Dogs in helicopters. No, really!

[DBChopper]

I'm after picking the brains of any of you, Worldwide, with experience in police or military flying where dogs have been carried onboard, in cages. I'm interested what type of cages or transit boxes you use, the manufacturers, type of fitment and pros/cons associated with their use. Please feel free to PM me if you would rather.

And before you ask... no, they will not be trained to fly and and yes, they could be trained to bite the pilot if he went to touch the wrong thing (I've heard that joke too :hmm: ).

Thanks in anticipation,

DBChopper
:ok:

[Vertical Propulsion]

Have carried plenty of working dogs in Northern Ireland. IIRC they were supposed to muzzled and sat in the furthest aft seat (puma). However, they mostly sat behind the pilots and put the legs on the jump seat so they could see out of the window or they went to sleep under their handlers seat.

[996]

Dog muzzled, seated on the floor in the rear with the leash attached to the collar/harness and looped through a floor mounted tie down so the handler can pull the dogs head to the floor if necessary. Cage? not needed. Carry unaccompanied by a handler? Never.

[jab]

Beware of enthusiastic dogs! I know of a case where a handler and his dog were sitting in the door of the helo and as they were coming in to land, the dog saw someone he did not like on the ground. He jumped out and as his leash was wrapped around the handlers wrist, they both took a dive. Luckily only bruises to the body and the ego.

[albatross]

My black lab used to sleep in the chin bubble of the 206. Had to make sure his claws were well clipped to preclude scratching the bubble.
Some dogs are bothered by the tail rotor on some helicopters - Hughes 500s seemed to attract them. A friend of mine landed a 500 at a fishing lodge once and some mutt ran out onto the pad and with a mighty leap "attacked" the tailrotor. Things went badly for the rest of the day.
I am sure that some of the guys who work with avalanche rescue dogs and suchlike will have lots of usefull info.

[Big_Johnno]

Someone has been watching Elvis in Paradise Hawaiian Style.
John

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2291376&postcount=1928

Still makes me smile

[DBChopper]

Still makes me smile
Me too, but I'm not sure mine would like the glasses! :D
Thanks for your replies so far. The idea at this stage is to fit a couple of cages so that handlers don't need to hang onto their dogs for the whole trip. It also means that a dog that suddenly decides it doesn't want to be in a helicopter any more, thank you, doesn't become a problem mid-flight bar a bit of barking from the back. I've not ruled out the dog being secured by the handler for short transits, but for longer trips I'd like them to be caged and out of the way, so any more input (or pics) would be greatly appreciated.
DBChopper

[peterperfect]

I think the UK Customs and Excise dogs have a special harness for winching down to ships at sea ?
In the 80s I flew specialist dogs around from time to time, for wanting a flight category code in the (mil) auth sheets/F 700, WOOFTAX always seemed appropriate !

[Thomas coupling]

DBChopper: We use a lightweight dog cage for sliding into the cargo bay of the EC135. It's tailor made to fit with minimum fuss and the dog gets into and outof the cage while it is in the a/c.
Our CAA flt Ops inspector confirmed that for commercial flights, a dog simply lying on the floor amongst the passengers etc is to be treated as loose cargo which is inacceptable.
PM me if you need details of the kit.

[DBChopper]

TC,

PM on its way - thanks very much

[nigelh]

I think it depends on the dog and if you know it ! My two labradors leap into the back and just go to sleep, in fact all the dogs i have flown seem to fall asleep, could be the strobe effect from the blades , or just my super smooth flying ! In any event surely just a leed attached to the rear seat is quite enough ! unless you are one of those types thats into flying with little white gloves...

[chevvron]

Peter Cadbury once told me his Great Dane pup loved flying in his Jetranger; only about 6 months old so only about 4ft tall!

[jon s gull]

Another alternative to dog transport can be found at http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=211801

[Hilico]

Or indeed this one: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=211615

[DBChopper]

I'd try it, but I suspect mine might outrun the R22 that I usually fly...

