MT RANT

[OverTq]

I've been out of the RAF for 10 years. Talking to an ageing Sqn Ldr today, was a bit taken aback by the apparent loss of status of serving officers. He used an MT car for a journey to the dunker at Yeovilton, leaving home at 4am. Returned to base mid afternoon, refilled with fuel (why?) and took the car back to MT. An hour later he received a call from MT asking why he hadn't washed the car before returning it. Is it me?

[The Helpful Stacker]

I've been out of the RAF for 10 years. Talking to an ageing Sqn Ldr today, was a bit taken aback by the apparent loss of status of serving officers. He used an MT car for a journey to the dunker at Yeovilton, leaving home at 4am. Returned to base mid afternoon, refilled with fuel (why?) and took the car back to MT. An hour later he received a call from MT asking why he hadn't washed the car before returning it. Is it me?

Who is supposed to clean the car then?

If he has an FMT600 (must have to have a service vehicle) then he must had read MT orders which state "all vehicles must be returned to MT refuelled and cleaned". Of course everybody reads MT orders before signing they have don't they?

Only one person on a station has an automatic right to someone else cleaning his vehicle for him and when he drives around there is a little flag on the front.

[RAF_Techie101]

Erm, common courtesy perhaps...? Something wrong with giving the car back the way you picked it up...? What does his rank have to do with anything? Or is washing a car below someone holding a queen's commission... :hmm:

[OverTq]

Do pilots wash their aircraft when they've landed? I don't think so. What's the difference? (OK, did sometimes after an SH detachment if the techs were still en-route, but not as a rule).

[Tourist]

"What does his rank have to do with anything? Or is washing a car below someone holding a queen's commission... "

Quite frankly, yes!
Or at least it bl@@dy should do.
"Rank hath its priveliges" unfortunately is no longer true in todays Britain.
Unfortunately now rank only has the responsibilities and none of the Perks. No wonder everybody gets disillusioned and leaves.
If you don't want to wash cars for officers, you should have to get some ambition and get promoted!

[RAF_Techie101]

Erm... No, our aircraft get washed every 35 days IAW the Aircraft Maintenance Manual, by the aircraft wash team... Next unrelated comment...?

[RAF_Techie101]

Oh grow up please... It's people like you that make us Junior Ranks despise officers... Give me one reason you shouldn't have to wash a car that you've gotten dirty...

[OverTq]

The adage used to be 'rank hath it's priviledges'. Being a lesser being meant that more mundane work was done by the underlings. I doubt that an Army Major would consder washing his vehicle - his 'man' would do it for him. I do stand to be corrected on that!

[RAF_Techie101]

No idea, but this isn't the Army... If you like the idea of having your 'underlings' do all your dirty work for you, maybe you should have joined them...

[The Helpful Stacker]

The adage used to be 'rank hath it's privileges'.

Perhaps that sort of approach worked a bit better when the officer/OR balance was a bit more triangle shape but please do tell me again, whats the ratio of officers to airmen in Her Majesties (ever so modern) Royal Air Force?

Perhaps one of the lads can clean the car after he's finished doing his fifth period of guard of the year, shortly before he goes off to Afghanistan but not before he pushes a couple of shifts on the recently LEANed AEF.

Anyway, none of our commissioned brethren have answered the question. If he's used an MT vehicle he must have signed MT orders, by not returning the vehicle washed he is in violation of MT orders is this not so?

Perhaps its like one of those high spirits/blatant vandalism things.

[MightyGem]

I doubt that an Army Major would consder washing his vehicle
Maybe not, but an Army pilot washes his own aircraft! Professional pride.:rolleyes:

[Smudger552]

Not a problem here!! Those lovely chaps at Lex just bung the car through the car wash! The MT here, run by a contractor is easily the best I've come accross in 20 years in the mob. If its frosty they warm the car up prior to pick up and also let you have the car the night before a journey to save you coming in 'specially to pick up the wagon....bloomin' marvelous!:ok:

[RAF_Techie101]

Phew - I was beginning to think I was the only one fighting the cause here...:D

[Smudger552]

No 'cause fighting' going on, just a statement of fact. MT orders demanding cars being cleaned really aren't necessary in this age of 'customer satisfaction'. All sounds a bit out dated really......Lex are providing a service, and a good one at that.....

[Tourist]

Simple efficiency.
Sqn Ldr earns (very) approx £50 per hour actually worked each day
20 mins to wash car = £17

Junior Rank earns approx £10 per hour
20 mins to wash car £3

Same reason that large multinationals used to fly their execs on Concorde
It saved them money because it saved their very expensive time

[Roland Pulfrew]

What's the problem? Don't all MT yards have a vehicle wash? Just drive in dirty and drive out clean then return car to MT!! It's not difficult. Even better, next time ensure you get a hire car. As stated Lex do a great line in cleaning.

[airborne_artist]

Junior Rank earns approx £10 per hour
20 mins to wash car £3

Or the MT Officer could negotiate a volume discount rate with the local drive-through car-wash, and give each driver a wash token on collecting the vehicle. My local is £3.00, but I bet for 100/month they'd come down to £2.00 :ok:

[Lou Scannon]

I presume that the "customer" of the MT section has to carry our any major service that becomes due whilst he has the car out!

Time to offload MT and have the cars supplied by one of the hire firms -probably at a reduced cost. They would set up a facility on base, prep the cars and:ok: have them serviced.

[theboywide]

I'll tell you what - I'll wash an MT car when you go and get shot at in Iraq. How about that. What next - do I have to do the washing up after my meal in the mess? How about you do your job, I'll do mine.

[izod tester]

Does the RAF reimburse the cost of a car wash as well as the cost of the refuel? If so, then there is not a great problem in putting the car through the automatic car wash at the garage at the same time as refuelling it.

Otherwise, was there an automatic car wash available at MT? If not, then did MT provide the facilities to wash the car, including the changing room for the Sqn Ldr to change into overalls prior to washing the car? If MT do not provide the tools and the facilities to enable the car washer to keep his uniform clean, then they cannot expect the order to be complied with.

[Widger]

I understand that new regulations to come in this year require you to get the car serviced and taxed as well. (Bugga someone got there first) Additionally, for those using train or air transportation, you are required to sweep your seats clear food trays away and empty the bins before you leave the train/plane.
I cannot believe that this regulation is in force. I have never ever washed a hire car and that is what it is .....a hire car. If we are going to apply commercial practices to support services then commercial service is what is expected. The FMT regulations are outdated and hark back to when we had proper MT vehicles. This car was obviously part of the LEX contract. The person who wrote that contract or the bod responsible for MT orders obviously needs a kick up the harris. All that is required is that you refuel the car and dont dent it!

[RAF_Techie101]

If said Sqn Ldr was so bothered about his uniform and so incapable of keeping himself dry whilst washing his car, then yes, perhaps he should wear overalls... Generally I find the standing upwind helps keep me dry when I'm washing my car...

[12 twists per inch]

OverTq, Tourist,
I hope this is a wind up as I thought all dinosaurs were extinct in our expeditionary Air Force.....a bit of councelling from a rough ar$e SNCO is in order with that attitude.

[OverTq]

Theboywide "I'll tell you what - I'll wash an MT car when you go and get shot at in Iraq. How about that. What next - do I have to do the washing up after my meal in the mess? How about you do your job, I'll do mine."

