ARMED FORCES IN MELT DOWN

[peoplespoet]

The British Armed Forces are in melt down. The standard of living, quality of life, medical and dental services, adventure training opportunities and financial situation that servicemen and women face is an absolute disgrace. Ok aviators fair well in the financial aspects but not in comparison to our civilian counter parts. Never in the past 20 years of Army service have I seen so many mandatory financial cuts, inappropriate decisions taken in pursuance of personal careers, over commitment and poor investment in equipment, machinery and manpower. If it was not for the British fighting spirit of our men and women at the sharp end along with the make do mentality we would have faltered a long time ago. But one can only hold the fort for so long and that time period usually coincides with the cavalry arriving.

The reality however is that unfortunately the cavalry are busy in the country next door doing another countries work and endeavours; so what happens now, Afghanistan will not go away nor will Iraq. Some of our troops have already conducted 3 or 4 tours of Iraq and for a break they will go and play in the poppy fields during the summer recess. What is going on? Is it me or as I fear are we set for a serious exodus from the service unprecedented in our fine history. The Senior officers and heads of Arm are either being told lies by COs or really do not care for the men they are charged with.

Last one out leave the lights on because the bill has not been paid and the electric will be turned off anyway!

PP…out…………literally:sad:

[Bismark]

PP,

Whilst I agree with many of your sentiments - particularly re overstretch - there are other aspects which are much better. SLAM is delivering en-suite accom across the ranks, JRs can have partners/girlfriends to stay in their SLAM; medical and dental is v good (ie free and available);AT is readily available etc.

Perhaps it is your Service that needs restructuring for modern operational deployment profiles. Why does the Army still have Directors of Arms? eg why does DAAvN exist (working to ACGS) when there is a 2* General running JHC working for Land? same for DArty etc. What does GOC Londist actually do?Must be a large overhead to the Army in running these ancient orgs. Should you configure more like the RMs/3Cdo Bde or 16AAS? Why have you got so many Apaches, CR2s etc

Please help this old buffer to understand.

[peoplespoet]

I agree with you just what does DAAvn actually do? Ive never seen him around and he certainly doesn't vist the men, and the locations he has visited he didn't listen to a jot of what they had to say; if my memory serves me correctly his words to 673 sqn were "you will finish the AH course on time and the next course will have 24 students on it"...la la la la la la la 'not listening' went the cry. I am sure the armed forces would manage well if not better without Arms directors especially ones that are completely out of touch with reality and insist on making ridiculous promises to mates in higher places.

You may be right about the other problems being service related.

As for the amount of AH well don't worry you will never see 67 AH fielded with the AAC (36 at an absolute push). Trying to get 8 into Afghanistan is proving to be a major issue. Even pre-tour training is being curtailed because of the costs involved; in fact the second Sqn will not receive any pre-tour environmental training or live firing - the simulator is very good apparently. Lets not talk about the impact on other service flying as a result of the spares drain caused by the AH deployment. Both CTT and CTR will suffer in spades (guaranteed) which will have a significant knock on effect. Delays to AH CTT and CTR will reduce the availability of replacement pilots for operations; stand-bye 656Sqn for your second tour within 18 months. You can see it coming from a mile away, but when sat in the clouded office's in DAAvn and JHC things like that will be someone else's problem so lets deal with that crisis when it arises Tin Tin.

Doesn't really effect you on a Friday afternoon on the 10th green though!

PP

[The Helpful Stacker]

I'm not 100% on this but wasn't there some sort of study done before the introduction of the Apache that revolved around the RAF and Army making estimates on how much in money and personnel it'd take to support? I heard along the lines of the RAF used the Jag as a guideline and the Army used a Lynx (as that was all they really knew) and as the Army quote came out cheaper to the bean counters they got to play.

Is this true or one of those 'rumour control' things floating around the military?

If it is true it might explain a few things.

[mutleyfour]

Things are desperate I would agree, but not just with AH. What about Typhoon, MRA4, HMS Whatever they are? etc etc. A Navy without planes, An Army without Ammo and an Air Force that are still fighting the cold war (equipment wise).

We also have to defend a country where its ok for people to burn effigy's, Flags and other national insignia, but, just mentioning the drawing of a cartoon brings absolute mayhem.