:E

[Gaseous]

Hmm, Too much carb heat
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/avenuedentistry/scan0009%20(Small).jpg
Yes- She did wear the seat belt.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/avenuedentistry/Jess.JPG

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/avenuedentistry/crew.jpg

This Lab cross had about 250 hours 'P2'

I've got another now that also enjoys flying.

[zhishengji751]

wow.. I assume they dont go crazy if they see birds etc? Does anything spook them?

On a slightly related note, there is an Aussie book written by Peter Haran titled "Trackers" The untold story of Australian Dogs of War. It is about his time in Vietnam in 1967 as a dog handler and has some humorous stories about getting into and out of Hueys.

TFS.. thats a great pic too!

[Gaseous]

Nothing upsets them in the air. They seem to go into some sort of trance. Kids are loads more unpredictable.

[SASless]

TC,

Let me get this straight...your CAA guy says the trusty Police K-9 is unrestrained cargo? Does he consider a seeing eye guide dog to be unrestrained cargo as well?

Some folks just don't have enough to do it seems.

[Cross-eyed]

Gaseous - it appears to me that Enstrom has a right-side PIC. P2 is checking the chart.

[verticalhold]

I regularly fly with a black lab on the back seat of the 355. He is restrained by a normal car harness and is invariably asleep in about 2 minutes. I also used to fly a border terrier who would sit in the chin bubble and enjoy the view, he and I would go for walkies while his master played polo.

[oldbeefer]

SASless - remember 'CAA' is Campaign Against Aviation !

[DBChopper]

Let me get this straight...your CAA guy says the trusty Police K-9 is unrestrained cargo? Does he consider a seeing eye guide dog to be unrestrained cargo as well?

I suspect the decision may have been influenced by the fact that the dogs TC will be carrying are also trained for "manwork", which these days has been politically correctly :yuk: renamed as "criminal work". It basically means biting people very hard and hanging onto them. They have been known to do this at unexpected and inopportune moments (not mine, of course :rolleyes: )and could be a contributory factor in an "interesting" flight profile :ok:

[ppng]

G'day SAS-Less
I respect most of what you write, but I HATE dogs and K-9 will not get anywhere near my machine!

[nigelh]

never trust a person that doesnt like dogs.....always worked for me !

[delta3]

My dogs has about 1000 hrs in R44.
Its a Beagle, sit in the back on very short trips (15'), and in a cage that just fits between seats in the back and is strapped with the seat belt.

Longest flight 6hrs...

As others told in the thread : she goes in a kind of semi-sleep.

I wandered if she really likes it, but on long trips needing refueling she tends to stay under the heli (even garding it), and is really mad if I pretend leaving here behind.

Was a few moths ago on Isle of Wight, and the dog really put up a 'barking stand' to defend her heli against a B206 that landed just nearby....

So I think she likes it.


d3

[CyclicRick]

I hope they wash the next dog we have to fly, the last one stank and it took three days for the smell to disappear. :yuk:

[SASless]

Was it the dog...or the handler that left his mark? My experience has been the dog is the smarter of the team.

[DBChopper]

"My experience has been the dog is the smarter of the team."
Thank you. I'll pass that on to him :ok:

[CyclicRick]

No, it was definately the dog:ooh: , I didn't want to get too close to the handler though someone told me he bites!

[Thomas coupling]

Many years ago, just as I was learning the ropes to fly (and work) with the police something happened that accelerated that learning profile - especially with dogs:

