Passengers using handheld GPS receivers

[Shamrock 602]

Is Aer Lingus the only airline which allows passengers to use a GPS receiver during the flight?
I was surprised to see that they are specifically listed in their in-flight magazine as being permitted during the cruise (but not during take off, initial climb, descent or landing). It is there in black and white - I always check, in case it has changed.
As a passenger, it does make the fllight a lot more interesting. I do expect to be asked to "turn off your mobile phone", though.
Shamrock 602

[Capetonian]

On a flight the other day my son asked me what would happen if we switched on the small TomTom satnav device that we use in the car.
I suppose it would work as normal but I didn't feel it was right to switch it on in flight without asking a member of the CC and to be honest I would have felt a bit stupid doing so (and I thought they would have said 'no' to be on the safe side).
I know these devices don't emit any signal so technically there is no risk of interference with avionics, but does anyone know if there is any ruling on this or what the implications are?

[BOAC]

Check http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=146635 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=146635)
and http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100748
and http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45934
and http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=45629
and http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=43902

also for a suitably confusing set of answers:)

[Capetonian]

Thanks for that fast response. The general consensus seems to be 'yes ... but' rather than 'no ....' but I guess as pax it is safest to ask CC. It's just that I'd feel a bit of an anorak doing so, but having a 12 year old son is a great excuse for playing with my new toy in flight!

[gingernut]

They only work if you hold them up to the window:)

[Capetonian]

They only work if you hold them up to the window

That is what I would expect, but oddly, mine works in my house (and I do have a roof!)

[seacue]

I rather doubt that you have a solid aluminium roof.

[Blues&twos]

On a similar but slightly different note - what directions would an in-car satnav give if you flew out over the sea?? I was thinking of trying it next time I go up in a friend's light aircraft....

"In thirty miles, go down" possibly?

[D'vay]

God knows what you intend to do to your friend thirty miles down route
Fnar Fnar
D'vay

[Blues&twos]

How did I not spot that?

How? How?

[Capetonian]

I rather doubt that you have a solid aluminium roof.
Those of you who fly into CPT will have seen the 'informal settlements' under the approach path. They have corrugated iron roofs. How do you know I am not resident in one of those?
Seriously, I thought that the GPS had to have a more or less clear 'line of sight' to the sky. I was surprised to find it works indoors and also in the car even if it not against a window. (I can now use it to navigate in my drunken stupors from front door to bedroom without crashing into obstacles in the hallway and waking up HAH !)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

My wife and I recently had the pleasure of a flight in a Catalina in New Zealand. We popped our GPS beside a window and, as a result, have our route displayed on a map on our PC.

I know, I know... . it wasn't a "regular" passenger flight!!

[BOAC]

Having read this, I shall test my TomTom910 on my next flight - if it is a 'Classic', Rb, my Navman needs to be held up against window L3 to get a signal ( I guess the 'mesh' in the others stops it). On the NG I have so far failed to get a signal.

[llondel]

There are restrictions on the capabilities of consumer GPS receivers, otherwise they're considered to be munitions. I think it's something like not working above 60000ft (so not a problem for most of us) and there's also a speed limit on them, which I vaguely remember as 200mph but that seems a bit slow and I might be getting it confused with the GSM phone limit (which is a technology limit, not a legal one). It's obviously to stop the bad guys from fitting them to guided missiles and rockets. Also, most of them ignore satellites below about 5 degrees elevation which will rule out some that are visible from five miles up.

You need to know how the satellite constellation is aligned to get best results - in the UK a south-facing window is generally best because the satellites spend most of their time south of our latitudes, obviously not so true elsewhere. If you can get a fix in the terminal before taking off then your satellite search window is much narrowed and you stand a chance of finding some of them quickly. You'll need quite a few satellites in view to get a decent 3D fix, otherwise you'll confuse it because for a 2D fix it'll assume you're at ground level and so will be a bit inaccurate at flight levels. However, once in the clear then anything above the horizon will be line-of-sight, subject to aircraft metalwork.

OK, it's only a problem on Concorde, speed limit appears to be about 1000mph.

[Iolar]

Spanair allows the use of GPS in the cruise. I tried a handheld Garmin about 2 years ago on a Spanair flight, had to hold it right up to the window but was surprised to see that it could indicate the altitude quite accurately.

[homer09001]

ooo the joy of using car satnav's how painfull that would be on an aircraft
TURN LEFT
PERFORM A U TURN
TURN RIGHT AHEAD
U TURN
U TURN
U TURN
U TURN

SHUT UP!!!!

