Multi Crew Co-operation Course (MCC)

[mgbgtv8]

I have been holding back doing an MCC course in the hope that I could use my higher hours to get me a job, and have my next employer foot the bill.

I have now come the conclusion that this may be holding me back, so who is doing the best deal, where and how much was would it cost.

Any advice recommendations would be appreciated.

[152]

Try and get hold of a copy of January's 'Flyer' magazine.

It had a complete list of all approved schools that hold the MCC course.

It also included prices and addresses.

Hope this helps.


152

[This message has been edited by 152 (edited 20 January 2001).]

[mgbgtv8]

Thanks 152

[rolling circle]

Why not just go to the FCL website and get the up to date list? It might not include prices but they seem to change by the week at present.

[KATO]

Try Multi Crew Training in Bournemouth,I had
a great time on their Tristar sim,not sure
of telephone no,but main man is Norman Giffin

--NOT NOW--

['I' in the sky]

Out of curiosity, has anyone noticed any significant improvement in application reponses once they include MCC in their qualifications ?

[KATO]

I completed my MCC course last June,and it has made no difference to me at all,no interviews,no job offers!!!
But they will not grind me down......

--NOT NOW---

[Lear35pilot]

Does anyone have the contact information for 4 Fources? Phone number, web-page or address??

Thanx!

LJ

[SkyCruiser]

Guys,
It didn't make much difference in my applications, but my company required MCC. So what to do?
My input would be DO IT.

SC................

[Luke SkyToddler]

Back in October, one of my colleagues, having spent 9 months with not a sniff of airline interest, went out and did an MCC. He then had 3 interviews in 6 weeks - now happily ensconced in a 146.

I had been trying to resist doing one up to that stage but now I'm saving money like a mad b@stard ...

By the way Lear35, the website is 4forces.co.uk.

Now, question of my own ... does anyone know if it's possible to do an instrument rating renewal as part of an MCC course (or as a bit extra tacked onto the end?) Might as well kill two birds with one stone.

[DB6]

Yep, PM did it at the end of his course, costs extra though and the course doesn't really prepare you for it as it's all autopilot stuff. Might be joining you on that one, by the way. The evidence is compelling.
Cheers DB6

[Barney Stubble]

What is the cheapest MCC around?

Like to hear from anyone who has recently found a good deal, anywhere.

Thanks

Barney

[MJR]

Its worth looking around Barney, MCC's have come down in price over the last 12 months. Even OATS has reduced their course by about £2k.

I used the Flight Centre at WBA £1800, no complaints and most enjoyable.

cheers


MJR:ok:

[DeltaT]

Dont know if they still do, but London Guildhall University used to advertise that they would 'price match' on the MCC course.

[JB007]

And I would recommend London Guildhall, haven't actually been but Capt Tony Banfield is superb....the Simulator is only the BE20 so price isn't too bad..about 2k I think.

[ECHIE]

Try Aeromadrid, www.aeromadrid.com. They have or a Beech B200 or a full flight Airbus 320 simulator for there MCC course.

Greetings,

Theo

[VFE]

If you do your CPL or IR (or it might be both actually) with Multiflight then you get the MCC at £1000. BTW, anyone know what sim Multiflight use for the MCC?

VFE.

[benhurr]

Multiflight use a BE200.

Good course, although I did my CPL and IR with them and my MCC cost £2K - I think I will be ringing them up for a refund!!!

[Luke SkyToddler]

London Guildhall still do price matching, and as for Tony Banfield, well what can you say? Not any old MCC school has the most recently retired Officer Commanding - Battle of Britain Memorial Flight on their books.

He's the kind of person that Flight International invented the 'Total Aviation Person' award for ... any man who's got every model of Spitfire from Mk 1 through 21 on their licence, is OK by me! :ok:

[moggie]

Before you buy the cheapest, read this:


http://www.gapan.org/career/survey.htm

[MorningGlory]

At an airline selection, we were asked who did their mcc in a jet FFS.....?

Now you can call this coincidence if you like and I'm sure there are plenty out there who'll disagree,.... but the ones who hadn't done a jet mcc, didn't pass. Buy a cheap mcc, & you'll kick yourself for it in the long run.

Best of luck with whatever you decide......

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Are you sure the question "who did a Jet EFIS MCC?" was not merely to allow the sim assesment to take allowance?

If candidate A has done his Jet EFIS MCC work then he might well be slightly ahead of the game on a Jet EFIS sim assessment.

It would only be fair to candidate B to allow for this fact and not penalise him.

It is ILLOGICAL for airline recruiters to prefer Jet EFIS MCC candidates. The course is NOT designed as prep for a Jet type rating. It was never INTENDED to act as such. A Jet Orientation Cource IS designed to act as such.

To confuse a JOC with an MCC shows a fundamental misunderstanding on behalf of airline recruiters. So fundamental I doubt they did misunderstand.

WWW

[moggie]

WWW remove the blinkers old chap.

Regardless of whether or not it may be illogical, it is what the potential employer wants. If they specify it then they want it and anyone who does not have it is a disadvantage. QED.

As for what the survey says, it says that the airlines want "candiates to have complete a Jet Introduction Course". Now, we all know that this is not an MCC, but is in fact something larger, more comprehensive and more demanding (handling wise) than an MCC.

So, you could do a nice cheap MCC on as turboprop (or upturned orange crate with dials in it) and then find yourself unemployable until you have bought the more expensive JIC as well or you could do a Jet MCC, add some hours to it and get yourself that MCC and JIC in one. I suggest that the latter approach will be better value for money (although you may regard me as biased).

[CaptAirProx]

I did my MCC on the L1011 sim at EGHH a few years back. Not the cheapest but gave me heavy sim time. It also gave me contacts on the B727 sim in the same building. Both these sims are used for airline interviews. One of which offered me a job.

So I say if you are going to do the MCC pay good money for a good experience. Sod the MCC bulls**t and just lap up the sim time. Excellent fun.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Moggie as you sell MCC and JOC courses then you are well informed I am sure.

But calling an MCC, done on something that looks and handles 'a bit' like a jet, a mini JOC course is like saying the IMC is a cheaper IR.

They are designed for completely different purposes whilst bearing certain similarities.

----

The only people who champion the more expensive motion Jet EFIS MCC courses are either the ones who have done them or the the ones who run them.

----

By all means do a JOC course to make yourself more employable.

But do not try to pass off an expensive MCC as, really, a mini JOC course.

'Cause it ain't.

Cheers

WWW

[moggie]

WWW - you mis-quote me I'm afraid. I was saying that an MCC plus extra (ideally a Jet Introduction Course) is what the airlines want, according to the GAPAN/EPST survey.

What I did not say is that they want a jet MCC - after all, as the MCC has to be flown on autopilot it gives you no handling experience.

If you are only going to do an MCC - do a cheap one. If you want to improve employment prospects, do a JIC or an MCC on a jet device (which does not handle a bit like a jet - ours handles enough like a jet to qualify as a FFS) AND then do enough extra hours to get your handling up to the standards required by the GAPAN respondants.

Well, that's my opinion, anyway (and it just happens to coincide with those airlines who responded to the GAPAN survey - but what would they know?).

[Shamow]

The gapan survey made for interesting reading - especially the part about airlines being reluctant to hire low hours first officers over 30.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If you are only going to do an MCC - do a cheap one. If you want to improve employment prospects, do a JIC or an MCC on a jet device (which does not handle a bit like a jet - ours handles enough like a jet to qualify as a FFS) AND then do enough extra hours to get your handling up to the standards required by the GAPAN respondants.

Moggie - we are in complete agreement then.

MCC is one thing.

JIC/JOC is another.

As long as that clear I have no quibble whatsover. Its the suggestion that an MCC done on a fancy looking "Jet" sim device is in someway a substitute for a JIC/JOC.

--------

I don't agree with people having to do JOC courses out of their own pocket. Its halfway to paying for your own type rating which I also disagree with.

If Daddys a millionaire or you simply made wise property investments and have the cash - go for broke and do an Integrated CPL/IR MCC JOC and 737 rating.

But for Joe Wannabe - draw the line at the MCC.

Cheers

WWW

[Pilot Pete]

The GAPAN survey makes interesting reading, but, and I think this is the crux of it, it appears to ask what the airlines want not necessarily what they will accept .

The majority of jet operators will take F/Os over the age of 30. (just read the numerous threads on these pages over the years)

They would also like their low hours candidates to have a JOC course before they start with them. Reality is that very few have done one.

They also say they want degree level education. Plenty of them accept pilots with a lot less.

So my advice is, if you are 18-20yrs old considering a flying career take on board all that GAPAN says and you won't go far wrong. If you're older and don't have everything they suggest, don't panic, there is still hope..............................

I would be interested to hear from Morning Glory which airline wants you to have done MCC on a jet sim? I personally can't see the advantage as handling was no part of the course when I did it.....................

I would say do the mcc as cheaply as possible ( because I know of no airline that requires a 'jet' mcc - Morning Glory?) and if you save a grand or so by doing this and you get to sim ride stage with a jet operator, do your homework and rent an hour or two on a similar sim and get some one-on-one handling practice and instruction........worked for me. Alternatively if you are ace to base as a pilot, just pocket the saving and have a holiday!

PP

[MorningGlory]

PP,

Check your PM's.

MG.

[sdryh]

Just a little question to put out there to all you Ppruners who have had experience of the MCC or are about to undertake this.... Where would you advise to go to do the MCC course?? Parc aviation I hear is good, but I have been training long enough to know that all places have good points and bad points, it is just a question of more plus than minus points.