I was hovering over a football ground one night doing crowd control (in an AS355) when one of the engines decided to surge. Even with backing off power, the surging continued, so I shut the bugger down and stuck the cab into the first available landing site nearby, which was the local hospital landing pad.
We couldn't get an engineer out to check the engine over, so we elected to cadge a lift back to base with one of the police dog vans.
The journey was 40 minutes and we (the crew of 3) sat in the back on the van floor with 4 dogs in cages, stacked up in front of us, barking and howling non stop.
I had my back to the cages while the other 2 officers sat opposite and facing the dogs. The dog immediately behind me went very quiet for some time and kept pacing back and fore in his cage (German Shepherd).
The others were barking and howling non stop giving us all a headache. Occasionally I would wallop the cages with a backward motion of my arm to try to shut them up.
After about 15 minutes in this uncomfortable and cold van, the dog immediately behind me shoved its ar*e right up against the cage face and discharged about a gallon of liquified dog sh*t out throught the mesh causing it to splatter even more...directly onto the back of my head and back!!!
I could feel it running down my neck. The lads opposite initially stared then burst out into fits of laughter and didn't stop for the rest of the journey. I tried to stop the van but the driver couldn't hear me.
By the time we were 'dropped' off, the diahorrea had caked and I was now walking like a cardboard cutout.
The lads ran to open the base up and turn the shower on - only to find it wasn't working!!!! So I had to drive home and ended up showering in full flying kit plus leather jacket in my home shower at 3am in the morning.
How do you explain that to the family in the morning when they wander into the bathroom at 8am????
Apparently the dog had a 'jippy' tummy and had been cra**ing all day.

They have never let me forget that incident to this day:(

I love police dogs (not):ugh:

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

NOW I understand your misery TC !:eek:

[SASless]

TC,

I always heard dogs were good judges of character. Your Observers did not happen to buy Phideaux a big old T-bone steak afterwards did they?:E

[funfinn2000]

Its funny i just seen some dude in a ENG A-Star in San Fran with a mut in the back lifting off . the back seats were covered in animal hair it was awful .
How would it effect the dogs hearing i wonder???

hate to have a dog float past if the engine failed

[Savoia]

Most men married more than a month with quickly identify with the label oft associated with canines as 'man's best friend.' Never have met a dog who didn't sympathise with my side of the story - especially with biscuit in hand!

Wonderful creatures who somehow bring-out the better part of our humanity. No flying operation should be without one!

http://www.nordicrotors.com/images_2/display_2/LN-OGL2011-09-25_11:25:46_display_1275.jpg
Helitrans Ecureuil, LN-OGL, dropping-off snow partridge hunters in the wilderness west of Kiruna near the Swedish-Norwegian border, photo by Jonas Larsson

Ah partridge, almost as pleasant as pheasant!

[fling-wing_1]

TC,

Brilliant story! :ok: Somewhat reminds me of Robyn Davidson's story about trying to get a pet crow and watching one fly over from a tree full of crows and perch on a branch next to a sleeping bird, inch out next to it ever so slowly then start cawing and flapping it's wings loudly. The sleeping bird startled, fell off the branch as the nearby tree of crows erupted into a loud cacophony of flapping wings and loud caws. I've seen too much to not think animals don't have a sense of humor.

Savoia,

Too right! They do bring a good vibe to the operation. Brill pic BTW!!

Mine used to accompany us on utility jobs. She'd always wander off exploring but show up when the heli landed and run round the front of the A-star and stand up on the step so the pilot could scratch her head then off for more exploring.

When we'd shoot off for a bit, we'd return to find her sitting dutifully by the fuel trailer.

In the a/c she'd sit on the rear seats and look out the window for 15-20 min then curl up and go to sleep. Never a bit of trouble!

I hear the doggie ear muffs really do make a diff for your canine companion's comfort though. :}

[Gordy]

Just goes by herself...

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/Pocatello%2010/2010-08-21.jpg

[aeromys]

They can be trained to fly -

The Day Today - Chris Morris - Sheep Dog - YouTube

[toptobottom]

aeromys - classic footage!! :D

I've been taking my English Springers up for years - they're always excited at the prospect, then fall asleep within 2 minutes of lifting. They lie in those plastic dog beds, secured with a normal chest harness. The only time it gets a bit lively is when my wife starts throwing the ball for them..

[Nl_lynx]

I remember the dog standing on the interseat with his front legs, trying to see outside through the front windscreens while we would be maneuvering.... However normally they would be seated in the back with their handler and fastrope down together.
Just as bizarre when you see a guy starting his chainsaw just before fastroping down :)

[Ascend Charlie]

I carried dogs while in the police (well behaved) and in the civil world (boss's mongrel dog bit me once) but the funniest episode was back on the ground, the police bird was stuck in weather so we accepted a lift with a Dog Squad unit.