Bin shot at in NI more times than I care to remember. This Sqn Ldr had just done a 10 hr day - 350 mile round trip - including being beasted by the Navy in the dunker while the MT laddos were sitting in their armchairs reading (I suppose) the Sun. Why shouldn't they do the job?

[Widger]

It is not about being Dinosaurs, I have every sympathy with this person regardless of rank. We are being given a commercial service and therefore commercial levels of customer care should also be applied!
You are not expected to clean your office, there is a contractor to do it, this equally applies to your hire car. I would be interested to know if MT on the unit in question were Service or Civilian Contractor. If contractor then F%%% em!

[dessert_flyer]

maybe im getting the wrong perspective on this thread, its not about the rank of who was washing the car, but really more about the fact that the car had to be washed. If the MT section provided adequate washing facilities then it wouldnt be so bad, however in my experience the facilities provided are very poor, certainly not up to the standard of the local BP station, and what should be a quick 10 minutes in a car wash and a tidy up inside, turns into an hour of trying to find correct cleaning equipment and enough water to wash the vehicle. Like most things in this mans Air Farce, tools are not good enough to do the required job and facilities scarce.
D-F

[Widger]

Wedge....thin end of!!!

[Tourist]

Twisted 12 incher

Without wanting to spread into other areas of discussion, where on earth are you going to find a decent hairy @rsed stoker equivalent SNCO in the Crabs!

Your lot couldn't scare my daughter!

[Tourist]

..........and expeditionary.............don't get me started!
If there is a 5* hotel there, it aint an expedition. A safari at most.

[OverTq]

The Helpful Stacker . Isn't your title an oxymoron?

Numerous officers here use MT cars every day. They are delivered to their OMQ/ Mess, collected at the end of the day, refuelled and washed. They, like said Sqn Ldr will have signed all the orders, so it's not just 'the one with the flag on front'

[Strictly Jungly]

to see our RAF collegues squabbling over such a serious issue..............oh dear.............

[Roguedent]

Seems to me that this thread is about empires and them and us!! RAF Techie, did some Officer b#llock you recently, because you seem to have scant dis-regard of rank. A senior officer doing manual labour in by gone days would of been laughed at, and a yound LAC techie would of been tasked. The days when a officer had all the perks have long since gone. We now have Mess accommadation which is worse than the Airmens/Airwomens (to be PC), more responsibility (maybe not aircrew) and what thanks do we get. Some person who should of had ambition at school, griping that officers should do it themselves. If you want to see what life is like on the otherside then go to the commissing club, otherwise wind it in. Tourist, I refer you back to other threads where if you would like your aircrew tired whilst flying you about then by all means put us in tents. Then you would have to deal with every now and then losing a few hundred soldiers. Alternately you could have well rested aircrew to get you home safely to your loved ones.

Back to the thread, let LEX clean them, its their car, and what happens if you damage it going through a car wash, do you pay?? or would MT put it down to natural wear and tear??

Best get my cheque book then!!:{

[Northern Circuit]

If MT orders state that all vehicles should be washed by the driver then so they should be.

If MT orders gave a caveat for sqn ldrs not to wash vehicles that would be fine.

But they dont.

Orders should be followed - thats what they are there for

If they are bolleaux - they should be changed.

[The Helpful Stacker]

The Helpful Stacker . Isn't your title an oxymoron?

Unless you've required my services in the past you wouldn't know. Not all stackesr say "you're not entitled" you know?

There is a solution to this though. If the journey is of sufficient millage, you didn't gain your driving licence through the forces and the course is tiring enough then you could also tick 'driver required' on the FMT1000 (I think thats what they are now days).

MT drivers are there to drive. If they drive they clean the car.

[Tourist]

Erm Rogue......?
I am aircrew......?

[Chinny Crewman]

Am quite sure that MT orders at Odiham state that Officers and WOs do not have to refuel or clean vehicles prior to returning them to MT? In fact seem to recall the MTO sent out an e-mail to this effect fairly recently. Obviously different Stations different policy!

[RAF_Techie101]

Rogue

Nope, no bollocking, i just hate the whole 'I'm better than you, therefor you should do my work for me' attitude exhibited by this officer. There really is no reason why he shouldn't have to clean a car he got dirty himself, regardless of rank (which in the grand scheme of things isn't so high...)

[Widger]

Techie,

There is ABSOLUTELY a reason why he should not clean the car.....ITS A HIRE CAR!!!!

If the MT orders state that it is to be cleaned by the hirer, then the orders should be changed.

[OverTq]

RAF Techie 101. Why can you not accept that some ARE better than you. This guy has spent 30 going all over the world for King and Country. Has spent several of those 30 years away from home. Been posted to all sorts of dodgy places (certainly more dodgy than Kinloss). Aquired thousands of flying hours in various types of dodgy aircraft in (literally) dozens of countries. On this particular day (as I mentioned before) he'd been up since crack of sparrows. Is it asking too much that when he does get back to base, he can just drop the bloody car off at MT?!

[OverTq]

RAF Techie 101 PS. I wish that when I was in the mob I had a job where I could spend most of the day reacting to posts on forums like this. Sadly, I was too busy working!

[Northern Circuit]

RAF Techie 101. Why can you not accept that some ARE better than you. This guy has spent 30 going all over the world for King and Country. Has spent several of those 30 years away from home. Been posted to all sorts of dodgy places (certainly more dodgy than Kinloss). Aquired thousands of flying hours in various types of dodgy aircraft in (literally) dozens of countries. On this particular day (as I mentioned before) he'd been up since crack of sparrows. Is it asking too much that when he does get back to base, he can just drop the bloody car off at MT?!

I completely understand why there should be dispensation not to wash the car.

I completely fail to understand why this dispensation should be rank orientated.

I thought we'd lost the 'batty' approach outside of the mess.

[BEagle]

Is there any requirement to wash the car particularly well......?

:E

FFS - if they want the damn thing returned washed, check first that they'll pay for it, then pop in to the local car wash and keep a receipt. If they say they won't pay, tell them to ram it!

Now - if you get your own car dirty through using it for service purposes, presumably you are also entitled to cover the cost of having it cleaned? If not, why not?

[The Helpful Stacker]

I thought we'd lost the 'batty' approach outside of the mess.

Indeed.

Doesn't the AP3003 (don't groan at the back) mention that when the RAF was formed the 'us and them' approach as seen in the RN and Army was frowned upon by Trenchard, wishing instead to have a force of professionals rather than a class based system?

Aren't we in the modern RAF in more enlightened times?

I'm not suggesting that officers and SNCO's do a spell on SWO's gang or that we are some kind of workers utopia (comrade) but by God people, we're talking about a Sqn Ldr washing a car!

We all bleed the same colour blood and outside the gates and out of uniform you are no better or worse than any other plebe out there.

I pity some of these attitudes. Oh how you shall tumble to earth with a bang one day when you re-enter the real world.

[12 twists per inch]

OverTq. Totally agree about the whole washing car thing but I find the us and them (lords and servants) idea that you long for totally out of date and downright rude. Your Sqn Ldr of 30 years experience is certainly to be respected for all he has achieved and experienced but no more so than a 'servant' non-commissioned rank such as Chief Tech or above.

People take certain paths, many of my colleagues and friends; I hasten to add, are front-end crew and as part of the deal, have to be officers. They are professionals and I respect them for that. I myself chose the non-commissioned route (and yes I was a very high achiever at school before some to$$er says I should have done better,- I’ll take you on at qualifications anytime!;) ). I like engineering, I am blinkin good at it, and my flyboy colleagues respect me for that as the professional that I am. Now times have changed, the Air Force has moved on. You would be surprised how educated us 'servants' now are, often more than .... wait for it...some officers. So stop this utter crap that officers are better than airmen and get out and meet the workers before you make offensive and ludicrous remarks

[12 twists per inch]

Oh sorry, just remembered your still a wannabee, who left the Air Force ten years ago and still wants a bit of the action. Thankfully we are better off without you.

[Roguedent]

As I don't know you, Secret doesn't actually count as a Aircraft type. I took from your posts that you were a trench digger. Well you sounded like one!!:ok:

[TWOL8]

Strikes me that the min point of this thread is that to clean the car was a requirement laid out in orders. Whether the car was MT or Lex if orders say it has to be returned clean then that is the way it should be returned. As far as i'm aware, nowhere does it say obeying orders is a choice when a certain rank is achieved. To many people seem to think they should be entitled to choose the tasks that they so readily take the pay for. :\ :\

[12 twists per inch]

TWOL8. Well said :p

[Tourist]

The simple point of having large quantities of low ranked people in the Military pyramid is so that the menial jobs can be carried out by people they are more suited to. ie people who should have tried harder at school.
And don't tell me that you were very sucessful at school but chose not to be an officer. That just shows a lamentable lack of confidence/ambition

[12 twists per inch]

And that post shows a total lack of reality. Get with modern times wannabee

[TWOL8]

Tourist,
you,re still straying off the point, MT Orders. If the RAF had the manpower to allocate all the 'menial' tasks to JRs perhaps the MT orders would have been different.... but as they weren't it's a case of stop moaning and pick up a sponge!!!!!!!

[BEagle]

Clean as in simply 'not dirty' - no mud and grime?

Or clean as in washed, waxed and valeted?

Liked the story of the RCDS visit where some unit was ordered by the Staish of the place holding the visit to send a 'clean aircraft' for the RCDS lot to gaze at.

So they did. Reasonably presentable, but no tanks, pylons or warry things. Staish went nuts - and over came a truck containing all the bolt on goodies and the lads with the spanners!

This officer v the rest nonsense is a bit OTT. There are the traditional courtesies of the service, but would any officer push past a line of airmen queuing up at clothing stores, for example? I b£oody hope not!

Clean your own boots!

[Pontius Navigator]

Only certain trades are entitled to overalls and other PPE. Has the sqn ldr, or any other B class driver undergone the appropriate car cleaning course?

Have the hazards associated with getting up close and personal with that type of car been pointed out?

MT driving rules also apply.

His working day starts at the time he/she picks up the car. It ends after 1 hours (I think) hard limits. He may drive for up to 9 hours with statutory breaks.

Clearly if the call to wash the car came after 11 hours duty he could state that he was now 'in-rest' and would attend to the task at the next available time on duty. If he agreed to wash the car, MT would be required to drive the car to the wash area for him.

I am not making this up but H&S and EP are mandatory and you would be crucified for breaching their rules. Use their rules to your advantage.

[Data-Lynx]

It is probably just me and my strange sense of proportion but three full pages of posts in 6 hours on grubby MT seems a bit skewed. However, never one to miss an opportunity so may I wholeheartedly thank the excellent MT service provided by a predominantly RAF crew at a NW London HQ almost on the Herts border. They are a cheerful bunch who are open before dawn until well after dusk. The cars are de-iced and warmed up when frozen and the team manage short notice requests with skill. It means that the HQ staff can concentrate on early starts and late returns to achieve full day visits and meetings. Neither MT nor the customers have access to a fixed car wash so they sort it out with a lance.

Returning to the first post, I seem to remember that Yeovilton had a fixed vehicle washing facility that rarely worked in the summer and never in the winter. Is it better?

[OverTq]

I am more than a little surprised at the vitriol my original post has generated. I have never had an 'us and them' mentality, and neither does the S/L I referred to. I simply feel that some 'erbert in MT (probably a civvy) who is paid for looking after their vehicles should do the job. Same applies if the driver in similar conditions had been an SAC - IT'S NOT WHAT HE'S PAID FOR. As far as me being a 'wannabee' (whatever that is, 12 twists per inch), just 'cos I left 10 yrs ago doesn't mean I don't still work for them and am glad to do so. Wouldn't wash the damn car myself, though!

[teeteringhead]

Orders should be followed - thats what they are there for

.... I believe this statement is known in legal circles as the "Nuremburg Defence" ....;)

[Mach the Knife]

Ah, all becomes clear! Used an MT vehicle last week, fine hire car it was too, very fast and shiney. On returning said vehicle, spotty LAC asked "Has it been cleaned and refuelled?" Answer of course was "NO and NO, its parked outside feel free to go and do it for me, here are the keys". Wonderful thing delegation. Who writes the MT orders anyway, probably the same buffoon that insists on personnel doing the BFG tick test before a det to France.

[Melchett01]

This has absolutely nothing to do with 'us' and 'them'.

The nub of the question is, if MT don't drive the cars, don't wash them, don't refuel them and send them back to Lex for servicing .......what the :mad: do they do???? Just because you are an SAC/E Grade civil servant, it has nothing to do with why you should be doing your job. You are paid to sort out the MT plot and associated tasks - you can't just pick and choose which crappy parts of the job you don't want to do. Otherwise,next time you're off on det, after 3 days at Cerney and a 10 hr flt, you might just find yourself on the line refuelling the jets because other people don't want to do their job after you have cluttered up and used their ac :E

All in all, surely a candidate for leaning if ever I heard of one if they refuse to look after their own section's assets; leave all the keys on a rack in the Guard Room and with the money saved allow people to refuel / wash at the local garage. Any snags, take it up to MT who will have been leaned or amalgamated with GEF for the one remaining bloke to flag up the fault with the car to Lex / GEF.

Bit of a pyric victory for the proletariat me thinks. Grenade thrown, donning helmet and waiting for incoming turnips and such like.

[JessTheDog]

The whole thing is symptomatic of the "cut corners and dump more on those in uniform." Cars should be washed by someone employed to look after cars rather than someone whose job is something else, regardless of rank. There is an entire civilian industry based around car washing, valeting and servicing and someone employed in this role will wash the car to a higher standard than someone back from a meeting.

Perhaps this is something to do with civilian contractors cutting corners and overheads to bump up profits...

[The Helpful Stacker]

All in all, surely a candidate for leaning......

I agree with that fully, I can't see how having a separate trade for doing what every other trade (except Pers Admin possibly) does as part of its normal duties is cost effective, but that not whats being questioned here. Whats being questioned is when does a person attain such a lofty position that they can pick and choose which orders to comply with?

[Tourist]

When you can rewrite them, obviously.
You are missing the point though.

