man"... :hmm:

HZ123

3rd Mar 2006, 14:16

I concede NikNak as you say 'a long time ago'. In many of the handling companies today, indeed five tasks are the norm hence many of them do not get done properly, under pressure and result in accidents. Thats what we have insuarance for. You are correct I can comment and I see daily the unsatisfactory handling companies and their staff that are out there. Human nature plays a large part as we all cut corners adding to the problems. SOU staff please do not take offence but perhaps if one of them sees this they can comment on the expertise and training of Aviance, or whatever name they go by this week?

Biggles Flies Undone

3rd Mar 2006, 14:37

"De-icer hits plane"... obviously front-page news! Reminds me of "Dog bites man"...
How about you widen your perspective a bit, FougaMagister?

Lots of people with a genuine interest in aviation-related news read this forum and to some of us information like this is very useful.

Snigs - good to see you back amongst the Sky Gods! Glad you won that duel we had ;)

DarkStar

3rd Mar 2006, 15:10

Do certain airports have a better record than others? Given HZ123 profile I would suggest he would know better than most. In general, everyone is under greater pressure with tighter t/rounds and schedules to meet.

Few Cloudy

3rd Mar 2006, 15:16

When do you need de-icing? When it is snowy.

When do feet slip on pedals? When it is snowy.

Hmm. Maybe it is time to have a look at footwear
issued and pedal surface - for starters.

FC.

Rusty443

3rd Mar 2006, 15:24

Aviance have a training procedure based on the AEA Regulations edition 20.
It is always easy to blame training, experience or lack of was a factor and people who do not listen is another.
Yes SOU is a small airport but we still have to work to Company procedure/s as LHR/ LGW / LBA / STN etc.
Bigger airports do think of us as a ploughed field!
Ignorance is bliss!!
The aircraft in question was a Q400 G-JEDO and the vehicle was not a van? It was a FMC TEMPEST.

FougaMagister

3rd Mar 2006, 15:34

Biggles - ramp damage is a near-daily occurence at most UK/European major airports. Whatever the reasons (usually down to poor training and/or rushed procedures due to short turnaround times) I insist it's hardly worth mentioning - a bit like a national newspaper mentioning a car "ding" where the only damage was to the bodywork... big deal!

:cool:

niknak

3rd Mar 2006, 16:10

Thanks to HZ,
as you say, pressure upon staff plays a big part, no doubt that this is the case here.
Good of you to respond in a professional and personal context.

Rgds,
Niknak.

whattimedoweland

3rd Mar 2006, 18:02

God we all make mistakes,I could have been sacked years ago!!.I don't believe one person can be sacked unless they have a history of mistakes.

WTDWL.

Rusty443

3rd Mar 2006, 19:10

HZ123 STATED;SOU staff please do not take offence but perhaps if one of them sees this they can comment on the expertise and training of Aviance, or whatever name they go by this week?
Sou has had very few accidents with ramp services in twelve years of my presence this is the most serious with no injuries.
We are not perfect and are moving forward improving our standards daily, but complacency, lack of training and a no care attitude are not an issue at this station.
As for name changes if you have been in the industry that long you should know the answer? (not a very nice comment)
At the end of the day we learn by our mistakes and safety is our priority.
The investigation has only just been completed and more questions may be asked to solve this unfortunate incident, to stop it happening again here at SOU or elsewhere.
The driver is still working but not driving, and until the enquiry has finished every thing from here is just speculation.

JW411

4th Mar 2006, 17:27

There seems to be an awful lot of people out there who seem to think that it is unusual for an aircraft to be attacked by a piece of ground equipment. I have to tell you that this is far from the case. Sadly it is usually only the truly catastrophic events that reach the headlines. In my company hardly a week goes past without at least one event occuring at one of the nearly 70 airports that we serve.