Another question would be, to apply for positions without the MCC or go and do the MCC first??

So many ideas.... can anybody with experience of this please pass on there wisdom?

Many thanks

sdryh

[flash8]

You'll need to do the MCC sooner or later, why not sooner?

[YYZ]

I did mine at Multiflight at LBA, used the King Air sim, good experienced instructors from a Jet2 base captain to retired captains of other airlines.

Was £1000 if you did the CPL/IR with them but I think it’s going up to £1500 in April? Don't know how much it will be if you are only going to do the MCC, was £2000.

As for when to get it, now, no expiry date but some company’s state you must have one before you apply so go for it?

YYZ

[JB007]

I would go and get one before applying...I didn't have one when I got the call for a job and had just under 2 weeks notice to complete it before my type-rating started!!!

BCFT managed to sort me out and we had a really good few days on the L10-11 sim...instructor was barking mad but added to the fun!! Not the cheapest though but really enjoyed it..

[llesson]

I used multiflight at LBA too, very happy with the course. Get it done as soon as possible. I waited and was offered a job and had 2 week also to get it done before my type rating...

[sdryh]

Thanks all who replied.. I think I am going to take your advice and get the MCC first before taking the plunge and applying for the first job in the airlines, fingers crossed!!

Where I will do the MCC is still up to debate... I did my PPL with Multiflight many years ago and found them to be great, but I was hoping to do the MCC in a 737 or airbus simulator in order to get a little experience of something that alot of airlines use... I may change my mind on this matter.

Again thanks, if you have any thoughts on which school then your views would be of great help

Many thanks

Sdryh

[Whispering Giant]

Did mine with BCFT on the L1011 sim at BOH - greattttttttttttttt fun and a great and extreamly experienced sim instructor.
Only let down a couple of days with the Sim beeing unservicable - but that was made up too us with a bit of a refund on the course price and a couple of extre hours in the sim for whenever we want to use them and we also got to go in the 747-200 sim as well.
It prepared me well and was a greatttttttttt experiance for doing my sim course.

brgds
W.G

[no sponsor]

Heard good things about the Parc MCC course. You get some good hands on flying using the type of SIM that many airlines use for their assessments.

I did mine with Jetlinx using BAs 757 full motion simulator at Cranebank. I found the course very helpful, and probably one of the most enjoyable experiences in my flying training career. The MCC really was hugely interesting, and it is a good bridge from the single pilot world we all come from.

I learnt loads, had a good time, and I even got my beer bought for me. What more can you ask for?

[finals24]

Definitely consider Jetlinx. An excellent course given mainly by current BA flight crew on either the Cranebank (BA) A320 or B757 sims.

I did mine on the A320 and got a good insight into Airbus EFIS....absolutely brilliant!

The downside is the cost, I guess you pay your money and take your choice.

I agree with other posts, many potential employers want to see the MCC box ticked.

[pilotpaul]

Flight Centre at Wolverhampton are very good. (www.hgfc.co.uk)

chief mcc instructor is ex-raf and has excellent reputation, other guys who do the MCC are ex-BA training captain and another is current F.O.

believe they are currently doing it for £1950 inc vat.

[sawotanao]

I went to Bournemouth on the Tristar. Great instructors and a good insight into the two...sorry three crew environment! Born'th in the evenings wasn't too bad either;) You'll enjoy it, especially after that IR business.

[1800-how'smyflying]

I'm doing my MCC at the moment with Parc in Dublin Airport. It's a very well run course, and the 20 hrs in the sim are done on the 737-200 sim in Dublin, which as somebody mentioned a few airlines are using to for assessments. I'd recommend it.
Their website is http://www.parcaviation.aero
Good luck, 1800-

[Rock Lobster]

I would definately recommend Jetlinx, a good operation run by current line pilots. Completed mine last month on the A320 sim, and although it does cost more than most other MCC's, felt it was worth it. They also run Jet Orientation courses, if you've already done an MCC and fancy trying a level D sim.

[Turkish777]

You'll probably do your MCC in the Concorde.....:E

[DragStrut]

hi there cant reccomend BCFT highly enough and no i dont work for them.

Had a brilliant time with them and Tony (instructor) excellent teaching manner with just the right mix of info and fun.

whole mcc course is more like a LOFT course preparing you for your next level of training.

would definately advocate taking the mcc in a full jet sim just to get used to speeds and handling of a larger jet.

I have pictures of the whole setup & facilities if you want to pm me!

Ben Walters

[Spitfire2]

Hi guys,
Anybody with a good plan for the MCC somewhere in the UK ? or anywhere else in europe ?
Ta

[Krystal n chips]

Hi guys,
Anybody with a good plan for the MCC somewhere in the UK ? or anywhere else in europe ?
Ta

There's several places I'd like to deposit the senile old sods :E being a Lancashire supporter---but we're probably talking about an entirely different MCC of course ;) --well you did ask !

[rudekid]

I think they should take the super-sub rule out of the one-day game for a start. Allow two bouncers per over and open up the long room for a members only lap dancing venue twice a week.

As regards your second point, I think it would be difficult to move Lord's to anywhere else in Europe, although that nice American had a go with that bridge thingy. Didn't he like aeroplanes too?

Any takers...;)

[rudekid]

K n C

Beat me to it! Damn & blast. At least it was another Lancastrian who was a bit quicker!

:{

[ShyTorque]

This one is the real MCC:

http://www.themotorcyclingclub.org.uk/

They already have a plan. Only one bouncer allowed, as many cars only have one passenger seat. I like the idea of lap-dancers though; preferably once per lap :ok:

[vetflyer]

Any suggestions on choice of MCC course , looking for one directed more to small turboprops rather than BIG Jet.

comments ?

thanks

[Troy McClure]

Did mine early last year at Multiflight, Leeds. They use a King Air sim.

[Piece of Cake]

I did my MCC course at the Flight Centre at Wolverhampton last April, they use a Piper Cheyenne TurboProp sim (it's an FNPT II I think). Instructor was excellent, price very reasonable. It doesn't matter what sim you did your MCC in, its the quality of the instruction that is the main thing.
Got a TurboProp job flying a month after MCC It definitely helped having done the course when it came to the type rating. (and I saved over a grand when I looked at some of the other MCC providers... :D )

[Cutoff]

I also did mine at Wolverhampton, I found it very enjoyable, of course it is a good price (when compared to other courses) and the instructor was good, they use alot of BA SOPS so it is quite realistic.

[leading edge!]

The above is good advice BUT..... I would be tempted to pay the extra few quid and do the Mcc on jet type ie OAT with their generic 737/4 etc or several others FTO's. The reason is that many airlines will require you to do a sim check on jets (eg BA, BACX/BACON being a few). There will always be ppruners that will differ in opinion, but I think the higher speeds, spool up times etc were an advantage for me to know about. I also found that the notes (incl jet t/o briefings) were of an excellent standard too....but who am I to know, I still wait for a pointy end job!
Regards and good luck
L E!

[Cutoff]

Good points LE now doubt. However, I found that the turboprop sim was fast enough so that you could concentrate on learning the CRM stuff which is the point of the MCC afterall. I had a sim check on a 1-11 and passed this, I practised on a 727 beforehand to get used to a jet - I spose it is horses for courses, what was right for me will be wrong for the next guy.

However, there are no grades on an MCC, it is the certificate that is important, if money is no object do it on an expensive jet, but the certificate will still say MCC attended, nothing more.

[straightnotlevel]

four forces at heathrow, king air sim, was several yrs ago now tho, good value, top instructors, most of them worlds fav guys

[Hufty]

You should think about doing it on a jet, yes the point of the course is the multicrew stuff but getting some handling practice on a bigger aircraft is VERY useful for a sim ride. You will get the MCC element wherever you go and the jet experience is a bonus.

But as said before, hourses for course. I did it in a jet and was very glad I did.

[carbonfibre]

Completed MCC on the full motion Tristar at Bournmouth through BCFT, It was worth the extra £400 that you pay for the generic FNPT11. Excellent instruction and real Jet environment.

Again only the certificate is of relevance so take your choice, for me the Full motion jet sim was also great learning on top of the course.

:ok:

[vetflyer]

Thanks for comments , given my age & lack of hours/ skill, a TP sim problably will be fast enough! (also unlikey to get jet job)

SNL do you have contact details for 4 Forces ( did they go bust? or am i just confused)

Cheers

VF

[Island Hopper]

Hi
Have you thought of FlightSaftey at Farnborough?
They are running an MCC course on the Saab 340 full motion sim.

IH

[Seamus_12]

Not sure if this is the correct Forum to post this in but since this is where alot of recent post MCC people hang out its worth a try.

Doing an MCC in a 737-200. What i'm after is and idea of what the pre take off safety brief should be. Is it basically below V1 you stop with a problem and after V1 you take off no mater what? The phrasing is what i'm after.

Also a departure brief and a landing brief - is this just reading throught the plate making sure both pilots know what will happen?

Thanks.

[LKMflyboy]

I'd recommend the MCC course at London Metropolitan Uni. It's a good course conducted on a Kingair 200 - you also get a great deal if you can fill a spare place at the last minute.

I think spending extra to fly a jet sim is a waste for the MCC - much better to get some jet sim time when you have a sim check coming up... remember it could be months or years after MCC before you get that elusive interview!

[TRISTAR1]

The pre take off briefing should be given to you on the MCC course. It is pretty standard for all airline ops. Again the plate briefing should also be given on the course.