[Melchett01]

THS

Probably the best reply to that one came from one of our squippers when I arrived on sqn. Had to get some patches put onto uniform and was told that for officers and aircrew, the squippers would do it for them, while the rest of the sqn would have to do it themselves. I did ask about that and the NCO stated that the officers and crews had enough niff-naff and trivia running the sqn to have to sort out minutiae like that so they would happily take one bit of crap of our plates.

And on reflection I can see his point. Your average junior rank comes into work at the appointed time, takes their breaks during the day in addition to lunch and then pokes off at cease work. During that time, they do exactly what they are trained and paid to do. The officers and crews have all the problems associated with leading and managing, that the juniors rarely see - it is our job to divert the flak and triv so they can do their job. Given that,I think it is fair not to expect officers to have to do the triv job like washing cars. When the SAC Scroggs in MT wants to get involved with leadership / management issues, secondary duties and being expected to cover multiple jobs, all taken as being part of your normal daily duties, then I think its fair that I do the washing cars thing.

Nothing to do with a lofty status, all to do with responsibility held by those positions and the associated crap taking up all our time to start with. I'd gladly swap some of my duties for a quiet half hour washing a car in the sun!

[Climebear]

Tourist

The simple point of having large quantities of low ranked people in the Military pyramid is so that the menial jobs can be carried out by people they are more suited to. ie people who should have tried harder at school.


What an incredibly narrow-minded (almost bigoted) comment that shows a complete misunderstanding of the quality of airmen in the Service today. I visited the School of Recruit training last year and met airmen recruits (who will now be 'low ranked people in the Military pyramid') with degrees both at bachelor and at master levels. There are many like them serving throughout the Service. These people can hardly be described as 'people who should have tried harder at school'. I, on the other hand, was thrown out of school before obtaining any A-levels. Perhaps, I should have 'tried harder at school'; but, then again, I am doing pretty well at this officer game.

I am sure that when you were trying hard at school you learnt all about proper nouns - and how the word military isn't one of them.

[Tourist]

What a searing indictment of our current "university" (read polytechnic:yuk: )system, that oiks can get degrees nowadays.

[Maple 01]

Alternatively rather than squabbling over the Officer/Aircrew/Airman divide find out which prat allowed the 'driver washes car' cr@p, shoot them, and renegotiate the contract - simple, everyone happy. NO-ONE should have to wash a hire car - do Avis expect such service from the punters at LHR?

BTW, if anyone should get perks it should be aircrew of all ranks IMO, us 'guins (be they Officer or Baldric) can get on with the niff-naff and trivia allowing them to perform the duties the organisation is designed for.
er.....am I beginning to sound like BEags?

What a searing indictment of our current "university" (read polytechnic )system, that oiks can get degrees nowadays.
Quite funny, one of my bosses tried the old 'should have worked harder at school' banter when we were having a heated debate, it was then he found out I had a 2:1 which trumped his 3 in Applied Origami - I still wasn't bright enough to make officer :{

[Pontius Navigator]

Just a reminder though, this wash your own vehicle is NOT new. 'twas always thus as far back as I can remember.

Usually the order was honoured in the breach and not the deed. Can't remember a sqn waggon pre 1980 being washed. Remember being astonished at a JO in 8 washing one. Then in the late '80s at Waddo - drive to Germany, drive to Zeebrugge, ferry to Felixstowe, drive to Waddo, wash vehicle.

Really we should have just shoved it through the local car wash. Then again, do you ever get a good clean on your own car, in winter, after dark?:}

[Climebear]

Tourist

What a searing indictment of our current "university" (read polytechnic )system, that oiks can get degrees nowadays.

So what is your degree then and from what university?

[Maple 01]

I think that's the problem though Pontius, it's a left over from RAF MT days pre-contractorisation – bin it, obsolete, like officers wearing spurs

[rej]

If I am tasked to travel on service business and instructed that it must be done in a 'service sourced' vehicle, then as far as I can see said source should arrange for the appropriate actions to be carried out upon the vehicle's return; will they be expecting me to change the oil and brakes next?

However, if HM allows me to use my car and reimburse my travel costs, then it's my vehicle and I will wash it when, and if, I want to (or will I not be able to claim mileage costs unless I can prove that it has been refuelled and washed).

Not expecting to have to wash the damn thing does not show a lack of respect for colleagues of a lesser rank. It is trivia that I certainly don't have time for - you only have to look at the state of my private car to see that!

Of course the obvious answer is to install automatic car washes at the entrance to every MT section (there'll only be a few stns to worry about in a few years time so it won't cost a great deal of taxpayers money) and then the car can be washed while you sit in it to complete the necessary paperwork.

Where, oh where is this organization going? (maybe they should add an annual VMT (vehicle maintenance test) to go with the everything else- 3 returned dirty cars and it's an admin discharge!)

[Tourist]

Climebear, I find the supposition that I might have a degree frankly insulting!
Degrees, as I am sure you are aware, are either for those unfortunate individuals born without sufficient family means to secure them a suitable commision, or revolting social climbers that don't know their place.
I'll have you know I'm neither!:E

[Climebear]

Tourist

Or perhaps you just didn't try hard enough at school.

If you are ever given the priviledge of commanding other ranks - I hope for the sake of your Service that nobady has given you it yet - I hope you realise that respect is a 2-way street.

[TWOL8]

[quote=Melchett01]THS

During that time, they do exactly what they are trained and paid to do. When the SAC Scroggs in MT wants to get involved with leadership / management issues, secondary duties and being expected to cover multiple jobs, all taken as being part of your normal daily duties, then I think its fair that I do the washing cars thing.

Isn't that the job that officers are "trained and paid to do"

you cant have it both ways!!!!!:confused: :confused:

[Tourist]

Social Climbear
You really need to relax your grip on the hook
http://bestsmileys.com/fishing/1.gif

[TWOL8]

Tourist,

Perhaps Climebear is just worried that someone who thinks like you may actually be in a position of authority. !!!:(

[Wrathmonk]

Perhaps the answer is to follow the procedures I believe the army use (and Helpful Stacker feel free to correct me - assuming you and the Helpful Stacker on the "other" rumour service are one and the same you are ex-army after all).

I believe they do not allow officers to drive as, should they dink a vehicle the only ("legal") recourse is a CM whereas a driver (ie soldier) can be (at the moment) charged. As said officer is not driver he is thus not responsible for the cleaning!

Not an ideal soloution granted, but one that means MT do their job and ageing sqn ldr can have a few pints at lunch to recover from the trauma of being strapped in a rubbish skip, in the dark, tipped upside down in a swimming pool and told he has to wait for all the other occupants to vacate the skip before moving.

:ok:

[Climebear]

Tourist

I'm quite happy with my social position.

Perhaps you need to tighten your grip on reality. By the way, does the atmospheric mix on earth effect you when you are visiting?

[theboywide]

Overtq,
You misread me!
I meant that MT should do their job and wash the bloody cars!

[Pontius Navigator]

rej has probably hit the nail on the head when he refers to contracts.

IF the contract says that vehicles will be returned to the contractor is a particular state then it would be quite in order for the contractor ro request that it be done and, if it is not, complain to the CMT. It is not for a civilian contractor, albeit ex-RAF MT perhaps, to demand said sqn ldr, or SAC, to do the cleaning.

Check with the CMT and find out exactly what the MAC says about MT deliverables etc.

