Runway Lengths in the UK!!

[Lee@LPL]

As i am a keen aircraft spotter one thing that upsets me is the fact the runway length at some of U.K's regional airports is restricting growth. For example at my local airport is Liverpool and the thing that is stopping the airport from growing is the runway length. With roughly 2250 metres of available runway for takeoff's and landings the airports limited really to a fully loaded 757 or just possibly a 767. With LPL constantly being linked with east atlantic links with airlines such as continental and american i think that we are not seeing any developments due to the length of runway. Even Ryanair's 738's are running some restricted flights closing off the back few rows of some flights.
Whats everyone else's views on the matter at their local airports?
Regards Lee@LPL

[SeamusCVT]

My local airport is Coventry, hence my username, and, from a flyer's point of view, to be honest I am happy that there are only the smaller aircraft using it. These smaller aircraft mean that turn around times are that much quicker: less passengers = less time for embarking and disembarking, and less time to load and unload the bags.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see more 757s use the airport, which they have done several times when fully loaded (moreover I would love to be in a 757 from Coventry), however, I think that in such circumstances, the airlines need to be practical about their resources.

[runway14141414]

Local airport BHX, am almost afraid to mention our runway as feelings run high around the locals on this topic :uhoh: Basically it's too short and severley restricts long haul growth, even FCA moved their long haul charter up to NEMA for that reason. :{

[roverman]

Lee@LPL,

It's symptom of our small island - land is scarce unlike the USA where most airports have 3 or 4 runways 3000+ metres.

I work at MAN and even our two at 3050 / 3200 metres are shorter than many on the continent. LPLs 2292 metres is not bad and you have to consider than on the main departure direction (27) you climb out over the Mersey with no obstacle problems. Take-off weight of an aircraft is highly influenced by the 'clearway' beyond the runway and LPL is well-situated in this respect. There should be nothing to stop 767s going East Coast USA from LPL, after all they do from LTN with just 2160 metres.

[Lee@LPL]

Runway 141414141414......
Birmingham does have some large movements in comparison with LPL. You have Emirates sending a 777-200 or A330-300 and air india sending a 777-200 and all the large tour operators are using 767's to places such as mexico and florida etc.
LPL longest summer flight is to the canaries and turkey so you guys at BHX should count yourselves lucky!!!
Regards Lee@LPL

[mmeteesside]

Durham Tees Valley has almost 2291m, and we have had B747's off direct to Calgary, B767's regularly off to Qatar (recently)

mmeteesside

[WOWBOY]

My local airport PLH is buggered as the runway is way too short and if expanded it could become a succesful regonail airport.
Am I right to say that Plymouth is the biggest city in the UK wthout an international airport (well it is definatly one of them).

The Runway Length's at PLH are as follows:

06/24: 2,641 ft
13/31: 3,809 ft

[Lee@LPL]

so does that mean that plymouth would struggle to accomadate a 737?
what is the largest plane currently operating out of Plymouth?
Regards Lee@LPL

[840]

My local airport PLH is buggered as the runway is way too short and if expanded it could become a succesful regonail airport.
Am I right to say that Plymouth is the biggest city in the UK wthout an international airport (well it is definatly one of them).
The Runway Length's at PLH are as follows:
06/24: 2,641 ft
13/31: 3,809 ft
I suppose it depends on what you make of Doncaster-Sheffield. If you don't regard it as an airport for Sheffield then Sheffield would have the honour.

Also, the relationship between NEMA and Derby and Leicester is vague.

Otherwise, is Swansea bigger than Plymouth?

[WOWBOY]

Otherwise, is Swansea bigger than Plymouth?

No, Plymouth is bigger!

so does that mean that plymouth would struggle to accomadate a 737?
what is the largest plane currently operating out of Plymouth?
Regards Lee@LPL

The 737 can't operate out of PLH!
The largest that I know of is the Bae 146-300, which was ocasionally used by BA, although it can not operate out of PLH with full loads etc.

The actual runway lenths in metre's are:


Rwy Dim(m)

06/24 817x26

13/31 1161x30

[Lee@LPL]

Thats shocking 1160 metre long runway!!! suprised you can fit ATP's and 146's on it!! Its a shame really because Plymouth does not really have any close rivals to compete with like LPL has MAN & BLK so if they provided the facilities i rekon the airlines would have something to think about!!!!

[WOWBOY]

Thats shocking 1160 metre long runway!!! suprised you can fit ATP's and 146's on it!! Its a shame really because Plymouth does not really have any close rivals to compete with like LPL has MAN & BLK so if they provided the facilities i rekon the airlines would have something to think about!!!!

Yeah your right!
If they expanded the runway and enlarged the facilities it would attract airlines and would be popular but that is very unlikly.:{

[tilewood]

Southend 1605 metres

Regularly gets 757s in for maintainance, but I think I am right
when I say the largest aircraft in was a Lockheed Tristar.

[Lee@LPL]

yes but any airport can handle these big aircraft when there empty (no pax, no baggage, cargo etc) when the arrive for maintainence!!!!

[Wonkavater]

Not trying to rain on your parade, but lengthening the runway may not be the only change that's required. There's also the strength of the existing runway, and the strength and width of the existing taxiways, and the apron strength and size to consider. Spending eight figure sums of money tend to give regional airport operators heart failure.

[tilewood]

Lee@LPL

I wasn't aware I said they couldn't, I am just stating what Southend
has had, and gets, on it's rather short runway.

It's runway is quite adequate for 146's, Airbus 318/319s, Dash8-400s,
and ATRs. It is also being number crunched for the Embraer 195.

[Lee@LPL]

Yes i agree "Tilewood" good shout!! Best of luck to Southend

[Lee@LPL]

reply to- Wonkavater (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=124748) vbmenu_register("postmenu_2408560", true);

i can see where your coming from with the money side of things but LPL is hardly just a mere regional airport i think its making the transition from a good regional airport to a small international airport and by spending money on the runway and taxi ways etc we will attract the big airlines to start operating those lucrative routes
Regards Lee@LPL

[flower]

Lee@LPL sorry to rain slightly on your parade but Manchester Airport is the big player in your area and I doubt very much that will change. They have two runways and the infrastructure already in place. We are only a small country there is only so much room for growth.

Plymouth also doesn't have the population density to grow either, not when Exeter is not that far away and Plymouth are also very good at turning airlines away by treating them poorly compared to Air Southwest.

I work at an airport which I would love to see grow, however realism tells me that to make it grow the investment would have to be so vast that it will never happen to the extent I would like it to.

We don't have to travel that far to get to the larger airports and there is only so much growth available within the airways structures to cope with increased traffic.

[WOWBOY]

Plymouth also doesn't have the population density to grow either, not when Exeter is not that far away and Plymouth are also very good at turning airlines away by treating them poorly compared to Air Southwest.

You are 100% right there. It is sad really, well to me it is :p

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

Southend 1605 metres
Regularly gets 757s in for maintainance, but I think I am right
when I say the largest aircraft in was a Lockheed Tristar.


Was the largest aircraft out also the Tristar??!!!

[WHBM]

Even Ryanair's 738's are running some restricted flights closing off the back few rows of some flights.
This is an aircraft balance issue, not due to performance. Ryanair do not have assigned seating so be sure that the aircraft remains within allowable trim when the passengers have been able to sit where they like they close off rear and/or front rows. The aircraft is quite capable of taking off with all seats taken.

[WHBM]

Thats shocking 1160 metre long runway!!! suprised you can fit ATP's and 146's on it
London City is 1,199 m and gets on fine with these and other types. Restrictions there are more about obstacle clearance on approach rather than runway length.

[tilewood]

AlphaRomeoWhiskey
Now don't be silly! The Tristar was broken up at Southend as
I am sure you well know!! :p

Or even AlphaWhiskeyRomeo!!

[Regular Cappuccino]

Ahem...(modest cough) - NEMA 2893m. Regular 747 and An 124s. Biggest visitor the AN225. Also approved to handle the A380.
Retires, donning tin helmet...:D
RC

[WATABENCH]

Having a short runway does not always mean you will have an unsuccessful and non expanding airport, take where I work at BRS, It's got a very short runway not to mention the infamous hump in the middle of it and an awful approach (if on RWY 09), the weather record is genrally crap infact the RAF used to use it for bad weather practise landings back in the day, rubbish road networks and no rail network, yet compared to other airports that handle similar pax figures like NCL and EMA, BRS handles more, ok you are limited to the length of flight you can do and what equipment you can use, but, nobody gave CO a hope in hell of doing well out of BRS to NYC but now the load factor is constantly around 85% and the route is generally popular with both tourists and business, look at the expansion in pax numbers and a/c movements in recent years, in just 5 years BRS has gone from handling 1.5 million to 5.2 million with nearly 6 million expected by the end of this year, so I think its fair to say that yes a short runway may restrict long haul growth but I dont think its a major excuse for an airport not expanding. As CO have proved US operators will use 757s to the UK for small runways and so too probably would AA or US, Theres already rumours of a 2nd NYC service and a possible BOS service from BRS.
You just need an excellent marketing team to land the deal, and I think going on previous years its fair to say BRS has one of the best in Europe!
In recent years they've landed the CO deal, got large expansion from BA,FCA,XLA,KM and new schedule carriers such as Air Southwest and Eastern, and also become EZY's busiest base outside of London with 25 destinations
With the new aircraft being produced nowadays such as the B787 it wont be long until airports such as LPL and BRS whos runways are short will start to see long haul services, I have been told by sources that FCA have pretty much promised a 787 to BRS and the number crunchers have said destinations such as MLE/CUN/SFB/MBJ will be no probs direct from BRS, FCA are already swapping from 2 based 321s to poss 3 x 757s by next summer so that they will already have boeing crews there and that they can start doing longish routes such as SSH/BJL(which are already operated by other carriers from BRS)asap.
So the future can look good for these airports as long as you have a marketing team that know what they're doing and airlines that listen and take a chance!
But then again from an objective point of view, is BRS an exception to the rule? :ok:

[southender]

I believe some time after the Tristar landed at Southend, a sistership of Aer Turas did a series of touch and goes there.

Does that count?

Cheers

Southender

[flower]

There is no doubt that Bristol is a huge success, thanks to a team who pushed and pushed, although the short runway will limit the routes available they have capitalised on what they can do.

Wish we could have the same success over the Estuary

[Lee@LPL]

If your referring to Cardiff "Flower" you are having similar success. Correct if i'm wrong but you have established links with the east coast of america have'nt you? and i no for deffinate that your have ZOOM operating to canada from CWL!

[flower]

Bristol and Cardiff enjoyed a similar level of traffic in the late Nineties, Bristol has subsequently driven forward at an astonishing pace and now outstrips Cardiff.
This coming year we will see growth and long may that continue but we still have some way to go until we catch up with Bristol

[MerchantVenturer]

Lee@LPL

Just to put a bit of meat on flower’s remarks, in 1996 BRS had just under 1.4 million annual pax whilst CWL carried just under 1.1 million.

In 2005 BRS had 5.2 million whilst CWL had 1.8 million. In fact, CWL is one of the few significant regional airports to have actually gone backwards in recent years in terms of annual pax numbers, because in 2003 the airport had 1.9 million pax. (all figures from CAA stats).

However, as flower correctly says, things are now looking much brighter for CWL. The past few months have seen welcome percentage monthly increases in pax numbers, modest at present, but with the additional services planned for this year pax numbers should continue to grow but far more substantially.

To answer your specific question, CWL does have a weekly Zoom flight to Toronto for most of the year with a weekly Vancouver to be added this year. The airport also operates summer charters to Florida and these are being augmented this summer, as well as the arrival of weekly charter flights to Mexico and the Dominican Republic.

Where CWL has undoubtedly missed out is in the low-cost boom, at least relatively so. The airport’s main ‘no frills’ operator, bmibaby, for whatever reason, has never given the impression that it is so committed to CWL as, for example, easyJet is to BRS. It certainly hasn’t pressed on with expansion in the same way, although the airline may say it can only do what is economically viable.

As we are talking about runways, CWL’s is 340-odd metres longer than BRS’s 2011-metre runway, and at a lower level. Taken with a larger physical ability to accommodate up to B 747-size aircraft, it can be seen why CWL is used more by operators for long haul charters than its neighbour across the Severn.

As WATABENCH suggests, it is really up to an airport to play to its strengths and minimise its weaknesses. BRS has a larger catchment and is situated in a wealthy part of the country in a very economically-prosperous sub-region, whilst CWL has improving land communications with a larger airport infrastructure, and certainly better weather (as I am sure flower will confirm in her professional capacity).

It will probably always be that BRS has a larger critical mass, and therefore more flights and pax (unless it runs out of space), but CWL will have the ability to continue to grow without too much concern about where it will put everyone.

Of course all this is dependent on airport owners having the will (and means) to plough in the required cash and airport managements having the ability to develop their airports further, and in that sense runway lengths are only a part of the equation.

[lplsprog]

LPL soon to have 500m extention to runway which will make the East coast of USA more accessable

[Lee@LPL]

I heard lots of rhumors about the extension is it actually going ahead?
When is it due to start work?

[lplsprog]

Runway due for major reconstruction in around November and it is thought the extension will be carried out at that time. Extension will be at 27 end and in the form of a full width starter strip, the piano keyes will remain in their present position for landing on 27. (Parallel taxiway will be extended as well)