Enjoy

[ColeTrickle]

The "Safety CRM and QA" forum did a thread on this named "Takeoff Safety Brief - Landing Equivalent?".

It's in part about landing brief but some take-off briefings are shown

[Sky Goose]

Hi Seamus

By the sounds of things youre doing your MCC with Parc in Dublin ?

Theyll send you the notes you need before you arrive in Dublin, if you are super keen I can dig out my old notes and post the briefs on here if you like...but youll have plenty time to learn them before you get there.

Great course, its all done without the autopilot so brush up on your instrument scan if you can (MS Flightsim did the trick for me), and enjoy it.:ok:

[vetflyer]

Island Hopper

Do you have FS contact details , as failed on google?

Thanks

[Island Hopper]

Sure, just type in 'FlightSafety Farnborough' and you get this link:
http://www.flightsafety.com/farn_home.php
The telephone number is:
01252 554 500
Hope this helps,
IH

[Baseturn]

i would reccomend the AQC at CTC, quite pricey but without doubt excellent prep for a sim:ok: asessement

[carbonfibre]

Vetflyer

Dont think it will matter too much where you do it as this course is very enjoyable.

It is a matter of choice to do it on Jet / prop, I do not hear any bad things about any MCC course.

Just for info though I'm no spring chicken but had a great time on my course, Its all about working together as a team rather than the flying(but that helps) as all through our training phases we have been single pilot. Im sure you know that, but whatever you choose, have fun.

:ok:

[FougaMagister]

Atlantic Flight Training at Coventry also do an MCC course on the King Air 200 FNPT II, priced £1,995 inc. VAT last I heard :ok: One course every two weeks.

Cheers :cool:

[moggiee]

Typically it may be something like (based upon, but not 100% identical to) BA 737:

"Up to 80kts we'll call "STOP" for any problem. Between 80kts and V1 we will only call "STOP" for any Fire, Engine Failure, severe handling difficulty, obviously blocked runway or pilot incapacitation.

If "STOP" is called I will pull the power/thrust levers to idle, apply maximum braking, reverse thrust as appropriate and bring the aeroplane to a halt on the runway centreline. You will deploy the speedbrake/check auto speedbrake deployment, monitor my braking and take control once we reach taxy speed.

When stationary, you will apply the parking brake, diagnose the nature of the problem and command me to action the appropriate checklist actions. I will complete the actions required whilst you liaise with ATC and cabin crew and if you order an evacuation we will complete the evacuation checklist.

After V1, the take off will be continued. We will rotate at the normal speed, and aim to climb at V2 to V2+25kt to acceleration altitude of 1500' agl (insert actual figure here). We will retract the gear when we have a positive climb rate and then when the aeroplane is under control we will identify the failure and carry out the required memory actions. No further drills will completed until after the acceleration profile.

We will level at acceleration altitude, accelerating to 210kt, retracting flaps on schedule (depends upon T/O flap setting). At 210kt we will set maximum continuous power, initiate a climb at 210kt to MSA and then complete the QRH checklist during the climb.

Our further intention is to return for an ILS/divert to ......

Any questions?"

As I say, based upon BA 737 but not entirely. Technical aspects will vary, of course, and some of the actions will depend upon the company SOP - due to variables such as who handles the power levers etc.

Still, that should give a flavour.

[airmiles]

I need some recommendations for where to do the MCC. I am sure some, if not a lot, of you have some good tips. I have e-mailed some schools and training centres, but there is nothing like you lot out there to get the real views! So come on don't be shy! :ok:

[alberto86]

FTE in Jerez offers an MCC course on a HS 125-800 full motion simulator.

The price is 4000euros (very competitive) including full board and accomodation!

[ColeTrickle]

Hi all,

has anybody done his MCC with FlightSafety in Farnborough on their Saab SF340 sim?

Thanks in advance for answers.

Cole

[Lamboo1]

Hi everybody!

I am interested in Finding a school that offers an MCC course using an Airbu 32X sim. I have tried Aerofan , and i didnt get any Reply From SAS Training or Alitalia. Could anybody Recommend a good MCC school with an airbus sim!

Thanks

Chris

[scroggs]

MCC is about the way you act and react with others on a flightdeck, not about the aeroplane. The simulator is simply a tool of context, and the type represented is irrelevant to the content of the course. Go by the reputation of the training provider, not with the hardware they use.

Scroggs

[TurboJ]

Whilst I fully agree with Scroggs comments, in this competitve day and age its still good to get as much jet time as and when you can;

I was happy to pay the extra for my MCC to get the jet experience even though the last few hours was all automated route flying.

I believe JetLinx Flight Training do MCC courses on both the B757 and A320.

www.jetlinx.co.uk

Have fun....TJ

[scroggs]

in this competitve day and age its still good to get as much jet time as and when you can;

I'm not sure what you think this mythical 'jet time' will do for you. For a start, it's not jet time, it's simulator time. As you don't hold a rating on the aircraft type, and nor are you being instructed in order to gain a rating, I'm pretty sure you can't claim anything for the sim time you achieve. It is purely a training tool. Othere than the fact that it gives the atmosphere of a flight, and imparts a useful amount of tension due to you not knowing much about the represented aircraft, you could do the course on two chairs in a classroom!

The only reason companies use modern aircraft simulators is that they can charge you disproportionately more money for them. No employer gives a damn whether you did your MCC in an A320 sim or a Lancaster sim!

Scroggs

[TurboJ]

I'm not sure what you think this mythical 'jet time' will do for you.

As so called 'wannabes' we are constantly reminded how 'inexperienced' we are and how we lack any 'jet' experience. Whats the harm in trying to get some jet time or sim time, whatever you want to call it, as part of a course requirement ?

My MCC on a B737 consisted of a number of hours of general handling along with manual flying of ILS and VOR approaches, with automated route flying being introduced at the end.

Several weeks after my MCC I had a sim check for a jet job which I passed.

The practise in the sim on my MCC held me in good stead for the sim ride which not only assessed my flying skills but also the CRM aspect of things.

If I had of done my MCC in an arm chair in a classroom I don't believe I would have been successful.

No employer gives a damn whether you did your MCC in an A320 sim or a Lancaster sim!


What about an arm chair ?? Where can I find a Lancaster sim?? :mad:

[scroggs]

My point is you must not choose your MCC provider on the basis of the sim they use. You can get your MCC for less money from a trainer that uses a cheaper training aid and put the money saved towards flying instructional time in a 737/A320 sim if that's what turns you on. Whatever course you choose to take, concentrate on the quality of the training, not the type of box. If the box at the best trainer available happens to represent a modern jet, that may be a bonus (in your eyes!), but it should not be the criterion by which you choose your MCC.

Scroggs

[Flopsie]

Scroggs is 100% correct. This issue came up several months ago in our FTO so subsequently I called around 20 European operators and asked the TMs if they would have any preference toward someone who had done MCC in a 737/A320. The answer in all but 1 case was that if anything, they would prefer an MCC done in a generic turboprop (Dash 8, ATR), as the handling skills for this type are somewhat more difficult than an A320. But the main point is that the MCC is not a type rating course, it is, to quote LASORs:

"The aim of this course is to train pilots in the functioning
of the flight crew as a team of co-operating members
led by the pilot-in-command on multi-pilot aircraft, and
its completion is required to endorse an initial multi-pilot
aircraft type on to a licence. This course may be
completed as part of the approved ATPL integrated
course, as a stand-alone course or as part of the initial
multi-pilot type rating training course."

Go with a provider who gives you high quality instruction and a cheaper simulator option.

[TurboJ]

I fully agree with both Flopsie and Scroggs.

My point is simply that if I am going to have a check ride on a jet sim, which I did relatively quickly after completing my MCC, I might as well give myself a head start by flying a jet sim on a 20hr MCC course.

All the instructors on my MCC course were ex RAF and/or retired heavy jet captains and the instruction I got was second to none.

TJ

[Frank Furillo]

TurboJ if you want some jet time on your MCC have a look at BCFT in Bournemouth, they use a Tristar sim. The price is reasonable, or it was when I was there. The A320 is more of a automated machine than a regual Jet, when you get a sim check you can be sure it will be in a donkey, Old 727, 737-200 etc the airbus will not help you in any way, it does not have manual trim for gods sake!!!!!!.

[Sir Norman Fry]

May I suggest you have a look at PARC Aviation in Dublin. They do their MCC course on a B737-200. It's still a Jet but all analog displays and you have to fly it using your own skills and not using the Auto Trim and Auto Thrust helping you out (it doesn't have it for a start). I fly the A320 and trust me when I say this, it will do you no favours practising on one of these fancy sims when it's airline sim check time!

Good luck anyway! :ok:

[markymojo]

So, in conclusion, Jetlinx is the only company we are aware of that provides an MCC course on an Airbus, but PARC Aviation in Dublin might be worth a look at also. Sorry, I just went into IMC for a moment!

[finals24]

For what it's worth Jetlinx is an excellent course run by highly experienced (current) BA and Monarch flight crew. You therefore get an insight into the SOP's of these organisations as well as the A320 or B757 cockpit and systems.

I agree that the course is primarily about MCC and to this end it is first rate, but in my opinion you do get something extra by being exposed to a modern jet with EFIS. Indeed the last session consists of LOFT where you get experience of hand flying the aircraft with FD and Autothrottle switched off.....quite a challenge!