To get the situation into perspective let me tell you a story. I recently taxied on to stand. One of the ground staff came on to the flight deck and asked me to come and look at a dent that she had spotted as we taxied in. I went to look. It was not a new dent nor was it particularly big but it was great that the young lady had spotted it and had brought it to my attention.

I showed her the "dent and buckle" charts and lists in the aircraft tech log and there, sure enough, was the dent that she had spotted. She was a bit surprised to note that this section of the tech log was 5 pages long.

I do not even want to get into whether this sort of ground-handling rash is caused by lack of training, dubious ground equipment or sheer incompetence but let me just reiterate what I said at the beginning, such damage is sadly incredibly common.

PS. The most bizarre incident that I remember was going out to Stand 22 at Gatwick in the crew bus when I was flying DC-10s for Fred. There was a Dan Air 727 on the next stand and the the No.2 (centre) engine was lying on the ramp! A catering truck had hit it from behind and had fractured the engine mounts. I would not have believed it to be possible but there it was for all to see!

Rusty443

4th Mar 2006, 19:54

Thank you for the information JW411.:8
I did say aviance is moving forward and I think it is on the 7th - 13th March 06 there is our annual safety week that each station will produce information displays and competitions around all 17 stations.
Any information from any airlines, crews, engineers or other handling companies is appreciated and helps promote the safety factors.
Last year an airline came and gave us a presentation that we feel is valuable as it promotes enthusiasm and education hopefully to reduce pages in your tech log.
All you need to do if interested is contact aviance Health & Safety at first point LGW or any Trainer or Station manager at any other station UK.

CaptAirProx

4th Mar 2006, 20:13

JW411 I think your last post, in the grand scheme of things, is quite correct. However, this incident does have a certain extreme to it. I can tell you that the aircraft was full of pax, just boarded, PA made to apologise for the delay blah blah blah, and quite frankly, one hell of a jolt was felt throughout the cabin. One cabin crew was nearly knocked over, and serveral pax were quite alarmed and made comment. Agreed perhaps on a laden L1011(your fav and mine!) you may not get the same effect, but a nearly 30tonne Dash got quite a bash. From the point of view of the crew a bad day had just got very worse! From the pax point of view it was shocking, inconvenient and unbelievable. From the de-ice drivers point of view - very unfortunate and untimely (just qualified), from an eyewitness point of view, quite a lot of damage done. It so could have been a lot worse a couple of feet further aft, with pressure bulkheads etc. But this was a truck, as I understand, driving flat onto the side of the aircraft.

I agree most aircraft are a patchwork of re-skinned holes. Let me tell you, this isn't a re-skin of a hole, thats just the temporary repair to fly home, but a complete change of two fuselage skins, four frames and many stringers. And for the nervous of you, it will probably be a sound repair by far.

So yes you have a point, but of greater note, it's great to hear mostly positive support for the unfortunate in this incident. If you had been there, you would understand my sentiment.

Flip Flop Flyer

16th Mar 2006, 14:14

Many years ago, working as a ramp rat, I had the misfortune of driving a tractor into a 727. Entirely my fault, owing to inexperience and lack of awareness. There was only a scratch to be seen on the fuselage, but not being a mechanic I didn't feel like making any judgement on whether or not it was something to be concerned about. It was not a very nice experience having to go up to see the old man in the LHS and tell him I'd banged his aircraft. It was just as unpleasent having to go see my boss and tell him the same story. Got a stern telling off, and was then congratulated for reporting the incident. Was told that I would never be fired if I duly reported any and all damage, unless of course I made it a habit of driving machinery into aeroplanes. Was also told that failure to report any incidents would see me out the door in great haste.

These days I earn my keep as a trainer, and am passing the same lessons on. Never, ever, under any circumstance fail to report a damage. If you see an "old" damage, contact engineering or the skipper. Don't ever assume anything. If you bump into the aircraft, well, shyte happens. I'll love you a little less than I do now, and you may safely expect some minor verbal abuse if you've been an idiot, but that's where it stops. Having a blame-free culture is paramount in ensuring a safe operation.