Oxford Air Training

[Oxeagle]

Hi there,
I was talking with my instructor today and he mentioned about how OAT students can get a special deal on a loan for their course at HSBC, involving conditions such as no repayments until a job is secured. Is this correct? Would any of you OAT students care to enlighten me as to the details of the loans for the APP First Officer course? I had discounted OAT as a possibility because of the massive amounts on money I would've had to have borrowed to afford the course, but if the loans have favourable conditions then I would definitely consider going to OAT!

Cheers :ok:

[jb5000]

Hi,

Your best bet would be to look at the forums on Oxford's web site:

www.oxfordaviation.com

The loan arrangement with HSBC is, I believe, to delay repayments until 6 months after the course finishes. This is not the same as delaying the repayments until you have a pilot job!

Hope that helps!

[Oxeagle]

Cheers jb ,
i'll have a look. That weblink is dead btw, should be www.oxfordaviation.net (http://www.oxfordaviation.net) !

[bishop99]

Hi, im not a student at the mo, but will be in Aug.

The loan is £25,000 unsecured and £50,000 secured.The repayments start 6months after graduation, not when you get a job (sorry if this is wrong but its what ive been believing :confused: )

And the interest is 2 or 2.5% above base rate.

Hope this helps,

[Oxeagle]

The loan is £25,000 unsecured and £50,000 secured.


Thanks bishop99, does this mean that you take a £75k loan in total or do you take either £25k unsecured or £50k secured?

[Kempus]

hi,

2.5% above base rate and repayment terms of 11yrs max for secured loan over 25k and 3.8% above base and repayment terms of 8yrs max for unsecured loans under 25k.

oh and max is 50k total so no 75k i'm afraid!

[captwannabe]

Just wondering how many people are in each APP course? Sorry if this has been answered already, but there's 14 pages of info here!

[Blinkz]

there is a search function......

there is a max of 24/25 per course. Mine is 19 strong. Some are less, some are 25.

[Reverand Lovejoy]

Guys,
I am considering a go at the Oxford scheme but I am concerned at the level of finance involved. I have recently been invited back to CTC to resit stage 3 in October but want to know about every angle on Oxford. After trawling through this site and FTE ect is the finance guarenteed once through selection or is it exactly the same as getting any other loan. If so then there may be better options. I dont mind paying the 60,000. Even if I got in CTC I would have to pay it in the long run. But if there is no advantage regarding finance then I think I'll hold off for CTC. As you can see money is the concern. Also, if they only front a 50 grand loan were does the other 10 grand come from?? If I have to pay it outright there may be a longer than expected delay.
Please, in no way see this as a CTC vs Oxford thread. I dont care! All I want is a little insight into the financing as I did with CTC. A little more than the FAQ on the Oxford site if possible!! Possibly a case study of what someone who is on the course did. Please dont tell me the only way I can get the loan is to put up my house. Mrs Lovejoy will hit the sodd!n roof :ouch:
Many Thanks
The Reverand:ok:

[Reverand Lovejoy]

This post was made in return to a comment Mooney12 made. He has since retracted his post which was probaly sensible. If you want to know what he wrote I'm sure you'll get the jist from my response. I'm not deleting this one though because it took so damn long to write



Mooney,
Thankyou for such an informative post. It's been a while since I got some good advice from this forum :E

I'm fully aware that OAT may be pompous at times and I guess if you've shelled out a 60 stretch on something you want everyone to know. This goes for BMW drivers and high stake gamblers and the like. Maybe it's human nature. I've even seen PPL students made to wear a uniform. God forbid they should be allowed! :ouch:

This I dont have a problem with. Remember when you were younger and visited other schools? Didn't they make you wear your school logo to represent the school which is why you were on your best behavour? Now if the person wearing the uniform with the big bars and wings has an attitude that stinks then I dont care what your history, or number of bars, your a t!t. This also goes for the best instructor I have had to date who never wore shoes, only trainers. From the heel up she was business dress. From the heel down she was a tennis player. Why? Because it worked for her and she did a fine job.

Long story short. Dont really care what you are wearing, surely we can see beyond clothes and the real skills that exsist. My question would be do you think those pilots with the big bars and wings are any beter than the guy in his jeans? I think the real answer is a bit more in depth - the one I am looking for.

Please only comment on true skills, not dress or looks or sex or whatever. If the Oxford guys want to walk around nursling in leopard skin thongs and no shoes then so be it (this also goes for the girls too :ok: ) If they want to walk around in bars and uniform then the same rule applies. For both sides of the story just make sure you can justify your appearence!!

The Reverand (Friday night @ 20:01 - Too far gone to make sense, surely!)

[captwannabe]

Beauty is only skin deep :cool:

[dxbpilot]

I am currently doing my AUS CPL in Queensland, but will be off to OAT to do the ATPL exams later in the year. I will then have to make up my mind where to do the JAA CPL conversion and ME IR.

I'm just curious, on the OAT website it says 180 of its students were employed with airlines last year. How many is this out of ? if its 180 of 5000 it doesn't really mean much does it ?


any one have any ideas?

thanks

[bishop99]

Hi,

I made a mistake of my previous posting, infact the HSBC interest rate is 2% above the base rate not 2.5%, which i think is quite a big difference on £50k.

Reguarding oxford student intake, if they start a course once a month and a maximum of 25students pers course, that means they have 300 (25*12) students.

But some courses have much less, so i reckon its quite a high percentage.:confused: well over 50% anyhoo's

reguards

[asuweb]

Bishop99 is correct, the interest rate on the HSBC loan is 2% above the base rate.

Reverand Lovejoy - regarding the finance. It is not guaranteed, however assuming that you have the necessary security, and present the bank with a sound buisness plan, you should find no problems in securing finance. To my knowledge, very few people are refused the loan (assuming they meet the requirements).

As for the other £10k, I'm afraid that must come from personal funds. Also bear in mind that the cost of the OAT APP-FO doesn't include accomodation (in the UK) or food, so you would obviously have to budget for that too.

Hope this helps,

Alan

P.S.
I would advise checking out the OAT forums (they are back online now) as there is a lot of information there.

[captain p]

If you are going to pay £63,000 for Oxford, do you think they would still be in business if they were NOT very good.

You pay peanuts, you get monkeys!

I got a very good vibe from looking round Oxford, all staff and students were very nice, and were truthful in pointing out that you are not guaranteed a job, but from looking at the amount of graduates going on to airlines, there prospects look good if you are determined to do well and can get high grades. I would love to go to Oxford, if I manage to get a place.

With regards to how many students the 180 is out of, I would be interested to know a confirmed figure. 180/300 is about 60% so sounds quite reasonable. I do however have friends/contacts that have gone through Oxford and have found jobs within 6 months. Getting top grades seems to be vital.

With regards to the other schools, I don't really know. One thing I do know however is that people that post on this website and slander the names of good flying schools should really consider if they do want to become a pilot, whether they have the personality to fit in to the aviation industry. Regardless of your opinion, all schools provide cadets to airlines, and future pilots will be working with people from all the different schools. If you cannot say anything productive and communicate in such aggressive manners, I would not like to work/fly with you.

Perhaps those that cannot say anything good about other flying schools should post comments on why their preffered school is so good, instead of talking about other schools. This would be more of more interest to me. It is neccessary to compare flight schools, to give an informed decision, However I advise that users of this site only take onboard opinions on cadets/students that have gone through that particular school, otherwise the rest is hear say.

Comments to the contrary of my view, to me, will simply be ignored.

The best of luck to all students at CTC, Jerez, Oxford, Cabair and any other flying schools with personalities!

I would also like to add that I have not looked at any other schools and am not looking as a reject from anywhere. I have an Aerospace engineering degree almost behind me, and am confident that I could meet, at least in terms of the academic criteria, any schools requirements.

[sicky]

I think it makes sense to only comment on a school if you have experience of it, but it can help people to hear the negatives awell. However, i do not agree to slandering the schools, mainly put it across as a point of view or experience. This can include people who have visited, but decided not to go there.

I beleive that these comments can be just as helpful as positive comments, provided they are under control.

I'm not disagreeing with the above post, i just thought i would add that to itt, if you don't mind :p

[dxbpilot]

Thanks for the info on the number per year...