[no sponsor]

Some MCC courses will offer the ability to build in some JOC time. I think this is a good thing, and as others have said, it might do you well for a sim-check if you are lucky to have one soon after the course. Parc has a good bit of JOC stuff thrown into their MCC. I did mine with Jetlinx, and while the focus is on MCC, there is time to enable you to get some JOC experience.

I found the prices for FNPT II sims and FMS not too far apart, so it seemed worthwhile to pay a little extra and have limited JOC added to the MCC. Besides, after my IR I felt like rewarding myself. I had a great time and learnt loads. It was a far more useful course than I had realised.

[scroggs]

I fly the A320 and trust me when I say this, it will do you no favours practising on one of these fancy sims when it's airline sim check time!

Good luck anyway! :ok:

Agreed. The more modern the aircraft, the less difficult it is to fly. That's one of the reasons airlines rarely use modern types for their sim checks. Many use 737-200s, BA I believe are still using the BAC-111, Virgin and Cathay used to use a B747-200 (Virgin no longer does a sim check). All of these types are a lot more difficult to operate than a current-production jet, and have more in common with a Seneca than they do with an A320!

You may enjoy having a go at a modern type (and I'm sure that's the real reason you want to do so) but don't expect it to help on any sim assessment.

Scroggs

[mad_jock]

You really would be better at getting in contact with WWW about his MCC on a couple of soap boxes and a couple of brooms. If you really want to be in a airbus put the broom next to your leg and if you don't put them between your legs.

[Lamboo1]

Dear All,

Thanks For your contribution! Greatly Appreciated :)

Most of you would be saying why on earth does this jackass want to get an MCC, and an MCC on an Airbus! Well the Answer is Pretty Simple. I Intend on getting a Job with Air Malta who are currently converting to an all 'bus Fleet!

All my Ground School is done so in my spare time i got my hands on an airbus Type rating CD and manual and studied it a bit. I have also done the same for the 733, as i was using the FCOM and QRH for Many many JAR ATPL exams. I could Safely Say that the G/S is more or less a basic 737 classic type rating all the way don to the Load Sheets!

I understand that the MCC is a course that deals with CRM, however if my chance of getting in with airmalta is goodish, and eventually d a type rating on a 32X, would u still think it to be a good iidea to go ahead with it?

Also would anybody know what Air Malta use as a sim for their interview / Check out?

Many thanks and kind regards
Chris

[scroggs]

Go back and read through this topic again. I honestly don't think you've understood a word that's been said.

Scroggs

[zooloflyer]

Your last question is what it's all about...on what sim will the company evaluation take place?
Chances are that your evaluation will be on an older type 737-200, 727 etc because the A320 sims are fully booked months in advance and the old generation sims are just standing there fully written off.
Be sure to find out because it would be a rather big surprise if you had payed 10.000€ for an MCC on A320 and don't perform very well on the evaluation session.
It's a fact that the evaluations are more and more done on 737-3's with basic automation and digital HSI & ADI but there it probably stops.
And don't be fooled by buying an MCC just for the definition of it. CRM's there and you will get the certificate anyway.
Try to fly raw data as much as you can and see it as a tool towards your company evaluation. Just the next step after your ME-IR.

And hey - one step at a time, good to be prepared for a TR but keep your general knowledge up to date to first pass the inteview!

Good luck!

[BillieBob]

As usual with the MCC debate, as with OAT vs FTE, integrated vs modular, etc., there is, unsurprisingly, a great deal of personal opinion and little or no evidence. It is simply not possible for the recipient of any training to know whether the course that he has completed is better or worse than any other since, at best, he has only second-hand information and, at worst, biased rumour on which to make a comparison.

In the case of the MCC course, it is only the TRIs and SFIs who deal with the product of the modular MCC training providers that have the required objective evidence to make a comparison. On the evidence of the dozens of courses for first MPA type ratings that I have conducted over the past few years, it is clear that it makes absolutely no difference whether or not the MCC course is completed on a jet STD. As Scroggs has said previously - it is the quality of instruction that is paramount and it is only this that should influence the choice of training provider.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but, when seeking to spend large amounts of money in the cause of a career, it is probably better to rely on facts.

Oh, and by the way Lamboo1, the MCC course has almost nothing to do with CRM!

[dartagnan]

I did mine(MCC) with jetlinx on the A320, and it was excellent.
I chose the a320, because I wanted to try a "real sim"(5-6 axis, efis screen,...)
I simply loved it, and our sim instructor was top.
we enjoyed the sim fom 7-11pm every day of the week.

the sim is great, and this plane is really relax to fly.
when you enter in the sim, it is another world!
my advice: go for it, it worths the extra money you will pay.

[Flopsie]

I did mine(MCC) with jetlinx on the A320, and it was excellent.
I chose the a320, because I wanted to try a "real sim"(5-6 axis, efis screen,...)
I simply loved it, and our sim instructor was top.
we enjoyed the sim fom 7-11pm every day of the week.

the sim is great, and this plane is really relax to fly.
when you enter in the sim, it is another world!
my advice: go for it, it worths the extra money you will pay.

Hmmm.......

I see from your location that you're definitely from another planet......

[Sky Wave]

Whilst I can echo dartagnan's comments you do have to heed what others have said.

Firstly the Jetlinx course is first rate and great fun. I went on the A320 with a guy who had already completed the Oxford MCC (he wanted some JOT on the A320 as he had a job lined up with BMI). He told me first hand that in his opinion the Jetlinx course was far superior to the Oxford one. You cannot ignore the fact that these pilots are current BA and Monarch line pilots, they are using level D sims, they use a set of SOP's which are very close to real world operations and they treat a number of the sessions as LOFT exercises.
The price is £3650 so it's not that much more expensive than far inferior courses. (and it's a hell of a lot cheaper than virtual aviation’s £2000 for 4 hours sim time). Secondly there are a number people who have taken cheaper courses and then paid Jetlinx for sim practice/JOT training working out more expensive in the long run.

However

As has been said don't expect it to help you with sim selection because using the A320 will not help at all. Firstly the A320 has autotrim, and a completely glass cockpit and unless you get a sim check on an A320 it will be of no benefit whatsoever. Secondly, you do very little hands on flying in the MCC course. The flight directors will be on throughout, you'll put the autopilot in almost as soon as you've cleaned up and you won't take it out until established on the glide. If time permits you'll get to do a bit more hands on flying, possibly with raw data but only when the course content has been completed.

In summary I'd recommend the Jetlinx course to anyone, and if you want some JOT practice do it on the 757 rather than the A320 as the 757 is much closer to the sort of thing you'll have a sim check on, but do not just do it to practice for a sim check, do it because it’s a great experience and a superb way to finish off your training.

[low n' slow]

I did my MCC at SAS FA at Arlanda, Sweden.
Training was done on a Fokker F28 FFS. Although the visual system was strictly night-flying with only black and white shades, it was definately for real when we got windsheared or in a deepstall...
I've had the good fortune to fly the A340/330 sim as well (at another occasion) and comparing these two airplanes, I believe that training on an old relic goes more hand in hand with the previous IR training where there's no EFIS or FMS... Therefore all focus can be shifted towards the CRM and getting used to the higher speeds involved. Also, traditional instrumentation makes for a different way of arriving at situational awareness which I believe enhances the training in respect to SA cues and callouts. Although, I haven't flown the A32X in a training situation, so I guess I cant really comment.
SAS FA is probably not the your best alternative considering that its far away for you, but I have only good things to say about their training and the quality of the instructors.
If you can, try to get hold of an old sim. They' might not be around for long and if you're succesful in this career, you'll be flying EFIS the rest of your life...
At any rate, the MCC was the most rewarding training I have ever done and wherever you end up doing the course, enjoy yourself! It's good fun!
regards/ LnS

[bolty_1000]

Does anyone have any first hand experience of MCC and selection for first job?

Im trying to decide whether or not to do my MCC on a King Air or not and am trying to find out if what sim you do the MCC on holds weight in the interview process or whether its just a tick in the box qualificaion!

Any advice from first hand experience would be appreciated!

[Mercenary Pilot]

Its just a tick in the box. If money is an issue, go for the cheapest.

[Zulu Tango]

Go for a Jet as it is going to be your first experience before you do a TR or even have a sim assesment for a job.

BCFT in Bournemouth are good on the Tristar L1011.

I did mine there in Jan and it was excellent...Ive recently completed a 737 TR and it was a doddle after flying that beast.

[Gillespie]

Have you tried selection for the CTC ATP scheme? phase 4 of their selection is the AQC, or airline qualification course. this contains an MCC. If successful they'll place you with 1 of 6 airlines.

Good luck.

[zooloflyer]

Gillespie definitely has a point there. AQC is the way to go but of course depends on what you wanna do afterwards - if you wanna go fly a turbo prop, go for the king stuff. If you wanna go for an airline jet job, you should go for an airline preparation course, like the AQC - more of an MCC combined with a jet conversion - this gives you bonus points upon recruitment! Downside - more expensive.

Good luck!

[Cutoff]

It is a tick box to have, I am now employed in a TP and all that was needed for that was the certificate, where and on what it was done was never discussed.
I see what people say about getting some experience on a jet first though, although most of my MCC was flown on autopilot, a sim assessment will not be, and nor will all of a type rating, of far more use for both of those will be ensuring that your scan is up to speed to be honest, well from my experience anyway. The MCC does introduce you to profiles though and learning settings, checklist management and calls etc.

If money is no object do it on a jet, if it is tight then do it at the cheapest place and spend any spare on a couple of hours in a jet sim nearer the time of a type rating or sim assessment. And keep your scan up!

[bolty_1000]

Thanks guys for all of your thoughts, they have been a great help!!!!

Im fortunate enough to have already had a few hours sim time in both a 727 and the tristar so the mcc really does appear to be a tick in the box qual. so looks like the cheap option will be ok.

safe flying

[Mercenary Pilot]

Just to add...

Gillespie mentioned the CTC scheme, I would seriously look into it if you havn't allready. It offers probably the best way to get into the RHS at a large airline.

Otherwise, have fun with the king-air sim :ok:

[geraldn]

Have you tried selection for the CTC ATP scheme? phase 4 of their selection is the AQC, or airline qualification course. this contains an MCC. If successful they'll place you with 1 of 6 airlines.
Good luck.
Good advice regarding CTC ,
however it would be wise to do an MCC course before applying with CTC since if you are not succesfull in the first 3 phases you will still need to do one to get an F-ATPL, apart from the fact that it will give you a headstart for when you do it with CTC.

[zooloflyer]

although most of my MCC was flown on autopilot

Avoid doing that at ALL TIMES!! It's all about basic flying skills these days at the sim evaluations! Procedures can be learnt to any normal ATPL CPL guy. I see recruitment going even back to single engine cessna's for skill selection tests instead of waisting expensive sim time!

Use the time to the max, you will have paid for it anyway - mention it to your instructor - the CRM/procedures thing is just a formality, you will learn that in TR training later on.

Worked for me but depends very much from the instructor.

[BillieBob]

OK zooloflyer, having shown that you have a fundamental lack of understanding of what the MCC course is all about, let's get back to the discussion.

The MCC course is defined by JAR-FCL as a non-technical course and the UK CAA, for one, insist that as much as possible is flown with the autopilot engaged. If the STD is hand flown, as zooloflyer suggests, the real point of MCC training cannot be made.

It is clear to me, having to deal with the product of MCC courses on a daily basis, that the most important factor by far is the quality and currency of the instructors. Whether the course is conducted on a turbo-prop, a modern, glass cockpit jet or a super-annuated museum piece like the L-1011 makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.

If you select your MCC training provider based on the quality of instruction and the currency of the instructors and ignore the type of aircraft that the STD seeks to emulate, you will not go far wrong

[EGAC_Ramper]

I'd certainly go for an MCC provider that provides as much hands on flying as possible.

Some consider a tick in the box BUT after having done the MCC in March I'd say it is a MORE tha invaluable tool and a great learning insight.!!:D


Regards :ok:

[zooloflyer]

Dear BillieBob,

I am just advising after my own experiences - I had the luck of having an old time airline captain - ex Sabena - so looots of standard procedures and cockpit management! Don't worry.

I also had the luck to get through the simulator evaluations and I spoke to some guys who were autopilot addicted and most of them didn't pass the basic flying sim test.

I guess that if you can't handle the CRM & handflying during an MCC, times will get tough during a TR training which, these days is a mere 15 hrs more than the MCC...glad I was able to fly some ILS's and circuits during my MCC - couldn't have done it without my prior experience.

JAA may be this or that - recent airline CV selection has been done on EFIS MCC or non EFIS MCC because - unfortunately that's just reality to get a job and that's what it is all about - not?

Good luck!

[jayc004]

Ok guys. Having only 2 days until i do my IR test, and finish all the nightmare training, i need to find somewhere to do my MCC.
I'm looking for info on a few places.
Coventry - Air Atlantique = With their brand new CRJ sim, they do a MCC/JOC for £5,000.
CTC - The world famous AQC. Has anyone done the "new" selections for it, or are they still the same as the PILAPT that you do for the zero-hero course? £7,000 with a view to a job at the end most likely easyjet.
Parc - Ireland and the hunting ground for Ryanair. £3,500 i think isnt it for just the MCC. Alot of guys getting taken up into 737-800 jobs from there, but Ryanair have stopped recruiting for a while have they not??
Bond - Astreus = £4,000 for an MCC/JOC on 737-400. Dont really know anything about then to be totally hinest apart from the package they offer for £28,000 that is the full 373-800 type and 100 hours online.

Any help guys or ideas of other places to go would be brilliant, and anyone with information on the places listed above, that have finished training and could give us newbies some advice inorder to make an educated decision as to where to spend the hard earned.

Thanks for looking, and good luck to everyone!!

[BlueRobin]

Coventry - Air Atlantique

The independent Atlantic Flight Training if you please!

www.flyaft.com

They've been of late working hard particularly Ric on getting their CRJ sim certified by the CAA. Not sure where the process stands at the moment.

[moggiee]

Are you adamant that it must be a jet? If you are prepared to consider a good value turboprop one, PM me for details.

[Barty1]

Can anyone recommend a decent school to do an MCC? Have heard mixed things about London Met uni but it seems to be the cheapest. Have also considered Bournemouth and Parc in Dublin.

Is an MCC just another tick in the box or does it make a difference where u do it?

Advice would be much appreciated

[wbryce]

the MCC is another tick in the box essentially but its a great time to get sim experience and learn how you will operate in a multi crew enviroment.

When you do sim rides for potential employment then ideally the time during your MCC will help you dearly - so maybe spending that little bit extra on a full motion sim is worth it? just my opinon...I've read some very good reviews on Parc MCC course and don't think you can go much wrong with them.

[tonyjl]

I just finished my ME / IR training in Greece and now I have to find a good place to do the MCC course.

Does anyone know any courses in Europe that have a good reputation? Which places should be avoided?

Does it matter which simulator the course is completed on?

Any other ideas or hints?

[low n' slow]

I can highly recommend SAS Flight Academy in Stockholm. Very well planned course and very good instructors.

/LnS

[David_Lid Air]

SAS Flight Academy :).

Their course is very instructive.

[High Wing Drifter]

BillieBob,
The MCC course is defined by JAR-FCL as a non-technical course and the UK CAA, for one, insist that as much as possible is flown with the autopilot engaged. If the STD is hand flown, as zooloflyer suggests, the real point of MCC training cannot be made.
Logic tells me that when raw data hand flying and OEI in a jet sim, the point of the MCC is more pertinant than ever.

I regareded the MCC as an opportunity to get sneak peak at what hopefully lies in store for me.

[Rob's Dad]

Firstly, apologies to the Mods as I know the MCC topic has been done many many times but I've tried the search engine in both basic and advanced format and amazingly it keeps coming back with no trace of 'MCC' or the companies below!

I've narrowed (I think) the choice of MCC provider down to 3: Jetlinx, Multiflight and European Aviation. My ideal requirements would be a MCC no longer than 8 days, back to back, full motion, glass cockpit sim. None of the above quite meet all those requirements and there is a wide range of costs from GBP2400 - 3550. So, does anyone have first hand experience of any of these companies and would you recommend them?

Finally, anyone looking for a MCC partner in early May 07?

[Dan 98]

Hi Rob's Dad,
I did the Jetlinx course in June last year on the B757-200 at Cranebank. Overall I would say it was well run and organised, the instructors were experienced, 3 were from BA and the other 2 flew for Monarch.

I did the ground school over a weekend in Gloucester and then went into the sim the following week for 5 evenings.
It was relaxed and pretty informal, to be honest the MCC is a tick in the box and you will get out of it what you put into it. On the ground school they give you a manual, if you go through that and learn the procedures and where all the buttons are, it will save time in the sim and allow more time to fly rather than the instrutor explaining where things are.

My only slight gripe was that they were quite into automation so you actually got quite limited experience of hand flying bar take off and the last 3-4 miles on the ILS. It is a very different beast when you turn the Auto Throttle / Flight directors off as you will if you go for a sim assessment for a job. There is however a session at the end after the last flight if time permits where you maybe get 45mins to practice hand flying, but I would have enjoyed more of this personally. For example Parc aviation in Dublin dont touch the autopilot on their course, it is all raw data by hand, which is good practice when it comes to getting a job.

To sum up, I would recommend Jetlinx, it was hugely enjoyable flying in the 757 for a week. However be aware doing it on a jet is not going to help you get a job over doing it on an ATR or a King Air etc...So if you are short of cash save the £1,000 and use that for sim preparation when you get that 1st interview.
Hope that helps
Dan98

[Shorehambythesea]

Which school would be the best for the mcc course as I know of one in the north where I am actually working that have a 737 but i feel that i may go back down south to maybe cranebank as I prefer the A320 or the 757 for the MCC. Maybe I am being fussy i'm not sure as the quality can vary with each school.

[BillieBob]

Logic tells me that when raw data hand flying and OEI in a jet sim, the point of the MCC is more pertinant than ever.That is quite true (apart from the spelling) but one does not seek to learn basic skills in the most demanding environment in which they may later be employed. The logical extension of that premise would be that the best place to learn basic aeroplane handling skills is not in a PA28/C152 but on the flight deck of a public transport aeroplane during a revenue flight, simply because it is in that environment that the skills are 'more pertinent'.

The object of the MCC course is to teach, in a benign environment, the non-technical skills relating to being a part of a multi-pilot crew. The application of those skills in more exacting scenarios (such as raw data, hand flying and OEI) is a matter for later training, such as the MPA type rating, CRM course and line training. To confuse the MCC course with later training is to completely misunderstand the whole concept.

It may give one a pleasantly warm feeling to hand fly a jet aeroplane simulator during the MCC course but then so does pissing ones pants, which is about as relevant in the great scheme of things!

