How many hours needed for....?

[glidehigh]

I've just read an article in The Times today saying that due to the current shortage of airline pilots, ICAO and JAA are looking into reducing the number of hours needed to fly an airliner from 145 down to 70 by the end of 2006. Anyone know any more? Should make it alot cheaper though :ok: .

[dboy]

A shortage of pilots???????????

Yeah right!!!! And why reducing the hours??? I think quality of the pilot is far more important.

[ramshorn]

I dont know for sure but i doubt it very much seeing that most people pass there private licences with 50-60 hours!:eek:

[AppleMacster]

The article can be found:
here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2037402,00.html)

[MIKECR]

Is the article not referring to the new ICAO MPL(Co Pilot licence or whatever its called)??

There's at least 2 or 3 previous threads re the MPL.

[scruggs]

As much as I'd love to see the price of pilot training reduce, I think anything that could potentially compromise the quality of the pilots flying schools churn out is a big no no in my opinion.

[mad_jock]

A spokesman for the CAA said that it was “supportive of the principle” of reforming pilot training. Trainee pilots now spent most of their time flying light aircraft. “After 20 hours they are just pootling about from place to place not necessarily learning a lot. Flying a light aircraft is nothing like flying an airliner.



I wonder if the spokesman has ever had a flying lesson in his life.

About 20hours is the sweat point for most people. The hand eye foot stuff hasn't embeded itself yet. The instructor has started to refuse to touch the radio and the swine wants you to get from A to B with the prospect in the near future they might change thier mind and go to C.

And he obviously thinks the effects of controls are different if a plane is called an airliner.

If the spokesperson has been miss quoted fair enough. If he actually came out with that bollocks he should get a right boot up the arse for talking such pish.

[RVR800]

Sep 2005 – JAA starts draft changes to JAR-FCL 1
Oct 2005 - Comments from Contracting States to ICAO
Nov 2005? – JAA completes draft changes to JAR-FCL 1
Jan 2006 ? - JAA goes out to NPA
June 2006? – JAA adoption
Nov 2006 - ICAO effective date
Sep 2007? - First MPLs issued

[F4F]

One thing's for sure, safety would not be any better off...

Here's part of the text:
The minimum number of flying hours for trainee commercial pilots is to be halved under new rules that are being rushed through despite protests that the changes will be unsafe.?Newly qualified pilots are to be allowed to take control of airliners after only 70 hours’ flying experience. Under the present rules, pilots must accumulate at least 145 flying hours before being entrusted with carrying passengers.??The new training scheme, due to be introduced by the end of the year, places far more emphasis on flying in simulators. The time that trainees spend in simulators will almost double, from 90 to 170 hours.??The changes are being supported by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO), which has come under pressure from Lufthansa, the German airline, to reform pilot licensing. Lufthansa has invested heavily in new simulators and hopes to rent them to pilot training organisations throughout Europe.??But BALPA argues that a simulator is no substitute for real flying experience. Martin Alder, the head of the association’s safety group and an airline captain with 30 years’ experience, said: “Simulators may be amazingly realistic but you always know you will be going home at the end of the day. There is no substitute for the unpredictability of real flying.

[Flopsie]

A British Airways jumbo jet came within four seconds of plunging into an irrecoverable nosedive in December 2000 after a deranged Kenyan student entered the cockpit and grabbed the controls. As the captain grappled with the intruder, the co-pilot used skills that he had learnt while flying RAF Tornados to bring the aircraft back under control. “His flying skills were key to the recovery and we must preserve similar skills in future pilots,” Mr Alder said.

- Written by a journo for the pubic consumption and full of half-factual information.

[king rooney]

Just a quick one, does any body out there know how many hours PIC are required b4 one can do ones mep class rating, I vaguely remember a figure of 60 or so.
Its not possible to do it straight after one PPL is it?

[mcgoo]

70 hours PIC

[king rooney]

Nice one ....