However I am still trying to find info on what the pilot assessment to gain entry to the course is like, anyone who has done the pilot profile assessment please let me know what it was like and what I should expect.

thanks

[Frank Furillo]

Just thought I would share this with you, I was at the Cranebank the other day, doing a recurrent sim session and happend to talk to a BA Capt and two new FO's. They were doing their LST. Both came from Oxford and got jobs with BA, BUT they are paying BA for their type ratings.
Just thought you might want to know.
FF

[jet2us]

Hi all,

I know this post has come up on numerous occasions. I ideally am looking for the best things to refresh for the Oxford APP selection. I have a huge list of recommended topics before starting APP ground school but i really dont know where to start on the maths and physics topics for selection.

Can anyone help me with a list?

Cheers

[Blinkz]

You'll prob get a better response on the OAT forum. For maths just practice basic mental arithmetic. Long multi and division, Speed/Distance/Time stuff. you get a piece of paper but no calculator.

[captwannabe]

How much does accomodation at OAT cost for the duration of the integrated course? Also, how much does it cost to do a JOC (outside of OAT)?

[flyer79]

HI guys,

I just wanna warn you about Oxford. This school is only based on Propaganda, and that's all. They launched this year the waypoint program, for Modular studs. It's 60,000£. They don't give a **** about you, just focusing on their APPs integrated studs. I did my ATPL there, full time classroom. I passed all 14 exams, without any resit. But I studied alone. Didn't count on the teachers there. You will find also, racists and fascists teachers, that don't like "Bloody foreigners ,who don't know anything" (That's how they call us).
Concerning the feedback database, we only had them few days before the exam, while APPs had a printed summary of each subject with all the possible feedback questions, a month or two before the JARs. Initially, they'll tell U, that there's no difference between APPs and Mods, (Pete Pitcher's the DCGI, words). BULL****, there is a huge difference.
So if you're considering doing the Modular route for your atpl, I wouldn't recommend OAT. I don't know about Cabair or AFT, aft seems very good.
Today, I fly for Aer Arann, I can tell U, I don't owe it to OAT.

[asuweb]

Flyer79

Did you take up any of these issues with the management?

[EK4457]

Just a quick one.

Ive decided to go modular and been researching where to do my flying training and groundschool.

Im currently doing my PPL at Barton and have been looking at Jerez for my Professional modules. However, according to rumour, they are stopping it indef.

So I looked at OAT. Problem is, you have to do your groundschool there in order to do the flying modules. Now, I have already decided to go to BGS after lots of recommendations.

Question:

Do I change plans and go to OAT just to keep the Waypoint option open?
From what I can gather, BGS are streets ahead of anyone else and my gut feeling tells me to go there.

Incidentally, seems a strange policy to me. The whole point of modular is flexibility and choice.

Any thoughts?

[Con-Trail]

How much does accomodation at OAT cost for the duration of the integrated course?

Accomodation on site is £150.00/week for newly refurbished rooms and £100.00/week for the old ones...

Hope this helps

C-T

[Blinkz]

OAT are excellent at groundschool, I have recently finished my ATPLs and passed them all first time with a decent average. I'm sure BGS are exellent but I really don't think they can be that much better then OAT, if better at all. Waypoint is looking to be a very good program at a resonable price and a number of my friends are going to be going down this route.

[Vee One...Rotate]

Accomodation on site is £150.00/week for newly refurbished rooms and £100.00/week for the old ones...


Crikey, that's a bit steep. What's included?

V1R

[MrHorgy]

Dunno, but I reckon i'd be better living with a girl called "Vanessa", in Headington for £59p/w! :}

Well, that's if I believed the OAT hype, everyone I speaks to tells me to goto Jerez..

Horgy

[Con-Trail]

Crikey, that's a bit steep. What's included?

V1R

Your guess is as good as mine... I choose it because you're on site, no worries about transport. (that and I couldn't be bothered finding a room in Kidlington...)
They've got wireless internet.
The food is terrible and not included in the price.
That's about it...

But hey, you don't have a social life anyway during groundschool...:\

C-T

[Send Clowns]

That ain't "a bit steep" that's incredible! What do you get, a flat?

C-T, that isn't quite true. Social life is important! My advice to my students was always to have at least one night off every week, and preferably go out together. That however should rarely excede a couple of nights off in a week for most people, and does not mean behave like one class I was lucky never to teach at a certain long-demised FTO, who spent every night in For Your Eyes Only. Needless to say none covered themselves with glory, and at least one needed some assistance from me to pass (however he is now flying turboprops).

However completely shutting yourself away with the books is not the way to keep working effectively.

[Vee One...Rotate]

The food ... and not included in the price.

That's ridiculous. £600 p/m room-only? I pay about £200 p/m to rent in a pretty sought-after area at the minute. Admittedly I've been lucky getting such a good deal but still the mind boggles :bored:

Even the convenience, camaraderie, undoubted shenanigans (!) and 24-hour wireless access to PPRuNe ain't worth that price hike.

V1R :*

[Antonio Montana]

Blinkz BGS are exellent but I really don't think they can be that much better then OAT, if better at all.

Nice put down, but as you say you have only been to Oxford, personally I would say Bristol are better, but then again I went there myself.

All the groundschools are good, they must be according to Darwin's rules of natrual selection.

[flystudent]

Really have to say its worth sorting your own accom out if going to oats.

3 bed house in kidlington we paid 800 a month so thats £266 each. That was a nice place too (compare that to !150 a week/600 a month).

Later we upgraded to woodstock, still 800 a month, 2 bed place bed used dining room as a bedroom so still £266 a month and a cool little village with fantastic pubs.

No social life in groundschool !!?? dont you believe it. If you dont break away from the study you will go insane enter groundhog days and start pulling your hair out !! finish study 9.30/10 every night and go out for an hour or 2 for a couple of jars. Groud school I had so much fun it was fantastic.... but one tip, dont go out for abig night the day before you start lectures on Gyros !! You will never recover from that !!

We cycled to school, just being able to get away from the place was a god send, as for wireless internet www.v21.com broadband no minimum signup term and it's £20 a month can cancel anytime.

It's really worth looking for a place off site, took me an afternoon to sort each property.

One tip.. if you dont know anyone in your class, stay in halls for the first week or 2 to figure out who you are gonna get on with then all get a place together. The notice board and agencies always has people with properties. The EPST gusy stay in halls becasue I think it is part of their package, I dont think they have a choice (I may be wrong) but please please do try to live of site if you can - you wont start rocking back and forth in your chair so early if you do. Well thats my thoughts on that :ok:

[Mooney12]

My mates in London rent an amazing flat, all modern with everything included down to bed linen. All en-suite as well. They have an amazing view and included in that price is access to a brand spanking new gym, health spa, swimming pool/sauna. They also have valet parking and on-site security.

Its a two bed flat, £700 a month each. Not a far cry from £600 a month for a crummy room. Put's things in perspective! What a total rip off:uhoh:

[sicky]

With HSBC only providing a max £50k, that puts OAT well out of my reach unless i work for longer and save harder :sad: (and i'm already doing both to the max!! lol)

[asuweb]

King Rooney - If you haven't got anything constructive to say, don't bother posting.

However, for the record, the instructors are good at replying to emails, and they have a standard (not premium rate) telephone number should a student have the need to contact them.

[dlav]

King Rooney - change the record mate, everyone is getting tired of you :hmm:

[king rooney]

asuweb, dlav and X3k5, are you honestly trying to tell me that £150 a week for a room is a reasonable price?

[future captain]

asuweb, dlav and X3k5, are you honestly trying to tell me that £150 a week for a room is a reasonable price?

ermmm they dont force you to stay their, or as far as i am aware. Im going to see it soonish (well 2 months).

Looked through your posts rooney and most of it is anti Oxford and anti Intergrated students.

150£ a week is very steep, if i were to go i wouldnt want to stay in house at that price, im sure there are properties for rent in surrounding areas.

[boogie-nicey]

X3K5,

You claim that we don't have any idea how expensive it is to run a flight school. Well that is NOT THE CUSTOMERS PROBLEM (please also note the word 'customer'). My question/proposal to you is do you have any idea how expensive the cost base of running a school should actually be? After all numerous other schools around the globe can achieve the same if not a better standard than OAT for a cheaper price. Like for example over inflated Italian designer clothes, OAT is more brand name than practical outlay of a truely elite form of training.