Incidentally, I am intrigued to know how cross-wind knows that European Aviation runs such a good MCC course, since the course in question does not yet have JAA approval, and no course has yet been run. Nobody can have experienced the course and so this looks like a cynical piece of cheap (actually free) marketing on the part of EAAC. Naughty!!

[High Wing Drifter]

cross-wind,
This looks like the one: http://www.eaac.co.uk/flight_training/mcc_courses.jsp

[ColeTrickle]

Hello,
how can one prepare for a MCC Course (preferably using books or sources available on the internet). Since my training starts in april, my training provider has not yet sent any material, though I have some time available and would like to read/learn a bit in advance. I still possess some Human Perf. knowledge from the ATPL sylabus.
Thanks in advancve for your answers.
Cole

[swervin'mervin]

I really wouldn't be too bothered. Maybe if you can have a look at some of the profiles or the sim layout (depends on type) you may get more from the sim sessions. Otherwise just relax! Its an interesting course not an ATPL subject lesson, and most of all it is NOT a type rating. Just enjoy it after all the hard work that you have put in to date.

[moggiee]

A look around the net for information on:

Personality types,
the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator test (MBTI),
decision making,
situational awareness,
conflict resolution

should give you a bit of a stater.

However, all the above should be covered on the course (we do).

On the more practical side, if you can find info on the SOPs used by people like MyTravel, First Choice, Easyjet etc that may help you as well.

Google would be a good start.

[cumulustratus]

www.bfsaa.se (http://www.bfsaa.se)

Their MCC is in a F28 jet FFS and it IS AN ACTUAL Ryanair assessment (no need to fumble in the darkness with the 737-200). I did it myself before it was turned into a Ryanair course (and it was the best part of my training so far) but the content is basically still the same.

[r2_unit]

Scroggs,

I've been through the pp search engine and i'm reasonably sure i'm not about to open a debate that's already well trodden... unless I've missed something? :confused:

Low hrs pilot, about to finish modular fATPL course, looking for an MCC that will appeal to a prospective 1st employer.

Two main options:

1. FNPTII King Air sim. £2300

2. B737 sim. £2900

My questions are - will an employer care about/notice the type of sim my MCC training was carried out on and will experience in a jet sim operating in a 2 pilot environment (for example) be of much benefit for sim assessments?

All constructive inputs welcomed, esp from the chaps/chapesses that actually read the CVs! :ok:

Cheers
r2unit

[MIKECR]

Im in the same boat as you mate, been looking at MCC courses but at a bit of a loss what to do. Im hoping to book something for end of next month but unsure whether to do the king air(cheap) or 73(expensive) option. I was thinking perhaps multiflight or aft, mainly due to cost but a jet sim also tempts me(unfortunately!). Anyone any suggestions?? Are airlines really bothered or is it just a tick in the box for them??

[sam34]

One day i have seen an application form where it was asked "where did you do your MCC ?" but for the CPL/IR they do not care. They just asked what is the country of the licence issue. Not school.

So if I were you I should do the MCC on Full flight 737 or other jet.
it can help you for any selection for example.
and the price's difference between mcc king air or 737 is not important.
We do the CPL/IR on propellers aricrafts... so why don't train on jet afer all ?
737 is heavier than king air, don't forget if you can the plus you can the less...

[Gullyone]

The 737 sim could put you in a better position as the airline assesment is usualy on a heavy aircraft, but only because the assesment will not be such a surprise.

[Groundloop]

This subject has been unbelievably well trodden in the past. However, like you, I can't get the search engine to return threads with MCC as a key word!

[High Wing Drifter]

Search "Jetlinx" and "Parc" and you'll find the related threads.

[MIKECR]

Perhaps a daft question here and as a slight aside, can the MCC sim hours be counted towards my total flying time?? I see the course is 20 hours sim time, is that total to you or split between you and sim partner??

[littco]

The Mcc is a total of 40 hours , 20 hours person flying and 20 hours person non flying..

[MIKECR]

littco,

thanks for that. I assume then that I can log 20 hours sim time in my log book?

[Northern Highflyer]

I did the MCC at Multiflight and thought the course was very good. Total of 20 hours in the sim which went in the logbook.

[r2_unit]

MIKECR,

Sounds like we're in similar situations mate. The 2 prices i quoted were for Multiflight and Oxford and both include VAT. The difference is £600 which (whilst it would certainly buy A LOT of Mars Bars) is not a tremendous amount in comparison to what we've both spent so far - i'm thinking Oxford might be the way forward...?

r2unit

[MIKECR]

Thanks for that.

[littco]

That I'm not sure about that to be honest, but I would have thought if it was done in an FNTPII sim then yes you could.. Maybe someone could clarify for us?!

[BillieBob]

You can put in your logbook anything you like, it is after all your personal record. However, the hours of the MCC course will not count towards the minimum requirements for the issue of any licence or rating.

[Megaton]

By all means put MCC hrs in the back of your logbook in a seperate section - anything else will look like "padding" out. An MCC does not teach you to operate an aircraft merely to wok as a crew. If it was allowable sim time then you could knock 20 hrs off a type-rating but you can't for obious reasons.

[UL975]

The sim hours (FNPTII or better) do count towards licence issue. You can use upto 100hrs sim time in your ATPL upgrade; that just leaves 1400 to fly yourself!

IMHO the MCC course that gives you the most hand-flying will help you when it comes to a Sim assessment, unless you also plan to pay for a JOC.

HOWEVER this is a short term view, it will help you get the job(as long as the sim ride is in the three months after your MCC), it will not help you in the longer term. As professionals with safety being at the core of every decision you make I would suggest that you take the longer-term view and do yourselves and your passengers a favour.

You've got the licence and you have already proved what you are capable of, nothing is more of a true test of skill than the UK IR. You will ALL get that elusive job in the end. Take the opportunity to get the very most out of what will be one of the few extensive MCC/CRM courses you will ever do in your career. Human factors is the biggest threat to aviation, spend some time learning skills and techniques that you can fall back on when the need arises.

[potkettleblack]

Be careful about recording the sim time for an MCC in your logbook. Afterall if you go and do it on a 737 or medium jet and then turn up for a sim ride the expectations of the trainers might be somewhat higher than what they might have been if you had not thrust it to their attention that you were fresh off a 20 hour MCC in a 737 doing hand flown NDB approaches etc...

[SD.]

Can anyone recommend any pre-MCC study?

I've yet to receive confirmation yet, but I'm scheduled for an MCC with Jetlinx at the end of March.

Ta :ok:

[Zouzi]

Just read that Ryanair is now offering an MCC course. Is it a worthwhile course to take with them (qualtity of training versus price)? Has anyone followed Ryanair's MCC course? Any information would be greatly appreciated as I need to complete my MCC ASAP.

Thanks!

[flying_crazy]

Hello guys.
Anyone who has done in Europe the MCC course in A320 simulator?
What are the prices in schools around europe?
Eventhough it is not supposed to be a type rating do you think it is better to do MCC in a simulator like this or in a simple FNTP sim?

Thank you in advance for your opinions.

[Adj]

Hi
having done the MCC i'll give a brief description of the process.
For OAT students we do Groundschool for it on thurs & fri. I not 100% but i think some of the external students may have to come in for a few days before that for CRM training etc.
On thurs your given a large folder containing all the notes you will need for completion of the MCC. The day mainly consists of getting used to the layout, learning the checks and the standard calls.
Friday is pretty much the same as regards learning checks etc with your flight partner. Also you will learn here about perfromance and cover some other aspects.
You then usually have the weekend to assimilate all the info and the checks.
MCC1-5 then run usually mon-fri although this can be tues-sat if maintenance is due on the monday.
The typical day lasts for around 7-8hrs.
An example would be - 1st sim session booked for 8am. Therefore turn up at 7am for briefing etc. 8-10am is the sim session following a flight profile shown in the manual. Typically manual handling and ILS for MCC1 followed by the integration of automatics then routes as you progress each day.
At 10am you leave the sim and are de-briefed. This may take between 30mins-1hr. 2hrs after the first sim your in for the second 2hr slot - This will be 12pm midday in this example. The same profile is flown but with role reversal. If you were pilot flying (PF) for the 1st sim session you will be Pilot non flying (PNF) for the second session and learn that role.
The sim will then finish at 2pm and another debrief will follow again maybe about 30mins. Your day therefore starts at 7am finishing at 2.30pm ish.
You then can write out your performance cards for the next day then go home and brush up on what you have done, struggled on and need to know for the next sim session.

Hope this helps

adj

[edymonster]

Is the oxford MCC recommended by anyone? Are the sim good, I have heard they are a bit slow or something along those lines. Also does anybody recommend doing the JOC with an MCC, does this help alot for sim checks etc? Any info much appreciated.

[Adj]

A few easyjet pilots have been in the sim when i was there and their comments were pretty positive. They said the sim was much the same and handled the same as the real a/c they fly. The only slight difference they felt was the flight controls being slightly heavier.
Obv being a former OAT student i would recommend the MCC. After coming out with 40hrs MCC/JOC then going onto do a sim check a few weeks later on a 747-400 sim, i felt well prepared with what i needed to do after and thought the Jet course was invaluable to my efforts in acheiveing employment.
For me this was the best and most enjoyable part of my whole experience.

adj

[Life of Riley]

This is my first post on PPRUNE, I usually sit on the sidelines reading all of your posts.
However having just completed my MCC at European Aviation Charter in Bournemouth I was so pleased with the course I had to put pen to paper, so to speak.