[TWOL8]

Pontius,
It is not for contractor to request said Sqn Ldr to clean the car, but it is for said Sqn Ldr to do as laid out in orders. There is a fine line between too busy and just being lazy, or thinking that type of taek is beneath you.

[OverTq]

TWOL 8 - I think you still miss the point. This guy had been on the road since 4am, had a hard time in the Dunker (if you don't know what that is, you're lucky) driven back up the M5/6 - in best/ reasonable clobber, then gets grief for not washing the festering car. I can't believe the RAF has come to this. Contractorisation is probably the major culprit, with jobsworths doing their thing, but I still believe there is a pecking order and expecting this individual - in this situation- to set to with a pressure washer and foam brush when returning a vehicle to MT to be 'beyond the pale'! Rant nearly over. OverTq

[TWOL8]

I think i have the issue just fine. If it is a matter of fatigue thats fine but as you put it, it was a question of loss of status of serving officers. Do you object to the fact that the cleaning had to be done, or that it had to be done by a Sqn Ldr. :)

[southside]

This really is the funniest thread I have seen for a long time and to be honest it is showing the RAF as a complete and utter waste of time and money. Why oh why can't you lot organise for a car wash and petrol facilities at the drop off point? It doesnt take much to purchase one of those big car wash machines (the RN have managed to buy them easily enough). Come on boys, rather than mank and moan about life in the light blue why don't you get off your fat shiny ar$e's and do something about it?

[ratty1]

It doesnt take much to purchase one of those big car wash machines (the RN have managed to buy them easily enough).

How do they get those big boats through it then?

[Out Of Trim]

I just don't understand this thead -

Surely the Occifers would be provided with an Mt Driver to take care of all this type of thing.

I mean - surely they don't allow self drive! - How would that look!

-- I remember being ATC duty driver at RAF Manston during a Financial Moretorium around 1980 ish - ie. We had to book out the vehicles daily on foot! I kid you not!

We had two Landrovers so that meant we had to walk to MT twice!

Only Joking - we wer'nt that stupid - But refuelling was fun. Washing them! - what was that?

[southside]

Youv'e clearly not been to Devonport and seen the sheds. You drive the boats in....wash em and then drive them out. squeasy peasy

[ZH875]

Youv'e clearly not been to Devonport and seen the sheds. You drive the boats in....wash em and then drive them out. squeasy peasyThat's because it is more expensive to train bods like southside to wash things than to install decent wash facilities.

[Melchett01]

quote=Melchett01]THS

During that time, they do exactly what they are trained and paid to do. When the SAC Scroggs in MT wants to get involved with leadership / management issues, secondary duties and being expected to cover multiple jobs, all taken as being part of your normal daily duties, then I think its fair that I do the washing cars thing.

Isn't that the job that officers are "trained and paid to do"

you cant have it both ways!!!!!

TWOL8 - yes it is the job that we're trained to do. Probably much in the same way that sorting out ALL aspects of MT is what SAC Scroggs in MT Flt is trained to do. I do my job, so he should put his 14th cup of tea and the Sun down and do his!!!!!! And yes that does include washing and refuelling,

[DummyRun]

Just got in from my club to find a jolly huge tiff going on about dirty cars! 'parently seems to be a Gentlemen vs players issue. Landed earlier this week after a spot of the old night flying and thought the old kite looked a bit grubby so detailed a little man off do fetch me a bucket of hot, soapy water to wash the old girl down with. Then thought the bally, dirty old Houtchin thingy looks a bit grubby so gave him a good scub, jolly nice chap driving crew wheels even dropped me off near my car ! thought to self " what a splendid fellow you are" gosh, I realised as I disembarked the crew charabanc, best I follow you back to motor stable yard place so I can help you put your carriage to bed clean, ney,ney Sir he cried I'll take care or her for you........

Ihave a full LGV (HGV in old money) and would be more than happy do do a job swap with any 4-eng turbo-prop qualified MT employee. Oh, and I'll even clean the windows for him, It'll save him doing the third wave on NVG's with a windscreen that you wouldn't even drive your car home from work with!!

Come on boy's, as the arguement goes the Staish shouldn't wash his car but OC Ops should, how often do you think the SWO has washed an MT vehicle?

Methinks I detect a smell of burning and it doesn't smell of commissioned Tolpudddle resident.

Load Moving..........

[Kitbag]

I was so amazed at some of rhe things being said on this thread I actually registered to make a comment myself. Perhaps a few more points to throw in the melting pot to keep things warm:

1. Most stations have 'Lease' cars, not hire cars- there is a difference, those educated with or without degrees can look that up.

2. MT orders are generally signed off by an Officer who is in charge of all logistics on a unit. Most probably a Wing Commander.

If this subject is so touchy, surely one could approach said WingCo and suggest a change?

As for the rest of the bleating, perhaps if you don't like following the orders (and that really IS the point) and can't be bothered doing something about them, you should get out :ok:

[Delta Hotel]

Am I missing the point????

I thought this was a PILOTs website. If so, I would recommend that the techies, stackers, adminers and other blunties go and find their own whinging website. Should a pilot wash a MT car = No. Why Not? Because he/she worked harder at school than the rest of you, and has better things to do with their incredibly important time. Go and get a life you wasters.......:hmm:

Any Comments?????

[Kitbag]

Delta Hotel, Yeah, I'll bite:

From the intro to this forum

'A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here'

Please try and remember we are supposed to work together.

:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

TWOL8, I repeat my point if the CONTRACT RULES state . . . the the contractor can REQUEST.

I agree the military MTO can sign ORDERS on behalf of the wg cdr in charge of technical equipments - I lost track of the name after it went from OC Tech Wg :) - then the sqn ldr ought to obey them if they can do complied with legally.

For a 4am start, let us assume a 5am at MT, then the cleaning process MUST be completed by 1600. How long was the drive? 2 hours each way minimum? Breakfast and Lunch. Dunker. Not many hours left in the day.

Does that MT section provide PPE and instruction on car washing? I repeat the point, H&S and EP rules are non-negotiable.

Other points about relative value of work are also true, an none of this officer-airmen cr*p. It is EXACTLY the same arguement that the airmen have been advancing for 20 years as to why they should not do gate guards.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Am I missing the point????

I thought this was a PILOTs website. If so, I would recommend that the techies, stackers, adminers and other blunties go and find their own whinging website. Should a pilot wash a MT car = No. Why Not? Because he/she worked harder at school than the rest of you, and has better things to do with their incredibly important time. Go and get a life you wasters.......:hmm:

Any Comments?????

And the tired old quote shall arise again from the ether, although this time accompanied by a couple of other usual suspects.

:rolleyes:

[theboywide]

I was so amazed at some of rhe things being said on this thread I actually registered to make a comment myself. Perhaps a few more points to throw in the melting pot to keep things warm:

1. Most stations have 'Lease' cars, not hire cars- there is a difference, those educated with or without degrees can look that up.

2. MT orders are generally signed off by an Officer who is in charge of all logistics on a unit. Most probably a Wing Commander.

If this subject is so touchy, surely one could approach said WingCo and suggest a change?