I doubt very much whether OAT is value for money and if other training providers worldwide are inferior then everyone would flock to OAT. The fact is that other students go on to become equally if not better pilots than OAT graduates, there's nothing exclusive about OAT.

[Superpilot]

There are lots of differences between Integrated and Modular which you do not yet seem to understand. Read them up and you will find why Integrated is always more expensive.

Why don't you highlight those difference?

In the real world, the majority of the time it costs more to buy flexibility. People pay a a premium for doing things in stages over a longer period of time, around work/life/financial circumstances. Modular is much more expensive than "Integrated". In the world of aviation it's the other way around! Why? Well I think you answered that with this line:

Is that why Integrated graduates have a higher chance of getting a job on average than modular??

That's what your paying for my friend! :O

If the age of people who done/are doing/are thinking of doing an integrated course was correlated with age, it would prove a thing or two!

[boogie-nicey]

The Search function is not part of the argument you present. When stating something it can quite easily be supplemented by further fact or evidence within the same breath. To merely point someone to the search function allows you to make any claim where it's validity is the responsibility of the Search function. Of course if you require further or more in-depth information you can indeed utilise this function but in your case you wish to dismiss any form of reasoned debate or exchange of comments and hide behind some search option.

OAT IS A GOOD school it is certainly respectable but to have this tantrum of but we spent the most money on setup costs therefore we deserve to be No.1 elludes any practicla validation. Many corporates spend huge amounts of money but rarely if ever exhibit the same tantrum of "but we're OAT".... so? Like anyone and everyone OAT must heed to marketplace protocols, it's only natural.

Those that attend OAT are making ARE NOT making a BAD choice, however we it goes wrong is this 'aviation class system' where anyone going elsewhere is somehow branded inferior. I haven't slated OAT but cannot accept that they are immune from any reasoned argument which should be invited, which for the sums of money involved and commitment from student, partners, familiy, etc.

[boogie-nicey]

Correct, the statements ....

"I doubt very much whether OAT is value for money" and also "OAT is a GOOD school" are correct. An expensive restaurant in some upmarket location has great food but ultimately bad value for money. The same may apply to OAT in terms of this sense of 'value' which is irrespective of training standard. However what many interpret from higher cost is the level of training standards and when they mismatch that's simply seen as bad value for money. OAT bring numerous problems upon themselves because of the way they interface each and every aspect of the training community which equates to a somewhat tarnished reputation of their own making.

By the way integrated is in the ideal world the best way forward but upon application of those same realities it can also be seen as an expensive route. At times that option lacks justification especially when the graduate cannot find employment or are unable to keep their flying skills up to speed and all that 'integrated' training begins to rust. Fine for some but not necessarily the most optimum option for many others.

[Antonio Montana]

No its not, I paid less than intergrated an I now fly a 737 for a living. the only thing that matters is getting you face known.

[mcgoo]

i think maybe you should stop just quoting marketing brochures and listen to people who know what they are talking about like scroggs

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2615131&postcount=23

[future captain]

Both students come out with generally the same qualifications. A modular student could just as easily find a job before an intergrated student and im sure even before an intergrated student because as said before they may have made their 'face known', networked hard etc etc. On the other hand an intergrated student could just aswell find a job before a modular through say a recomendation etc. Its true BA will only take intergrated pilots from approved schools, cabair, oat, fte, but doesnt mean just because the national carrier doesnt (take modulars) others wont, flybe will happily take modular students but i quote this after asking the question to recuirment at flybe "intergrated students have that edge" dont ask me why or hes wrong, im just saying thats what he said.

People choose intergrated or modular on their own accord, whatever they choose good luck to them, and no one is going to hand anyone that first break, it comes through hard work and perseverance.:ok:

*all of this is in respect to the first job, BA would happily take any one who has enough experience.

[mcgoo]

thats fine but personally i would want more than an "edge" for an extra £35,000 plus

[future captain]

Exactly!

Then there's absolutely no reason why you should have to go that way, find a cheaper alternative, there are loads, some people want to go intergrated and pay that bit more.

People should not worry about what others do and where they go, everyone is different. Your are not paying their fees they are.

btw not aimed at any1 when saying you/your.

[boogie-nicey]

Lets try and be fair with regards to this argument. If you can afford OAT then why not however anyone who's outside that type of 'financial bracket' then they can go to the other (and in my opinion excellent) schools up and down the country. We all know what opinions we harbour personally but attempting to win over people from the other side will take forever.

For every OAT graduate that attempts to present him/herself as the creme de la creme of training should provoke others modular guys to offer an equally compelling counter argument to any potential employer. Don't let OAT's graduates stand on your heads in order to get forward themselves at your expense.

[MrHorgy]

Don't let OAT's graduates stand on your heads in order to get forward themselves at your expense.

WE don't need to, it's biased policies such as BA's low pilot intake requirements that ensure they are on the shelf above.

Horgy

[bishop84]

All flying wannabe's

I am sat here half way through my flying stage at OAT and i only have three weeks left...basically i have about fifty hours to do and only three weeks. I have been out here for two months and the organisation to say the least is pretty shocking!! Aparently at their new site (based in Goodyear) things are going very well.... We however have been forgotten about :ugh:. It is prooving to be most frustrating and no matter who you speak to you can never get an honest answer from them!! Sorry for making this a bit of a rant but this is how me and alot of my fellow classmates are feeling right now and absolutly nothing is being done about it... at the induction days they seem very nice to you...of course they are you are worth 60k just waiting to be sucked in by the nice ladies at HR!! All so the MD can come out to Arizona to get a sun tan!!

AHHHHHHHHHHH

Ne way the course is kinda well thought through and the people on the courses are great....if you get through ground school and are relativly co-ordinated then you stand a good chance at getting a job at the end of it....now they are off to goodyear the flying should be great but as for us....WE DONT EVEN EXIST!

Dont take all of this as gospel...it is great here but they forget about you once youve paid and if you rock the boat then that "reflects badly on you" so i have been told

Ados Ads

[Boing7117]

Bishop84 - You seem to be raising a worrying situation over in the states which in fact seems to contradict the messages that OAT convey to those wishing to join the APP scheme.

I was under the impression that OAT offer a pretty good customer service facility for concerns such as those you are experiencing.

Do you mind me asking - have you personally paid for your flying training or have the costs been met by other means (i.e. sponsorship / parents?)

Also - how old are you?

[mcgoo]

it says his age on the left, and OAT are hardly going to agree with him are they!

[Boing7117]

The point I'm trying to make here is that you don't come onto a forum like this and have a whinge because things aint working out for you. Surely - if there's so many folk unhappy with the way they are being treated then they should make a stand and get something done about it.

It's not difficult to approach whoever is in charge in a professional and diplomatic manner and raise the issues they feel need addressing.

By Bishop84 coming on this forum and representing his equally-disappointed colleagues shows immaturity. Personally I get the impression that Bishop84 is used to being spoonfed rather than taking the 'bull by the horns' and sorting stuff out.

This is clearly an internal OAT issue and he shouldn't be so quick to fire his comments at the rest of us (-especially those looking to go to OAT in the near future! (like me!))

I'm less concerned now about the service that OAT offer - but more worried about the type of people they're letting on the scheme!

[mcgoo]

your being rather naieve, the whole point of a forum is to have discussions and let people know about things positive or negative and if i have read bishops post correctly he implies that if you do complain, then your chances of being put forward to interviews etc diminish somewhat, this is entirely possible as OAT are not going to want people to rock the boat, in fact i have heard of this happening before on an old thread

[Boing7117]

McGoo - I can assure you I'm not being naive.

I've read Bishop84's posts and I appreciate that a forum is for people to make their thoughts and feelings known -whether it is positive, negative or neutral.

I wouldn't be surprised if OAT were less keen to put you forward for airline interviews if you are a known "boat rocker". Boat rockers are also known as "loose cannons" - and you only get this reputation if you're constantly making comments such as those made by Bishop84 without going through the correct channels first and making your feelings known in a constructive and positive manner (i.e. coming onto this forum sure isn't the way to get OAT to take notice).