[Intruder]

My Garmin eTrex (general purpose, not just for cars) works fine in the 3L window of the 747 Classic. I have uploaded route waypoints for some of my frequent Pacific routes, and it navigates very well. I can also check how far off the INSs are.

[Bushfiva]

I have some great tracks on my ancient Garmin eMap between Asia and Europe. It works way better than one would expect.

[Shamrock 602]

Since my original posting which started off this particular thread ages ago, I've used a bottom-of-the range handheld GPS as a passenger quite a bit. It's always worked nicely, even if it takes a while for the thing to work out what's happening to it. I've used it on A320s, 737-800s, 757s (Dublin-Keflavik), and MD81/82s. And also the fibreglass K-21 glider, although that's for checking the track log afterwards - busy with the business of (learning to) fly while in that craft!


As SLF, I always double-check with the cabin crew as we board, mainly to put them at their ease in case they think I'm using a mobile phone during the flight. The answer is nearly always yes - sometimes after checking with the flight crew. I'm surprised they never seem phased by the request - like the professionals they are.


Obviously, you need to position it at the window, and sometimes it's a bit tricky to get a signal. The GPS should show the location overhead and elevation of the satellites it expects to see. That can be a help in trying to work out where to position it to receive the required three satellites for a fix (or four, if you want altitude as well).


It's taught me some things I didn't know - like how frequently direct routings are given, and how long they can be. Flying between Ireland and Scandinavia, for example, generally involves some pretty long "directs" over the North Sea - more than 200 nm in one case. (News to SLF - not to others here, I realise).


As far as speed restrictions are concerned, it's clocked close to 500 kts groundspeed, so that's not a problem. It crosschecks nicely with info from the flight deck, including altitude.


But not always. Last month, on a LH Airbus en route DUB-FRA, we were told we had "just passed Birmingham". This was way off the route, and didn't match the compass readings which were within about 10 degrees of East since brake release on runway 10. Turned on the GPS again, and found we had just passed Manchester, and not Birmingham. Similar, but different, I guess.


It all may seem a bit sad, but I reckon it's harmless and very educational - I still have much to learn about flying and navigation.


Shamrock

[tow1709]

Hi Sham
I have always found BA very good about hand held GPS rx. Like you, I always ask the CC when boarding if they will ask the Capt, and have never had a problem.
I have a Garmin III and find it works fine just sitting on the table in front of me when in a window seat, I don't even have to hold it up to the window - I have not tried in an aisle seat. If I sit on the aisle, it is because I am more interested in the drinks trolley on that particular flight.
I always try and be discreet, not because I think I will be thought a terrorist, but I don't want to appear a GPS geek, although I am really!

[marlowe]

All you guys that want to get out GPS systems and stick Antenna to the windows with suction cups and trail wires all over your seats have you ever stopped and wondered what it looks like to other pax? In these days of heightened security where you cant even take a tube of toothpaste onboard ,they see a person doing this what are they to think? There first thought is not " look at that sad Anorak" but whats he up to? Why do you need to know where you are? As long as i know i am at least in club or higher and that the good looking hostie is only a yard or two away with my drink and that the entertainment button is at hand thats the only position i am concerned with!!!!!!!

[ThreadBaron]

Of to Orstrilya next year, hopefully with SQ. I'll be taking my handheld to find our seats in the A380!:}

[enicalyth]

Threado!

How nice to spot you in print. Just browsing. I have a magellan bought about seven years ago and it reads nicely thanks. Clipping along in the old Boynngg before I retd I was always amazed to see how positionally accurate and speed accurate it was in relatively poor signal conditions. Vertical dimension good enough to figure out which Flight Level and give food for thought in the hotel. Mine is just a basic hiker version but when I was private flying (Piper not Cessna) it'd be in my bag or velcro'd somewhere safe and useful. The more I checked it out the more confident I became that it could be helpful one day. KO Sally my other half has a later model backpacker's Garmin with virtually identical performance. On a different note I'm never surprised to find technology in unusual places. For example there was radar in Fairey Swordfish. Not to mention ashtrays in the cockpit once and I have a Boyyngg pilot's jacknife complete with bottle opener and corkscrew!

Best Rgds

The "E"

[ThreadBaron]

Eni

Watcha, maaaaaaaaaate! Eyes open for details of the next E-bash.:ok: