Orlando Flight Training

[PAXboy]

This is cut down from the London Times of 5th Sept 2001. Full story at:

The Times (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2001311376,00.html)

AIRLINE seats are so tightly packed together that passengers cannot adopt the “brace” position in an emergency and may take
too long to escape from a burning plane, according to a study commissioned by air safety regulators.

The minimum distance between seat rows, known as the seat pitch, must be increased by at least 3in, the report recommends. However, an extra 10in may be needed to accommodate taller people safely.

The report, which has been obtained by The Times, is being considered by Britain’s Civil Aviation Authority. If the
recommendations are adopted, airlines will have to strip out up to 100 seats from each plane. UK airlines say fares would rise by a third.

Charter and budget airlines would be most affected because their seat size is close to the current minimum, which the report finds is unsafe. One charter airline has estimated that it would cost £50 million a year to comply with the recommended new sizes.

“Most carriers have found few passengers are willing to pay more for extra legroom,” a spokesman for the British Air Transport Association, which represents airlines, said.

The report calls for a series of evacuation tests to be carried out to establish how many extra seconds it takes to escape when the seats are tightly packed. The report also recommends further research into the risks of developing deep vein thrombosis from sitting in cramped conditions.
<CUT>
The seat width, which is unregulated, was also too narrow on many planes, with “larger passengers having great difficulty in getting in and out of their seats”. It was also impossible, when seated, to avoid “body contact” with people in neighbouring seats.
<CUT>
The researchers, from Nottingham University Medical School, Loughborough University and the ICE ergonomics consultancy, criticise the current regulations for failing to take into account the 1in-2in of space lost when the person in front reclines his seat. The study recommends that the minimum be measured when the seat is reclined and be increased from 26in to 28.2in, meaning the gap would have to grow by at least 3.2in.

However, the report says it may be necessary to increase the seat pitch to 35in to allow for the “optimum safe brace position”.

The seat pitch on some charter airlines can be as little as 27in. Budget airlines tend to offer 29in. The study recommended a minimum seat width of 19.6in, 4in more than currently offered by some budget airlines. To comply, they may have to remove a whole line of seats running the length of the plane.
<CUT>
The CAA said that the report was being considered by the Joint Aviation Authorities, the European-wide safety regulator, which would decide whether to impose the recommendations.

[Crash Barrier]

Considering that you moan and bellyache all the time on the 'Cabin Crew' forum about the cost of the airfare to the Isle Of Man, I guess this would mean the end of your air travel as a pax.
You could always take up 'spotting' instead!
BTW my cars a bit cramped, maybe I'll sue the balls off F*rd (have to be careful) for DVT.

[PAXboy]

Oh dear! I grumble about paying one of the highest airfares in Europe and then you do not wish to consider anything else that I mention?

I shall not bother other readers with the number of times I pay a fare that I consider reasonable and that includes paying for 'C' on my own account.

The point of posting this item is to sit back and watch the response in the main media (I expect low) and the reaction of the airlines/CAA.

[Crash Barrier]

Then again why not log onto 'airdisaster.com'
Look at the video footage of some real crashes, and decide yourself whether or not an extra 3-4 inches legroom would have helped you walk away from that firey mass of moult and metal.

[Red Snake]

Having just returned from SFO to LHR in United Airlines' economy section, I can honestly say the ammount of space (or lack of it) is appalling. There's no room with the seat in front in the vertical position; when it's reclined it causes physical pain.

It'll probably take a lawsuit to change it though.

[Roadtrip]

I think the Europeans and Brits should nationalize their aviation industries, lower fares, and increase the seat pitch to reasonable levels.

[Desk Driver]

Crash Barrier I suggest you sit in any UK Charter Aircraft for 5 hours and try to atempt the brace position. Unless your in extra legroom seats or your a 3' midget. You won't be able to do it. Not every emergancy where the brace is adopted results in total fatality. I would be more worried about getting past the guy that gets wedged between the seats while the acrft's on fire, than if I'm gonna sue the airline. All pax should assume some risk when travelling and should not be allowed to sue, in return the airline should ensure that pax has the best possible chance of surviving an incident.

[The Guvnor]

You can't have it both ways, you know - lower fares and more legroom! :D :D :D

However, if the charter boys have to increase their pitch by 10 inches and widen the seats sufficiently that a seat per row is lost, that will mean that for Mr & Mrs Shellsuit there will be precious few fortnight breaks in Ibiza for £149. That in turn will mean that there will have to be a serious and significant rationalisation of the UK charter market - meaning lots of redundancies.

However, that said, the Germans are perfectly happy to pay higher fares for more comfort and hopefully it will result in a better class of pax - reducing incidences of 'air rage'.

[PAXboy]

CB, because I KNOW that personal survival in a crash is largely due to luck. I do what I can to improve the luck that I am given (familiarity with the a/c I am in; counting rows and so forth).

The point of posting this was that it is 'news' and may generate some discussion in the public. I doubt it.

We all know that what has been found has been common knowledge for those who take an interest, or participate, in the airline business.

Of course Road Trip has probably found the answer ;)

[PAXboy]

Guv, could not agree more. If your comment re legroom/price was aimed at me, please do not be misled by others. I am always willing pay the rate for the journey and the space. My issue is with profiteering but that is the delight of having a monopoly on a route!

[Huck]

It was, I believe, Satan who decreed that all coach seats be the same. Why not make all clothing the same size as well!

The only rational solution is to classify pax by height. Have two or three zones - one meeting the current standard, and the others bigger.

I am 6'-3 and 235 lb. And yes, the 12 hours SFO-ICN on United did make me want to sue someone. Must be my dang american DNA....

[Covenant]

Crash Barrier

What exactly is "moult", as in "moult and metal"? Is it the stuff you get when you brush your long-haired cat? :D :D

[Pax-man]

Over the last couple of years I've been lucky enough to be a regular SLF, and I for one would pay more for comfort, but only to a point (i.e. I can't afford business class!). An extra £50 on long-haul I would gladly part with.

The difference in pitch on the different 'classes' of airline is very noticeable. For example, I've been very comfortable in economy with CX and DL, yet recent trans-atlantic flights with AIH and BY were, quite frankly, horrendous. Like being in cattle trucks.

For most passengers on these charter flights, however, it's probably their one trip into the air per year, and they'll happily suffer discomfort in order to save a few quid. These flights are always full, and that speaks for itself. Noticed a lot doing exercises, though...

Must credit both Easyjet and Ryanair while I'm here, as I've always found them both comfortable (albeit on short-haul).

Heading back to the original post, I wouldn't imagine that increases in pitch and seat size would make a huge difference in a 300+ mph crash. Runway incidents / fires, yes.

But as already metioned in this thread, we as pax have to accept to a degree that business is business and 100% safety can never be provided due to economic constraints. I, for one, have faith when I board, but a bit of extra legroom never goes amiss!

[sky9]

The only way to get more seat pitch is tne UK market is to legislate. I suffered a dreadfull flight home in a spotty M airbus with my knees hard up against the seat in front and my bum wedged in the seat back. The quicker a minimum 31/32 inch seatpitch comes in the better.

The seat width comments are equally valid.

[Squawk 8888]

You can't be serious, Roadtrip. State-run companies are a recipe for disaster in any industry- here in Canada the most dangerous form of transport is the state-run rail service, and AC had its share of horror stories before it was privatized. Oh, and let's not forget what a wonderful record Aeroflot had!

[Mr Benn]

Everyone would like more legroom. No one wants to pay the extra money. Most (if not all) UK charter airlines now offer some sort of premium class, for which you get a much bigger seat as well as some other frills. It does cost money though. On short haul around £50-60 return. On long haul quite a bit more. Some pay, some just buy the cheap seats then whinge.
If you are large then you have a choice. You buy yourself two seats or you pay extra for a seat with more room.
If you find economy uncomfortable then buy a Business Class seat. If you can't afford a business class seat and find you can't fit in an economy seat then don't fly. No-one is forced to go on an aircraft.
Economy class is a chance for those who don't mind putting up with a bit of discomfort the opportunity to go to places they otherwise could not afford to visit.
Just look back in time. Flying used to be a luxury, with individual service and a "luxury" cabin. And few could afford it. So economy class and the charter airlines came in.
Perhaps airlines should advertise that a standard seat is available at "x" price, but if you want a smaller seat its half the price. Guess which cabin will be full?

[brockenspectre]

As a former skinny but now large person part of me has to agree with Mr Benn's rather acerbic comment...if you don't fit don't fly!

Why do I agree with him? well because everyone in an emergency should be able to "get around" an aircraft and very large people not only can't manage themselves but might block others.

I am a tall female and in the past couple of years have put on weight, as it happens, and the reasons are purely personal/medical and not to be shared in this forum. When I was skinny I was comfortable in any old airline seat. When I last flew to FL to visit friends in a BA 777 I had to request an aisle seat so that I had a chance to get myself out of the seat to visit the loos and generally give my legs a chance to move! To get in and out of the seat (with the one in front of me reclined) I had to clamber over the arm. I am still (relatively speaking) a young and mobile individual but anyone other would have been stuck. In an emergency those inboard of me (had I been immobile) would have been in trouble!

Most clothes manufacturers realise that the "standard" size is no longer a standard - I think airlines do have to acknowlege that a Brit 10/US 8 is no longer standard and to create cabins/seating more tailored to reality. If they wish to continue hiring tiny cabin crew that is fine but just recognise that pax sizes are different in 2001.

This does not mean I don't agree with Mr Benn - in fact in another forum I had the outrageous idea that a passenger should be weighed with checked bags and carry-on bags and there should be one UNIT of weight allocated per seat that can be distributed how SLF prefers. The fatter/heavier passenger would just have to pack less or take fewer gifts or just pay the diff!!

:D

[TJ13]

Hi all, don't know if you only are interested in UK carriers or not, but if you want some nice leg room fly American.
I didn't pay any more for my ticket than the going price on other airlines at that time.
I had not flown them in many years and it was a nice surprise. The extra room really made a difference. I am tall and was with a toddler and it really helped make the trip more comfortable.
I hear there are one or two more US carriers that are now doing the same.
Hope this helps for anyone that really wants that extra space. :)

[Roadtrip]

Hey how about a A380 config'd for the hadj? Anybody for a cheap ticket to Saudi Arabia.

Squawk 888 - Tongue was firmly in cheek with that crack about nationalizing airlines. Although, if you guys would like to do that up north, I'm sure some US airlines could fill the gap when AC grinds to a halt under government management. Be glad to send you some of our very effective bureaucrats from the Dept of Transportation and the FAA to help out. You can even keep them . . . please.

[Pax-man]

Mr Benn,

TVs and cars also used to be a luxury, so let's have a reality check. As times move on, so do people's expectations. And so should the service provided.

I count myself very fortunate to be able to see the world and fly a great deal in the process. But the last two long-haul charter flights I've been on (AIH & BY, as mentioned previously) simply took the p**s. It was worse than sitting in the back of a mini. I've flown on many such a flight before, but the space provided is decreasing by the year.

There's no doubt that such charter airlines are doing what they can to further profits, i.e. maximising the amount of seating in the cabin. People may not complain en-masse, but does that make it right??

Perish the thought, but if an aircraft configured with minimum pitch seating should ever have a major runway incident, then God help those on board.

It's correct that such 'budget' flying gets many people to places they might not otherwise go. Without wishing to sound condescending to such pax, ignorance is bliss. That is, until it backfires.

In ten years time, the goalposts will have moved considerably. And those airlines that do not adapt will suffer. Those pax who may be ignorant now will soon demand more. The more they travel, the more they will learn, and the more they will expect.

More airlines should follow the 'American' example. Why did they increase pitch? Because US citizens use air travel more, and are more 'sussed' as a result.

It's the reality of the modern world that the £/$ sign rules. People may be ignorant, but they are not stupid. Someone should give pax a better deal, and then they will see that the punters WILL pay for it.

Let's see the end of airborne 'charabangs'!

[capt cynical]

If my fading memory serves me right.all the original 747 100's & 200's were configured 9 abreast in economy.
Now that WAS civilised. ;)

[shady]

Huck, who ate all the pies on you're flight then :~)

[Squawk 8888]

TJ, that American thing is a classic example of markets doing the job. It was a huge promotion started when the industry began to slump last year- they even held a contest to give away the seats they took out. Wouldn't that be a cool conversation piece for the living room? :D The discounters will always have veal-stall pitch but I think market pressure will make the majors open up a bit.

[ExSimGuy]

Had quite a pleasant trip LGW-PHL on USAir 2 weeks ago in economy. 6 feet tall (and 13 stone - 85kg) I fit reasonably well into most carriers a/c in "scheduled" config. (US, BA, SV, GF)

The only problem I have found is when somebody is seated next to me who is "very generously proportioned" and too inconsiderate to try to compensate - had a very uncomfortable flight on SV (fortunately under 2 hours) with a neighbour who had a problem fitting between the armrests of his own seat and whose elbows "overflowed" into my face when eating his meal. Whilst I feel sorry for anyone who cannot keep their weight to a "healthy level", I do get p1ssed when they apropriate half of the seat space that I paid for :( Fortunately (or perhaps he was being considerate?) he had the window seat so I would not have been blocked in emergency - he'd certainly have taken time to extricate himself if an evac was required :)

As for charter seats - can't comment as I haven't been on one for ages. But the last time, I was quite happy LHR-LCA when the seat and a week's hotel cost me £150!

[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: ExSim ]

[Whiskey Zulu]

Pax Man, the choice is simple:

1. Fly charter, who out of shear economics must get the most pax they can onboard. Once one airline squeezes another seat on (with CAA approval) they all have to or no longer be competitive in the cut throat world of tour operators demand. At least you can buy a drink if you want one rather than have the cost of two included in your fare.

2. Pay £200 more and get more legroom and a free drink on a scheduled airline.

Simple really, so dig your hand deeper into your pocket or stop moaning. :rolleyes:

[PaperTiger]

Back to the 'brace position' consideration...