As for the rest of the bleating, perhaps if you don't like following the orders (and that really IS the point) and can't be bothered doing something about them, you should get out :ok:

So your telling pilots who have multi-million pounds worth of training to leave the RAF over MT being too lazy to wash a car. Its arseholes like you that cause us to have such a retention problem. Get a grip

[The Helpful Stacker]

So your telling pilots who have multi-million pounds worth of training to leave the RAF over MT being too lazy to wash a car. Its arseholes like you that cause us to have such a retention problem. Get a grip

No I think he's actually telling people who can't (or won't) follow orders to leave.

Service personnel can't pick and choose the orders they wish to obey.

As I've already said the obvious solution to this (and probably the safer one considering how knackering I'm led to believe the dunker course is) is to get a driver to do the driving, that really is what they are paid to do after all.

BTW, before any wag comments on how I can manage to reply to these posts whilst being so over-worked (or some such quip) I'm currently sat at home with Scarlet Fever.

[Matt Skrossa]

'BTW, before any wag comments on how I can manage to reply to these posts whilst being so over-worked (or some such quip) I'm currently sat at home with Scarlet Fever'.

Scarlet Fever, isn't she one of your MT drivers? Are you providing her with your favours so that she will wash your car when you return it to MT? Please let us know the truth!

[Pontius Navigator]

Is he actually chosing which orders with which to comply?

More likely he is prioritising. Prioritising goes on all the time and at its basic level is 'not complying with orders'.

"Though shall sign the order books every month" - does this mean before you go flying on the 1st or within one month of the last time you signed them?

Historically it meant that the signature had to be there every month before you flew and of course whenever an order changed. In practise the orders were signed, read or not, but the new orders were always read at least once.

Ideally you sat down and read the orders cover-to-cover. In the MT case this would include the driving of bowsers, refuelling aircraft, towing trailers etc 'cause you signed MT orders, not MT orders for the vehicle you are to take today.

In all tasks we prioritise. "Return this F6000 to PSF by . . . " "Fly a 4-ship . . ." OK one is fun writing devastatingly funny comments that you can put on Pprune as pearls of wisdom and the other is deadly boring - flown once flown 'em all.











Just joking:E

[The Helpful Stacker]

'BTW, before any wag comments on how I can manage to reply to these posts whilst being so over-worked (or some such quip) I'm currently sat at home with Scarlet Fever'.
Scarlet Fever, isn't she one of your MT drivers? Are you providing her with your favours so that she will wash your car when you return it to MT? Please let us know the truth!

Nope, its just the delightful Scarlet Fever illness that my daughter has managed to catch off some filthy child at her nursery then pass on to me.

[Tourist]

Probably incubated in the filth on some dirty MT car that the lazy Mt scrote couldn't be @rsed to clean!

[scan]

To save all the hassle why did said Sqn Ldr not take his own car and claim motor mileage on a 1771? Then get hi:ouch: s kids to wash his car.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Probably incubated in the filth on some dirty MT car that the lazy Mt scrote couldn't be @rsed to clean!

Thankfully my daughter would never come into contact with some God awful scally brat of an MT wallah as we live in our own home well away from my place of work.

Patch brats, as bad as ginger children?

[El-Dog]

I wonder how many RAF wannabees have read this thread and are as we speak running to the RN recruiting office!!

[Tourist]

Unfortunately, a lot of the RAF wannabies are posting on it!

[The Helpful Stacker]

Unfortunately, a lot of the RAF wannabies are posting on it!

Apparently some Army ones too.

[Tourist]

I may have flown with the Amateur Air Corps on occasion, but I feel I must point out that the Army is in fact the only service I have not had a commision from!

[Kitbag]

Tut tut Boywide, such language. The simple point I was trying to make is that orders are there for a reason. If they are inappropriate then there is a simple process to get them changed, until then they apply across the board- simple military discipline I thought.

BTW, surely the policy makers are responsible for retention issues- New Thread anybody?

[Combine Harvester]

Tourist,

I believe the correct wording would be:

'The only Service in which I have not held a Commission'.

Oh dear, I fear I'm getting more like Morse every day. Still, nearly opening time.

[Strictly Jungly]

about MT and now taking in Scarlet Fever, Ginger personnel etc etc...........how the long winter evenings must fly for some of you.............:ugh:

[RAF_Techie101]

It actually started off as as myself and Helpful Stacker not being too impressed at said Sqn Ldr complaining about having to wah his MT car purely on the fact that he WAS a Sqn Ldr...

Since I vanishe dto work at 4 yesterday afternoon it appears to have blossomed into a variety of different angles on the subject...

[Climebear]

Combine Harvester

Do you think that Tourist would have been able to write coherently had he 'tried harder at school'?

[Combine Harvester]

Climebear,

You may suggest that; I couldn't possibly comment. Anyone fancy a pint?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Climebear,
You may suggest that; I couldn't possibly comment. Anyone fancy a pint?

Why not. I'll get some erk to fetch it for us.

;)

[Combine Harvester]

Good show. Have him 'cut away' and make it so; mine's an IPA! Ah, I seem to have neglected to bring my wallet with me. Have the chap settle with the landlord and I'll put in a good word for his 6000.

[Tourist]

Ooh.......Social Climbear...............is that another nibble.....http://bestsmileys.com/fishing/3.gif

[Climebear]

Tourist (just visiting earth)

The words pot, kettle, and black spring to mind.

[Boogeyboard]

With a modicum of respect Tourist (and a modicum, I'm sure, is all you deserve) the status of the services today only reflects the abuse of priveledges clearly expoused by the likes of numpties like you in the past.

Whatever the lack of priviledge the guys are experiencing today, you are to be held responsible and accountable. Wherever you were based I would lay good odds that it is a better place for you having departed.

[Tourist]

And another!http://bestsmileys.com/fish/20.gif

[CashMachine]

Hey, I'm back. Got banned for a week for some reason, the moderators won't tell me why!
Anyway, onto the topic
The simple answer is - if you don't want to wash a vehicle when you return then ask MT for a driver as well. However, if you want the convenience of driving it yourself and not having to sit there for 4 hours making small talk with some LAC MT driver then self-drive and put up with spending 10 minutes washing the car (or take it into the local car wash and pay for the cheapest wash!).
Of course there is another issue, all the MT washes I've ever seen have a bin full of cold water that had some wash fluid added sometime in the last month, a couple of brushes with hardly any heads left and a cold water hose, so you end up with a vehicle that was dirtier than when you went in! And of course there is the H&S issue, especially in the winter months when the water on the floor freezes.
MT do issue hire cars as well, usually if you want a one way journey. These, of course, don't need cleaning when you've finished with them.
Oh, and you "highly intelligent" officers out there, remember the old addage - the Army and Navy all go into battle together, we switched on Air Force erks send you lot to do the dirty work while we go back for another cup of tea!!!!! Who's the intelligent ones then?:ok:

[Tourist]

My god, it's like the Grand Banks!
http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/2.gif

[Climebear]

Tourist

Your attempts to cover up your inadequacies by claiming that your condescending and/or poorly constructed posts were merely a grand fishing expedition appear to have failed.

Have a nice weekend.

[TWOL8]

[quote=Pontius Navigator]Is he actually chosing which orders with which to comply?

More likely he is prioritising. Prioritising goes on all the time and at its basic level is 'not complying with orders'.


Pontius,
prioritising is fine, it's basically choosing the order in which you carry out tasks. To not do something because you think its beneath you is another matter entirely.