I'd be interested to see how long it takes Bishop84 to find employment on completion of the OAT course....

[mcgoo]

McGoo - I can assure you I'm not being naive.


sorry for the typo, I hope this doesn't worry you as to the standard of people they allow on the forum.

You appear to have missed the point, bishop is saying that OAT frown upon any sort of complaints being made.

However I will wait for him to reply himself.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Boeing 7117

Bit harsh mate. Your last comment about Bishop84's employment prospects is particularly uncalled for - you don't know him and are basing your opinion on one post. Maybe posting here won't solve the problem, but training delays are incredibly frustrating, so cut him some slack.

[sicky]

I have to agree, Bing, you seem to have jumped the gun a bit. A few of us here seem to understand exactly why Bishop has reservations about coming forward with his issues. All it would take is one misunderstanding and he could easily be "mislabelled", like you have done.

My advice to Bishop would be to "chase up" the training, so to speak. However, try not to nag people constantly :p

[Boing7117]

Okay okay! I'll step back and give him chance to respond!

But for those who think I'm jumping the gun - just go back a re-read Bishop84's original post - and seriously re-read it.

I have to admit that I've looked over my comments since a few you disagreed with me - and after having read the comments made by Bishop84 - I'll stand by what I say.

[therapist]

Before anyone makes a decision to chose the 'right' school for them, they should first visit the school and see the facilities and the investment and meet and talk with the students who are actually training there.

Those that do will notice the amazing investment in aircraft, simulators and staff that Oxford has made and will also be aware of the wonderful reputation this school has in the world. They should also be impressed with the offer to repay most of the student's training costs in the event they should fail to reach the grade in the early stages of their flying. Compare that with Cabair's promise to keep your money should you fail!

The 'sales' team at Oxford are impressive in that they make no false promises of employment but they definitely do help graduates to find work and that marks the difference in my opinion with the other schools. Oxford seeks and achieves excellence. Cabair is not in the same league and CTC is playing at it. Jerez is good but has made little investment in its extra facilities. Look for the simulators!

As I say, go and visit and then the decision will be easy.

[Regis Potter]

Hmmm,

It seems that a course of APP students have become caught up in the logistical nightmare of moving an operation from one base to another. The resources at Scottsdale seem to be strained at the very least whilst everything is being ploughed into the new facility thus leaving the remaining students at the old base neglected. None of this can be determined from reading a brochure or visiting Kidlington. Apparently, the customer service is lacking in the eyes of the final course at SDL & some corrective action must be taken to reassure the customers that their significant investment will bear fruit in the timescale originally suggested by the FTO.

Boing 7117: You may be surprised to learn that representation has been made to the highest level with disappointing results.

(i.e. coming onto this forum sure isn't the way to get OAT to take notice).

... Not so; clearly this is a place potential customers seek guidance. Negative discussion about a product will almost certainly get noticed by both the retailer & customer.

I'm less concerned now about the service that OAT offer - but more worried about the type of people they're letting on the scheme!

Perhaps there is something wrong with the selection process? Have you been selected? :)

[ask26]

Therapist, I'm sorry but I have to take issue with your statement:
"The 'sales' team at Oxford are impressive in that they make no false promises of employment but they definitely do help graduates to find work and that marks the difference in my opinion with the other schools. Oxford seeks and achieves excellence. Cabair is not in the same league and CTC is playing at it. Jerez is good but has made little investment in its extra facilities. Look for the simulators!"
I indeed visited Oxford, Jerez and CTC before making a decision and the choice is not so clear cut as you make out. There are a multitude of factors many of which are discussed on a variety of threads - for me one factor in making a choice was the fact that Jerez do their entire course in one place.
In terms of simulator choice, the simulator at Jerez is a Hawker 800 and not the 737's at Oxford I'm happy to concede. Now that is not a disadvantage at all - consider BA's simulator at interview is the BAC1-11 which relies on far more manual skills and has an older autopilot which forces you to demonstrate flying/handling skills that you would be expected to have acquired in training - things which you might not have covered on a 'modern' sim. Consider also that BA sends their candidates to do their JOC at Jerez and not Oxford. Although to be fair in this discussion the MCC/JOC is more about Jet Orientation and working in a Multi-Crew environment and familiarising with a company's SOP's, not so much about flying a plane.
In terms of helping graduates finding work, Thomsonfly are coming down to interview candidates for up to 6 positions this week at Jerez. Number of candidates being interviewed having been recommended by FTE = 7. Pretty good odds I would say :)

[dlav]

The sim for BA selection is changing, or perhaps I read wrong on another thread?

Rumoured to be a 744. :eek: :ooh:

[scroggs]

The point I'm trying to make here is that you don't come onto a forum like this and have a whinge because things aint working out for you. Surely - if there's so many folk unhappy with the way they are being treated then they should make a stand and get something done about it.
It's not difficult to approach whoever is in charge in a professional and diplomatic manner and raise the issues they feel need addressing.
By Bishop84 coming on this forum and representing his equally-disappointed colleagues shows immaturity. Personally I get the impression that Bishop84 is used to being spoonfed rather than taking the 'bull by the horns' and sorting stuff out.
This is clearly an internal OAT issue and he shouldn't be so quick to fire his comments at the rest of us (-especially those looking to go to OAT in the near future! (like me!))
I'm less concerned now about the service that OAT offer - but more worried about the type of people they're letting on the scheme!

Bolleaux! This is an entirely appropriate place to air your problems and disappointments with the organisation you are paying for your training. You can be damn sure that OAT reads this forum, and will hate the fact that inadequacies in their organisation are being made public, because such revelations will affect their bottom line!

Neither Oxford nor any other school are doing you a favour by training you. You have paid a huge amount of money for your training, and you deserve treatment in accordance with that expenditure. If you give anyone £60,000 for anything, you should expect absolutely perfect service, and you are entitled to shout it from the rafters if you don't get it. That way, something will get done!

The 'sales' team at Oxford are impressive in that they make no false promises of employment but they definitely do help graduates to find work and that marks the difference in my opinion with the other schools. Oxford seeks and achieves excellence. Cabair is not in the same league and CTC is playing at it. Jerez is good but has made little investment in its extra facilities.

That is as big a load of rubbish as I've read on these forums in some years. CTC playing at it? You really have a very strange idea of what's going on in this industry!

Scroggs

[Regis Potter]

CTC playing at it?

This is the problem. Apparently there is a very real lack of understanding by potential students regarding the structure of the course & ultimately the qualification they obtain. Most FTO's are not connected to a TRTO hence can't offer type rating training (increasingly more valuable to secure that first job). The comments regarding suitablility of training device for MCC are also largely unimportant as an MCC certificate is not a type rating.

The large FTO's of this world might have the best customer service staff in the world but at the end of the day, can they take the customer from zero hours to type rating completion? Most can't. It's a bit like buying a Mercedes without an engine.

[CaptJackMcgiver]

I would very much appreciate a sample of the Oxford Aviation paper as this would greatly reduce any confusion I have over applying for the course!!! any help would be great!

cheers

Jack

[future captain]

Try the oxford aviation forum on their site, probally find some info there.

[Dave Martin]

...the only thing that matters is getting you face known.

Surely that is the nub of the argument.

At the end of the day the modular/integrated argument is pointless on a pedagogical level. Both deliver good training and I am sure the majority of schools in general do. Aptitude probably has more to do with the ability and maturity of the student or the individual instructor they end up assigned to. These are factors largely unconnected with the form or location of the training.

The issue of importance is getting that first job and for many people the peace-of-mind of increased employment likelyhood might be worth the extra tens of thousands they pay for integrated. Airlines no doubt take a mixture of candidates, regardless of dubious claims that operator XXX only takes integrated/modular, the simple requirement being that you get your face known. If an integrated course increases the chance of that then who can really argue that this isn't worth extra expense?

I am only responding to the marketing here and perhaps this is an area that some of the other FTOs should emphasise more, but OAT, Jarez and CTC seem to make it very clear that they operate referrals to airlines, have airlines come to them directly and have very close connections with carriers in the UK and beyond. They are quite upfront that this connection is especially useful if you are on an integrated course with them. That in itself (unfortunately) seems to me worth thousands of pounds. Perhaps all training organisations do this, but unless they make that clear then why should someone assume so?