The course is over 8 days, 3 days ground school and 5 days in the Tristar L1011 simulator.
The ground school is very laid back without loosing its structure and value.
The 3rd day of ground school is type specific on the Tristar, this is the only day spent on learning the specifics of the Tristar as this is an MCC course not a type rating a fact that a lot of people loose site of when choosing a school with maybe a 737 or A320 sim, having said that EAC have just taken deliver of a 737-200 sim which should be online very soon.
The focus is getting you to work together as a team in the flight deck whilst operating a jet aircraft which is not as easy as it sounds not forgetting you have spent the last 250 hours plus as single pilot operations.
Most of the flying is carried out on autopilot as they are not trying to test your flying skills, you have already proved them when you did your CPL/IR, but to get you and the person next to you working together to keep ahead of this aircraft, which believe me is literally twice as quick as anything you may have flown before.

The five days in the sim are by far the best flying I have done to date. In the minimum 20 hours they cover everything from basic radar vector circuits to emergency drills, fire drills culminating on the final day in a route with SIDs STARs etc.

Tony and Dave the two instructors are very experienced airline pilots with thousands of hours between them. With all their knowledge and experience they have seen all the scenarios you can expect to come across in an airline sim check and although not part of the MCC syllabus will run you through them time permitting of course.
Which leads me onto another big plus, as EAC own all the simulators if the sim isn’t booked once you have finished your lessons for the day we where able to stay in the sim to practice circuits etc until the engineers went home.

It doesn’t all end after the MCC when you get that first interview they will give you a free hour in the sim before your interview.

A most enjoyable and productive course all for a very reasonable £2399.

Should anybody wish to contact me for any further feedback please do not hesitate to contact me.

And no I do not work for the company.

[FlyingNFlying]

Can someone do just the MCC with an FAA license?

[Roja]

Hi all

Is there anywhere you can do either a MCC or JOC in a 737-800 simulator ??

Usefull replies appreciated !


Roja:ok:

[Left Wing]

At Alteon LGW.

[email protected]

[SD.]

Having just completed the MCC with Jetlinx, I'd like to report back to PPruNe that the course was absolutely top notch. I'd have no hesitation on recommending the course.

I know the objective of the MCC is to learn about the multi-crew cockpit environment, but to be able to do that in a full motion B757 at BA Cranebank really made the whole experience a lot more enjoyable. I know the cost is a tad more than other courses, but IMO it was worth every penny.

3 of the instructors that taught us were all ex-RAF with a vast amount of experience in both military and civilian flying and I felt they pushed us above and beyond the MCC syllabus.

If anyone is considering training with Jetlinx, give me a pm with any questions you might have and I'll try my best to give honest and accurate answers.

:ok:

[lekp]

Good value for your money is Avia Training in Norway. It's done on a BE200 simulator.

[r_bleker]

Hey all you people looking to do an MCC, I have just completed mine and would recomend it to anyone. I did it in Bournemouth at european, it was great, not only did we learn alot about multi crew but also learnt alot about jet flying. Despite the fact that you have to do the 3 days ground school, it's worth the wait as the 5 days in the 6 axis full motion TriStar Sim is the best flying experiance I've had in all my training. So for all of you whao are looking to do a MCC go do it at bournemouth.... You will really enjoy it, I did. I think their web adress is www.euroav.com (http://www.euroav.com), their price is really cheap as well. Ask to speak to Tony or Mandy.... Tony is great, reall good laugh and great way of giving instruction. Hope this helps you guys who are looking for a place to do a MCC. Good luck!!!!

[potkettleblack]

Don't shoot yourselves in the foot guys. There are a lot of MCC courses that can get you a foot in the door to an airline and are run by current training captains. I was told that my course is running at something like 90% of guys getting jobs. It cost me a lot more but is well worth it as I started my type rating 2 weeks ago.

[Sparky Sliders]

Potkettleblack,

I’m currently trying to choose where to go for my MCC. Not bothered about what aircraft the sim is based on so long as the course is good, but would def like the chance to impress (or not!:} ) current training captains.

Only course I’ve seen with this claimed opportunity is the Ryanair MCC, but for obvious reasons I’m not too keen on going down that route.

Care to say where you did your MCC and what other courses have good links?

Cheers,

Sparky

[ecosystem_repair_man]

As the other half of r bleaker (hi Rob - looking forward to receiving the photos)! I too would highly recommend the MCC at European. As well as being a highly experienced and knowledgeable training captain, Tony our instructor was also a great laugh with a unique and effective teaching style. One of the best things for me was the relaxed and helpful attitude of the technical staff - who were quite happy to give us time on our own in the sim to practice (motion off of course)! Having just completed my IR where every second of training is accounted for and charged accordingly, I found this a particularly helpful and positive part of the course. So if it’s an MCC you’re looking for, European at Bournemouth is the place to go. Their website is www.eaac.co.uk but seems to be playing up at the moment - however, if you type "european aviation group" into Google and click on the first entry with `cached' selected, it seems to work. Either way, their website contact for training is:
Simulator Centre
European Aviation Flight Training
European House
Bournemouth International Airport
Christchurch
Dorset
BH23 6EA
T: +44 (0) 1202 581112
F: +44 (0) 1202 574457
E: [email protected]
Enjoy - I know I did E_R_M

[Callsign Kilo]

Hey folks, has anyone had any experience of FlightSafety's MCC at Farnborough? Haven't seen very much regarding it on pprune and I am keen to find out a bit more (other than what I have been sent by the company). Any inside info much appreciated.

[HN1708]

I'd be interested in knowing more on their MCC as well. How much is it and do you really get an interview with Loganair? How many have completed this course and got a job on the Saab?

Cheers

[captainyonder]

I'm about to do a type rating on the J31 for a job I've been offered but I haven't yet done my MCC. Is there anyway I can do the MCC as part of my TR?

[potkettleblack]

You tell us, does the TRTO offer this service?

Most employers tend to want to see your MCC certificate before offering the job. I know of a couple of mates that got sim rides without the MCC but were told that if successful then they will require the MCC before they can start the type rating. LASORS F4.1 provides some guidance.

[Callsign Kilo]

FS did indicate to me a several months back that Loganair have taken 2 people (hardly massive considering the levels of recruitment these guys go through) directly from their course. They also suggest that 'successful completion' results in a CV being forwarded to the Glasgow HQ.

To be honest, that is all very nice. However I am really interested in anyone that can comment on the quality of training. I would imagine that it is pretty good as FlightSafety are a well respected company?

[jonjon]

Someone asked the same question a few posts ago but where did you do your MCC then? Your claim that 90% find a job is quite surprising and almost to good to be true or is it the Ryanair MCC in Holland/Sweden?

jj

[aeromec]

answer simple. DO AN MCC THAT GETS YOU A JOB .

[captainjim600]

Aeromec is spot on - NO MCC = NO JOB INTERVIEW full stop.Lets think about it - if you are an employer recruiting and you have some RHS jobs to fill and you have x CVs on your desk.You intend to interview y candidates and you have cvs on your desk from z who have no MCC - rest assured your CV will end up in the grey file.

I did my MCC at Wolverhampton Flight Centre.100 % highly recommended.I recommended the course to two of my friends who attended and have since confirmed they considered it to be excellent also. Its run by an ex RAF pilot who certainly knows his stuff.He tries to pass on his many years of experience during the course - its professional,its fun, its hard work at times and its reasonably priced.Oh and the sim is a peach.Contact/course tutor is Richard Moss.

[BlueRobin]

Alsim 200, a bit old in computer terms but the cockpit is great. AFAIK you get a nice discount for the MCC if you do the CPL/IR there.

[BillieBob]

Is there anyway I can do the MCC as part of my TR?Only if the TRTO is approved to provide the combined course - not many are. If it's not a combined course, the MCC is a pre-requisite to start a first MPA type rating.

[GrassStrip]

Hi
I see on the OAT website they are offering an MCC/JOC for a mere £4.5k - has anyone any experience of doing this? Preferably somebody modular who hasn't done any previous courses at OAT - I’d like to know how you were treated and if you felt the course was beneficial (i.e. helped in the employment stakes)?
Many thanks
GS

[Megaton]

I was modular, but not OAT, and completed the MCC there a couple of years ago. The course as well run with excellent instructors and overall good fun. I don't think your choice of MCC provider is going to help you get a job though.

[9gmax]

friend from flying club just enlisted in MCC + TR B733 training this summer with Sabena Flight Academy in Brussels.
I checked on the website and found following:

Summer Camp Courses 2007
As from 11 June till 13 August 2007 SFA organizes for self-sponsored trainees the following summer camp courses:

Type Rating A320: 27.900€* per trainee
Combined MCC+Type Rating Course A320: 30.500€* per trainee
Type Rating B737-300: 25.500€* per trainee
Combined MCC+Type Rating Course B737-300: 29.000€* per trainee
*prices incl. base training (6 touch and go's) and VAT. Only valid for the above mentioned period.
Interested? Send your request to: [email protected]

[jeroen994]

Hi,

Does it matter if you choose to do your MCC on a turboprop or a jet? I can imagine it's an advantage with an airline which is solely using jets to have a Jet MCC, but is it also an advantage if you have a turboprop MCC with a turboprop operator?

Greetings,

Jeroen

[DownloadDog]

I've just got my MCC completion certificate. What do you have to do with it to get it on your licence?

I would ask the provider, but their administration staff are so incompetent I'm not.

Thanks in advance.