While stopped at a traffic light, about 4 cars from the front, we observed the occupant of the second car get out, go to the first car and start banging on the windows, roof and bonnet and gesticulating with karate-type moves. Our dog handler slips the pooch loose, and the hound gallops up to the Karate Kid and grabs a mouthful of the family jewels.

The Kid rapidly loses interest in his road rage and tries to defend his manhood. The light changes to green and the front car disappears, the Kid and the pooch move onto the footpath while the handler tries to talk the dog out of a sausage and meatball breakfast. All pedestrians and other drivers were applauding!:ok::{:8

[170']

A somewhat famous/infamous pilot called variously 'one eyed Phil' (yep, only had one) or 'Filthy Phil' flew Lamas for years logging in the PNW and generally had his mutt onboard. He said it was in case he got something in his eye, the dog would start twitching if he got too low..
He (Phil, not the mutt) would land at the service landing to hot refuel and the mutt would bounce out and make a tree stop and then bounce back in...

It was said that the dog bathed frequently! :hmm:

170'

[Droopy]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c173/chestnut1675/droopy001.jpg

Hence the user name..........

[truthinbeer]

I see from the headset comms Droopy you talk to the dog mid-flight and he can answer?

[Dave Ed]

Helidogs - YouTube

[Droopy]

Truthinbeer - yes, but being a Basset he would never do what he was told anyway

[nellycopter]

http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff371/Dazrobson/87e75b7f.jpg

[nellycopter]

It seems big eared lazy dogs like to fly .......
What a coincidence ....

Nelly

[P6 Driver]

Army dogs in NI seemed to be fond of demonstrating flatulence.

[Colibri49]

I have a 40 year old B + W photograph of an Alsatian police dog in the arms of his handler being winched down (or up) from an Alouette III. However I haven't a clue how to copy and post it for you to see.

[Thomas coupling]

Try:

Flickr: Tools to upload and share (http://www.flickr.com/tools)

[Colibri49]

Thanks ThomasC. I've looked at Flickr and they want me to create an account 'n stuff like that, which doesn't appeal. I might try scanning the photo' into my documents and hope that it's possible to copy and paste it from there.

[Savoia]

Posted on behalf of Colibri49 who apologises for the poor image quality:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-qwTGyVE-rRQ/TzuxQDVeg1I/AAAAAAAAH1M/nC2fOmhAjys/s485/Al%2520III%2520winching%2520dog.jpg
Alouette III lifting an Alsatian police dog with handler

[CO280fx]

http://www.m1heli.com/helicopter%20pictures/266501_560851342551_30002615_31847840_2951215_o.jpg

http://www.m1heli.com/helicopter%20pictures/271777_560851292651_30002615_31847839_4926322_o.jpg

http://www.m1heli.com/helicopter%20pictures/241214_10150322060286632_169764461631_10068150_7678915_o.jpg

http://www.m1heli.com/helicopter%20pictures/240406_10150322059811632_169764461631_10068133_286743_o.jpg

[Savoia]

C'mon 280, offer us just a little bit of commentary such as the name of the mutt and some of his/her in-flight habits etc, lol!

[CO280fx]

Kaikoura (Kai) is a very easy passenger. It might as well be a ride in the pickup truck! She has been up several times with doors on and off. I always keep her in the center seat and have the dual controls removed. I am always at the ready to restrain her but she never seems bothered in the slightest. She has grown up around helos and seems very much at ease around them. No issues with tail rotors. If she is roaming about when we come in to land, she approaches from the front and sits clear of the tip path plane until engine off, and is then eager to greet us. I do worry about the in flight noise and her hearing. Anyone know of a good way to protect K9 hearing?

[Peter3127]

You asked .... Mutt Muffs. And yes, they are real. Here they are from the website.

http://www.safeandsoundpets.com/i/Rudder.jpg

Rudder - Australian Shepherd

My name is Terry, and my dog's name is Rudder. My husband, Jason, and I are both pilots - what better to name our back seat dog? Rudder is a mini Australian Shepherd. Since both mom and dad are pilots, he often flies to new adventures and he always wears his Mutt Muffs. Rudder's favorite flying trips end up somewhere that he can go camping, swimming, or both. Cheers, Terry and Rudder

MuttMuffs: for the sophisticated Canine Aviator (http://www.safeandsoundpets.com/index.html)

:ok:

[Gordy]

One of the "brat" who is my driver's dog while I am doing blivet work on a fire a few years back. As you can see, she could care less if it gets loud...

G4Qe9hRbcfI&feature=channel

[Colibri49]

er.................................have I missed something in the video? It seems from the dogs behaviour that she couldn't care less about the helicopter noise above her.

I must be missing some detail; not surprising at my age!

[seaskimmer]

Nah....youre not missing anything colibri, the Americans have an unusual variation of that expression, but they mean the same thing.

[Gordy]

Colibri49

er.................................have I missed something in the video? It seems from the dogs behaviour that she couldn't care less about the helicopter noise above her.

Nope, you did not miss anything---guess is it the use of single or double negatives or something.

She is not bothered by helicopters...she has grown up around this one since she was 6 weeks old. I remember a time she was sleeping under it with her head rested in the skid, and would not move when I started up, so I lifted off and her head slowly slipped off the skid.

She swims in our dip sites--kinda fun trying to fit the bucket in along with her...

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/Pocatello%2010/2010-08-3.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/Pocatello%2010/IMG_20100915_170249.jpg

[Savoia]

SAbCyA2rbxM

Just one of the many reasons to love dogs!

[cfr]

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/22/38856964_c634dc1f29_z.jpg?zz=1

:D

[500e]

Do you parachute them in or do they just jump, seen pictures of them jumping but that one looks like it has attitude :ok:

[wokkaboy]

This is the greatest thread ever!! More photos please of pilot pooches :D

WB

[Bdub]

Some folks are a bit more relaxed....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BrianW/Afghanistan%20Pic%202011/k9rider.jpg

[Savoia]

Well I do apologise for the lack of 'canine with copter' photo but will compensate for this by posting some photos in the near future I have of a German Shepherd in an Ecureuil.

In the meantime have a read of this (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2202509/Loyal-dog-ran-away-home-dead-masters-grave--stayed-years.html) and join with me in celebrating just how wonderful dogs are!

[LOZZ]

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8305/7984826213_bebb9ecdec_b.jpg

[Ian Corrigible]

Dogs outside of helicopters

http://i.imgur.com/jFuVV5s.jpg (http://www.marsoc.marines.mil/News/NewsArticleDisplay/tabid/1213/Article/151307/multipurpose-canines-train-like-they-fight.aspx)

I/C

[Savoia]

Many farm dogs become familiar with their master's voice (or whistle) and follow their instructions. In Sweden however a handful of helicopter pilots have been specially trained to interpret barking in order to follow canine instructions regarding the intricacies of reindeer herding!

QqydyFg98WI

[fijdor]

If you keep them well fed, those heli pilots are quick learners you know.:rolleyes:

JD

[Savoia]

The owner of N150SF recently took his dog to the canine training centre in Swansea.

Photos courtesy of A1K9.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-dUetAVINW5g/UqzNzF7AIHI/AAAAAAAAQJ8/r6Bo8aoDCok/w771-h584-no/N150SF+visiting+A1K9+in+Swansea+Wales.jpg
SA341G N150SF at A1K9's training centre in Swansea

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KP9SE3EV6j0/UqzNzBD81YI/AAAAAAAAQKE/KOQ4hGTOe_Q/w442-h584-no/N150SF+2.jpg
With canine passenger .. Gizmo

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-e_7I64lENto/UqzNzaEozNI/AAAAAAAAQKA/uFVaHEX5ROg/w442-h584-no/N150SF+with+Gizmo+aboard.jpg
Gizmo says .. "Do I really have to go in there?"

[nomorehelosforme]

I showed it to dog lovers and EMS in ATL plenty of smiles, also respect MIL dogs in action!