Has the efficacy of this ever been actually demonstrated ? Seems to me if the seats break lose or the belts rupture, then the position of the pax would be pretty much immaterial. If seats stay in place but things are flying round the cabin, fuselage disintegrating etc., then I think I'd want my head up to see it coming and have a chance to dodge or fend off. Should the need arise, I'll scrunch down, put my feet up on the seat in front, hands over the 'jewels' and turtle my head. This sound any better ?

[M.Mouse]

I am in the US at the moment taking advantage of my staff travel benefits and I too had a pleasant suprise at the new seat pitch with AA. Absolutely wonderful! the funny thing is that of all the airlines available to me AA were the only ones with any spare seats!!!!

[Next Generation PSR]

If anyone can cast their minds back to the Britannia 757 which crashed at Gerona, I think you will find that all 235 pax evacuated from a seat pitch of 28".

Tour operators force charter airlines to put max seats in charter aircraft, and if you want more space you have to pay more, unfortunately it is only a minority who are willing. Try getting a family of four to pay an extra £120 (£30 each) for an extra 2-3" legroom and most won't.

People should quit moaning, like most things in life people get what they pay for.

Unfortunately unless the majority are willing to pay extra, pigs are more likely to fly than charter flights in the UK with 34" seat pitch.

[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: Next Generation PSR ]

[A7E Driver]

My wife loves dragging me to see musicals in London. You think airline seat pitch is bad .... try sitting through 3 hours of Les Mis in those wretched theatre seats. I can feel a musical DVT lawsuit coming on .......

[Paterbrat]

The worst trip ever experienced was an Air France flight to NBO where the seat pitch was riduculous to the point I am convinced a mistake had been made putting the seats in, it has had the effect however of my never ever traveling AF again. Case of Pavlovian reaction possibly.
'Les Mis' seats were princley by comparison, I was somewhat inconvenienced however by a Sumo tourist sitting in front of me. The deathbed scene created a little more vision occlusion because an equaly huge hankey came out to wipe away the tears which was quite touching. My tears however had already flowed for the cost of the seat where I not only was peering round a pillar but at an extremely big bloke in front. I believe he really enjoyed the show though, singing was good I did hear that.
Pleasantly surprised on BA 777 back from Jed the other day but heard it had been a substitution plane from a longhaul route where the seating is a tad more generous. The new layout is very nice indeed and seating V comfortable, I thought for a bit that I had been upgraded to business but it really was the back. Good one Birdseed it was a nice flight, on time, good cabin service, pleasant staff, made me proud to be a Brit, just get Concord back that'll really make our day

[deconehead]

Pax-man
You say you are an experienced flyer so you must have known what the seat pitch would be like on AIH and BY so why book with them? Ignorance is bliss you say and yet you still booked with them. Doh!

A Britman. :confused:

[Pax-man]

Of course I knew in advance that flying long-haul charter would not be pleasant! We were taking lots of family to a wedding, so there was no other viable option, really.

I seem to be accused of whingeing on! Me? I just thought I was telling it like it is! And it is. Long-haul charter is crap. Full-stop. It's not a whinge, it's a fact!

As for the dead-heads who come out with the 'if you don't like it, tough' rubbish, I thought as intelligent aviators you might be a little more reasoned than that!

Flying to me is still the greatest wonder of the world, and every time I leave the runway I never fail to be awestruck by the sheer magic of this incredible engineering feat. I love being a pax, but it's not much fun when your knees are in your chest! That's all I was saying, I guess.

[flypastpastfast]

Pax-man, many of the points you make are correct. The problem is that their are a lot of 'vested interests' who peruse this web site such as charter opeators for example.

I think people have kind of drifted from the original posting, where the article concerned was primarily related to seat pitch and size in relation to safety.

I find it quite bizarre that some in the aviation industry have the belief that it is 'acceptable' to have very cramped seating even if safety is seriously compromised. The study, I believe was designed to address the safety element. It found that safety was compromised to a significant degree with airlines with smallest seats/pitch.

This is an extremely serious matter and hopefully will not be conveniently
'swept under the carpet' for ten years like DVT.

As regards the cost versus room issue in relation to holiday charter flights, the problem is the information given via travel agents. Many people going on 'package' holidays have never been on a plane before, and are seriously surprised when the seats do not live up to the glamorous impression created in the holiday brochures. When booking holidays, the agent always aims to get the lowest price so that the holiday will not be booked via a competitor agent, but most people are not told "by getting you a cheap price, your flight to the canaries will be a truly horrendous experience, and your safety may be compromised in the event of an accident".

Sadly, it is truly ignorant of people in this industry to criticise the passengers for opting for cheap flights when the passengers have no idea at time of booking that their flight would be so cramped.

You will probably find that the majority of passengers who opt for 'premium' charter seats are those who have already flown charter before, or who have been well advised by their agent. I have been on charter flights before, and the look of incredulity and disbelief on some tall passengers faces is remarkable. People who do not fly or work in aviation really do expect the flight will be really comfortable, and are gobsmacked when it is not.

As someone has already said, legislation on minimum seat pitch and size would provide benefits in that all airlines would have to work to the same seating standards. They could then compete on quality of booking/commections/reliability and so on.

I am surprised that the likes of BA have not jumped at this opportunity, as it would give them a considerable advantage against the budget airlines of this world. Stelios would have nightmares.


And all passengers would be happy contented souls (for a while).

I do think the safety element of this needs to be looked at in great detail.

[Whiskey Zulu]

The safety implications have already been looked into. All seating configs in relation to numbers have to pass the rigorous CAA/JAR evacuation test of all off within 90 seconds using half the available exits. It is market forces that decide seat pitch, not safety.

The only completely safe aeroplane is one parked on the ground with no passengers on!! Reality check?

[Squawk 8888]

Regulating seat pitch for safety's sake can backfire big-time. Whenever you push up the lowest fares, more people choose a driving holiday instead- and that prospect is truly frightening.

[PaperTiger]

rigorous CAA/JAR evacuation test of all off within 90 seconds

Rigorous, my left foot !
What possible connection is there between a planeload of fit volunteers knowing there's an evacuation coming and they are in no danger, and a load of hysterical suntrippers comprising children, grannies and soused brickies among others ?

[Crash Barrier]

Paxboy,
You say you don't mind 'paying a higher fare' for more legroom, and then you go over to the Cabin Crew forum to complain endlessly about the cost of the airfare to the Isle of Man!
Screw loose????

[AfricanSkies]

Raise the prices, increase the pitch.

This will have the happy result of decreasing passenger numbers and frustration, and increasing passenger quality and the level of satisfaction of the ones who can afford to fly.

If they can't afford the higher fares, they can stay at home or go to Butlins like last year.

Why let the lowest common denominator determine the industry standard?

[ 10 September 2001: Message edited by: AfricanSkies ]

[PAXboy]

Flypast: I think that BA will keep well away from this idea! Some of the new 777 that for high density routes, such as Florida, have been specially configured to be 10 seat rows, rather than 9. They use narrow seats and aisles and are then able to get nearly 100 extra seats (I stand to be corrected). As freight is not a main feature of these flights, they can take the weight.

When they were first introduced, they faced an action by a pax who was shown a seat layout of the conventional 9-in a row but found himself on the 10-in a row. If I recall correctly, they settled out of court.

The 10-in a row is not used on all their 777s.

CB: As I have already pointed out. My gripe about IOM flight cost is one of monopoly and lack of interest by the IOM govt. Please do not take the trhead off course with repeat postings of information that I have already corrected. However, I am pleased that you remember my posts so well, given that I made that post more months ago than I can recall.

[Crash Barrier]

Paxboy,
As I have said before, you should get your PPL, if money is no object as you are now saying. Then fly 'yourself' to the Isle of Man, therefore not lining any of those nasty airline's pockets. Failing that, go by ferry, failing that stay at home or pay for business class. Who really cares about another few inches of legroom ???
If your time is up, then it's up.
DVT, what crap ?? try spending 7 hours on a N*tional Express bus and you will know what cramped is! Mind you, I suppose they will be ripping seats out next, no more £9 one way fare to London!

[Whiskey Zulu]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
rigorous CAA/JAR evacuation test of all off within 90 seconds
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So how would you make it more realistic? Use real disabled pax, children and elderly to take part? It's as realistic as it can be and if it satisfies the regulatory bodies??

[deconehead]

Pax-man, as you said “we were taking lots of family to a wedding, so there was no other viable option really”. There was another option, have the wedding at home.

Remember, charter airlines provide a service that enables many people to travel where they want to at a price they can afford (your wedding trip for example). No charter, no overseas weddings, very few holidays abroad and the nationals up their prices even higher so even less people can afford to fly away.

A little discomfort for a hols in Disney World is worth it for the many (and many are return customers too).

I do understand your original point though.
:)

[Pax-man]

Flypast,

You hit the nail on the head! Excellent post, getting across some of what I'd been trying to say far better than I ever could.

Deconehead,

You're right, but so am I (if you know what I mean!). Of course I've a choice, but we're all entitled to dislike something AFTER we've paid for it! ;)

[PAXboy]

Dear CB,

As I have said before, the answer is simple - I chose not to take a PPL.

"nasty airline's pockets." I never said that Manx were nasty, just abusing their monoply position with the help of the IOM govt.

"ferry", takes too long, I have tried it. "stay at home" tell that to my mother! "pay for business class", there is none to the IOM.

"Who really cares about another few inches of legroom?" On short haul, not me. My argument you continually misrepresent.

"If your time is up, then it's up." I am not a fatalist.

"try spending 7 hours on a N*tional Express bus and you will know what cramped is!"
I choose not to.

Now, back to the thread ...

[Turkish777]

Just thought I would mention this as there seemed to be a false rumour circulating regarding the above school (well in Florida). Myself and several others were informed that OFT did not have a JAA multi engine instructor and that only a single engine CPL could be achieved. I rang the school today and found out this is not the case and you can infact obtain a multi engine CPL. Just for the record.

Turkish
:ok:

[Keygrip]

They have NOW - they didn't when you asked!! (So it was not a false rumour).

Indeed, at least in theory, they have access to three (now) - but you cannot get one of them at the moment.

[Turkish777]

Only relaying what they said to me yesterday Keygrip.

[A and C]

Do any of you have any comments about Orlando flight training ?

[chickpilot241]

I tried putting it in the search but, no success. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thank YOu.

[G-MANN]

try www.flyoft.com

Been looking at these myself to do ppl. I've had a friend say they are very good. Have a fleet of decent Warriors that are all less than three yrs old.

Of course this is all word of mouth. I have never been myself. Any opinions good or bad appreciated!!

G-MANN

[leonbrumsack]

A friend of mine trained with OFT and I believe he was very happy. So much so that he is going back later in the year!

[G-MANN]

After looking at the thread about Naples Air Centre it got me thinking a little bit. Can anybody describe the state of OFT current fleet or even pics would be better. There are non on their website which makes you wonder why!

I'd rather pay a bit more to learn in an aircraft which is not dirty, rusty, mouldy etc etc.

Also do you think I should purchase my own headset before I go and avoid the sales banter at the school (if there is any!)

G-MANN

[Turkish777]

I finished there last month, what were you going there to do PPL? CPL?

They have 3 multis, few cessnas, quite a lot of cadets/warriors, 2 or 3 heli's

Good value for money, its right in the tourist part (Kissimmee), nice bunch of people there..

[G-MANN]

was looking at doing the JAA PPL for now!! How were the instructors? Did you have the same instructor throughout your course?

G-MANN

[Turkish777]

Yeah same instructor, probably because he was the only instructor lol (in Multi that is).

All the PPL students seemed happy there, doing my multi was sometimes a bit awkward as they only had one multi instructor as I said (JAA) he was very good though.

[v2-Rotate]

So the big question for me is:

OFT (vs) NAC (vs) EFT

PPL + 100 hours to take me up to around 150hrs. Any pointers?:bored:

[Mintflavour]

Sounds like they may have improved. It was about three years ago when I flew with them. I was on holiday in Florida and thought I would get some hours in while I was there. I was plagued with double bookings, very long waits and a/c technical problems which all came to a head with the manager who initially tried to turn it around to me, but eventually had no choice but to reason with my complaint. Whether it was bad luck I dont know but I will not be going back.

As for aircraft, the warrier III's were in very good condition equiped with GPS. The cessna's 152's were a little grotty but then again aren't most 152's around the world.

The instructor for my FAA check out was very nice chap.

All the best with what ever you decide.

Mint

[MOCA]

I did my CAA IMC there nearly 3 years ago now, last year I did FAA PPL, FAA IR and will be returning there to finish off my JAA ME CPL there in a couple of weeks.
Clearly I keep returning there because I am satisfied with the value for money and the service and the planes. To date all my instruction, both FAA and JAA has been first rate.
I know they are currently having accommodation problems - both hotel and student.
They have a fair selection of aircraft - two new 172s (ish) and their two Warriors are ok. PPL is usually taught in either 152 or Cadets which are quite old. Twins include a Seminole, which is ok, and two Duchesses, which are old. They have one Arrow which is crap - but are working on getting another.
I heard a rumour - which is unconfirmed - that they have sold their simulators and not got replacements yet - so anyone planning to do an IR there should check this with OFT.

[cabso1]

i need advice on orlando flight training. does anyone know the company? i was thinkin on taking their pro pilot 1000 which trains upto CFII and then offer u a job as a CFI until u get 1000 hours for employment.

is this offer ok cos u guys know best!!!

[flyingferrets]

Hi, we are 2 brits doing ppl and cpl/ir training at OFT at the moment. We have found them really good. there are always a few hitches wherever you go but the people are great and its a happy place to be. You will work as hard as you want to, instructors are really thorough, nice and hard working.

anyone had the pleasure of meeting morag tho?:}

[count dingleberry]

I'd rather pay a bit more to learn in an aircraft which is not dirty, rusty, mouldy etc etc.


then you need to look elsewhere,
I have been to 2 UK approved flyingschool´s in Florida,
both of them having planes in the condition´s described above.:ouch:

You get what you pay for:ok:

[PPRuNe Towers]

With the pixel count in modern phones (let alone cameras) and hosting sites like photobucket there's absolutely no reason why PPRuNers can't help each other with making educated decisions regarding vast sums of money before traveling to any FTO, UK or elsewhere.

Airframes are only one part of the value equation but unless you look to a career in bush flying or the bottom of the freighting market you will find the state of the aircraft a very important factor for a professional pilot and their career decisions.

The theme on this forum is endemic - they're tatty but them do fix what breaks. As and when your finances recover you will not use that as a basis for buying a home or a car. Many of you are hypnotised and willingly suspending your standards in desperation to fly while accepting the demanding and expensive academic hoops you have to jump through.

In the real world you will find that entirely reversed. You ticket is your ticket and you'll never intentionally fly a mouldy shed.

So there's the challenge. Let's see more photos.

Rob

[Engine Noise]

flying ferrets please check your pm
thx

[Callsign Kilo]

I want to build some hours out of here in March, however after several emails I have had no reply to what I need to know? Is there anyone from there looking at this that can help and send me some details? If so please PM me. Thanks

Kilo

[Engine Noise]

check your pm

[zx9-r]

Was @ OFT summer '02. Very friendly bunch and good instruction. :ok:

[cheesycol]

Was at OFT July and August 05 for Hour Building + MEP, Night and JAA CPL. Great place, great people, awesome flying. Never had a problem with double booking, but as an hour builder your slot is open to be taken by a guy/gal who needs to do a flight pre-CPL or PPL skills. They may not have quite the number of instructors required for JAA CPL, they could probably hire another instructor to get people through in the time that they promise. However, I did 135 hours in 7 weeks and I can't wait to go back for some more flying when I have the money.

I certainly would not describe their aircraft as mouldy old sheds. They are certainly very well used and with the cost of flying in the US, coupled with the weather then what do you expect? They are in the sky for many hours a day. Therefore if the VOR goes u/s on a 152 it will still fly until the next maintenance. Saying that though, I found their 172s to be immaculate as they are only a few years old and their Warrior IIIs are also in tip top nick. However if you want to pay £35 an hour then you will fly an aircraft that doesn't look new - i.e. a 20+ year old 152. That stands wherever you go. I got incredible value for money on aircraft that may not all look shiny and new but I assure you that they fly just the same, I mean I've paid £100+ an hour to fly said aircraft in the UK and that is before landing/touch and go fees. If you're loaded, pay more and get the shiniest aircraft you can - if you're not (like me), hunt for a bargain, whichever you choose you will hone exactly the same skills. If they are well maintained then there should be few problems with your bargain. Enjoy OFT if you go, I recommend it.

[Tim_donovan]

OFT,
I went there in 2003 and had a great time. If you are planning to go the whole hog i.e ATPL then this is a good start.
All the guys that went out there when I was there all have jobs bar 1/2 people now.
I believe it was an extremely good grounding in flying to start with. I now have time to reflect on a number of points/posts made.
The Aircraft: I did my ppl in a Cadet which was fine. Then for my hour build I used the might 152. Note regarding the mould/rusty etc Does the mould effect your flying? Nope!! Does the rust effect your flying yes.. Well come on a second, would the plane be flying if it wasn't airworthy? Nope So rust is not really the right word to use. If there is some thing wrong with the plane you as a responsible pilot or wannabe pilot would and should notice this on your walk round. It is after all your pink body that is about to commit aviation and with every flight you can make the go / no go decision. If in doubt ask. There is no such thing as a stuppid question. Anyway I think you catch my drift.
(I don't require a dig from anyone about the above)
I had a wicked time me and another guy went all over florida together and then, when we returned to UK did Ground school together and he now flies Q400's and I fly corporate aircraft.
The accomodation on the other hand was crap and extremely over priced so be carefull on that part.
My advice is to get the ground exams out the way before going out there as this will release more time for you to get to grips with how to fly and enjoying the Kissimmmeeeeee/Orlando entertainment.
If you are in it for the long term I personally would recommend you do your CPL / IR in the UK because it is different flying in UK then it is in the States. Yes it costs more but at some point you are likey to be in UK airspace.
I hope this helps you and if you do go to Florida make sure you go to : Sharky's in Venice on the beach for lunch.
Ocala for great burgers.
Key West for an over night.
If you get the chance go to the Bahamas in a twin.
Fly with another aircraft from Venice down to Naples along the coast.
Touch and goes at Lake wales. I could go on for ever.
Just the only thing to watch out for is any hidden costs right at the start.
And OFT are quite good at those hidden costs
Happy Days:ok:

[Rock Lobster]

I was at OFT for 2 months (Oct-Dec 2004), mainly flying C172 for PPL and hour building, with some Duchess hours for a multi rating. The C172's they had then were excellent and I didn't have any major problems with the school.
As per most places for training, you do sometimes need to keep on top of them to make sure your slots are booked and you are getting what you want out of your time there. However, if you are not easily messed around, then you will enjoy it.
I would recommend OFT, although I haven't been for over a year. At least there is a use for Disney Land as a vrp, instead of just being a place for gourging on burgers, just to revisit your lunch on the roller coasters. :yuk:

[Flying Felix]

I have been to OFT twice in the past 3 years. I have flown their twins, singles and helicopters. Even though an administrative problem stopped my helicopter flying last time the situation was resolved amicably. I would recommend OFT to anybody but bear in mind the following points which apply to all flying schools in the USA:
1. The majority of instructors are people building hours to go onto better jobs. They get paid about $10.00 per flying hour. So treat them with respect especially if they have put themselves out for your benefit.
2. Be fully aware of what you are paying for and what charges will be levied. Some schools have fees that they don’t advertise as fully as their basic charges, but are there to be found. It is an all too often situation where people are not fully aware of all the charges, their account runs out early and they complain of being overcharged.
3. The time at the school is work and not a holiday. Be on time, ready to go and be prepared to put in study at night.
4. The profit margin at flying schools is very low, so if you are after cheap flying expect the aircraft to be a bit tatty and a little tired. Due to legislation in the USA, the maintenance schedule should make all the aircraft legal and safe.
5. Sh1t happens; expect aircraft to go tech, bad weather and other problems.
6. Enjoy.

[funfinn2000]

ah hello guys i have all the answers you seek , i used to be a CFI there and
i'll gladly answers yer questions . pm me .

[fatboyslimfast]

HI all

Im interested in hearing from anyone who trained at OFT in Kissimmee, im going out there to do some hour building and commercial training and want to know what to expect.

Cheers

[wolanyo]

hey, how you doing?

check out page 7 of this forum, plenty of info there.

i have done all my training there and shall be returning next week to the FIC.

just make sure you establish from the beginning what you intend to do there and what time frame you have. allow for weather, a/c going tech, and the laid back approach.

[fatboyslimfast]

I take it from the "laid back" quote, its down to me to arrange all of my bookings etc.

You dont know if im able fly 7 days a week if i fall behind on my schedule do you? Whether thats hour building, night imc and comm instruction.

cheers

[wolanyo]

yes indeed, it is up to you to schedule your a/c, and to make sure you get what you want.

you can fly 7 days a week with the weekends usually being quite quiet when hr building. When I was there last september there was only one JAA CPL instructor and we had to obviously work around his days off but they were going through a transitional period and hopefully that has been overcome by now.

When do you expect to be going?

[fatboyslimfast]

Im hoping to get out there for the beginning of April, around the 1st 2nd or 3rd.

Basically im just waiting on OFT to send me the forms i need to book my appointment at the embassy in London. Ive been told that i can expect to get my visa appoinment about 3 weeks after posting my application. HOPEFULLY thats the case. Im out there for about 9 weeks, then im coming back to do my IR and MCC.

Then im sure that Virgin are going to hire me as an A380 1 OF

Otherwise i will do an instructors rating after completing my MCC

When are you getting out there, and for how long,

[wolanyo]

I'll be out there tue 28th feb.

Should be doing my FI from thursday in Sebastian for 4 weeks, returning 5th April.

If there is anything you need to know whilst I'm out there let me know and I'll keep you posted.

[ROI1900D]

Does anyone know if they do the modular course for the ATPL exams?
Need to convert from ICAO to JAA
Thanks very much

[BritishGuy]

No they don't. Only people that do them in Florida is Naples Air Center.

[gls.fly]

Wolanyo

Im going out at the same time.

Check your email / private messages


G

[fly.flyco]

Hello
Im looking for someone who did all his training in Orlando Flight training...
-Is it a good school to do a PPL+CPL+IR multi?
-how long does it take to do it?
-pros and cons to go there?

thanks a lot!
:D

[Tim_donovan]

Did my intial training out there.
PPL Hour Build and MEP
Great place just watch the extra charges
Do a search on OFT and there are lots of answers to most questions.
Happy Flying;)

[Gotta_Hope]

Hi, I'm considering training at OFT in Florida for taking PPL and CPL Multi-Engine Courses and their requirements seem confusing to me :confused:

On their website on both the PPL and CPL pages it says the requirements for taking the courses, although some of them seem impossible to have for someone beginning flight training, e.g. on their PPL page it says this:

JAA Private Pilot Training Eligibility Requirements:
1. Be able to speak and understand the English language.
2. Hold a current JAA class 2 medical certificate.
3. Pass the JAA PPL written examinations with a score of 75% or more.
4. Pass a radiotelephony practical test.
5. Complete a qualifying a 150 NM cross country flight.
6. Pass a JAA skill test.

Are these requirements for STARTING the course or are they requirements for passing and being issued with the licence? The same questions apply for the requirements on the CPL page:

PRE-ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
JAA CPL ELIGIBILITY
1. Be able to speak and understand the English language.
2. Hold a JAA class 1 medical certificate.
3. Provide evidences of passing JAA ATPL/CPL written exams from the CAA.
4. Hold a radiotelephony license.

<SPAN class=body2><SPAN class=body2><FONT face="Times New Roman">

[Gotta_Hope]

Sorry, missed a bit out :uhoh:

continued on from above:

JAR CPL AERONAUTICAL EXPERIENCE
1. Have completed 150 hours flight time.
2. Have at least 100 hours P1 (PIC) time.
3. Holder of Night Qualification.
4. Have completed a qualifying cross country flight of 300 nautical miles
with 2 landings at 2 different aerodromes other than the departure point.
5. Have complied with JAA-FCL 1.225 and 1.240 if a multi engine aeroplane is to be used on the skill test.

Obviously the last four points in the post above are needed before starting, but surely the ones titled Aeronautical Experience are well out of reach for someone starting CPL Training?

It doesn't seem very clear to me, but maybe its a stupid question.

Thanks,
Gotta_Hope

[Pink skies]

Hi

For the PPl these are requirements that you must achieve throughout the duration of your traing and are in no way pre entry requirements. i would however recommend you get the medical before you go, also think about doing the exams before you go.

With regards to the CPL they are indeed pre entry requirements. Feel free to PM me.

[Pink skies]

Hi again

I believe they are all requirements for the issue of a CPL.

[Doc 4]

Hi , I did my PPL 3 years ago with OFT. Think again before you go there.
After PPL with OFT i decided to do FAA CPL/IR/Multi at the same airport but with another school. To many things that were NOT OK with OFT........oh yes they do have the accident record at Kissimmee airport....no doubt.

[Gotta_Hope]

Like what? Has anyone else had any experience with them, good or bad? I did a search earlier and the results came up pretty good for OFT

[Paris Dakar]

I rented an aircraft (C172) from them two weeks ago.

The guy checking me out was great chap named XXXXXXX. The aeroplane was nice and tidy, and the outfit seemed well run. There was a lot of students milling around the place and it all looked very busy.

There was a slight misunderstanding over the time I agreed to take the aircraft and I got a stern talking to from the front desk but on the whole the experience was positive.

PD

[BritishGuy]

They've had 2 airplanes crash in the last 8 months. Both students (on solo) both trained at (and by OFT). Be careful.

[What's a Girdler]

Try Sunstate Aviation, same airfield!

[fatboyslimfast]

im heading out to oft on the 16th april to hour build and then complete my multi comm. Is anyone else out there going at the same time and fancy sharing some navs, or meeting up for a few beers

[Jez_G]

Having moved to Orlando last Sept (from the UK) i'm currently studying for FAA licences in my own aircraft based in Kissimmee airport. I also have a job at one of the FBO's on the field and have heard (and experienced) some slightly scary stories originating from OFT. I would definately warn anyone considering training there to be cautious.
On the other hand, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Sunstate aviation (also at KISM) is a great outfit with good maintenance (their mechanics help maintain my aeroplane) and reasonable prices - in fact the best prices around (i was there only yesterday buying a few complex hours!). Hope this helps anyone coming to the area for training.
Beers and flying chat always good, anyone in the area interested let me know.

[Sensible]

I use Sunstate when I take a winter break in Kissimmee - great people, great airplanes, great prices BUT, they don't do JAA training, only FAA.

I believe, although will no doubt be corrected, that for JAA training, there is a choice between OFT, OBA and NAC in the whole of Florida,

<<edit: You missed EFT @ Ft Pierce. - but you included NAC, who (currently) are no longer JAA approved. That makes it EFT, OBA and OFT (in alphabetical order).>>

[What's a Girdler]

I heading there tomorrow to fly with Sunstate for a week, it does seem strange that the 3 JAA providers are all a little dodgy! I reckon if you want to train for a European licence you should do it in Europe! Same goes for an American one, do it in America! Jez, if you're around I'll be in Sunstate, pop in and say hi!

[porridge]

When I was there there was the question: "What's the difference between the swamp and a flight school in Florida"; answer:"There are far fewer alligators in the swamp."

[the goon]

I did my PPL at OFT many many moons ago (Last centuary!). It was great. Prices were good, aircraft clean, tidy and always available when they said they would be. Instructor was excellent, got me a first time pass at the flight test. I`m now flying professionally and no problems were found during my advanced training that could be blamed on basic training.

I think with some schools, you pays your moneys and takes your chances.:cool:

[alex1]

Fatboyslimfast...... I am heading out to OFT on the 4th April do do my JAA CPL. This is the second time I have been to OFT, the first time was in 2004 to do my PPL. I have already done my hour building, but that beer sure sounds like a plan!!!.

[bluefeather]

This school offers a Frozen ATPL for $18000, but no one seems to comment on it....Anyone been there or have any advise?

[KandiFloss]

Hi People,

I've booked to do my PPL/Night rating with OFT early in September 2006, any one else going to be there?

[cheesycol]

Did my night rating, JAA CPL and hour building at OFT last summer. Had a great time and encountered few problems that aren't endemic across the entire training spectrum. I recommend it.

[type1]

hey pilotprincess

i'll be at OFT doing my ME CPL for 3 weeks from the 10th of september so hopefully see you there??

type1

[KandiFloss]

Hi Type 1,

Yes, I guess so! I see that you are going out to do your ME CPL, where did you do your previous training?

At the moment i'm just trying to get the rest of my PPL exams done. Aeroplane technical next. Also trying to sort out my visa for USA, interview with the US Embassy on the 24th July, i've heard you spend ages queuing. Have you been to USA before?

regards,

PP

[3bars]

Did my CPL there...they messed me around something terrible.... wouldn't recommend them....also kissimmee a dump!!!

[PAJ]

Hi Guys

I'm headed to OFT on 24th July to do my PPL/ Night Rating. Anyone else going to be there then? I'm still not fully up to scratch on all my exams so would be up for a few beers and perhaps someone who is still needing to finish of work for the ground exams.

PAJ

<<edit: Night What? It's a night "qualification" - not a rating.>>

[Speed220]

Dear Fellow Ppruners,

I heard in my "rumor" network that Orlando Flight Training wil start a residential ATPL course as of this summer/fall?

Is there anybody on Pprune who can confirm that? I checked there website but it doesn't say anything about it. Seems to be quite inviting to go to Florida for the ATPL and do the hourbuilding and the JAA ME/CPL in one go and enjoy the nice weather and save a lot of $$$ on top of it. Althought I heard that Kissimee is not realy the best place to be, anyway, I would like to know the fact's about this. Since the other school is not doing JAA flighttraining for the time being.


Speed220

[TheChiefPilot]

I hear that the other school will be up and running with the flight training by the end of this week. The ground school is excellent aswell a good pass rate. So keep your options open

[Speed220]

OK TheChiefPilot , I guess there is more to choose from when you're looking for flyingtraining including ATPL in the US:)

And yes, pass rates are important to me:) Oh wel, we will see how things turn out at the other school, I am sure they'll let us know on Pprune if things are up to speed again.

But then again, if they have a new HOT and CPL instructor, what will the First time passrate be for the CPL/ME practical? Wich is even een more costly thing then an ATPL exam.

Dicisions Dicisions :ugh:

Speed220

[charliealphamike]

Hi

I have also heard that rumour the other day from a friend of mine. Apparently ATPL ground school starts in October 2006. I am just waiting for an email to confirm though. If any one else can shed any more light, it would be appreciated.

[charliealphamike]

well i spoke to my source and he is finding out the course prices and times, as soon as i have any more info will let fellow p pruners know

[Engine Noise]

Was once at OFT . How is the school now? Are things better now?

[Fladbrokeandbusted]

Hi guys and girls

I hope to finish my ATPL´s during Nov here in the UK. The thing is that I really would like to get my CPL/IR done as fast as possible and without to much delay due weather or whatever the reasons could be. Offcourse I want good quality with my training as well, and i was wondering if anyone here have had experinces with CPL training here in the UK during nov? How long would you recon a CPL would take to complete in Nov/Dec? and would you recommend it here in that time of year?

Im thinking about doing it in OFT, Florida as well onlyt becourse of the weather there. Anyone had CPL experience with them?? I really would like to get on with it and complete my certificates in a reasonable amount of time.

What are youre thoughts on this??

Thank you :ok:

[Hufty]

I was in a similar situation a couple of years ago. I will take a stab in the dark and state that it could take 1 to 2 months to get your CPL done in the UK in November. OK, it could vary enormously but the weather is usually pretty poop here then and you need good weather for most of it.

I did my IR here and finished by the last week of November. I flew straight to Florida (not OFT) and got the CPL done in a fortnight.....flying every day except for one day the aircraft was getting an annual. I would recommend doing your IR in the UK in real weather then doing the CPL in the US.

[genius747]

OFT are starting the ATPL residential groundschool in October this year. They are advertising for it already.

[hobbit1983]

Speaking as someone who's been to OFT this summer.... for the record-

Yes problems do occur, see my other posts re. OFT. However I must say that when I was there, having met/talked to them personally, Boots & Karem (sp? sorry) were not "the most uptight little ", and also I got on well with the other instructors. I certainly didn't meet any I considered what you called them, and they are a good bunch IMHO.

I sympathize with your problems; I also had issues that left me seething. Fair enough; they weren't in the league of being grounded without being picked up, but they were still sizeable IMHO.

After I talked to them these problems were sorted out. I don't know if you've done so already, or are able to/left the USA, but I suspect that if you sit down with Ms. J. Roldan she will help you.

I agree that their record-keeping/maintanence could be better - and I was pretty annoyed too - but I think I should also present a 2nd opinion in this thread. Yes they did mess up, and yes it should never have happened, but they did sort it out.

I wish you the best in getting your issues resolved - (although from what has now been posted, it seems that OFT did actually deal with the issues quite well in the first place anyway! Thank you Scroggs)

Hobbit

[BA123]

Hi guys im looking at a course of 60 days for £10'000 at Orlando flight training. included in the course is all accomodation, jaa ppl, night rating, IMC and Multi engine rating.

I am looking at this course because it greatly reduces the cost and the amount of training I will have to complete when i return to the UK.

What i want to know is, is it worth it and is it a good school ?

Cheers.

[BlueRobin]

Using the "Search this forum" facility will give you good, instantaneous feedback.

Commander Scroggs - would it be a good idea to create add another school-specific thread and add it to the FAQ?

[PAJ]

I was out with OFT this summer to do my ppl/ night rating and would recommend it. My experiences were generally good - in fact any complaints I might have are so pinickity that I am not going to go into them here.

The instructors on the whole were all really nice and good pilots - really know their stuff. There were definitely some JAA/ FAA discrepencies that had to be taken to the CFI to get a final answer but this is no inconvenience for the money you save.

Just got three new (well not new but you know!) cadets which looked decent enough. I flew the 152 and have few complaints about them. They are not shiney new by any stretch of the imagination as no 152's are, but they are safe - OFT only allow max of 2.5 hrs before refuelling in the but I know one individual who managed to get a 152 all the way from Key West back to Kissimmee in one flight - flying on fumes at the end mind as it was in the region of 5 hrs (!!) but to save money, use the 152! The cadets are nice tho - occasionally you have them go tech - the multi's were flippin' awful while I was out there but maybe that was just then.

My advice to you is do as much work before going - I didnt as I had uni work until only a week before I left and this meant that I had to work my ass off - up before 6, bed around 11. I managed to get the exams all done in 10 days but I would not recommend that to anyone!! Get them done so you can concentrate on flying - its absolutely beautiful out there!!

Also, watch senior mgt/ sales - factor and extra 25% on to your budget at least for flying alone, then also think about expenses such as food. Make you own judgements about the place when you are out there. Don't listen to other students who have nothing good to say as that is not true! Yeh, some of the managers might be muppets in some people's eyes but you have to remember they are running a business.

Good school, good instructors, good aircraft, not so good ground-schooling facilities but get the weather and you're gonna be fine. As long as you are willing to work very hard - if not, I would suggest you dont bother. Costs will accumulate so fast that way making it cheaper to do it in the UK. For perspective, I went from basically zero hrs and only air law studied to ppl/ nr in 18 days. It's do-able if you put the effort in.

Hope that helps

[JOCK 113]

Hello BenAek,

There seems to be some confusion with your post and I will try and help you resolve it. I am sorry that we did not send you your night rating application form, but due to the circumstances surrounding your departure, we did not see your logbook.

1.Quote:I am not underestimating the school in anyway but I feel that it needs to be told that for example after 4 weeks now of waiting for my Night Rating to be issued by them and being promised it would be with me within the week , it hasn't shown up and I am starting my CPL/IR on Monday.

The only people that can issue you with a night rating, are the CAA Personnel Licensing Department at Gatwick and not as you state OFT. That said, Is subject to you having completed a course of training, you personally filling out an application form and signing it, and having your logbook stamped and signed as Logbook Entries Correct. But correct me if I am wrong: 1. You did not fill out an application form before you went back to the UK. 2. You did not get your logbook stamped and signed by myself, as you are aware, I was out of the office renewing my medical on the Friday. As you are well aware, you were still waiting confirmation from the CAA regarding the legality of your CPL qualifying cross-country flight. Why were we still waiting confirmation about the legality of your cross-country flight? Answer, because you chose to ignore the advice that I had given you about the CPL qualifying flight, decided to do your own thing, and that flight, did not meet the requirements which is why you had to do it again. I had asked you on more than one occasion if you had received an email from the CAA, but each time you answered that you were still waiting.

2. Quote: I am a bit worried about the maintenance of the A.C, i wont explain what happened to me because Ill get another bollocking but anyway just be careful as with any and most flying schools check out the safety standards and records.

Regarding aircraft maintenance, when asked if you primed a HOT ENGINE, you replied YES. Engine fires on the ground are a result of improper starting techniques, please refer to the approved checklist for starting a hot engine.
It is a pity that the problems you had with the aircraft were Self Inflicted, that you did not follow our approved checklist : Quote: IF ENGINE IS HOT:DO NOT PRIME OR PUMP THROTTLE. I am sure that most people will know what I am talking about, especially when the outside air temperature was in excess of +30C.

So BenAek, how can we resolve your problems. Well if you would like to send me back your logbook, so that I can check your logbook matches the training records, I will personally do the paperwork for you, and dispatch it within 24 hours. If this is not acceptable then please advise me accordingly.

You have already called and apologised for the last post, why would you post again in such a negative manner.

In today's world, the telephone or email work's absolutely wonders.

Andrew.

[hobbit1983]

Thanks - but that link doesn't work, not sure why. Here's the image-
http://www.geocities.com/bkoprowski/avgal/coursesmall.jpg
Re. your views on OFT -
My views have already been stated on here. But to sum up, in my experience, yes they did mess up, but yes they did sort it out.
And I got on quite well with all the instructors & couldn't fault them. The issues I had were all with finances/accounting etc.
Hobbit

[Callsign Kilo]

I was there in March/April hourbuilding. You do a worringly quick check ride where you are shown a few local landmarks, thrown a 1/4 and 1/2 mil chart and away you go. Felt a bit uneasy on my first few flights as I had never flown in the US before and only had around 80-90 hours total time, so it was a steep learning curve. I didn't feel I got much help on the ground either, as most instructors who I asked questions regarding planning, airspace, wx etc seemed pretty unwilling to help (I felt that because I was an hourbuilder, rather than a student I was considered not to be worth the bother). It got to the point were I felt uncomfortable asking, and if it wasn't for a friendly British guy who was out there doing his CPL, I would have been in lumber! I might add that he and a few others in his group were fairly pissed off at the time due to scheduling and tech issues!

In the end I am only commenting as someone who simply hired an aircraft to do 40 hours of solo flying, so the story may be different from other actual students. There are a lot of good people there who work for the company, and as I said, some not so good. Based on my experience I wouldn't have conducted any type of training there, but that is only my opinion. Things may be a lot better :)

[oscar charlie 7]

I have been an instructor in the UK for almost ten years. I know we all have the reputation for being very snobby when it comes to American flight training but this is not the case.

If you are intending on flying in the UK then the best place for you to do any licence is in the UK. Likewise, if you are intending on flying in the USA then the States is the place to do your licence.

I have only heard bad things from students at OFT. One came back having been bullied close to tears to sit her licence after the appropriate 45 hours had elapsed. Another said that the aircraft she did her first solo in had no back to the seat! A lot of these schools claim you will be guaranteed your licence / rating in the minimum hours. Seems to good to be true? It is! For example, the average PPL in the UK is 55 hours and it seems amazing that in these flight schools, everyone sits their test at 45 hours? Did they all reach solo standard at the same time??

Anyway, not to be too depressing on the ole American system - I have only heard good things about the Californian and Texan flight schools. Avoid Florida like the plague (in my humble opinion)

[BA123]

Its ok for you to say avoid florida like the plague however there arent any caa approved flight schools in the texan area or california !!!

[PAJ]

Lots of negatives about OFT so far!! I came back from them at the end of august, having been out there for only 22 days total - with no powered time to speak of, only some gliding and very little preparation for ground school I finished my PPL and Night rating in 19 days. The guys and gals out there were excellent on the whole - some instructors better than others but all in all, they know their stuff and have lots of time for their students.

Mgt on the other hand are somewhat more debatable! You will hear lots of different things about the guys in the offices, much of it negative but I have to say that I didn't really have any probs. It's all down to your attitide I think. For me it was not a holiday - up at half five every day, try to fly twice/ three times a day, then up till gone eleven studying for ground exams and RT.

Treat mgt with respect and understand that they are running a business so are going to try to get money off you. If you have the right attitude and put in the effort, you can get everything done for what you are quoted - however, you will NOT be pushed to do that extra study -you have to tell them that you want to read ahead, or get that extra hour of ground school and they will help however they can.

I saved thousands on what I would have paid over here and got to fly to some amazing places - places that you just dont get back here. OFT are a good outfit in my opinion. Perhaps I am being naive but I've got my license which is what I wanted and had a good laugh and met some great people in the process.

[lilpilot]

Anyone starting the October Ground School at OFT?
Thinking of either that in december or BGS...any thoughts welcome

[markymojo]

My oh my, OFT are having a bit of a slating here this week! Some of the critisisms may be valid, but I think it needs balancing a little.

I've spent a fair bit of time at OFT doing various things during my training. I came away feeling a little surprised at obvious gaps in the 'customer experience'. After then coming back to the UK and dealing with some of the schools here, I realised that actually OFT weren't so bad after all!

I agree if you're going to fly in a country then you should train there, but there is some leeway there i think. If you're intention is to only go as far as a PPL then perhaps training in the UK is best. But for someone with commercial aspirations who knows they are going to be spending 50k then the US is an option....

If you do your PPL in the states and then your CPL and IR in the UK, you can reasonably expect to be a competant UK flyer. Similar result if you do your PPL in the UK and then your CPL (and some hours building) in the states. Perhaps easier that way around because flying in the states is a lot more forgiving than the UK in terms of airspace and RT.

As for OFT, well yes there were things i griped about but on the whole I was pleased with what i got. Pilot training does not offer much hand-holding so you have to been assertive and pro active to ensure things work out.

The Ops staff were great, but you need to keep a close eye for occasional accounting mistakes (quickly resolved)! The support behind them was excellent too. Problems I had were quickly resolved by either the CFI, JP or the nice senior admin lady upstairs. I can't comment on bullying people to take their test, but I was never pushed forward to do my test when i wasn't ready, and i went over a little. A student pilot believing they're ready for a first solo or a test, is often different to that of the instructor. Who knows best? I don't know! But it would be awful for an instructor to know his student is ready, but just take the money anyway. I'M NOT SUGGESTING EITHER WAY IN THE CASE MENTIONED EARLIER!!

The free evening groundschool was useful, but you have to just get your head in the books too. On the whole the instructors were good, but i thought some (a small some) of the US instructors didn't apply themselves well to the students. Maybe this happens most places? There were some excellent instructors and i count myself fortunate in having one of them (British actually!). I wonder sometimes on the subtle cultural differences in the cockpit - tone of voice, phraseology, attitudes? Also the fact that US pilots generally have to go through the rights of passage that is instructing and so some just don't want to be there! More british instructors?

My only real critisism is of the maintenance of the aircraft. It was consistently suggested to me that a/c problems were caused by those who make the money decisions. Fair enough. But this balance of profit v safety was the biggest issue for me. And it shouldn't have to be because OFT, with it's high number of European students, must surely have better margins than most US schools?

If maintenance is no longer an issue (interested to hear), then I'd have no hestation in recommending OFT as a flight school. Great people and you'll enjoy your time there, make some fantastic friends from all over and possibly do some fantastic flying. Highlights for me were:

-> passing first time!
-> flying over the Smokey mountains one day, then flying into Memphis International (which is huge!) the next, borrowing a car and heading over to Graceland!
-> I suppose i should mention the winghouse too......

[hobbit1983]

Hard to forget the Winghouse :ok:

[Keygrip]

....and the Hoop Dee Doo, Capones and Dixie Stampede?

[hobbit1983]

Well I say hard. But hard to remember is a relative term, directly proportional to the amount of alcohol purchased from the lovely young serving ladies...:ok:

So…quite possibly! (Are they dances, bars or something else?) The "British" pubs were quite good too.

[markymojo]

Well i managed Dixies and Capones, even managed to beat Piers at crazy golf too! Admittedly I don't think he knew we were competing!

Never made it to the Hoop Dee Doo. Of course I was doing a lot of studying at the time!

[JOCK 113]

Benaek,
As originally quoted 7 DAYS AGO, please send me back your logbook and I will personally make sure that it is sent back to you within 24 hours.
Still awaiting logbook arrival, no emails and still no phone calls.

Andrew

ps. scanned copies are unreadable

[JOCK 113]

Benaek,

You know my email address, and you have not sent me an email. My offer of sending me your logbook is withdrawn from this moment onwards.

Andrew

[hobbit1983]

You do sound crazy...

[BlueRobin]

Surely the PM system would be a better medium than a public airing?

[Engine Noise]

was among the first students to have trained at oft's new place at sebastien even though i did nt stay to complete my program. They were really nice to me and i never had any problem with them.Brit,Ray and steve durommond were really nice, friendly. And i dont think they were ever intrested in reaping me off!

[worldpilot]

I did my PPL with OBA and never got the impression that I was being trained to fly only in the United States, even though it was a JAA-PPL training. I hold a UK license, live in Germany, and have flown in several European countries without noticing a big difference. If you understand the rules and regulations of the respective country you are fying in, and have studied the appropriate charts, you won't have any problem flying in any part of this world.

WP

[hobbit1983]

BenAek,

I apologise if I am poking my nose where it doesn't belong, but my comment was intended to be light banter.

May I politely suggest that calm, rational direct communication between yourself & OFT might be a far better way to resolve the problems, rather than posting on Pprune.

Despite the fact that me & OFT never really saw eye to eye, I am at pains to point out that they did in fact sort out all my problems when I confronted them with my issues. My only remaining gripe is that the problems were allowed to happen in the first place.

And I most certainly do not share your opinions of the instructors there - quite the opposite in fact.

[1711]

I was put in touch with OFT through Cabair. I did a PPL at OFT in 2004, hour building and ME/CPL earlier this year. I then went onto Cabair at Cranfield for ME/IR and MCC. I am a member of a British flying club and I fly in both countries.

My best advice would be to try an get the 7 PPL exams finished before you go or as a minimum get most of the study done in the UK so that you just have revision to do out in USA. That way, you can concentrate on the flying.

I have never had any issues with OFT. If there are things that you are unhappy with the best thing to do is speak with OFT. I found all staff only to keen to help out but as with all things in life, you get the right results when you approach things with the right attitude.

Infact, I'll echo previous comments of MarkMojo (Hi mark, how ya doing, good to see you at Heathrow a couple of weeks ago) compared to some so called "respectable" clubs and schools in the UK that I have been with, OFT is pretty good.

Don't put artificial time constraints on your training. I have to say that some of the advertised times are too optimistic. I'd say, for a PPL allow 6 weeks, for a CPL allow 4 weeks. But be flexible enough to stay for longer. I did my ME/CPL in 2 weeks but only because I got lucky with the weather (yes they do have weather - lots of it - see below) and I flew twice a day every day until the hours were done. It was the hardest flying that I have done so far (even harder than the ME/IR training and skills test in the UK which was actually quite straight forward) That reminds me, someone commented earlier that people were flying to PPL skills test standard quicker than in the UK. I'd suggest that the reason for this is because most PPL in the UK is done over a longer period of time than when in the USA which is done almost everyday. You therefore pick up and develop the flying skills quicker so it does not surprise me that US trained pilots get to standard quicker. Remember, you may not be any good or have no flying aptitude. Or you may decide to give into temptation and go to Disney more often or get drunk at the winghouse and have lots of sleep ins. The time you'll take to finish training depends on your aptitude and your motivation. If it takes longer, look in the mirror first before blaming others.

As for bullying. Never seen it. What I did witness was plenty of students who were lacking in confidence when actually they were at a pretty good standard. They got cold feet when nearing test time and some staff were quite rightly trying to motivate individuals to do the test. I can tell you that OFT would never let anyone solo or test if they were not up to it.

Flying in Florida can be as difficult as the UK. I have done lots of hours in both countries and I personally find UK airspace slightly easier. I will agree that in Florida, unlike the UK, you can fly around for hours avoiding airspace. You won't learn anything though, so don't be radiophobic, go looking for airspace transits etc. OFT is sandwiched between Orlando and Tampa. There are MOA's (similar to Danger Areas) and other flight restrictions like Disney and Kennedy Space Centre. There are plenty of radio and airspace issues there to learn that are as demanding as the UK. Some airports can be very busy and at Kissimmee you can expect very busy circuits with biz jets and loads of GA traffic. But it is up to you. Be sensible with your learning and look to develop yourself rather than take the easy route - you'll only get out what you put in.

Weather. Another myth about it being easier in the US. Lots of turbulence (you'll learn to trim very well) regular thunderstorms, clouds and winds. You'll get lots of practice of landing in a crosswind and right on the limits of the aircraft and in turbulence. Also, the density altitudes are much higher too which affects performance.

Navigation. Miles of featurless swamps. Less features than the UK and so you really learn the benefits of accurately maintaining heading and speed - especially at night! You'll need to develop a good system of navigation to be sure you'll pass either the PPL/CPL test.

But at the end of the day it is a question of econmics. Fuel is much cheaper than the UK. I saved 000's on my training but because I did it all through Cabair "pathfinder" my CV is not as messy as some. Remember, even Oxford use the USA. Also remember that it is in the interests of British Flying Clubs to rubbish US flying because they are competing for your business.

Final thought, I am comfortable flying in 2 countries. It's a bit like having a second language and the more exposure one has two different flying environments, the better a pilot one becomes.

[hobbit1983]

Then I wish you the best of luck with having the issues resolved.

My point was, that Jock 113 did seem willing to communicate with you to get them sorted.

Anyway, as you say, enough bitching.

[1711]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[hobbit1983]

Sorry to bore you?

[EGNT-FLYER]

Hi, im just new to this but i've been looking at the Orlando Flight Training website and its got they offer a JAA FROZEN ATPL for £26,495. To me that sounds to cheap but i was just wondering if everyone else thought it was a bit cheap.

Alan.

[scroggs]

by BenAek

it is a free speech world.

Sorry, son, but it's not. There are a few countries where a right of free speech exists, but in most it does not. There are no countries where the right of free speech extends to saying what you like, where you like, about who you like (or don't). There are very strong laws against such 'free speech', even in UK and the USA. And Pprune is a privately-owned website; you can no more say what you like here than you can in my living room.

That's not a dig, just a reminder of the realities of life.

Scroggs

[caramel]

You will find everywhere you go people will have problems with a company and others won't.

Me personally I went to OFT and found it OK, it has the potential to be a great school and it'll be intresting to see how the groundschool goes, like all places there are good and not so good instructors I would go when its not summer as its busy and wx is crap after 1300z most days. maybe they should employ a student liason officer who the students can approach with any problems????

I did have some problems which were sorted out with no problems the staff were great especially the fine young lady upstairs;)

Winghouse!!!!! only hooters for me baby!

[ForeverFlight330]

I was at OFT back in 2003, and went back there in January 05 to keep current on my PPL and Multi. OFT is a very good school, and I enjoyed everyday I spent there. Just like any organisation in the world, there are problems, and they do their best to resolve them. There was a constant changing of Ops staff and Mx staff but the instructors were really nice people with a lot of knowledge.

I am looking to go out there again this January to re validate my PPL / Multi and I am really looking forward to it. I've heard people talk about how bad their multi's are, but their Seminole was a sweet aircraft and one thats a pleasure to fly.

After completing my ATPL ground school i'm going to go to OFT to do my Multi CPL as I feel that they are a good sound school.

People talk about how easy it is to fly out in the states, but as someone pointed out earlier, you try navigating through miles and miles of nothing but swamp land.

Just like any flight school, its as good as you make it. Go there to fly, study and enjoy yourself!

If you want to know anything else about my time at OFT go ahead and email me.

(and just for the record Winghouse anyday!!) :O

[BA123]

hey guys just wandering but what is the winghouse ??? and also what else is there to do if you have spare time in the evenings ?

[Crosswind Limits]

If you go to OFT you must go to Winghouse! I was there a few years ago, got the T-shirt and saw the tasty chicks!!;)

[Brian304]

I currently only just finished training over in OFT. I thought that the instructors and facilities there are top class. But they do try and get you to hand as much money as they can from you. They increased the prices when I was halfway through my PPL, which was quite a pain in the ass. But even the BCAU students there which was a big bunch with cabair doing there degree was fed up with OFT taking all there money. Even one of my friends that I studied with over there with, he's now changed to oxford instead of cabair because of that. Its lucky I had some extra money with me. But be careful with the small writing. The flying availability is good over there, the instructors, the crew, even the CFI andrew is a real cool guy, any questions just ask him, he'll always be happy to help. Also moreg the dispatcher is a real nice person aswell dispatching the planes. I personlly wouldn't want to return there because they try and ripp you off by taking more money and changing prices halfway, also by not keeping to there advertised price, but with so many friendly crew and people there, i'm happy to go back. The accomodation is great aswell, but becareful theres always thunderstorms in the afternoon everyday, but apart from that the flying weather is always very good. But just renemeber to bring more money, cause you'll really definetaly need it. But overall the the fleet and crew is very good, even though i got restricted on my building hours without going into class B airspace cause I didn't have an FAA restricted PPL straight after I got my license. But its good there you can go and visit the mouse in disneyworld which is fun, and also nice good restraunts there. Anyway i'll be back there next summer for my JAA ME CPL anyway. So hope to see anyone who is going there soon anyway, don't hesitate to contact me.

BRI ^^

[cheesycol]

Thought OFT was vey good for what they offered - but do stay on top of your account, as it is easy (whether by accident or otherwise) for the company to charge you full rate without discounting to any special pre-booked rate that you may have arranged.

I did my hour building, CPL and night rating out there Aug '05 and had a great time with good instruction and passed in min hours - thanks Ray and Stuart!

Was examined by Keygrip - a top examiner, and keen to put you at ease before your test. Am now flying a jet for a fairly large UK airline, and loving it. The hard work is worth it in the end! I do miss the x-country's to Key West, Venice, Miami etc though. And the Winghouse is a must, or the British Pub over the road that serves a reasonable Stella!

[P.Dakota]

Hi, i'm new to this website. hello to all fellow aspiring pilots :]

I'm currently doing my JAA PPL here in the UK [blackbushe aviation, surrey] i have about 20hrs C152 and am about to start my exams. After passing my PPL I am planning to further my training outside the UK to the issuance of a JAA Frozen ATPL. I'm really looking to talk to anyone who has taken the same path that I am planning to, and also info on schools in the US. I was looking strongly into Orlando Flight Training at Kissemmee, FL but I have heard some bad reviews with regards to bookings/plane condition/hidden costs and also that they have only started the ATPL courses this month.

I obviously have a lot to learn and research before embarking on anything, so any information will be useful.

regards, Peter

email: [email protected]

[KandiFloss]

Keygrip - is your name Paul or Andrew ... give me a clue?!

PP

[Jinkster]

I did my PPL, Night Rating, Hour Build and Multi rating out there....

Well....had a great time, interesting and fantastic students. Staff not too bad - could have been worse, could have been better!

Enjoy

How do Crosswind Limits (met him out at OFT) :ok:

[captain_rossco]

HI THERE,

WILL BE ATTENDING OFT FOR 8 WEEKS (PPL/MULTI/HOURBUILD/IMC etc) AS OF DECEMBER 1ST 2006 ,WILL ANYBODY BE THERE AT THE SAME TIME.? I'M ALSO A LITTLE CONFUSED AS TO HOW THE PAYMENT STRUCTURE WILL WORK ONCE THERE, I'VE BEEN TOLD OF BASIC COSTS +FUEL +EXAMS +KITCHEN SINK etc, IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE I SHOULD BE AWARE OF AS I DONT WISH TO BE CAUGHT OFF GUARD!

REGARDS

ROSSCO:confused:

[BA123]

just wandering rossco but in terms of paying for the course are you paying as you go or all at once ?

BA123

[captain_rossco]

it seems the best rate is available paying up front, presumably one can keep a tight handle on an your account once over there? Your thoughts sir?
:confused:

[Barry.L]

does anyone know of a good flight school in the us or canada where i can get JAA ATPL. I was looking into Orlanda Flight Training does anyone have any coments about them?
Tanx

[KandiFloss]

Hi all!

I would recommend OFT as I didn't have any major problems with them, and if I had a problem then they would sort it out for me. Andrew (previous chief examiner) was extremely helpful. I know of a couple of people who had grumbles about OFT for various reasons, but the majority of people were happy with OFT's services and I was glad that I chose OFT for my PPL. I did go over budget, $2000 ... which I was a bit miffed about, but i'm sure that everyone goes over budget in flying, it's an expensive game. It took me 5 weeks to get my PPL (first time pass :) ), and that included having a couple of days off just to chill, which I would recommend as it helps to have a break now and again. When I arrived at OFT I started my PPL in a C152, but I didn't get on with it so I changed onto the Cadet (PA 28) which was much better to fly, and I would recommend training in it.

The instructors were good, and they were all approachable. 'Bobby' and Herman even went out of their way to help me when I wasn't even their student, which says what great guys they were :ok:. In total, I ended up flying with 7 instructors, which I think may have hampered my progress a bit (my main grumble), as at seemed as though every instructor had a different way of carrying out manouvers, etc. I would also recommend that wherever you are thinking of doing your PPL/further training to make sure you know how to carry out the manouvers/proceedures that you need for your skills test. I was only taught how to do a short-field take-off/ how to use a VOR (to get a position-fix) two days before my skills test, as my first instructor (now left) omitted to teach me.

So, as I have said, I would recommend them, and I would consider them for further training, so I think that says it all really?

PP

PS. In response to the previous threads about OFT, and not paying up front, a friendly warning ... if you don't pay for the whole course up front (as I found out) they won't let you train.

[scroggs]

PS. In response to the previous threads about OFT, and not paying up front, a friendly warning ... if you don't pay for the whole course up front (as I found out) they won't let you train.

Then don't go. I'm serious; if the school insists you pay up front, without using an escrow account to protect you if they go bust, you deserve to lose all your money - as several wannabes have done in the past. The list of bankrupt flight schools is long and dispiriting - and, as a customer, you are last in the line when it comes to distribution of the remaining assets.

Do not do it. Sod how good the school is, NEVER PAY UP FRONT!

Is that clear enough?

Scroggs

[captain_rossco]

To the point and very much appreciated Mr Scroggs, have spoken to OFT and they will accept broken payments.

Greatful as ever PPRUNE,

Rossco:ok:

[Brian304]

Hey just wondered if andrew the CFI has left OFT?, as I think he was a top class examiner and CFI even though I did have a few problems with him at first with me breaking nav lights e.t.c haha. But guess overall he was a good guy. Also about the payments to OFT I still have a good $5000 left over there damn, going to leave it till my CPL comes in the summer. But can someone tell me whats happened to OFT so far?

Thanks

BRIAN304:p

[ridinggirl]

i did my ppl there about 4 years ago and have just come back from 60hrs hour building. they have a handfull 152's very old and i had a few tech probs with them, they have gps. they have several warriors etc and a few c172's-very nice with auto pilot etc only couple years old also with gps!

very nice and friendly people.

xx

[ridinggirl]

oh yeah and andrew quit last week got a comercial flying job.
there is a new jaa examiner there now also.
x

[Brian304]

Good, i'm happy for him, the job he deserved at last. Great bloke, did my PPL with him in the summer. I've heard about the bad things they do to there CFI's they don't want there. But anyway no more comments on that. So whos the new JAA examiner? Does paul still do the CPL there?

Brian304:ok:

[KandiFloss]

Then don't go. I'm serious; if the school insists you pay up front, without using an escrow account to protect you if they go bust, you deserve to lose all your money - as several wannabes have done in the past. The list of bankrupt flight schools is long and dispiriting - and, as a customer, you are last in the line when it comes to distribution of the remaining assets.

Do not do it. Sod how good the school is, NEVER PAY UP FRONT!

Is that clear enough?

Scroggs

Ok ... so what happens then if you get get out there, ie. to OFT having paid for your flights/visa/tsa/course deposit and then they say to you, "We won't let you train until you have paid for the course up front" ... they have you over a barrel. Have you ever been in that situation Mr Scroggs?

[KandiFloss]

FAO:Chris (user name - not given)

To answer your qu's, I went directly to OFT not through Cabair. Thanks for that information and advice, I will take it on board!
PP

[scroggs]

PilotPrincess YOU are the customer, not the school. You have the money and they have to earn it. They are not doing you a favour, you are doing them one by choosing their school. If they can't get to grips with that concept, walk away and don't turn back. There are plenty of schools who do understand the concept of 'customer service', and no-one to whom you are paying several (possibly tens of) thousands of pounds ever has you over a barrel, it is quite the reverse; remember that.

Scroggs

[Mercenary Pilot]

Spot on Scroggs! :D

It shocks me how many FTO and students fail to understand it!

[Tinstaafl]

Many of us on PPRuNe say it time and time again: Don't pay large amounts up front unless it's into an escrow account or equivalent! Although I think paying small amounts up front is a reasonable compromise. Say, not more than a few grand but never more than you're prepared to lose if/when the school shuts shop.

I've lost track of the number of schools that have gone belly up. Australia, UK, USA, you name the place it makes no difference. The students and staff are nearly always the last to know, in many cases only finding out when they arrive for lessons or work and find the doors locked.

There are schools where paying it all up front would be OK for the period of your training. Trouble is you have no way of knowing which schools are which. You certainly don't have the option of auditing their books or discerning the owner's intentions.

I can only repeat the US's (futile) anti-drugs mantra: "Just say no." As Scroggs so rightfully said, if the school won't compromise then go elsewhere! They're the ones begging for *your* money. You are not the one begging for their services. You can *always* go elsewhere. Just as much as asking about their rates, aircraft availability etc it's important to ascertain payment options. A requirement to pay large amounts up front should raise a very large red flag about choosing that school.

[chrisbl]

Ok ... so what happens then if you get get out there, ie. to OFT having paid for your flights/visa/tsa/course deposit and then they say to you, "We won't let you train until you have paid for the course up front" ... they have you over a barrel. Have you ever been in that situation Mr Scroggs?

It is not too difficult either to transfer to another immigration approved school that wants to play fair either. They would be more than delighted to help you through the process. Its in their interests too. At least they know they are getting a customer who is not prepared to be a scmuck.

Do a search here on Pprune because a number of people have explained how to move schools if things dont work out.

For others ask the question before you sign up with them how they expect payment to be done. If you dont like it dont go with them.

A good flying school is more than just good instruction. Its good admin, good aircraft the whole lot. Corners cut in one area indicates corners cut elsewhere, it stands to reason.

I find it strange that aviation is one of the activities where its customers are expected to fork out several thousand of pounds to be treated like sh!t by pompous (sometimes crooked) and overbearing suppliers.

Is it any wonder GA is dying.

[KandiFloss]

It is not too difficult either to transfer to another immigration approved school that wants to play fair either. They would be more than delighted to help you through the process. Its in their interests too. At least they know they are getting a customer who is not prepared to be a scmuck.



Well, it's ok for you to sit there in your nice comfy home/office etc, to say that, but I was in Florida (my first time to the States) and Jean Pierre (Sales Manager/whatever) said to me in no uncertain terms that if I decided that I didn't want to do the course then he would cancel my visa. I now think that he was being an *******. My husband (an airline pilot) is furious about how I was treated. I feel pretty vexed now about Jean-Pierre's attitude.

By the way Chrisbl, don't call me a schmuck, you don't even know me and AT LEAST I CAN SPELL.

[mcgoo]

Well, it's ok for you to sit there in your nice comfy home/office etc, to say that, but I was in Florida (my first time to the States) and Jean Pierre (Sales Manager/whatever) said to me in no uncertain terms that if I decided that I didn't want to do the course then he would cancel my visa. I now think that he was being an *******. My husband (an airline pilot) is furious about how I was treated. I feel pretty vexed now about Jean-Pierre's attitude.

By the way Chrisbl, don't call me a schmuck, you don't even know me and AT LEAST I CAN SPELL.


Did you not ask them about their payment terms as part of your research before you went?

[chrisbl]

PilotPrincess If I wanted to call you a schmuck I would have been more explict like "PP what a schmuck you are".

But as a general point dont do abroad what you would not dream of doing at home.

You would not seriously hand over a few thousand pounds to a complete stranger to build say a conservatory onto your house.

So why do the same with aviation especially in a foreign country.

One rule I have which always comes in handy weather its a plumber I am thinking of engaging or even a flying school. The first lie is always the last lie and any relationship ends. I had a builder quote once who claimed to be in a particular trade body so I looked it up and he was not. So he was out, (claimed he ade a mistake- yeh it was on his headed paper) the first lie is the last lie. I am afraid you have to ask questions which you can verify to find out whether they lie.

Applies to same to flying schools. When you cannot visit them ie they are 2000 miles away extra care is needed. Watch out for bogus or tame references too.

[GlobalOrbiter]

Hi ChrisBL, PilotPrincess, Tinstaafl and all the other 'never-pay-up-front' crusaders out there! :)

I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that we generally understand and agree with you. Yet so many people keep bringing up the question over and over again. The (otherwise brilliant) permanent training-advisory thread already has information about the "why", but not the "how" and I think this is where the problem lies: How would an alternative pay-plan be organised? How does escrow-accounts work, how to agree total-price but still pay in chunks, etc. etc.

Also: -Why I think this is causing so much dilemma for so many people:

1) If there is a 'complete package price to PPL' pre-pay sum (perhaps even including free re-tests if necessary) then people are likely to feel; "As long as the school doesn't suddenly shut down, I can pre-calculate the end price of getting my license." Hence, then the only (!) risk they take is that of the school going bust, but otherwise feel comfortable with knowing a fixed-sum cost to license.

2) If instead they embark on a 'pay-as-you-go' scheme, I think alot of people feel they might take the risk of the school insisting on lots of extra training towards the end, needed or not. Basically the old "yeah mate, you're almost ready but we feel that you should take a few more hours (extra money) before we book you for the final test". Scary situation...

Again, I am happy to be wrong, please tell me if you see other posibilities. But from the looks of it; escrow-accounts, and other 'not-everything-in-advance' solutions only seem to protect us if the whole school goes bust, it doesn't protect against the costs growing (but could even cause them to!) during training. Am I right here?

Naturally, the best solution would probably be to get a total-price agreed and then still only pay smaller amounts in advance, say; 33,33,34 (%) or so just before starting each new week. Not sure if this is possible, never heard of anyone being able to do it for a PPL.

Again, thanks for a great Forum and have a nice weekend!
/GO

[Brian304]

Well Just an opinion but I doubt that OFT will go bust as cabair has shares in it, and cabair is a very big company. But anyway there are chances that they will go bust, but hopefully my left over $5000 there for my CPL will still be safe when I go back haha.

Brian304:ok:

[lilpilot]

Anyone starting the ATPL Residential Ground School at OFT in December?
Anyone around from the October class? (did it start at all?) What are your impressions? Would like to hear from you.

[PPL152]

I have a JAA PPL, and I'm intending to go to OFT for JAA Multi-Engine CPL.

Does anyone recommend me to do the FAA IR with OFT, then convert it with Cabair to JAA IR. I have info that it is cheaper like that.:confused:

[gernie]

Hi, Im spanish guy desperate triying to find a school in US wich provide JAA training or courses for international students up to 1000h flying time, without do any conversion. Thats a very important point. As i dont live in the US is very difficult to choose the proper schoold cos I have no idea how they are.. I just can see the webs and nothing else. So could anyone give me a hand? Please anyone knows any? any recommendation or suggestion? I´ve been looking around European Fligth Training and Orlando Fligth Training. This both offer 1500h JAA courses. Someone who has been training in any of those?
Thank you very much guys.

PS: I will appreciate any honest opinion.

[BlueRobin]

I have info that it is cheaper like that

Hardly, the accommodation over there and the conversion course over here will soon burn up any savings. Plus aiui you have to undergo a rigourous oral exam for the FAA IR and not a multiguess paper a la JAA :)

There are no full JAA IR courses in the US.

[PPL152]

Hardly, the accommodation over there and the conversion course over here will soon burn up any savings. Plus aiui you have to undergo a rigourous oral exam for the FAA IR and not a multiguess paper a la JAA :)
There are no full JAA IR courses in the US.


So what would you recommend for IR? Doing it in the UK in the first place, or is it better in Spain, cost-wise?

Many thanks.

[KingKongPilot]

I see many threads on this forum asking about flight training in Florida. As a flight instructor that used to be employed by them I think I could share a fair evalutaion.
All the school cares about is your money. That is the bottom line and from that stems a majority of other problems. There are some things that they advertise to you which you have to look at carefully. If you look at the breakdown of required times for a certificate or rating (specifically FAA), they advertise 10 hours of solo time in a simulator for the instrument training and 20 hours of solo time in a FRASCA 142 simulator. YOU CANNOT LOG SOLO TIME IN A SIMULATOR. You cannot log any time in a flight training device unless an instructor is there. A flight training device does not even count toward TOTAL time. It only counts towards a certificate or rating.
There have been many instances of an airplanes airworthiness being questionable. When an airplane has a discrepancy, you write it down on a discrepancy logbook. The airplane cannot be flown until the discrepancy has been resolved. The school, in an effort to keep the airplane flying throughout the day, would allow the mechanics to make an entry on the discrepancy log that "No Defects" were noted. This would place the aircraft back in service "ON PAPER". The problem hadn't been fixed though. The next student to fly the airplane would see the same problem. This is highly unlawful and more importantly, NOT SAFE!!
One other thing to beware of is the cost for certain items. If you look on the webpage for the cost of the medical exam they have it listed as $100.00 dollars. In on instance it is listed as costing $400.00 dollars. The cost of the higest Class of a US medical (First Class) only costs about $70.00 at the most. The school pockets the rest of the money without justification. Call some FAA examiners to get some prices and you'll see what I mean. There was a time when a group of university students came for their PPL's. The owner of the flight school picked them up from the airport and brought them to the school. It would have been nice of him to do so if he hadn't charged each of the 5 students almost $80.00 for the ride. It would have cost less to take a cab. He pocketed almost $400.00 dollars!
I've said all that to say this....if you choose to go to OFT to do your flight training, KEEP AN EYE ON YOUR FINANCIAL ACCOUNT AND JUSTIFY EVERY DOLLAR SPENT!! If it seems unreasonable then remember, there is always a cheaper alternative. ALSO KEEP AN EYE ON THE AIRWORTHINESS OF YOUR AIRPLANE. Unfortunately for most of you, you have no idea what is required by law to be airworthy. If you are unsure, ask a flight instructor, or better yet call the Flight Standards District Office (FAA). Make sure all the required inspections and maintenance items have been taken care of before you go flying and put a chain on your wallet. Most of all, enjoy yourself while you are learning to fly.

[Vone Rotate]

Ive read all those posts but im after loacl info more than anything. I think each person will have there own experiance and views. I'm planning to take it as I find it and try to enjoy my training and my first step to being an airline pilot.

The way I look at it is of course they are only interested in your money to a certain point, after all it is a business and thats what they are there to do 'take your money' but as long as I get treated fairly and come home in one piece:ok: with my JAA PPL i'll be well chuffed:) !!

[WMB]

I did my ME CPL skills test at OFT in November, and found them very helpful. My training was all done at MFC in Canada, but then the weather broke and was unable to take my skills test there. As OFT is also associated with Cabair i phoned them. The man i spoke to was Andrew Mclaird, who at short notice arranged my skills test and accomodation, he was very helpful and had me finished within a matter of days.I thought that this was more than fair, after not doing my training with them.Their prices seem to be average, and their aircraft seem to be the same as most flight schools i have ever been to.A word of caution, do not under any circumstances get on the wrong side of Morag in despatch, keep that in mind and you should enjoy your time there !

[MrSonnyman]

Greetings,

I've had two visits to OFT and both had issues. The first was my cross country requirements for the FAA IR was insufficient due to an error on my part. For the FAA ticket, flight time can only qualify as cross country if it involves a landing (even just a T & G) at an airport a minimum of 50nm from the starting point. My Instructor, Jean Pierre and the then Chief pilot Dirk helped me to complete a mini hour-building program within my course to help me walk away with the Rating achieved. Although it was my fault for not checking the finer points mentioned on the website, all was sorted. It's also best to keep a close eye on your account. One issue of being charged for somebody else's tuition was very quickly sorted with a humble apology from the front desk. Thank You Wanda.

The second was for the FAA CPL. The Qualifying cross country was not valid for the skills test because of the clause requiring a landing at an airport at least 250 nm from the original point of departure. Again, it was most likely myself who was to blame for not checking, however in my defence, my flight which included a 250nm-plus leg (ie south to KVRB, North to KTLH and back to KVRB via KISM and then back to KISM) was approved by my instructor . It did not qualify since at no point was I more than 250nm from KISM. A very annoying technicality given by my Flight Examiner was that had I stopped for the night at KVRB (Or even landed before midnight and departed after midnight!!)on my first visit during this flight, all would have been OK. OFT were very apologetic and tried to help but I had one day to go and the thunderstorms would not allow me to complete this flight that afternoon and I had to walk away empty handed on that occasion. I have been offered 'block rates' and discounted student housing for the completion of this course which the School doesn't have to do, but it's a very nice gesture of goodwill as well as a very helpful action to complete what I went to do.

I do intend to go back since I am impressed by the way they do help when things do go wrong. Also Morag on despatch owes me twenty lashes for not closing a VFR flight plan on time(!) I was told that on that occasion that the issue was quickly resolved by a quick 'phone call from the Tower and that to be mindful that Search and Rescue may be involved if it happens again. That was it, a good piece of constructive criticism in the form of an unofficial rollocking. Also, Pat Denton is teaching me the finer points of playing American Football.

I have to agree with the last post that sometimes things do go wrong, but by speaking to the right people and from my past experiences I don't think that there is much that cannot be corrected. The 'extra curricular activities' of joining fellow students and instructors alike at the Winghouse (as well as other grubhouses) was a delightful addition to the visits to Kissimmee even though my wife has barred me from visiting the Winghouse. I think she had a problem with me being served by well-endowed waitresses wearing skimpy black swimsuits.

On the whole, do your homework, keep to your mission and keep an eye on your account. Any issues at all, raise them with fellow students, Your Instructor, Jean Pierre, or even the delightful Ms Jessica Roldan. Nicely said, Mr (or Ms) Hobbit1983.

[aviat179]

Hi everyone,

I've read the forum on OFT but want to know more about the JAA training on offer at the school, specifically the Pro-Pilot course.

- What is the JAA Groundschool like?

- How people found coming back to the UK to convert their FAA Single IR to a JAA Multi IR?

- The pros and cons of the Pro-Pilot course in general?

Thanks in advance.

[LostAndFound]

i am due to start at oft in the next two weeks. please is any body out there at oft aat the moments to tell me more about the school, state of a/cs and life at orlando.A PM will do.
cheers

[BigAl's]

People,

any experiences wrt hour building at this school? (thats JUST hour building), ala, what are the a/c like, do they let you take the a/c away over night, that sort of stuff! :)

Thanks again, regards to all,:ok:

bigals

[davidathomas42]

Make sure you take out the extra insurance, was $100 for the year when I was there,, i friend of mine went recently and was not told about it and had an accident with an aircraft fire and it cost him about £1500 I think!!!! he was not told about the insurance thing which was a bit wrong, but I dont know the full details of it.

also AOPA can supply you with renters insurance and legal cover, well worth the $50ish it costs, especialy in a game where your renting $50k machines on a daily basis.

as for taking aircraft overnight, they did when I was there, but you had to book a few days in advance so they can work the shedual and also they had a min daily hour requirement, but not a problem if you going somewhere like the keys and staying overnight and flying back the next afternoon once sober!!! lol

last bit if advice,, CHECK YOUR RATES AND RECIPTS!!!!! its easy to lose $$$$ with out noticeing when hour building.

[flyerfly]

Hey it's me BG from OFT. I taught there from May 2006 through Oct 2006. If there are any students out there perhaps from BCUC or what not that are interested in comming back to the states hit me up sometime. Perhaps a night on the town is doable. My email address is my full name kinda like this ***jaming****[email protected] You fill in the blanks. Hope to hear from some of you!

[First.officer]

onefatpilot - you must have really caught him on an "off" day, my dealings with JP, i found him to be a great guy, bent over backwards to help me and me and fellow friends spent many an evening in the company of JP and staff from OFT and had a great time - in fact, looking forward to getting back out sometime soon to catch up with them all !!

[KandiFloss]

Ditto as above OneFatPilot and BenAek. Was considering doing my CPL there, but not now after the way JP threatened to cancel my visa if I went to another flying school. What a :mad: !

[SD.]

As far as I'm aware, the school cannot cancel nor refuse to transfer visa's. I advise anyone in this situation to contact the local INS.

[captain_rossco]

See above, honestly.

Regards

Rossco

[BackPacker]

SD, as a temporary student you've got an M-1 visa. Such a visa is "sponsored" by a specific training organization, whether it's a university or a flight school. You cannot train at any other facility on such a visa. In fact, the organization that sponsors your M-1 visa is actually listed under "annotation" on the visa itself. (And yes, I did get my passport out to check that!)

So technically if you start training with another facility on your current M-1 visa you're in breach of your visa regulations. There's two ways this can be handled:
- The school is not cooperating with you, for whatever reason. In this case they have every right (and maybe even an obligation under TSA rules) to report YOU to the INS. Who will probably fine you, cancel your visa altogether and then deport you.
- The school is cooperating with you. In which case they can probably act as some sort of intermediary between you and your "new" flight school in such a way that technically you're still training at your old school, but the old school buys whatever services they need for you from the "new" school.

I'm not too sure about the obvious third way: You could try and contact the INS yourself, see if you can get your visa changed to another flight school. But I don't know if the INS allows this.

Whether the school wants to cooperate is probably up, to a large extent, to your own attitude towards the school, and the reason for switching. But switching schools, as a foreign student, is not an automatic right under the terms of your M-1 visa. And in certain cases, in the heat of an argument, the school may just use that against you, to "encourage" you to sit out the contract that you signed with them for instance.

So before everybody starts judging OFT (or any other school) badly because somebody was "threatened with deportation", I'd like to know the circumstances under which that happened. I, for one, had no problems with them. And when the weather threatened to upset my exam schedule seriously, they were very cooperative in letting me find a solution to do my exams at another school. (In the end that solution was never required. The weather got better in the nick of time.)

[waffs]

If you decide to transfer to a different school, OFT, or any flight school for that matter just has to transfer your visa over to the other school. This can be done in a matter of minutes and I know for a fact that OFT have done it before. The student is issued with a new I-20 with the name of the new school on it.

[BackPacker]

Good. But I expect that you've got to talk to the school AND to the INS first, before you start training at that other school. And nobody is legally required to cooperate. So if you ruin the relationship with either of them, they might just not want to help you.

So, still, I'd like to know what happened before someone was "threatened with deportation".

Also, does the INS issue a new visa as a matter of course, or do they require a more or less valid reason?

[BackPacker]

I "dealt" with JP sept-oct 2005 when I was there for a three-week PPL. But I only saw him once, I think, when I arrived at the school and he showed me around, went over the paperwork with me and such. I did not have any serious problems while being there, so I never needed to speak to him at any time.

I was there when the new chief pilot (Simon something) came on board and I found him a nice chap, easy to work with. The few problems I had were solved to my satisfaction, eventually, by him.

[Sean H]

Im thinking of doing the JAA pro-pilot course there next october! anyone else going?

[captain_rossco]

"Anyone heading to HAI in the near future?
What courses you doing??
I'll be over there soon enough doing JAA/FAA CPL and FAA CFI!:ok:"
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=2973569)


I thought you were off to do your helicopter licenses Sean?

[Sean H]

Ya := Im going to HAI alright, just to do a PPL H though...Have decided that airline career is best for a few years first then move into Commercial choppers....

Who here has done the JAA ATPL ground school at OFT and how did you get on?
Cheers for replys
Sean :ok:

[davidathomas42]

I heard somewhere that all flight schools are money grabbing whores! so just watch your wallet with them all!

I have used 6 flight schools for training and rental in my 4 and a half years flying now and 5 of them were very good! not going to say who the 6th was that I was dissapointed at! ;-)

[stevehudd]

Well i arrived there for some hour building and a rating this year and what can i say?

Well to start off with...

People on here always say "oh you can move schools if you don't like them"

Which is all well and good but when it came the time for me who was frustrated with flyoft to change schools they say oh well we keep 25% of what money you have given us.

Note: you have to pay all upfront which they tell you once you have arrived.

Do not go for the cessna 150/152s, I overheard the tower on several occasions - moaning at the students in a positive way that the mechanics should have fixed that engine yesterday and not to send it up again, that was twice while i was flying, then you have the radio failures that they just say "well they weren't using it properly" and they just put something in the mx log so they don't have to do it.

Oh JP well he's a car salesman after 1 thing and doesn't tell you where the savings can be made.

On a Positive note:

Morag : Brilliant person - she got stressed because of the way things were run and has sadly left there.

Denise : lovely

And all the others eg. instructors were great

Try Flight safety, even though they don't do JAA

[chrisbl]

Saya a lot about Cabair who are partners with OFT.

[Lele.ciccio]

Is there someone to the OFT for PRO-PILOT COURSE (JAA) that will begins in July?

Someone knows about OFT Housing?

Thank's and Bye

[count dingleberry]

my advice would be to stay away from ANY Jaa Atpl Groundschool in the states...........:=

with so many options to do it in Europe and the prices being pretty much the same, I dont see any reason to go to a different continent with inferior training and risking being stuck up s**t creek without a paddle.....

just a thought

[davidathomas42]

I did the aptl's twice, first with cabair residentail, got totaly confused had no clue and pulled out half way through.

tried again 2 years later with London Met, great teachers great class but from inside knowage of someone ahead of me in the course they said use the online bristol question bank in the evening and pay attention in class

I recon without any class work just doing the online bristol I would still have passed as easyly as I did 2nd time round, bristol is gospal!

3rd, atpl's at OFT, hmmmm,,, would rather slam my co*k in a car door than do that, I spend 2years there and in all fairness from MY! expericance which can be different to others, they dont know there arse from there elbow, and are just a cash monster looking to dry your bank account out before you leave, if you get your ratings then its just a bonus.

I would rather tear my passport up than do the atpls there, just think how many schools there are in the UK that are still perfecting there atpl ground school and have been at it many many years, no way after 6months thee set up for it,, no way no how!

[count dingleberry]

Cpt. Relax,
my arguments are reading these posts here about OFT and myself having attended the OTHER legendary Groundschool in Florida......:{

I am not saying that all Groundschools in Europe are good, there are most likely some really crappy ones over here too, but when you are in your own country or at least an EU state, getting completely screwed is less likely. Also, you have more options to get out compared to the US where you have to leave your balls in a basket before they let you pass through customs.........:ouch: Your "JAA UK approved flightschool" is fully aware of this...;)

[menikos]

Hello,

for those going there for the CPL conversion course (FAA ---> JAA) just stay away because they don't have instructors the only one available JAA is always busy, so if you don't want to waste your time & money look elsewhere.

The school by itself is good, people very nice generally speaking and don't need to talk about MOREG :mad: , maintenance is good and the guys doing it are very cool, but you are supposed to be trained by a JAA instructor not a FAA as good as he can be he's not JAA certified, philosophy is not the same.

In my case it was suppose to take not more than 10 days and at the end it was more than a month, too bad.

Bye.

[flyndad]

First of all let me offer some advice. Never pay a penny up front to any flightschool. As soon as they have your hard earned cash the service will probably go downhill rapidly.
You also have the risk of the school going under. Dont be bullied into this, make this your number one rule. If you have only flown for a couple of hrs and the service is non existent you can always move to another school.

[yoda1]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=212516

[scroggs]

I would like to remind you all that you may not use your anonimity to attack named individuals on Pprune. If you make any post that can be interpreted as libellous, they will be removed. Internet forums are not exempt from the laws of libel, and prosecutions of forum contributors have been successfully brought. As Pprune is not willing to be dragged into any such legal action (why should we be?), we will not let any post we consider to be of marginal legality remain on the board. If that means some good information goes in the bin, so be it.

Scroggs

[nosher]

Hello all!
Just a quick question, wondering if that Fat,Bald ground instructor is still teaching in Orlando Flight Training? Cant remember his name for the life of me?

[itsbrokenagain]

Oh dont be rude to steve, he is a good guy, sure he is a little on the cuddly side...but he does have some hair so calling him bald is just damn rude! As for his vertically challenged (height) problem.... well you can blame the milkman for the that one as his father is taller than him! But like the mods said there is no need for name calling, he is doing a good job with the limited 'tools' he is provided with, and people are passing first time which what really matter isnt it!

:eek:

[LostAndFound]

FLYINPTU,there are a couple of Indian Students there. They seem to be happy. You should enjoy it.

[wangus]

Is Andrew Mclaird still chief pilot there? Is Richard Tkaczuk still only JAR CPL instructor?
Thanks

[ric180880]

Yes he's still the chief pilot, I was there in April and the only CPL instructor was Prudence Ruzucka - she was very good and I really enjoyed being instructed by her.

[wannabe there]

I know people are getting a bit tired of newbies like me asking questions about flight schools however I have used the search tool trying to find info on the above and all I ever seem to find is "do a search for them"!!:ugh:

Little bit tired of chasing my own tail now, so just wondered if anyone could please either point me in the right direction of where these threads are on here(please include links!) or let me know what your experiences were.

Many thanks!

[captain_rossco]

sticky at the top of the threads page.

[wannabe there]

Had a look and I can not see anything about OFT.... can you post or PM me the link? :ok:

[dom462]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=212516

[Adios]

Umm...I don't think that's the correct link...unless poor seat pitch OFT's fault?

[wannabe there]

umm yeah, I was a bit confused about that as well!! Oh well, have now been advised by a few other people to avoid the place but thanks for ya help anyway

[Borntoflywillfly]

Hey guys

Just asking for your opinions basically. I am currently looking at flying schools to undertake training all the way through to a frozen ATPL. Ive been looking at Oxford and Jerez and i am about to book assessments t both. However i have been lately looking at OFT partly due to shorter training time and the cheaper costs.

What are your opinions on taking th OFT route? Anyone done the course out there? Would airlines prefer Oxford or Jerez?

Any Help greatly appreciated!

[menikos]

Right now OFT is not the place to look for, a lot of indians in training + 2 broken planes and a lot of delay in the training.

[itsbrokenagain]

Plus the fat bald man is going back to flying and wont be there any more soon!

[PAJ]

If you can afford Oxford/ FTE, go for them no question!! The key thing to look at is who has managed to gain the most employment for their students in the UK and OAT and FTE would win by miles in that context. That said, you pay well in excess of £70k for the privilege which is out of reach for a great deal of people.

I only did my PPL and NR at OFT about a year ago now and I must say I was fairly impressed, although transition from US airspace back to the UK is bloody difficult of you only know US procedures and have only used US RT. I guess that is fairly dependent on the individual though. I found that I saved probably close to £2k on my PPL having done it in the states (some of that offset by having 2 1/2 hrs dual conversion when I returned to the UK) but still a good deal. The accommodation was fine (in fact I was pretty chuffed with it - we had a pool and tennis court which was great after a long day at the airport and the rooms were a good size and well furnished. My instructor was pretty good - she was perhaps letting me get away with errors she should have jumped on but other than that, she got me through fine. I flew the 152 and had no real problems there - the warriors at the time were very busy but I managed to get booked in everyday at least once on the cessna. They were ... shall we say rickety, but had plenty of character! I could have paid another couple of grand and flown in the lovely 172 S models but I was on a budget. The ground school teaching in all honesty was a bit of a shambles - not that useful, but the confuser and my CBT stuff got me through all the exams. So all in all, I left pretty happy but I think I would prefer to train in the UK if I had the money.

However, I do know someone who is out there at the moment doing a bit of training who trained with me last year and he says it has definitely gone downhill a bit - a few too many aircraft going tech and not enough instructors. This is only secondary source though so don't take it as is necessarily - just make sure you do lots of research! With OFT, general advice is budget to spend at least 10-15% more than quoted and allow more time that stated. If you allow for this, you shoudn't find yourself under too much pressure.

I am getting through the Single Engine phase of my commercial training now with an excellent institution who operate as closely to an airline operation as they can and I much prefer it this way - there is pressure to achieve certain things in a certain amount of air time with little room to play with but my flying has improved already quite a bit and I find myself preparing a lot more on the ground before going up. I think you would see something closer to this at OAT/ FTE and that might be preferential to you. It's all individual at the end of the day - the money you save could allow you to get a type rating and be more employable that way.

[wangus]

Borntoflywillfly. Check your personal messages. Happy to go into detail.

[jstolli]

i used to work there and ill tell you NOT TO GO. this place is all about takung your money...many times i was forced to take a student on a "review" flight numerous times before skills test even though the student was ready...

many broken airplanes and being forced to fly them

dont do it

[jstolli]

how applaud you for putting up with prudence...

that place is going to hell in a hand basket...

unless A.M chief has cooled his jets

[hijack]

wouldn't suggest OFT. bad reputation of with the overcrowded school. they had too many accidents and incidents.

[scruffy1973]

standards and customer service have dropped since oft moved from there old base to the white shed at the end of the runway, too many indians and cabairs swanning around like they own the place, the access road is an accident awaitng to happen, too many students, too smaller maintenance, seems a lot of the more experienced instructors who were gonna stay, have recently gone (plane crashing?) and i believe poor Prudence is the JAA flight department on her own. it seems greed has entered into the equation and standards have dropped considerably. full marks to the place when i first went there last year, however its a fail now. one last thing....instruction has gone up, even more than the Naples schools and east coast schools, and thats for a zero hours instructor and FAA checkrides are $450 compared to $275 most other places......i never did get justification for the high cost and the high fail rate for first timers.

[funfinn2000]

Hello guys I used to work for OFT as a CFI on the Helicopter side and I did have an interest in the Fixed wing side and I noticed the staff where good and you do get what you pay for. There is not one school in the USA that everything runs smoothly in and if there was the price would double. So enjoy where-ever go.

[cjuk28]

Hi all
any comments on oft.
am going out in oct already have jaa imc rating am going for the faa ir, hour building atpl ground school and the cpl me at the end

anybody been out there and please let me know your opinions
CJ

[CloudPilot]

What did they quote you for all that? Double the money and the time frame, then give yourself a surcharge of five percent then another one of ten on top of that and add some tax to it and you'll get it done.

[wangus]

Don't go. You'll be lucky to find anything positive about the place. Been there. Trust us.

[Krishka]

Don't go! Been there this summer for two months! Lots of hidden fees, price increased for instructors WITHOUT notice. One of the very annoying things there is that for the FAA training they had only one very "unfriendly" examiner. My SE IR skill test with this guy was the most unpleasent flight ever (I passed the skill test the first time).

If you want to go, double your planned money, add 20% extra and buy an open plane ticket.

I wish I knew about this forums before I transfered my money to OFT.

Good luck!

[Props Forward]

JP - Overpromises and under delivers "We'll get ya done!:D" - No we won't get ya done...... ever

Mclaird - Deserves to take a lesson in customer service and how to talk to people properly without letting his ego come into it - jumped up t*at:rolleyes:

[ridinggirl]

hi
i go every 2 years to oft to fly my 12 hours for my license, also with a mate we do 24 hours flying in totall and used to fly the c152's but we had a few problems with them such as fuel not being taken from 1 wing, engine starter motor going and being stuck at cedar key for 4 hours while waiting to be rescued!
but generally we have had no other probs and are going out on thursday to get 24hours in but flying the c172sp this time.
vikki

[Props Forward]

Sounds not a good environment for learning:=

[Sam Rutherford]

Friends are mid-way through a ppl course with OFT. There are areas that are not 'perfect' but on the whole they are very happy. Two on aeroplane JAA and one on rotary FAA.

Will post again once course is complete!

Sam.

[WMB]

Just returned from OFT, renewed my MEIR with them last week, had no problems, found them very good. What i would say is this, all flight training organisations have problems, not just OFT. It very easy to log on to PPRUNE and whine about your bad experience, but what you need to do is talk to JP or Andrew, in a plesant manner and tell them your problem. What is most important, is your flight training, anything that distracts you from putting your whole effort into this needs immediate attention. I have found from experience that most things can be sorted out through talking to those involved. Enjoy your training, it will be one of the most fun times of your life, and what seem like huge problems now, later on will seem only minor.

Good Luck To All!!

[Alltheway]

Hi All,

Starting the ATPL course Jan 08, just wondered if anyone else was starting at this time?

Would be good to share view's.

[AlphaMale]

I'm not but I'd be very interested in what you have to say for the course when you get out there.

However I did notice you have already done your PPL back in 2003? So I assume you have had a discount on the full price of $35,995? Are you doing the JAA ATPL Ground School out there over 25 weeks too or did you do it here in the UK i.e BGS?

Good luck.

[ueberflieger]

I am just back from OFT, and it is really a great place to fly, if

- you want to train real in flight emergencies :bored:
- train your negotiation skills :ugh:
- test your frustration tolerance :eek:
- spent more time and money as advertised :ouch:.

About the management has been written already at other places, I refer to the comments from Props Forward (30th September 2007), onefatpilot (4th April 2007, stevehudd (10th April 2007) KingKongPilot (26th November 2006) etc.

There have been quite a few incidents with the aircraft while I was there and it seems they haven’t learnt their lesson after this incident. Read the full story here http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20030910X01509&ntsbno=MIA03LA179&akey=1
You might say, that was in 2003, but in my opinion it is just a matter of time to the next serious incident. I was sent off with a broken engine, just back from maintenance (they cleared a spark plug but left the broken oil ring on the piston), had during this flight a radio failure and fumes coming from the panel (probably the radio). Fortunately I had insisted on a fire extinguisher prior to start, as the aircraft had none…

If you are really considering training there, just ask them two questions (in written!):
- How many students are training at OFT/Euroflight currently?
- How many instructors do you have under contract?
If you are keen, ask additionally about average times for going Solo, PPL etc…

Sure, they just want your best, what certainly is your money, so they found many ways in reaching this goal. For example their tiny pilot shop or their student accommodation. Have a look to this pictures:
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff305/dreampilot_photo/PB220061.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff305/dreampilot_photo/PB220059.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff305/dreampilot_photo/PB220058.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff305/dreampilot_photo/PB220060.jpg

Fortunately there is the free market, but consider your contract and deposit!

If you are from India, try to get a reference from an other student prior transferring your money. I heard they take advantage of the Alien Status in America along with its vulnerability, and the guys I have spoken to had all very hard times explaining prolonged and more expensive training and just hope to get their licence and forget the rest as quick as possible…

My summary: Do not FLYOFT! :=

[top-gun]

Hi Plinky,

I've changed my username from cmvidini. I'm heading out early to do PPL and IR before April's ATPL. Which date are you starting ATPL?

After all the planning and paperwork I can't wait for the day to arrive when I Fly out.

[Sam Rutherford]

I'm interested in your feedback.

Can you tell me what you hoped to achieve there, and what you actually achieved. Also perhaps what it actually cost in the end?

Thanks.

[MartynOConnor]

Is this the 1000hr Pro Pilot programme? If it is, how did you go about ensuring you'd be able to work as an FI in the US? What were the VISA/Work permit processes like?

[chris-squire]

Well this doens't sound too promising. I'm supposed to be going to OFT in the new year and was going to pay my deposit in the next couple of weeks. After reading all the above I'm not so sure! Anyone got any feedback on Moncton? Maybe a bit more expensive but no VISA needed and hopefully not so many god awful reports.

I do realise that there may be some good points to OFT but form what I'm reading it sound like a really expensive joke! :\

[Gav28]

It’s a bit of a lottery at the end of the day. I was there last summer just for a PPL, I have a few complaints but I did come back with my PPL. Although it was ok when I was there, It seemed to be on the decline. Many instructors were leaving to join airlines and the continual influx of Indian students was pushing the place well over capacity.
I expect you would get similar issues at other Florida schools though.
If you want more details PM me and I'll elaborate further on my experience.

[Alltheway]

Hi Plinky,

Have my Visa interview on the 4th so keep you posted. I've had one previously as I did my PPL(H) at OFT two years ago. Was fairly simple just have all the info requested and be prepared for long waits at the Embassy.

Are you doing PPL Theory study at the moment?

[Alltheway]

HI,

Sure i'll stay in contact. I'm doing the ATPL GS with OFT but probably purchase BS for evening study as this is Gospel.