[DownloadDog]

Hi
I see on the OAT website they are offering an MCC/JOC for a mere £4.5k - has anyone any experience of doing this? Preferably somebody modular who hasn't done any previous courses at OAT - I’d like to know how you were treated and if you felt the course was beneficial (i.e. helped in the employment stakes)?
Many thanks
GS


GS,

I've recently done the MCC at OAT, the sims are pretty good as are the sim staff. The only negative side is the administration staff - they are :mad: awful.

It took me numerous phone calls and emails just to get the joining instructions for the course. They finally arrived on the Friday before and took no account of my situation. Everyone else on the course had the same experience.

On the first day I reported to reception who weren't expecting me and was taken to the MCC building and left/dumped me in the corridor as they didn't know where I should be!

The course certificate wasn't ready on the day I left and finally arrived a week and a half later. I wouldn't have minded, but I was told it was in the post a week earlier.....

Stump up the cash for the course, you'll learn a lot, just don't expect to get good service from the person who runs the show.....

[Deano777]

Downloaddog, you gon't "get it on your license", basically keep hold the certificate and present it at an interview :ok:

[BlueRobin]

Put it on your toilet wall?

[dwshimoda]

Finished the MCC with Jetlinx last night.

I have to say this was the best and most enjoyable part of my entire flying training! The instructors were fantastic, demanding, informative, and all current airline pilots making it very realistic. They also run the 5 sim slots as a virtual airline with proper SOP's, and it gives you a great foundation for what life will (hopefully!) soon be like.

The sim slots were reasonable, 7pm-11pm, and the 767 full flight sim at Cranebank is an amazing piece of kit!

Admin wise, absolutely no issues - always had answers to emails, phone calls returned, and mobile numbers for instructors were supplied - everyone was very friendly.

From this and other threads you may be fooled into thinking the MCC is merely a "tick box" exercise. The Jetlinx course is anything but. It's demanding and tiring, but fills you with the multi crew concepts, and also gives you the chance to demosntrate your professionalism, whilst flying a jet.

Does having 20 hours jet sim time help get a job? I seriosuly doubt it. But given the choice of an FNPT II and a full flight sim, I'd go with the full flight every time as you get a better concept of what it is really like. I also have a much better appreciation of how to fly a big jet, including just how slippery they are, how easy they are to upset, and feel that any sim ride now would be less of a daunting prospect.

I can't compare it to any other MCC courses as obviously I haven't been on them, but I have believe that this was the best value for money part of my training so far.

If anyone wants any more info, feel free to PM me.

DW.

[F3]

The MCC Certificate only neds to be submitted to the CAA when you apply to have your first Multi Crew Type Rating endorsed on your licence.

[Polarhero]

Another option is to take it with you if you go to gatwick for any reason and get them to put it in your file.
They will take a copy and stamp it up as a certified copy and hold it in your licensing file until you apply for a multi pilot rating.

Just acts as a back up in case you misplace it.

[jeroen994]

Hi!

Can anyone tell me if there is a difference on doing an MCC on a jet or a turboprop? I can imagine a company with only jets in its fleet will prefer an MCC on a jet, but on the other hand, is it really an advantage to a company with only turboprops if I would have a turboprop MCC? My FTO does encourage me to do the turboprop mcc for personal reasons.

Thanks,

Jeroen

[BlueRobin]

Why is the aircraft type important? Surely the cert is all about co-operating? :confused:

*yes I know it's an old argument!

[jeroen994]

Of course I know the cooperation part is the most important! But if I have the choice, what's the best option. The price doesn't matter. I already paid for the MCC through my FTO.

[PorcoRosso]

The price does matter actually : go for the cheapest

No operator will give a toss if it was completed on a jet or a t-prop thing
MCC is just another piece of paper required to put another line on your CV.
While CRM stuff is interesting, an MCC course is too short to get the full picture.
Line training is definitely the way to gain the multi-crew experience .

[Blinkz]

Generally I agree that it doesn matter, however I think that doing it in a jet can be useful as it gives some VERY basic idea of how to handle the added speed/descent/momentum issues that jets have. This in turn is useful as it can help you be just a little bit more prepared for a sim check in the future.

But as everyone as said the actual MCC is the important bit and no operator is going to care what you did it in.

[potkettleblack]

In times gone by I would have said go cheap and do it in a cardboard bomber if you could get away with it. But times have changed. So many operators now have high expectations of their cadets. Ask yourself how you would fare being asked to give a multi crew take off brief, fly a SID, deal with an engine failure, secure the engine, do an NDB approach to a go around, followed by some steep turns, climbs/descents at various speeds and rates, a bit of beacon tracking, then an approach brief, maybe a star and raw data approach to land. Oh and all the time you need to be able to communicate as a crew, do a NITS briefing and deal with ATC plus follow SOP's. More than likely there will be no auto pilot although if they are feeling generous you might get auto throttle but don't hold out for it.

If your lucky you might get a briefing note sent to you a week in advance but more and more you will find out on the day what you will be doing. Things have changed a lot in the past few years.

I guess in many ways its become a self fulfilling prophecy with so many people heading off and getting time in sims ahead of checks that the bar has been raised. There will of course always be those high achievers who can adapt and perform when under pressure and not be thrown by a complex jet sim but for most of us out there I would say try and get the odds going in your favour.

[Ropey Pilot]

Your employer is unlikey to even notice if your MCC was Prop/jet - and care even less.

That said - if you are going for a jet job with a sim check you will probably want to pay for some sim time first. Could work out cheaper just to do a jet based MCC rather than a prop based one and some entirely separate jet sim time.

Lowest cost to yourself whilst ensuring a successful outcome must be the best way to go.

Problem is - even after you are successful you don't know how much extra you did!

[PA44]

Dear all,

I just want to know if anyone can explain to me a few things related with MCC course, i´ve a JAA CPL/ME/IR license issued by portuguese aviation ( JAA aproved ), and i was looking at a few schools in spain to do the MCC ( e.g. Aerodynamics and Panamedia ), but my question is, according to UK CAA lasors those 2 schools are not in the aproved list of providers, if i have a job proposal in UK to an UK based operator do i´ll have problems by having an MCC certificate from a spain? because those 2 schools are JAA aproved. At will state in MCC certificate?

thanks!

[sps1013]

Hi,

After trawling through the net trying to find MCC providers in the UK and near continent that are on an approved list, does anybody have any details of the shortest courses available?

I cant afford the time off after the IR.

Thanks,

sps

[northern]

Try aviatraining in Norway, think its a 5 days course or something like that, check aviatraining.no! It is not that expensive either....

[PA44]

Anyone can help me with this?


Thanks again!

[dwshimoda]

Speak to Keith at Jetlinx:

http://www.jetlinx.co.uk

They can sometimes arrange to do the ground school over a long weekend and the sim slots in the evening.

This is what I did - was knackered all the way through the sim slots (working a full day then off to the sim for 7 hours) but I also couldn't afford any more time off.

Also, a brilliant course and good fun!

DW.

[skyworks]

Hi mate!
Why do you want to do the MCC in Spain??? I know we do more simulator time, but normally it takes minimun a month to finish it! :confused:
I am from Spain and I am not going to do it here! I think that are better providers in UK and quality are much better than here!
If the MCC Spanish providers are not in the UK aproved list, why do you want to take the risk??
I think you should take your MCC course in UK!
Good luck!

[PA44]

What i want to know is not the time that it takes, i know that in Aerodynamics and Panamedia they do it in 7 days not 1 month, i know that there is other schools in Europe better than in Spain and better than in UK, my question is that if it´s valid? Because i will apply to all available airlines in Europe, the problem is that i dont find anyhting that says that you must have an MCC from a specific country, and the only list of MCC aproved schools i find is the one from UK.
Thanks for the reply anyway, but the information that i want is other.


Thanks,

[flyboybarca]

I am looking for an MCC partner for either the June or July course at Jetlinx. June course commences 11th.

Anyone interested send me a PM.

[Sig.Rossi]

Hi Guys!!
Since I don't have MCC I'm looking around for schools but....it's hard to get real information.As a schools Parc, Cae and Sas didn't seem too bad,but it would be good if i could have more information in general and for further job.If someone could give me some info about personal experience that would be very approciated.
Thank you:)

[moggiee]

I was looking at a few schools in spain to do the MCC ( e.g. Aerodynamics and Panamedia ), but my question is, according to UK CAA lasors those 2 schools are not in the aproved list of providers,
They won't be in LASORS because the list there only gives names of providers regulated by the UK CAA.
Spanish FTOs will be approved by the DGAC - you will need to check with them. As long as they are DGAC approved then the course is valid for the whole JAA.

[moggiee]

What i want to know is not the time that it takes, i know that in Aerodynamics and Panamedia they do it in 7 days not 1 month,
There is no way to adequately cover 25 hours groundschool and 20 hours sim training in 7 days. The absolute minimum is 8 days, and that is pushing it.

[flyboybarca]

Partner required for the July Jetlinx course, GS 16/17th followed by Sims 27th-31st inclusive.

Anyone interested send me a PM.:)

[sussexlad]

I've just finished my MCC at European Simulators at Bournmeouth and I thoroughly recommend the course. The course is well structrured and the instructors are very knowledgeable and have vast experience. The Tristar full motion simulator is a pleasure to fly and upon request the instructors will give you instruction on hand flying big jets. They have just acquired a 737-200 full motion sim that will also be used for MCC courses in due course. I found it extremely good value at a pound under £2400. PM me if you'd like more details of my experiences there. Have a look at http://www.eaac.co.uk/flight_training/mcc_courses.jsp

Sussexlad :)