Low Flying

[VigilantPilot]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/4696056.stm

More headlines from BBC News today.

[ratty1]

Maybe it was authorised to do so. I've authorised myself below 100' many times.

Well done southside I bet you feel really important now.................

[ratty1]

edited due to Journo warning red.

Whoops....................:ok:

[PPRuNeUser0211]

And I'm sure said horsey person knows exactly what 100' msd looks like... >insert own scathing comments<... g'day vp, get your flip cards?

[Jackonicko]

Serious and silly responses by a journo:

Villager Rodney Dolby said: "I could see the eyes of the pilot plainly. The noise was horrendous when it came over.

Dark visors obviously need to be down to avoid this....

An MoD statement said it has increased the height at which helicopters fly to a minimum of 100ft.

If this is true, having had a cack-handed go flying the Puma in Belize and elsewhere, as well as the Scout, the Gazelle and the Lynx, and having flown in other r/w types, I'd need an awful lot of convincing that 100 ft was reasonable for realistic training, and for rotary winged blokes to maintain proper operational competence. It sounds like the ludicrous 1,000 ft limit imposed on FJs in Germany a few years ago.

It added that the Ministry takes all complaints of alleged low flying extremely seriously and would investigate formal complaints.

What a pity there's no formal channel to make complaints about unreasonable limits imposed for political reasons....

Low flying is essential for pilots to retain the skills necessary to be able to operate safely in operational and potentially hostile theatres, it said.

What is low level for an Apache?

[jimgriff]

Apache can come and train in my garden whenever they want!:suspect:

[Pontius Navigator]

Jackonicko,

I reported one civvie for low flying only a couple of years before he had a mid-air with a Jaguar when he was doing the same thing, speculative home photography.

He was wearing dark raybans, a white shirt, epaulettes and had dark hair and a suntan. He was well fleshed and probably slightly overweight.

He was also well below 150 feet. We know this 'cause the 32ft 11in long aircraft was only 200 feet from the camera.

OTOH he did make 3 passes which made observation and assessment dead easy.

Seriously though what is the height from the bottom of the rear fuselage to the top of the rear rotors? How many Chinooks can you get under the 'low flying' one?

[Jo Cover]

There is a girl in my home village who thinks she has the god given right to ride her race horse, (which she is unable to control) when ever and where ever she wants and this includes other peoples land with out their permission.

She rides close to a farm strip and complains that the pilot of a light twin, always flies at her, deliberately so she sits at the end of the runway to prevent him landing because it is her right to do this.

She complains about the RAF Army Navy a/c whether fixed wing or rotary every day of the week because fly too low and that they should know that her horse, is in a field, in the middle of the country. (which incidentally has recently escaped from its field on more than one occasion and other villagers have had to usher it back inside its field because she was too busy to come over).

What are other Ppruners views on this type of person who seems intent of complaining about a/c at every possible oportunity??

I would love to know and maybe print it off to show her....

[truckiebloke]

Rodney Dolby - theres a good Lincolnshire name for you.

[scottishbeefer]

Chaps/Ladies

As the Chinook mates know all too well, we need to give these civ's a wide berth when "merely" training or else.

As to habitual complainers - I seriously doubt they've sat down and given some serious thought as to why we need to train thus/what it achieves. Despite the fact that the Red menace is unlikely to come over the hill any more, no training = no skill = increased fatality, whenever we go and put the fires out wherever we're required.

I'm utterly against the use of spurs whilst driving a chopper, previous posts would confirm this, but - when it's required it's required. Joe public should be sleeping easier knowing the boys can deal with the bad guys.

SB

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Rodney Dolby - theres a good Lincolnshire name for you.

Strange that he's complaining about noise. Why doesn't he just use his Dolby Noise Reduction? :}

:cool:

TOG

[Pontius Navigator]

BBC Look North did a phone-in poll this evening on whether helicopters should continue to fly below 100 feet. 68% of the phone in said YES.

Mind you the interviewer of the Army LTC at Wattisham was a prat. The Colonel said something. The interviewer then repeated it as a question. Poor colonel simply repeated his previous answer.

My pet horsey hate is the 'riding instructor' that rides a bike behind the young rider and shakes his fist at me as I shoot past at 60. Why? Becasue there is no need for him to be on the road, the horse is dark brown, and he wears a 'hi-visibility' dirty brown barbour style. The rider's clothes might be clean but I have seen two of his riders with ONE yellow reflective arm band between them and often on the wrong side.

[Pontius Navigator]

EUREKA let's do all the low flying after dark. No horse riders, windows closed and they won't be able to see what it was:}

[BEagle]

I always slow down for riders....it's the country code.

But I slow down particularly for fit little lassies in tight blouses and bum-hugging jodphurs..

Oooh yes....:E

[ShyTorque]

"My horse and the coloured one in the stable were kicking up a right old shindig," he said."

Are they allowed to say that? And what were they up to anyway? :uhoh:

[HEDP]

I was wondering when the national equine organisation is going to establish its free phone number that all horse riders are required to register their riding routes upon. Registration must take place at least 2 days in advance of a ride and no deviation is permitted from the published route. This is to enable all pilots to be aware of horse movements in sufficient time to plan their own routes to avoid all known horse riding routes at the time of thier flight.

The costs for this valuable safety promoting scheme will of course be born by the riding community as a whole.

[Pontius Navigator]

HEDP,

They must also agree to keep any part of their head or anatomy below a height of 10 feet so that a helicopter flying at 110 feet AGL will achieve 100 feet MSD.

I spoke to one of our horsey complainers the other day. She was comlaining about a low flying Chinook that might have scared her horse if she had been riding it. I asked if she had tried the freefone number. What number? I got her the number and then she admitted she had heard of it but thought it was only applicable to Market Rasen.

At the risk of restarting the RAF Police thgingy, maybe we should send the phone number to the horses.

[HEDP]

Further to the above,

Where any horse is to be ridden on the public highway, registration is to take place with the local police in order that they may make an enforcement order closing the said roads to all other users.

This is a further safety initiative due to the fragility and sensitivity of the horses and the recognised inability of the riders to cope and control thier mounts.

[Pontius Navigator]

and of course the local council environmental health department to be informed so that they can monitor the situation in case anything falls to the ground and thus prevent the sh1t fitting the han:)

[Truck2005]

Go here


http://www.drunkencat.com/media/1131925689/Extremely_Low_Altitude_Flying

[tonkatechie]

Perhaps they should consider fitting nav light to the horse, and an anti col light to the rider's helmet?

[Professor Plum]

You could always fit both Heli's and Horses with a modified TCAS system.

That way, riders have just as much opportunity to get themselves out of Harms way!! :}

[PhilM]

Sorry for the useless contribution to this thread, but ;);

In my opinion low flying is essential (we've all seen the video), I am 100% sure it has inspired many young people to join the RAF, certainly the low flying videos often shown at ATC units certainly raises enthusiasm for it.

I'd like to see more low flying, I guess I'm in the minority though, your always welcome to come and practice in my back garden :ok:

Shame the tree-huggers and busy bodies don't agree :oh:

[The Apprentice]

Diverting into an airfield in bad weather from what I hear, and apparently this place is inside waddingtons zone. Although we all regret death or injury from low flying, death and injury from not being able to train correctly is just as sad.

[southside]

what does that mean? Are you suggesting that because you are diverting then you are not low flying...?

[Pontius Navigator]

Southside, I believe that is what the man means. Low flying, to a layman, is flying at low level. Low flying, to an airman, means flying below 2000 feet in the low flying system and NOT intending to land at an airfield.

We often did approaches to airfields when we could not enter low level through cloud. We would then enter the system from the airfield.

Low flying thus has two very different meanings depending on who you are.

[southside]

Good point...

[The Apprentice]

From what I understand the crews involoved where low flying due to weather in order to get to an airfield to safely land. The weather forecast is not always accurate. This particular incident was not a planned low level training exercise, thats what I was trying to say.

[Lon More]

Send her a video of the target acquisition with some film of what the armament can do. Might shut her up

[bayete]

24 Jan a certain secret Wiltshire airbase recieved a phone call from a lady horse rider....
Imagine the worry when I was asked where I had been low flying that afternoon to the SW and the subsequent pleasure when I discovered that she had phoned the Station to praise a crew for seeing her on her horse and manoeuvring the aircraft to avoid her.
I couldn't say that it was me although I was in the area, I was able to point the Staish in the direction of the probable pilot though.
My question is should we be publicising an incident like this in the national press?

[petitfromage]

French Pumas too:

www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2006-2-13_altitudefive.wmv

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Truck drivers sit higher off the road than that! :eek:

[Lon More]

:cool: Jeez, he was on the wrong side of the road for France; wonder what happened to the opposite direction car?

[Southside.]

I must admit that what I posted earlier may have been misunderstood. I think I AM qualified though to post about LF as I achieved a bit of it on the Jetstream before getting canned from Observer training and becoming a pusser. I still perform a very useful function in the RN and I challenge anyone to say I can't post here about military flying!

That is all.

FLY NAVY;)

[The Rocket]

Troll Alert,

The Southside. above is not the southside from a few posts previously.

Check the names and use of capitals.


Is it possible there are TWO muppets trying to cause havoc out there!!

[ShyTorque]

"I still perform a very useful function in the RN".

What as - a chock?

Nowt like blowing your own trumpet, eh? :rolleyes:

[airborne_artist]

For more on the many different flavours of Southside, read here. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2425806#post2425806)

I achieved a bit of it on the Jetstream before getting canned from Observer training FYI SS, pukeing up in the back of a Wetdream as it flies at 1000' AGL is not low flying, it's called the downwind leg.

[Sven Sixtoo]

Apprentice

I stand to be corrected but I think you are wrong. (where did I type that before?)

AFAIK the Chinook in the Heather Bell case was doing what had been planned within the limits authorised.

Hence the attacks on the system - if the crew had been at 49 ft rather than xx (>50 ft) they would likely have been hung out to dry and the system unchallenged.

Not saying that there is anything wrong with the system.

Sven

[southside]

That man is an imposter. For a start, you don't get "canned" from Observer training.... you get chopped. But the big giveawy is the mention of a Jetstream Lowflying...???? Jetstreams don't low fly.

[308Win]

Good lord Southside (with a capital), what are you doing posting replies on the internet? Go, quickly and with much gusto... you are denying a village somewhere of a perfectly serviceable idiot.

[southside]

yeah...bu&&er off and leave the flak to me.

[SRENNAPS]

southside

Any aircraft can fly low level. It depends who is flying. Ever flown in a Canadian Air Force Challenger; in formation with two tonkas, low level, over the Labrador countryside - Brilliant.

[southside]

That sounds brilliant. I'd love to have a go at that.

My point about the Jetstream was that when they fly "Low level" they are effectively conducting a straight line nav at a reduced height. Low Level flying should involve map reading, contour flying, CADs, CAPPs, threat bands, simulated SAM sites to avoid....not flying at 180 Knts in a straight line from A-B. It might be classified as low flying (as they are <2000') but its not what I would call it.

[SRENNAPS]

I knew what you meant and you are right. But who knows what Jetstream Jocks get upto when out of sight.

By the way have a go with a C130 a few feet off the Nevada Desert. Thats quite good also, especially as a spectator sat on the ramp.