[IRRenewal]

70 Hours PIC is a requirement to get the rating issued. You could do the training and even the test before you have 70 hours PIC, but most FTOs won't entertain this concept.

Quote from LASORS:

F3.2 REQUIREMENTS FOR THE ADDITION OF AN MEP (LAND) CLASS RATING

An applicant for a class rating for a single-pilot MEP (Land) aeroplane rating must produce evidence of having completed a minimum of 70 hours as pilot-in-command of aeroplanes.

[king rooney]

Can u count the solo hours flown during PPL training, ie those b4 the ppl skills test?

[FougaMagister]

You can do the MEP(L) rating right after PPL; I did (a few years ago). You do need 70 hours PIC. Remember that you would have to contend with both a complex (variable pitch prop, retractable gear) and a twin at the same time. Quite feasible, but it might take you more hours (and therefore cost more money) than doing it as part of/after the CPL, ie. after you got to grips with a complex single. Also, the MEP(L) validity is one year, so you might end up having to renew it before you pass the ME/IR.

Cheers :cool:

[king rooney]

thats good, have got 10 hrs or so from my ppl but havent flown since. So from what i can make out I need 60 more PIC b4 doing the MEP. Cheers.

[powdermonkey]

Just to check, those 70PIC can be any PIC including time in the circuit? The multi IR requires 50 hrs PIC cross country time, does this have to be done prior to starting multi IR or is it just prior to application for the test? Sorry for hijack of thread, also want to know, cross country time i have logged from start up to shut down, is this incorrect, or should it be only from when you leave the circuit? It's kinda hard to calculate.....
Thanks
PM

[king rooney]

donno for certain, but I reckon PIC hrs are PIC hrs, whether in the circuit or not. If they wanted 70 x country hours they would say so surely.

Anyway, you shouldnt be spending time in the circuit anyway, get out there and take in the lovely countryside!

[Keygrip]

thats good, have got 10 hrs or so from my ppl but havent flown since. So from what i can make out I need 60 more PIC b4 doing the MEP. Cheers.


KR - please, explain to me how you come to that conclusion after reading all the posts (especially IRRenewal's).

[king rooney]

because fougamaster said that he did his mep right after his ppl. I assume therefore that he had for some reason accumulated 70hrs pic during his ppl training. Thus demonstrating that pic hours during ppl training can count towards the 70.

therefore, as I have 10pic from my ppl training., i only need 60 more to get the required 70. Simple logic my american friend.

[Keygrip]

Astonishing.

I'm actually lost for words.

[king rooney]

what, ur astonished that I only need 60 more pic hrs, or ur astonished by my logic?

[IMC007]

Your P1 hours gained during your PPL can be counted towards the 70 PIC hours required before being issued with a MEP class rating.

[FougaMagister]

King rooney - just to clear a misunderstanding, I had NOT accumulated 70 hrs PIC as part of my PPL (now that would have been a lot!); when I said I did the MEP(L) right after PPL, I meant before embarking on the ATPLs, the CPL, the IR, etc.

I did 70 hours PIC mostly through SE hour-building immediately after PPL (which in Florida, took just a few weeks), then started the MEP(L) course.

Cheers :cool:

[FlyingForFun]

I think what Keygrip is probably trying to get at is that you could do the MEP now if you wanted. There is no hours requirement to do the course.

However, having completed the course, you could not apply to the CAA to have the rating added to your license until you had accumulated 70 hours PIC (including the solo time you acquired during your PPL training).

FFF
-------------

[EIDW_PILOT]

With regard to the MEP class rating, can you only fly the type of aircraft you have done your rating on or does the MEP entitle you to fly on a range of twin aircraft in the MEP class range?

Cheers

[IRRenewal]

EIDW_PILOT,

As far as JAR is conconrned, there are no types anymore. They are all grouped in the class of Multi Engine Piston (Land) aircraft.

A MEP class rating allows you (legally) to fly any aircraft in that class.

Whether a club will let you fly one without a check-out is a different issue (and also highly unlikely).