Sadly once again however, the minority have brought us into disrepute (News of the World article) and thus the sympathy vote reduces at a pace.

[MrBernoulli]

Bismark

You must be lucky with dental. When I started in the RAF it was an examination every 6 months. When I left, last year, it was grudgingly done every 18 months. ****e. Not good enough. And I was an aviator, where dental health was an important part of ones medical standard.

[southside]

No fella...Mr Bismarck is absolutely correct (except the comment about the overstretch - he will surely remember that the FAA has always been like this)

The reason for all of this banging on about lack of money,resources,hotels etc is that the RAF are suddenly finding themselves having to account for every penny (hence the cleaning the MT cars thread)

I joined my first sqdn in 1980 and we were gapped then. (the only time the gaps were filled was during Op Corporate) and ever since, we have been over tasked and under manned and consequently the FAA is very good at managing the problem. We can still support the FL with the correct medical/dental care. We can still provide the boys with plenty of AT and plenty of fun. Hopefully the RAF will learn to manage this problem because there is one thing that I can promise and that is that its not going to go away.

[Biggus]

southside

If you bother to read properly the comments on this thread, before going off on your usual 'RAF bashing' tangent, with the occasional swipe at the RN Merlin fleet, you will find that most of the people commenting here about lack of money, resources, etc are AAC, i.e Army!!

In the wonderful little FAA Lynx world lack of resources, money, etc may not be an issue, but it is for the majority of the rest of the UK Armed Services, whatever colour uniform they wear!!

[peoplespoet]

Nice to see that the MOD are gunning for our troops again following the recent ITV revelations in BASRA. Huge pity that the SIB didn't get their f***ing hard hats on and go find the T**ts that threw the grenade in the first place.

Why must we set an example every time a soldier at the end of his tether after 6 months of sh1t in a hell whole like Basra ruffs someone up. Its not as if they didn't deserve it is it!

Imagine my surprise that they now want compensation; well now that they admit being part of a riot perhaps they will face the Iraqi judicial system for their actions and get their ***ing hands cut off to boot.

PP

[Bluntend]

I attended a seminar with the a 2* and a selection of very senior civil servants and management consultants recently. The aim was to “emphasise the line manager’s role in leading change positively and developing teams to meet our current and future challenges”. Sadly, listening to the 2* was more like listening to a Nu Labour spin-doctor than a senior RAF Officer. I can’t speak for others who attended the event but I for one left with a sickening feeling in my stomach that the damage has already been done to the RAF. I got the distinct impression that at a very high level within the MOD, there is the opinion that initiatives like LEAN, multi-skilling, equipment procurement projects for example FSTA and the A400M, redundancies etc would be forced through despite grave concerns over the benefits and risks associated. The 2* was asked about opportunities to pause between change initiatives to give us the chance to consolidate before the next round of change was imposed. This, we were assured, was not a possibility – we must embrace change or else get left behind. Marks and Spencer was used as an example. I’m afraid I lost the will to live when the 2* tried to address the issue of ‘morale being low due to uncertainty over the future’. “Well, that’s a very interesting point” he announced. “I’m not really sure that I know what ‘morale’ is…”.
Unfortunately, if our lords and masters fail to recognise the value of an individual, a process, an equipment type, rather than regarding them simply as expensive metrics, performance indicators and costly head counts we may never be able to recover from the situation we have found ourselves in. Morale will continue to decline and people will show their unhappiness with the RAF by PVRing. Role on Tranch 3. We need to accept that although we need to evolve as a force, a programme of constant change without consolidation is a hugely destabilising experience. I feel it is not change that people have a hard time dealing with – it is the pace of change that wears people down. We should be aim for continuous improvement not continuous change for change’s sake. :(

[Nimbus265]

Peoplespoet,

I have to say that I totally agree with you. I've done 30 years this year aand have seen a lot of changes in that time. Thing is I might be a lot higher up the ladder now, but somebody stole all of the fun!!! I do still get away for AT/sport, but thats only because I represent the Army. What is missing is the incentive for me to saty much longer. I've potentially 7 more years left, am I'm trying very hard to find a reason to stay. Last year I spent 15 weeks away, its going to be similar this year.

Who stole the Moral component of fighting power?????:{

[[email protected]]

Who stole the Moral component of fighting power?????:{
Although a genuine spelling mistake, I think this freudian is hilarious given the recent media revelations. :\

[SubdiFuge]

Grunt

Its no typo, thats what its called on the LAND 1/4ly report. Always thought it was strange...

[jayteeto]

I'm interested in the comment about being away for 15 weeks last year. Is that a complaint? Even in my cushy number on the Puma OCU, I spent more time than that away. 15 weeks seems pretty good??

[Nimbus265]

You are correct - that was no spelling mistake!. As to the 15 weeks away, well that was a bit of rounding up really. I work one week in every 5 in the USA (sounds fun - but it ain't) and three months in the USA at a stretch each year, all in hotels - not barracks. This year go out October - back next Feb, oh what fun JPA will be for me - not!

[peoplespoet]

I don't believe that time away is a major issue, I remember the time when 6 months on exercise or operations was normal (BAOR). But during that period my family where throughly looked after at all times. They could come and go from barracks, see military doctors and dentists, speak freely with other families and most of all they felt part of the military community and shared the loyalty and respect that service personnel were given.

Service personnel get no concessions anymore, in fact less than a single parent with no job for certain; and as for respect or loyalty if its not shown by our own government and senior officers no wonder we are loosing support from the nation.

The forces now alienated the families, they offer them below standard accommodation at relatively high prices, no health care, mess functions are run by civilians that don't care about tradition or etiquette. All family perks have gone and with it the families support to the troops which now means that even a 2 week exercise causes frictions throughout the rank structure. Many wives now have their own careers which they are not recompensed for when they abandon them in order that they accompany their husband. And for the families that elect to live apart in pursuit of professional careers they are further financially penalized.

At the current rate of financial draw down of military estates, equipment and personnel the UK police force (which is 4 time larger than the armed forces) will have to be deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan if things get further out of hand as the TA are already over stretched and the regular forces are in crisis!

[mutleyfour]

PP, Agreed.

Didnt the banks do this a few years back, cost cutting etc closing down branches etc and lo and behold found it not to work so are reopening etc. Whilst i appreciate the AF arent a bank the analogy should ring true. At present its all about cost saving but when does someone at ministerial privilege level have the balls to stand up and say "sorry no can do!" If only Mr Blair would visit my Station.

[Yellowbaron]

I so agree.
Now with our usual 3pc payrise and a 14pc increase in accom charges I truly think that there is a drive to force out all but the mad and desperate!!:eek:

[The Gorilla]

Actually only the mad and desperate are left!!

:}

[TBSG]

The forces now alienated the families, they offer them below standard accommodation at relatively high prices, no health care, mess functions are run by civilians that don't care about tradition or etiquette. All family perks have gone and with it the families support to the troops which now means that even a 2 week exercise causes frictions throughout the rank structure.

Don't agree - in BFG things are still very much dependent on which base you live on/near. I have a massive MQ at well cheap rates, the family have been very well looked after by the quacks (most of whom are civilian BTW) and the mess life, as ever, depends on the characters running it and living in it. Horses for courses I think.

Try actual life outside, where you have to really save for a pension and the commute is 90 mins each way, and not the grass is greener version most disgrungtled military personnel expect to exist. I have heard all the arguments in this thread over the last 15 years of my Army service and will no doubt hear them all for as long as I choose to stay in.

PP - sorry, but you are being a bit comical with your "meltdown" claim.

[Michael Edic]

I'm not mad, wibble!!

[Clockwork Mouse]

In the old days we felt the public didn't understand or appreciate us. It had always been thus, but at least the Services we were in did, were on our side and looked after our best interests. Loyalty, respect and trust went both ways.

But then the Services were taken over by the civilian accountants. We were no longer understood, trusted, valued and looked after by those we work for. We were still expected to put up with all the traditional b*ggering about, the inconvenience and instability for our families, but conditions of service and quality of life were steadily eroded to save pennies and the petty rules and regulations applied with no deference to common sence. And when we have to do our job and fight, the media hover over us like vultures, applying fluffy civilian standards to military action, so God help us if we take the gloves off. And our masters haven't the honesty and the moral courage to take our side any more.

That's what has changed. Thank God I'm retired.

[peoplespoet]

TBSG,
I you got your fluffy backside out from BFG into the chaos of reality you would see that things within Uk land forces are indeed in melt down. I served in BFG for a while and my god I would love to return to the land of plenty.

But BFG like any holiday posting is just that HOLIDAY and not quite what the rest of us are putting up with. No NHS to farm soldiers off to etc.

I am sure that some people will be happy with the way they are being treated, but the vast majority of armed forces are continually faced with cuts, increased work load, poor man -management and lack of support from on top.

So I look forward to your situation remaining good with a large cheap quarter, family medical care and a normal lifestyle when you return to UK. Comical........ your in for such a rude awakening dear chap!!

PP

[JessTheDog]

The grass is definitely greener on the civvy side...in parts. It is correct to point out that private sector pensions have gone down the toilet. Perhaps the powers-that-be belief that, if they screw up civvy street enough, they can screw up the Armed Forces as well, as long as they don't go too far.

[TBSG]

PP,

"Fluffy backside" vs "Chaos of reality"? My reality is op tours and more op tours. With some exercises in between. The Germany of today is not the Germany you seem to recall. I have spent far more time away during this tour than I have before. The 3 armoured brigades seem to be taking their fair share of the operational commitments in the desert. Fluffy? - I wish. All the things you complain about exist to varying degrees here, just as they exist to varying degrees across the whole of Defence. However, my point was that life as a civvy is not a bed of roses (with respect to JesstheDog's view) - different cr@p, same quanitities. Only without a uniform.

For my money, the media are significantly responsible for the public perception of the military, although it is interesting to note that the actual view the public hold of us is far better than you might expect from recent headlines. See the recent Army Presentation Team roadshow reports for more - very reassuring.

Harder work these days? Probably. Fewer opportunities for fun? Maybe. As bad as you say? Definitely not.

[charliegolf]

There seems to be a lot of mention across the threads about how the public view the forces. Not least that the public's 'perception' of you guys and gals has gone south recently.

As an ex mil civvy, reasonably tuned in to military stuff in the news and in general, I can tell you that I don't see it.

I don't think civvies think about it, frankly, and certainly not enough to affect your current lot one way or another. By that I mean that even if we think your sh1t is toothpaste, this crowd of snakeoil salesmen we have in charge would still be 'leaning' you.

CG

[LFFC]

We shouldn't be too surprised about how the public view us - I recall seeing an opinion poll during a recent general election campaign and noting that the public rated the importance of the Armed Forces somewhere at the bottom of the list, just below animal rights. Mind you - that was before 9/11.

[FJJP]

Families have to tolerate a huge amount supporting us in our jobs. For me it came as a big shock to my system when, after 34 years of marriage and loyal camp-following, She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed turned round after yet another long det [average 30+weeks away per annum] and asked when we were going to get a life.

She married into the Forces [she, herself, left on marriage] and we had a fantastic time, accepting all that went with it. However, over the years there has been a steady erosion of all that compensated for the bad. I am not necessarily talking about basic pay; continued cutting of services, allowances, concessions, manpower et al has taken the shine out of being part of a military elite [as I viewed the British Military measured against the rest of the world].

Now the Britmil is just another job, and continued additional demands are made of us without the tools or compensation that keeps this thing called morale going. Yes, there is still the adrenilin rush of the fighting ops, but that rush is now being dulled by continued sniping by the fluffy huggy PC brigade and the distinct lack of guts displayed by those at high level who should be telling our President and cronies that enough is enough - either put up or shut up.

Our Servicemen should be pampered [for want of a better word] to some degree on ops; for example, there is no excuse for those on sustained ops to be given facilities so basic that you would be prosecuted in the UK for keeping animals in such conditions. That we get on with it without complaining speaks volumes for the quality of the soldier in the street, and that may be the root of the problem - middle commanders are often more interested in looking after their careers than making a stand and saying 'can't be done without...'

I know, I have the same battles now that I am outside, working in a Government funded environment, where ministerial decrees are invariably made without thought, consultation with the commanders in the field and without increased manpower and funding in the right places to make it work without it causing grief to those at the sharp end.

But I am afraid I don't know what the answer is; there has got to be a root change in attitudes, and acceptance that the Armed Forces must be treated as a special case and not subjected to normal business practices, etc. Control of the Forces must be taken out of the hands of the accountants - they should be very subserviant to the sharp end. The support that has been destroyed over the years must be re-instated - learn how the Americans treat their Servicemen would be a start. And so on.