Given the choice between posting your CV to join the pile on an HR managers desk, or on the other hand, having an airline come to your school looking for pilots and having your name and record presented to them, surely the later increases your chances? The extra £20,000 you may pay by going integrated at one of the "name-brand" schools might just be worth it for this. At the same time, the £20,000 you save by going modular might be pointless if you end up unemployed, or your name and face is always out of sight.

Once employed I doubt anyone really cares where the training occurred or how much it cost....but without a job, those issues become a serious concern. P.S For the record, modular would be my first choice of training IF I felt it gave me equal access to getting my face known.

[Hamil000]

i have been to oxford avition schoool, and also cabair, but no spain or western australia, but i have to say that, oxford is sssssssssssoooooooo expensive, yeah they may provide quality training but the end result is the same,,, GET A JOB WITH AN AIRLINES

anyone wanna say somthing about this

[captwannabe]

I agree with Hamil000 on this. OAT are overpriced. Other FTOs provide the same quality of training, if not better.

[Boing7117]

I think that's the point Hamil000 - "GET AN AIRLINE JOB".

The reason OAT impresses me more against other approved FTO's is the emphasis given to securing employment after completion of the course. Surely securing employment is the biggest factor in weighing up the pro's and cons of any FTO (that is of course, if you accept the flight training aspect to be of a high standard across the board)

If you're out there and spending 40k, 50k, 60k on flying training then surely using an FTO that is likely to help you the most in securing a job is the way to go.....

[Skintman]

There seems to be a constant bashing of the training schools. One of my brood went to OAT a while ago and then wrote to every Airline on the planet, as they all do. Received virtually no replies and a couple of no thanks.

The OAT graduates were arranged interviews with airlines and most got jobs within a few months on jets.:ok: Without the Careers Staff at OAT, they'd all still be looking.

The point is, the airlines like this system or they wouldn't use it. They get an ongoing steam of quality low hour pilots without the grief. It works for them.

I'm sure all the main flying schools have similar good connections with airlines built up over many years and hence can place most of their graduates quickly. Yes it costs to go to a major school, but it's the route the airlines use the most.

The airlines don't train pilots any more so lets give the schools a bit of support. :D :D

I have no connection with any school, just experience of seeing my offspring through OAT and have no complaints. Prospects should be even better now for low hours chaps now that pilot demand is picking up. Best of luck in getting that first job.

Skintman

[soviet bloc]

well most of what's been said on this tread rings deafening bells, quite right you pay £60k or more depending on how many times they want to rip you off for the next pointless logo change and although you're supposed to be a 'customer' there always exists the underlying reality that those students who complain will not be given the same employment support as others. I agree you should be able to complain without fear of the hand of evil management reaching out and fisting your career chances of walking into a jet job but at OAT that's just part of the environment. You have to be careful and be warned, those of you who have bought the friendly Oxford image, if you don't fit into their little mould of how they think an airline pilot should look, act, think and brethe you may also find yourself put out to graze. Remember the majority of management in that place are either failed airline pilots who once almost had a career and then lost it or people who never made it to begin with and love to think they can control the destination of 'customers' like you.

also feel for the guys in arizona, when I was there the place was a complete shambles, a symphony in amateurish pretention not helped by the slap dash american style instruction which ill prepared us for UK IR

with reference to previous posts praising OAT sims, that's bull. They look impressive on an open day but the 3 fnpt2 sims are beechcraft layout, most useful when you'll be flying a seneca !! also they have LHR layout to impress you when you come round with wide eyes, this too is fantastic because you won't be flying to LHR in IR training, however all the most useful airport layouts seem to be missing from those sim databases - marvelous.

[Regis Potter]

also feel for the guys in arizona, when I was there the place was a complete shambles, a symphony in amateurish pretention not helped by the slap dash american style instruction which ill prepared us for UK IR

And now most of the IFR phase is conducted in Arizona. Not exactly the London FIR :}

[soviet bloc]

well that's all very well if you want to stay in Arizona and fly on instruments round the desert, serious students prefer to be better prepared for life in Europe

[easyflyer]

Any one got any insights to OAT's Airline Pilot Training Scheme banner on their website (www.oxfordaviation.net)?

Apparently more news from OAT on Monday....

This a rejig of the APP, or something new?

ef

[Grass strip basher]

I would guess it is probably another scheme like the ones they have run for the likes of Excel and Thomas Cook etc in the past.... but that is a guess

[adwjenk]

Hey guys,

I would just like to point out a few errors in your posts regarding OAT and the APP F/O course!

For a start only 5 hours of IFR flying is conducted in Arizona with these 5 hours being basic instrument flying! The rest is conducted in the UK with 20hrs on the Seneca and 30hrs in the FNPTII trainer!
Furthermore the training value of which is not dependent on what airspace they are flown in, as they do not use comm radios or radio navaids for these lessons. Like I said the IFR flying in Arizona is basic instruments!

Also Soviet Block you state that FNPTII are of little value due to the beechcraft layout! In fact the only major difference is the location of the engine instruments! The rest in terms of instrument layout is identical to a Seneca! And well a pilot who cannot get to grips with this small change will surely struggle at any airline selection in the sim stage unless it is conducted on a sim identical to the one he or she trained on!
Also if your insulting OAT and there FNPTII Sims then nobody should train at cabair and FTE either cause there MCCs are conducted on Beechcraft sims and Hawker Biz jet, surly they are not preparing you to fly large airliners!

So please before you slate OAT or any school make sure your facts are correct!!

:ok:

[soviet bloc]

I'm not saying anything about whether or not to train at other schools, I'm sure they too have their fair share of marketing spin, I seek only to warn the niave (as I was once) that oxford market the fnpt2's as seneca sims when they simply are not. They are at best basic instrument machines, and yes as far as procedures go they have some training value, but as for handling the aircraft I found they were detrimental to progress esspecially as there were frequently up to 15 day gaps between flights because of the farcical way the ops desk is run there.
I also do not wish to say that any pilot should rely on type familiarity however when your sole aim is to pass the IR then you won't care so much about questions of ego such as 'if I can do this on my type I should be able to do it on another' the aim is to get through and pass... another b/s line oxford love at the open days by the way - we train you above the levels required - BULL

Oh and by the way, I did pass an airline sim assessment some time ago, on a type and sim which I'd never flown before.

[BOZZATO]

Hi there!

Just thought i'd give my 2 cents, i have a feeling that it is likely to be another Thomas Cook scheme as their training Captain sat in on one of my ground school lectures a few months ago. Also it's been about a year since TCX announced their previous scheme!

Regards

James

[Regis Potter]

adwjenk

Your information is out of date.

Furthermore the training value of which is not dependent on what airspace they are flown in, as they do not use comm radios or radio navaids for these lessons. Like I said the IFR flying in Arizona is basic instruments!

Not so anymore I'm afraid - majority of applied I/F is now taught in the U.S. & the r/t, procedures & airspace structure are somewhat different to the U.K.

:ok:

[adwjenk]

Regis Potter,

Well one of us has out of date or incorrect info but i would be greatful if you could share your sources with me!
So far as i am aware it is only 5hrs of basic insturment training at OAT in Goodyear! No more no less, there is a fair bit of Seneca flying out there but that is because students take their CPL skills test in the Seneca!

[Blinkz]

Adwjenk is correct in saying that there is only 5hrs instrument flying in the seneca in Goodyear, the majority multi flying is VFR in preperation for the CPL test which is conducted in the Seneca.

[sicky]

Let's hope so, something else to have a go at, meaning you either get onto it but if not, have a little bit more experience to help out in the future :ok:

[Regis Potter]

adwjenk, Blinkz,

Total I/F at GYR is 43hrs30 last time I checked the syllabus. Much of this is applied & I stand by my previous remarks.

Instrument flying skills & procedures are the same for both single & multi-engine aircraft so you learn the technique on the single, then learn how to fly a twin & apply the same techniques.

In fairness, there is a good deal of synthetic consolidation back at Oxford so that is the place where the 'local' procedures will be adopted.