[Tourist]

Thanks, you too.

[OverTq]

:ok:
My thanks to all my readers. you have lightened (a bit) a relatlvely quiet day. Don't forget to wash your cars this weekend (or get your wife to do it for you if you are an orficer!).

[Pontius Navigator]

Funny that everyone has assumed the car driver would be male. What of the other sex? Their clothing is likely to be even less appropriate for car washing than someone who has just been dunking.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

I've been out of the RAF for 10 years. Talking to an ageing Sqn Ldr today, was a bit taken aback by the apparent loss of status of serving officers. He used an MT car for a journey to the dunker at Yeovilton, leaving home at 4am. Returned to base mid afternoon, refilled with fuel (why?) and took the car back to MT. An hour later he received a call from MT asking why he hadn't washed the car before returning it. Is it me?
You didn't mention whether the ageing Sqn Ldr went back to MT and washed the car or not.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Funny that everyone has assumed the car driver would be male. What of the other sex? Their clothing is likely to be even less appropriate for car washing than someone who has just been dunking.

The Royal Air Force is an equal opportunities employer.;)

[Pontius Navigator]

But the aging sqn ldr will not have the same opportunity to ladder his tights nor does he get the same uniform allowance. EO?

[Kitbag]

Paraphrase- 'All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others'- Eric Blair

[Giant Swede]

Cut the drivel, stop moaning and get on with your job. I do not give a monkeys what rank you are, we all know MT is mostly rubbish and SHQ is painful in the extreme. Set an example. But back to my first sentence, it is about time the "get on with your job" was performed to a higher standard by both MT and admin.:}

[hobie]

Always remember my Grandfather telling me he never drove a car in his life .... if he needed one he just had someone pick up a car and drive him to wherever he had to go .... :p

mind you he started off in the RFC before service in the RAF so maybe things have changed since his time .... ;)

[Washington_Irving]

Seven f:mad:g pages have been devoted to this crap? Jesus wept.

With all the other b0llocks that people have to withstand in service life today is this really the most worthwhile subject to discuss? Put the handbags away and get a grip folks- the pongos are laughing at you:

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=31892#561794

jEEZUS s***.. That has put my whole life in perspective...and I thought I had it tough bieng a disabled pensioner... I really feel for this guy.

[FCWhippingBoy]

Hahaha! I don't know what they're laughing at with threads entitled ...

"Is George Galloway a total C**T? (http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=30591.html)", "Bum Boy Barrymoore -off the hook again (http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=31862.html)", "Posh burds: better in bed? (http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=23316.html)" and my personal favourite, "wheres the wierdest place you've ever had a shiite? (http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=30664.html)"

OK, anyone else noticed the intelligence level over there?!

[Tourist]

Yes
So what
yes
CHOM

[Washington_Irving]

I've got to admit that in general the banter is funnier over there in the Naafi Bar than the mil forum of Pprune (it's more like Jetblast after 12 pints of wifebeater). Over in the grown-up/professional threads your won't read about an officer throwing his dolls out of his pram and bleating on about having to spend two minutes waving a f:mad:g pressure washer around the outside of Vauxhall Astra. Or on the offchance that you do, it'll be their troops laughing about what a c:mad:t he is and how the tom with a chronic case of NSU takes the time to rim his coffee mug every day. There's a quick lesson in leadership for you right there.

IHMO, any officer without stars or a flag who thinks that washing a car is beneath them should go and give themselves a good talking to, taking time to consider why the RAF has a reputation lower than whalesh1t among the other services because right now, girls, I'm ashamed to be associated with you.

I say again- get a grip.

[Tourist]

"any officer without stars or a flag who thinks that washing a car is beneath them should go and give themselves a good talking to"


Erm..........So you do agree that some people are too good/special/important to be troubled with cleaning their own car?

You just disagree with the placing of the threshold at Sqn Leader/Midshipman.

Interesting.

[jobsworth]

I can’t believe that I am replying to this thread but….

Just because a person who holds a commission, it does not mean that he/she has a better education than that of a person who does not hold a commission. I recently met a young chap who had joined the police with a degree and master’s degree in engineering. He did do well at school and by all accounts is a very smart and able person who would probably be looked down upon by the sharp flying end of a military arm.

If the rule is that you clean the vehicle after use, then you clean the vehicle after use. If you are unable to do such a task then I would worry if you were to be in command of an aircraft. If this order is deemed to be incorrect, do something about it, use your initiative and fix the problem, not just baulk at it being not right for you.

It’s a shame to see this attitude is still prevalent and only tarnishes the fond memories I have of being in the service. I would like to point out that the people likely to achieve this side of the fence are the smart ambitious individuals that are capable of getting stuck in and completing a task regardless of its nature.

The NAFFI Bar is a good laugh, well worth a look.

[timex]

As I've already said the obvious solution to this (and probably the safer one considering how knackering I'm led to believe the dunker course is) is to get a driver to do the driving, that really is what they are paid to do after all.


Its 2 hours getting wet.........how difficult is that? Most of them could do with a wash anyway!!;) ;)

[L1A2 discharged]

At a fairly senior age I had to do the dunker and stass thing to do the job at a very secret base near Stonehenge.

Being a non/minimal-swimmer I was bricking it. The diving chaps at the dunker gave me a nice red hat and an extra diver to make sure that I came out of the skip at the required time. All went well, thanks to them I successfully (sp?) completed and was then self loading supernumary on a variety of flying machines, even got a log book ... :eek:

But when we returned to the secret base we washed the car ..... :)

[Tourist]

I'm sure men of your advancing years shouldn't be bending down to wash cars Timex.

[timex]

I'm sure men of your advancing years shouldn't be bending down to wash cars Timex.

Which is why you take a young officer with you........;) ;)

[inditrees]

Ha Ha Ha Ha..........................................

Keep it coming girls, Blue Circle Airlines have done themselves proud with this bit of hand bag swinging.
What a gem this thread is, and it reminds me of why i became a civie.

[Roadster280]

My 2 cents:

This comes down to respect.

Any self respecting SWO or RSM is going to pick up a junior officer for dirty boots. Any complaints from said officer and they will find themselves doing the "Axminster shuffle", receiving career guidance from the CO. Not their direct boss, so embarrassing said boss. It therefore doesn't happen very often.

Said SWO/RSM isn't going to do the same to a 20yrs-in Sqn Ldr/Maj.

Same for MT. Car's in crap order. Plt Offr Bloggs will clean the bloody thing. Sqn Ldr Smith won't. Any MT wallah who insists the Sqn Ldr does it wants shooting. Any MT wallah who doesn't insist the Plt Offr cleans it, similarly wants shooting.

As for those misguided individuals who have equated "doing well at school" with being an Officer, I take pride that those who know better have corrected them. In the specific case of Aircrew, aptitude counts considerably. You can be a duffer at school with (I believe) 5 O levels or whatever they are called now and qualify for an SSC. This has been evidenced by some of the ATROCIOUS grammar and spelling of those posting. You must, however, have the aptitude to be a pilot. This does not imply superior-being status, and certainly not man management skills. However, it isn't possible to climb the greasy pole too high without these skills.

Holier-than-thou attitudes earn a good spading or jerry-canning in your doss bag. Not a mistake to repeat.