Cheers

Gerard

[Keygrip]

Whilst what IRR says is technically correct, JAA does require differences training on each model and/or make.

If you fly, say, a Seneca 2 - you need differences training to fly a Seneca 3. If you fly a PA44 Seminole, you need differences training to fly a Beech Duchess - etcetera.

[EIDW_PILOT]

Cheers for the replies, just asking cos I have an SA PPL and was thinking of getting my MEP class rating next time I'm in SA and save a few bob towards my CPL / Multi Ir. But was in doubt if my MEP class rating was limited to the aircraft I gained it on but as I understand it now I wont be when it comes to training for my CPL / Multi IR?

[expedite08]

Hi all,

I have been looking in to Commercial schools for completion of my CPL, and have a query regarding hours.

Most schools quote that you require 150 hours TT with 70 PIC. I have seen though that you require 200 hours in order to get your CPL issued. Surley then these schools should stipulate 175 hours before you start the CPL, then at least you can get the licence issued and not have to go and do another 25hours of hour building?

Just wondering if anyone has been caught out by this, and had to do just what I have described above.

Also if you are looking to do an FI rating, can these hours count towards the 200 required? Or do you need the green book issued before you start that course even though you would have passed the flight test?

Hope it makes sense, it dosent to me!!

Many thanks,

Expedite :ok:

[tescoapp]

If you then go from CPL to IR you will then have enough to get the CPL issued. You will proberly also have 5 hours for the MEP and another 7 hours from the CPL/MEP and IR tests. And you can include some sim time as well.

In regards to the FI you need 200 hours before you start the course unless you are an intergrated type person.

[mcgoo]

you only need 150 hours for the CPL if you are on an approved course of training, ie integrated, otherwise you need 200 hours.

[waterpau]

LASORS (Section D1.2(D)) states that for a modular course, 100 hours PIC is required before the CPL can be issued. Where does the 70 hours PIC come into it? Are any of the hours completed on the CPL P1 or P1 U/S?

waterpau

[tescoapp]

The only limit that i can think of which 70 hours PIC is the MEP issue.

Maybe they only have a MEP complex type so you will have to comply with the MEP rating stuff as well.

[XL319]

Think he's getting mixed up with the ME rating which you must have 70 hours PIC before completing that course

[expedite08]

Thanks for the replies,

I was getting mixed up on the PIC requirement. I understand its 100 hours P1.

What still baffles me though is the hour building side of it and the 150 TT before you can start the course, doing the course would then bring you up to 175, then where would you get the other 25 hours from to get the thing issued.

Im modular and intending to do the instructors course after the CPL and instruct for a year or so before I go for the IR. I guess it just means I will have to get to 175 hours before I think about the CPL.

By saying that 150 hours are required I would say most schools expect you to go straight on to the IR on completion of the CPL?

A little frustrating considering the integrated route you need less! We shall not go in to that one!

[wbryce]

A little frustrating considering the integrated route you need less!

Look on the bright side, it costs them 30k more for less flying! :E

[tescoapp]

I would do it at 150 hours.

You never know you might need a few hours extra training or and extra test. At least it will go towards the total required, if you have 175 its extra which you didn't need to pay for. Also means that you could hire a plane during your CPL and go and practise some nav solo.

[expedite08]

Wybryce,

Very true indeed!!

Teascoup,( please excuse the spelling!!) That sounds like a good idea. I guess the hours will get there in the end. Will just have to extend the loan a little for the extra if needed!

[EIDW_PILOT]

Hey,

Anyone know if its 70 hours P1 or 100 hours P1 need for issued of CPL, just a bit confused as I see a number of flight schools quoting one or the other. :)

Cheers

[Deano777]

150TT to start the course, and 100 PIC for licence issue

Hope this helps

Dean

[hobbit1983]

You also need 200TT for license issue - 150TT to start the course, but 200TT needed for issue of a CPL. You need 100hrs PIC included in that, of which 20 hrs must be crosscountry, and another 10 I believe must be instrument flight.

Do a search - been asked here many times before!