:ok:

[Donandar]

I was told the students now do a multi-engine CPL before coming back to the UK so that they can fully concentrate on their IR and changing weather / airspace conditions. I know what you're saying about applied instrument flying, but a knowledge of principles in practice allows for much quicker adaption on return from the US surely?

Are you saying it'd make the course easier to do no applied instrument training and do it all upon return from the US, and presumably in the same amount of course hours and without a price hike?

Upon looking round Oxford and talking with the students already there you begin to understand that common sense comes into most of the so called 'problems' people arise. Not all students are happy, but you obviously can't please everyone and to be honest, when talking with a few I thought to myself "I'm not suprised you're disgrutled" just because they're that type of person!

You talk about the fact that the R/T and procedures are different and you say this as if it's a bad thing... Well if you were coming back to the UK, you already KNOW that you're gonna have to brush up on UK RT - so why not use OATmedia's RT comms software? I used the VFR stuff at my local club doing my PPL and it was fantastic.

I understand it's a problem, but if you have common sense you'd do something about it... :ok:

[adwjenk]

Total I/F at GYR is 43hrs30 last time I checked the syllabus

Regis Potter,

May I strongly recommend you check the syllabus again, or indeed contact OAT who will point you in the right direction!!

[Regis Potter]

adwjenk

What course are you planning to do with OAT? If APP then I can assure you that the syllabus content I have described is accurate at the time of writing. Note that I'm quoting mostly single-engine IFR totals; there are 5 hrs ME/IFR & I stand completely by my remarks concerning the applied I/F training out in the U.S. I am not suggesting that the I/F training conducted abroad is in any way substandard, only that the environment is different to the U.K.

I'm unsure of the source of your information but I can tell you that it sounds as if you may be confused about the course content. If you contact OAT & enquire about the single-engine VFR/IFR content they should clear things up for you.

Regards

Regis

[adwjenk]

Regis,

I understand the syllabus and yes you are correct with the I/F time that you have quoted!
Yes I am aware the airspace in the USA is very different to that of the UK!
With OAT you still get the minimum required hours in the UK required for the issue of a CAA IR from an integrated course, which currently stands at 55 hours! Also the CAA will not let any training outside JAA airspace count towards the issue of a CAA IR! So all the I/F time in the U.S is additional to what a student would require so would defiantly benefit the student on return to the UK!
Also if you are criticising OAT for doing instrument training out of UK airspace then shouldn’t you be using the same argument in the FTE topic, since all there IR training is conducted in Spain!

Happy flying

[Regis Potter]

Also the CAA will not let any training outside JAA airspace count towards the issue of a CAA IR! So all the I/F time in the U.S is additional to what a student would require so would defiantly benefit the student on return to the UK!

Where are you getting all this from? Consult LASORS & you will find that this is not the case. I am most definately not criticising OAT nor anyone else for how they choose to run their business. There are significant advantages from a financial perspective for both the customer & company. Continuity is paramount in flight training & a pleasant flying environment will facilitate this. I am merely attempting to enlighten potential students that they should be absolutely clear as to what they are signing up for.

Good Luck

[dlav]

Both I and Blinkz are on the APP.

Adwjenk will also soon be at OAT, and I think we know the structure of our course a little better than those who are not.

Some of the twin flying has been shifted to Goodyear in order to save time and money when the courses return form the states, in order to get the IR training underway quicker without having to waste time in the UK of converting on to the seneca.

The new courses AP253 onwards will now be doing their CPL skills test in a twin too (done in the states) but the vast majority of all the IR training is done in the UK - NOT THE USA!!!!:D :ok:

[Regis Potter]

Adwjenk will also soon be at OAT, and I think we know the structure of our course a little better than those who are not.

dlav,

Have we flown together?

[dlav]

No idea, possibly! :ok: :confused:

[microfilter]

To those of you who failed an exam whilst studying at OAT, did you know of the existence of this feature?:

'Should you fail an examination paper as a Modular Ground School student, you can receive FREE Classroom Revision Courses until you pass the paper (or until the final attempt has been used - whichever is sooner)'

(directly from the website)

To those who have failed an exam- were you offered free classroom revision until you passed the paper? I'm quite sure there must be plenty of you out there who have taken advatage of this astonishingly good value offer and it's not just a cynical marketing ploy that never materialised.......

[Dit]

Hello Microfilter, I am currently in ground school stage 2 at oxford and whilst I havent failed any of my exams so far I do know a couple of students who have recieved the brush up courses. Both said that it was of great help in preparing them for the exams. Both of these students were intergrated but I have no doubt that it would also be offered to modular students too. Though hopefully with a little hard work you wont need them.

[microfilter]

Thanks Dit- Well that's great that they are getting the extra help - strange how OAT always bang on about how great us integrated students were in comparison with modular. It would be interesting to know which subjects they failed as there is some particular poor teaching at OAT. Be warned...

[asuweb]

It would be interesting to know which subjects they failed as there is some particular poor teaching at OAT. Be warned...

Why assume that these individuals failed due to poor teaching? If you decide to undertake such a course, you should be prepared to put in all the work necessary to achive the highest passes possible and shouldn't be relying purely on being spoon fed. If a large proportion of the class failed a particular subject, then yes, you may have a point, however this was not the case.

[microfilter]

I'm assuming nothing, merely made a statement of fact on which i am prepared to argue exhaustively

[dlav]

Have you really nothing better to do? :p

[november.sierra]

asuweb, what a load of nonsense!!!

Look at the price tags attached to classroom taught courses as opposed to distance learning courses. Yes, that's right, they cost an awful lot more. That's the price you pay to receive your 650 hours of teaching that are required. The teaching needs to be up to standard, and whilst I don't dispute that a substantial amount of work needs to come from yourself to pass, that argument doesn't really come into it as far as teaching quality is concerned.

If the teaching is no good, and during my time at OAT there were some instructors that were plain useless, and you're saying most of the work has to come from yourself, then why exactly would you pay to receive classroom instruction, if you could have done it at half the price distance learning?

I'm not slating OAT here, because many of their instructors are excellent and highly capable individuals. However, there are also some who should never have been given a job instructing, and it is those individuals that have been referred to in previous posts, as I understand it.

[What's a Girdler]

Out of all the threads I have ever read on this site, this is by far the most tedious and pointless. You guys really need to get out more, experience real life and get a pretty lady! The majority of you don't even know how to spell 'integrated'.

[microfilter]

NOvember Sierra is right

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

And I think there will call time and bring this thread to a close.

I thankyou,

WWW

[MightyDucks]

I was thinking of doing my training with oxford aviation and was wondering if anybody has any opinions on this school

[MAVERIK88]

Hi, I don't know if I can post here. So... I need to have informations about Oxford Aviation Academy from the people that are studing in this school, or studied. I read in their website that help you to find an employment. Thanks you for the attention, If you want you can write me a private message.

[SupaMach]

Urm.. so what do you want to know?

There is a tonne of info already on this board too.

[WillingPilot]

Search is an excellent feature, advanced search (http://www.pprune.org/search.php) is even better.

[MAVERIK88]

I want to know if with the modular training you have the same treatment of a cadet that start the training ab-initio, because i have already a ppl. On the web site of oaa is not clear this. If at AOO it's true that helps you to find a employent I could change the school.

[RollingCircle]

Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.300
Requirements for a specific authorisation for instructors not holding a JAR-FCL licence to instruct in a TRTO outside JAA Member States or in a FTO partial training outside JAA Member States in accordance with Appendix 1b to JAR-FCL 1.055

By definition, modular training is not partial training; the module is started and completed in one location. I am lead to believe that Oxford use staff not holding a JAR-FCL licence to instruct students at their non-Member State facilities and that modular training is conducted there. Are modular students trained outside of Member States taught by JAR-FCL licenced instructors or by local staff holding an approval to instruct in "a FTO partial training outside Member States" as described in Appendix 1?

Any former OAA modular students care to comment?

[BigGrecian]

FAA instructors are used.
Most have never even been to Europe!

Makes me wonder why the course costs so much for a non JAA flight instructor...

[Groundloop]

FAA instructors are used.

Not for much longer!

[RollingCircle]

FAA instructors are used.

Presumably these FAA instructors must also hold JAR-FCL licences to work with modular students?

Appendix 1b to JAR-FCL 1.055
Partial Training outside JAA Member States

FTO's partly training outside the territories of a JAA Member State may perform training according to the following:

(b) The navigation progress test in Phase 3 of the ATP integrated course may be conducted by a locally based flight instructor not connected with the applicant's training, provided that the instructor holds a JAR-FCL licence containing FI(A) or CRI(A) privileges, as appropriate.

Is this the case at OAA? Are the navigation progress tests conducted by JAR-FCL licenced instructors or by instructors not holding a JAR-FCL licence authorised to instruct in a FTO outside JAA Member States as described in Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.300?

[BigGrecian]

It doesn't matter what JAR says - JAR ended June 30th 2009 however it is :

Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.300
Requirements for a specific authorisation for instructors not holding a JAR–FCL licence to instruct in a TRTO outside JAA Member States or in a FTO partial training outside JAA Member States in accordance with Appendix 1b to JAR-FCL 1.055

Standards Document 39 3.6.1 - governs PPL training for a UK FTO.

Groundloop - do tell....

[RollingCircle]

Standards Document 39 3.6.1 - governs PPL training for a UK FTO.

Standards Document 39

JAR-FCL Criteria for the Approval of a Flying Training Organisation offering training for the JAA PPL and Night Qualification for Aeroplane and Helicpoter, in a non-JAA State.

I don't believe OAA conduct PPL training, do they? However, even if Standards Doc 39 were the authority, I think you would find similar compliance issues:

Standards Document 39

2.3 Chief Flying Instructor

2.3.1 The CFI shall meet the requirements of JAR-FCL 1.055/2.055, and in addition, hold an instructor qualification that is recognised by, and valid in the State in which instruction is to be given.

According to the FAA, The CFI does not hold an FAA Flight Instructor Certificate and I don't believe the FAA recognise UK CAA or JAA instructor qualifications?

3.5.2 The ratio of non-JAA instructors qualified in accordance with Appendix 1 to JAA-FCL 1.300/2.300 to JAA qualified instructors shall not exceed 8:1 for PPL training courses. There shall always be a JAA qualified, unrestricted flight instructor on duty at the FTO when training is taking place. This instructor must be readily available within the FTO, or on the airfield or not beyond the circuit pattern if flying is taking place.

So PPL training demands a ratio of not greater than 8:1 non-JAA to JAA instructors; what is the ratio in Phoenix? Is there always an unrestricted, qualified JAA instructor on duty as described, seven days a week throughout the day, after 5pm until the cessation of night flying and at weekends?

3.6.2 Non-JAA instructors qualified as described in para 3.6 shall only give instruction for a JAA licence or rating at the FTO where the standardisation took place; the qualification is not transferable. No instruction shall be given towards a JAA professional licence or Instrument Rating.

So clearly the wrong document BigGrecian but it illustrates an interesting point; why pay so much more for professional pilot training, integrated or modular, at a school that partially trains outside of member states when they don't even meet the basic criteria for PPL training approval outside of member states according to the CAA? These facts may be acknowledged by former students but few if any potential trainees have even the slightest clue about the regulatory safety nets established to protect them prior to signing up for many tens of thousands of pounds worth of debt - and it doesn't seem that in this case, the FTO does either.

[BigGrecian]

They have JAA instructors and examiners on staff.

They just do examining and mainly administrative tasks.

The CFI will be JAA as per the requirements.
I was just mentioning Standards Doc 39 for general PPL training.

They meet the requierments of JAR FCL 1.300 Appendix 1 though, so they are legal.

Naples, OFT, OBA/EASA all operate the same way.
EFT has JAA FIs who also have FAA CFIs etc.

But your right - your paying 3 times the price for something which they are probably paying about 1/3 for.

They've also got a reputation for shoddy standards even compared to the US JAA standard, due to their in house examining, and are considered by some to be the lower quality output of the USA....

[P-T]

OAA help the graduated student by emailing them applications for recruiting airlines. I guess maybe one every two months over the last 2 years due to the current climate. I know that of the 22 on my OAA intake only about 3 or 4 are not in a flying role at the moment. This is mainly to do with the individuals circumstances and attitude. i.e. not really looking for employment and mainly due to most funds being taken up by the ATPL and therefore not able to pay for a further PTF course.

As far as the instructors in OAA Arizona are concerned (Can't speak for Melbourne - never been there) The instruction is mainly done by FAA instructors (that I found to be very, very thorough, diligent and experienced), but the progress tests are done by JAA certified examiners and the actual licence tests by CAA examiners. As far as it being below standard from USA, I would have to disagree. I thought OAA did exactly what they said they would. They provided us with a JAA ATPL(f) and the vast majority gained the full licence with very little trouble.

PPL won't stand for anything on the Integrated course. You'll still have to do everything. To make the point - there was an RAF Fast Jet pilot on a few courses behind me (medical issues for discharge), and he still had to do the same amount of hours as the rest of us. I think the first few basic progress checks were removed and he was given the more advanced tests - which he passed with flying colours, as you'd expect.

[BigGrecian]

s far as it being below standard from USA, I would have to disagree. I thought OAA did exactly what they said they would.

That doesn't infer anything about standards.

Yes they got you a JAA CPL and my point is that they have in house examining which has lead to low standards...
They're interested in you passing because then they have a high pass % and it adds to the Oxford prestige which of course is total rubbish.
Also what do you have to compare it against? What you perceive to be a good standard, is of course part of the whole Oxford "experience"
It's relative.

We got phone calls from Oxford graduates all the time where I work after FI jobs....which when they spent well over double what students could spend with us....means the price mark up isn't worth it.

[mad_jock]

And those FI's have to be retrained otherwise you end up with students doing 3 deg approaches all the time.

Nav can be a bit hit and miss as well. They have some truely bizarre methods for diversions.

And they have to be checked out in xwinds, that can be entertaining to watch the first time they get a half decent one.

Saying that we have one part timer intergrated trained FI(R) at our school and he is developing into quite a good instructor. Personally I think its more to do with his previous instructing roles in other skill sets, and his personality lends itself to accepting opinion away from his own SEP training. He think's about what has been said and ask's questions then forms his own opinions.

Either that or he is being supervised properly by the unrestricted instructors and we are doing a good job at it :p But 90% of it is down to his personality accepting that the way he has been taught is not the only way to operate an aircraft or the best way I might add.

Its quite funny now when he does checks on fellow ex OAT students. Critical is an understatement.

[RollingCircle]

but the progress tests are done by JAA certified examiners and the actual licence tests by CAA examiners.

I was under the impression that only the CPL Skill Test is conducted by an FE CPL; the progress tests are usually flown with an FAA instructor. There was a period when even the IRT was being conducted in-house.

They have JAA instructors and examiners on staff.

They just do examining and mainly administrative tasks.

The CFI will be JAA as per the requirements.

I think there are two JAA FI's/Examiners on staff -I believe they instruct in addition to examining and administrative tasks. The JAA requirements may be met but are FAA criteria satisfied? Are all JAA FI's properly qualified to act as PIC in a multi-engine airplane whilst flying with a student whom, irrespective of the fact that training is not conducted for FAA certification, cannot be considered a passenger, for example?

Naples, OFT, OBA/EASA all operate the same way.
EFT has JAA FIs who also have FAA CFIs etc.

No doubt but does OAA?

[Groundloop]

Groundloop - do tell....

The proposed new EASA regulations for flying instructors will require ALL instructors teaching an EASA syllabus to hold a licence from an EASA state.

Not the rule yet but in the pipeline.

[Gyro Drift]

I studied at OAA on their Integrated course. Although I have no experience from other flight schools I found OAA to be a fantastic school with a highly professional teaching environment both in Groundschool and during the Flight Training.

You definitely have to put the work in as i'm sure you're aware. Groundschool runs from 08:40 until 16:20 monday to friday and then I'd say about 3 or 4 hours of self study are required in the evenings (maybe more when exams are looming).

The CPL training out in Arizona was a fantastic experience, something that will live with you for the rest of your life! Although by no means a necessity, I think already holding a PPL gives you that little boost at the beginning of your CPL training as you will have been introduced to flying light aircraft and will be more confident in the early stages. Coming to the end of the CPL however, everyone is at pretty much the same standard.

Then the really challenging part came, the Instrument Rating (IR). This part of the course was carried out in the multi-engine PA-34 Seneca back in Oxford (and PA-34 Simulators). I found my instructor to be a highly helpful, professional and focused person who really wanted what we wanted, to pass the IR first time. No question about it, he pushed us hard and sometimes we were at the airport 12 or 14 hours a day practicing on the desktop simulators to get things spot on. Thanks to our instructors high quality skills, great availabilty of aircraft, a well structured programme and my flying partner and I putting a lot of work in, we got first time passes on our 170A's and IR Skill Tests.

The MCC and JOC was also huge amounts of fun on the 737-400! With our instructors being ex airline pilots they really knew how to focus or minds on our future roles in multi crew environments. We also did many airline style sim assessments and overall was a good introduction to MCC and jet operations.

Your course mates and OAA members of staff are ALWAYS there to help you should you need it, be it personal issues or advice on how to make the best of your time and training.

The course was very hard work but highly rewarding. I have made some great friends and will always look back on the course with the fondest of memories.

GD

[Groundloop]

The course was very hard work but highly rewarding.

And very expensive!:ok:

[Gyro Drift]

Yeah they did me a good price for writing that little article! ;)

Seriously though I was just talking about how much I enjoyed training with them, did you enjoy your flight training? It's got to be hard not to enjoy it!

[RollingCircle]

Wouldn't be the first time...were you offered an interview for the next BA SSTR class?

[SPARKS8]

Firstly i would like to say hi to everyone as its my first post! Iam in my low 30s and luckly now find myself in a position to be able to chase my dream of being able to fly for a living! This weekend i visited the oxford open day as i was unsure of really knowing how to take the next step i.e modular or intergrated. Being honest i wasnt very impressed. After being told in no uncertain terms by one of the instructors "low 30s is to old for airline training and employment" the day wasnt going to well!
I have to be honest, although yes the facility looks great, i can honestly say i thought it was all a bit miss leading.
The md of oaa gave a talk on about how great the service/facility is and how "intergrated" is really the only way to get a job now for the newbie atpl holder etc etc. But then right at the end of the speach he went onto cost. over 86k plus a type rating that could well be over an additional 30k. The 86k was provided that a first time pass was achived on every phase! so if your "Normal" and not a robot you have got to budget for some extra training. I roughly added it all up to around £130k with some extra training, as did a few other people i got talking to on the day!
Then came the crunch for me. A airline training captain came along to obviously push the training that oaa provide, and make it clear that there were openings in 2011 and oaa intergrated students will be high up on the list to the airline But.... He stated that the students they offer jobs to would be paid by an hourly rate of £50p/h. But restricted to 500hrs maximum. Once they have completed the 500hrs they MIGHT be offered further employment.
I cant help but think is this a correct??, who would fork out towards 130k to see a return lets be honest of 20k (after taxes) tops and then be told "sorry mate ya out of a job!" and still at the end have a frozen licence.
I might have miss understood but i was not alone in thinking this on the day.
If i have got it wrong i will hold my hands up and say sorry but at the end of the day iam looking at spending alot of money with a training provider and from what i heard on Sat at this stage it wont be OAA.

[RollingCircle]

Sparks8

No, you have not misunderstood - this sounds correct. Plus, you would be competing with everyone else trying to get that same job but I suppose making 20K with a lot of debt is better than making nothing?

[SupaMach]

Where was the training captain from?

500 hours max?
That was certainly a rumour that did the rounds early this year, but as a grad I know friends who are on both 5 year contracts and ones to the end of 2011, and from looking at both theirs (and mine) I can say there are no hourly statements!

In fact, for most of us, our pay goes up after 500 hours..

[SPARKS8]

Hi Again, Thanks for the replies. The training captain was from easyjet. Really nice guy but he was very specific in making it clear that each student they take would be restricted to 500hrs max for a year, and after that the student MIGHT be offered a further contract. If i remember correctly this was raised by a lady questioning it at the end of the talk, and the reason/answer i believe was down to the "global economic climate" but then he went on telling us all how the company is cash rich with a very substantial amount bank!
I couldnt help but think the two comments contradicted themselves a little. He did however also make it clear that he and the comapny he worked for is starting to see a turn for the better and new a.craft are expected in 2011. Like i said iam new to all this and could easily have miss understood. But i was not alone in my thinking on the day, With that and being told i was to old it has put a bit of a dampener on oaa. I agree my chances of flying big jets for major airlines could well be "pie in the sky" at the moment but when the current climate does change, and it will, doors then might well open that are shut now (for all training students). Either way my determination is high and i will get there one day whatever route/training provider i use! I Have been told and heard good things about stapleford - cabair - multiflight so if anyone out there has views either way on them please do tell.

[aviationdreams91]

Hi sparks , let me say my experience hope it is useful and compare a little bit between stapleford and others ..... i have been searching for flying schools to start from zero to atpl for months now and Stapleford was the best in the uk !! i have went to cabair , BCFT ( bournemouth ), bristol , oxford and i checked evrything there so i think i can compare very good . i will write in points to be easier to compare .

1) Stapleford has a very large fleet including more than 40 aircraft wich no other place have it with this variety as they have the C152 , piper arrow , piper warrior , Sceneca , and the D42 wich is a great aircraft to fly
( Compared to oxford, they have only the Cessna's , warrior , sceneca , so they dont hae the D42 which is a very big advantage to stapleford (
NB: to b fair the C152's used for the ppl is a little bit old but flying wise no problems and will be great to fly them )

2)The location of stapleford is one of the best locations in the uk to train in , b cuz around the airfield there is their uncontrolled airpsoace and also there is the controlled airspace near central london and essex .
also for the location ,l it is suited between 3 big ariports like heathrow , gatwick and stansted so a lot of traffic to deal with .
wen i flew the C152 tehr i spotted the Emirates A380 :D lol
NB: it is less than 60 min driving from central london !! ( the point is u need a car )

3)They have two runways asphlat one and grass one .
(the asphalt one isn't equipped for the ILS , so they use Southend airpot , so u have an advantage ther )

4)very high pass rates .

5) very good recruiting record to graduates ( u can check their site )

6)Instructors are the best !! very professional , kind , down to earth.

7) 99% postive reviews :) :)

8)lowest modular cost !! and getting quality training

This what i concluded from all my visits and questions . hopefully i will start in march my training :)

hope this helps

[Dibies]

Hi,

I will start the Oxford Waypoint program in a couple of weeks.

I was wondering if somebody knows the model of the PA28 they are using in Goodyear.

For my hour building I flew on the PA28-161 (Cherokee Warrior II). And I thought it might be a good idea to review the technical details of the plane before starting the flight training.

[LVL_CHG]

PA28-161 as well. Lucky you!

[Dibies]

It's only 13 hours on the pa28 for the Waypoint program.

But it's not luck I've done mine hour building on that plane for this particular reason (the only thing I wasn't sure is the exact model).

[bwfly88]

Hi Dibies. Where did you do your hours building? I am planning on doing the Waypoint programme and was looking at Places that offer the pa28-161 also.

Cheers,

[Dibies]

In Arizona, Chandler Air Service: Chandler Air Service (http://www.aerobatics.com/)

[Reverserbucket]

Then be prepared for a bit of a shock and a lot of hard work Dibies. The typically unstructured hour building from Chandler is not the best preparation for a short, intense modular CPL course. I'm frankly surprised that you didn't go and have a look around GYR and ask whilst you were in CHD.

[Dibies]

I followed an integrated course before (Sabena Flight Academy, so very similar to OAA). I flew with them around 40 hours on DA20-c1 in Arizona and 30 hours IR FNPTII sim (DA42) in Brussels. Plus I did my ground school with them.

I had a problem with the last part of the landing (final / short final couldn't see that I was drifting from the center line). The problem was solved with Chandler, plus I increased my general airplane handling proficiency.

So believe me I'm more than aware of what you are talking about!

[redbull21]

Dibies,

GYR have both PA28 II & PA28 III.

[Reverserbucket]

PA28-161 II & III are the same type. Only cosmetic changes to the cabin (and the III is newer - typically 13 years old as opposed to 35 years and upwards for the II's).