I was an Army sergeant. I served on a couple of RAF stations in my time. Two great years of my life. I'd defend the Royal Air Force as much as the Army. It's so sad to see bickering like this thread. Be ashamed gentlemen. Officer or not.

[Wyler]

8 pages on cleaning a poxy car.

Oh.....my......God.

:sad:

[basuto72]

I agree, lets put this to rest.

Airman, clean the soddin' car.

[Kitbag]

Sir, with respect, you got it dirty, you clean it (IAW MT orders)

:ok:

[Climebear]

Sir, with respect, you got it dirty, you clean it (IAW MT orders)

Just out of interest - who signed the orders (ie who is giving the order). Is it:
a. The MTO? If this is a junior officer, mod civilian or even a contractor and do they, therefore, have the authority to either issue an order to someone more senior or, in the case of the latter 2, issue and order.
b. The Stn Cdr? If it is then he/she would, most probably, be aircrew. So you can get this thing sorted out in the wonderful aircrew brotherhood (or sisterhood).
c. Anyone in the command chain in between a and b. In which case pick your own subsequent course of action.
Mind you, having picked up corpses and bits of corpses and loaded them onto the back of a lorry, I can't see what all the fuss is about. It's not the worst job in the world.
The worst job in the world is, of course, collecting Winston Churchill's bogies

[Widger]

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/navynews/editions/4808/images/21-Car%20wash.jpg

http://www.ahajokes.com/cartoon/wash.jpg

[Rev I. Tin]

I have just deleted my initial post before submitting because I suspect it would have added some petrol to the flames, and my boss knows who I am on these forums.
To summarise, without the 'due respect' I wouldn't clean anyone's car in the same vein I wouldn't clean their personal weapon!

Would look forward to the orderly room aswell. No doubt followed by the redress.

Gone are the days of subservient oiks. Clean your own car/rifle/hoop!

Bless your exhaust pipe.

It's a laugh in the RAF, us lucky few that got in!

[Kitbag]

Climebear, you are nearly correct. MT orders will come under the realm of OC Eng (as was when people knew what was going on). If officers feel the order is inappropriate there are clear and well trodden paths to have it changed. Seems to me that frankly only a very few feel it beneath them (and therefore attempt to change the order) or the SO1 has the policy that if you get it dirty, you clean it, or maybe the lower orders of the officer cadre haven't the energy (or wit) to suggest change other than on this little bunfight. Personally I think a quick trip to the local car wash is well worth while, especially in the winter.

BTW Widger, top pics :ok:

[BEagle]

Perhaps the technique demonstrated by the excellent Jeremy Clarkson should be considered as the optimum method for washing MT vehicles?

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/JC1.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/JC2.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/JC3.jpg

[Mud Clubber]

There is a class system within the forces, including the RAF. Moan about it as much as you like, it is there and as officers it is our job to uphold this divide as a pillar of military discipline. Officers are accommodated separately, travel separately and, most of the time, socialise separately from the Men and long may it continue.

Officers are, in general, busier than most. The exception being the swathe of blunties I see fleeing the station at 1645 each and every day. I certainly will not be dictated to by an increasingly large junta of union-men SNCOs that are determined to waste the valuable time of front-line aircrew.

When I return an MT wagon, I will certainly ensure that it is clean inside and all litter is removed, but washing it is not my job. That is for MT Flt to sort out. Perhaps they could do it between cups of tea/games of pool/darts?

[Rev I. Tin]

My, you listened to all the lectures at Cranwell didn't you?

Putz

[eagle 86]

Remove your fish'n'chip paper/paper cups/used condoms/vomit but apart from that the MT erks clean it.
To the bitter and twisted lower deck personnel on this site - pull your heads in - there is a rank structure in the armed forces and I would say the middle level of this structure, at least in the air forces of the world, do more - take more risks - and have more onerous tasks. An old and bold RAAF rigger once told me - "being in the Air Force is great - the officers are the ones that do all the fighting".
If we had no rank and we were all Misters then I can assure you some Misters would be more senior than others!
And don't get up me for ignoring females - I am trying to pretend they don't exist at the sharp end!
GAGS
E86

[C130 Techie]

Mud Clubber

I agree that there does still appear to be an officer/others class sytem in some areas of the RAF. In general it appears to be upheld by a few pompous @rses like yourself. In this day and age of reduced manning and higher tasking we all have to knuckle down and get on with the job in hand which sometimes means everyone getting their hands dirty.

The vast majority of the officers that I work with wouldn't give your class system the time of day and these officers cover the broad spectrum including aircrew. I also believe that this is representative of the majority of officers in todays RAF

I am all for discipline and leadership but this is born out of respect that is earned it is not a birth right or class system throwback. If you choose to treat all below you in the chain of command like serfs then I am not surprised that you have met with the 'junta of union men SNCOs', they are probably trying to protect their hard working troops from idiots like you.


If the MT orders say wash your car then wash your car, stop bl00dy whingeing and get a life

A NON UNION SNCO

[insty66]

I wish people would stop posting on this thread it's making folk look stupid (and many don't need any help on that score).:E

BTW
off topic but has anyone noticed southsnide dissapeared when tourist restarted postin? Coincidence? We should be told!

I know I know:ok:

[Tourist]

insty66.

There is personal and there is nasty.
And that's just nasty!

[thelynxeffect]

Maybe not, but an Army pilot washes his own aircraft! Professional pride.:rolleyes:

I only wash mine cos if i don't the tiffy gets a sad on and limits our flying, nowt to do with pride

[insty66]

Tourist,
I accept you are not he and apologise.:O :O

He has gone quiet though.

bu88er done it again

[Mr C Hinecap]

I have watched this thread with a knowledge of the dirge it would produce. As someone who has actually been an OC MT, I can say you lot moan and whine. Managing the difference between 'want' and 'need' is jolly fun. What you wanted was a gold-plated, mink lined service. What you needed was 4 seats, an engine and some diesel (single fuel concept). It was funny how expectations and variation between want and need increased with the regular working altitude of the customer :E

[Almost_done]

I have watched this thread with a knowledge of the dirge it would produce. As someone who has actually been an OC MT, I can say you lot moan and whine. Managing the difference between 'want' and 'need' is jolly fun. What you wanted was a gold-plated, mink lined service. What you needed was 4 seats, an engine and some diesel (single fuel concept). It was funny how expectations and variation between want and need increased with the regular working altitude of the customer :E

Well put and can this be an end to this debate, we as a Service have far more pressing concerns to worry about than 'should I wash a car', while funny and has been an enjoyable debate, it has shown the pettiness that is still prevalent in our whole rank structure.

If the orders say the driver cleans the vehicle, the driver cleans it, PERIOD.

Ergo, if the high and mighty Sqn Ldr didn't want to wash it then he asks for a driver, if not then he signs the vehicle out knowing full well the MT orders for that Base and complys with them per his annual signature on the afore mentioned MT orders.

Oh yes it's the 'Union Junta' that help to keep you flying Mub Clubber, if you're not happy with that fix then your own jet, if you are so important.

[Safety_Helmut]

Thud Blubber - you are a c0ck !

[Tourist]

Nice to see deployment of emergency banter at such an early hour Helmet.:ok: