Merged: Mid Air Collision Near Palmerston North

[Cheeky Whitey]

'NZ Herald'

09.02.06 10.05am


Two people are dead after two light planes collided in mid-air this morning.

The accident was reported to have happened near Palmerston North.

The two top dressing planes were reported to have crashed head on at Tokomaru.

No further details were immediately available.

Anyone know more?

[Luke SkyToddler]

10.45 am update, NZ Herald now saying both aircraft were from Massey. And crash happened near Shannon.

[Cheeky Whitey]

Two dead as planes 'collide' near Palmerston North

09.02.06 10.45am UPDATE


Two people are confirmed dead after two light planes collided near Shannon in the Manuwatu this morning.

Inspector Michael Coleman said two light planes from Massey crashed in mid air near Shannon, 33km southwest of Palmerston North.

Both the sole occupants have been confirmed dead, he said.

Police were at the two crash sites and Civil Aviation had been advised.

He did not confirm reports that the aircraft involved were top dressing planes .

No further details were immediately available.

[Cypher]

School of Aviation planes in fatal crash
Two single engine Piper Cherokee training planes from the School of Aviation were involved in a mid-air collision near Shannon just before 10am this morning.

Both sole occupants of the planes have been confirmed dead. The pilots were both students of the school, their names have not yet been released.

Head of the School of Aviation Captain Ashok Poduval expressed his sorrow about the accident. He says the School is offering trauma counselling to staff and students who may be impacted by the accident. He says the University will be working with the Civil Aviation Authority to establish the cause of the collision.

Captain Poduval says he will be contacting their families to offer the University’s support at this very sad time.

Created: 9 February, 2006

http://masseynews.massey.ac.nz/2006/Press_Releases/02-09-06.html

:(

[defiant]

Two dead in two plane collision
09 February 2006

Two people are confirmed dead after two light planes collided near Shannon in the Manawatu this morning.

Inspector Michael Coleman said two planes from Massey crashed in mid air near Shannon, 33km southwest of Palmerston North.

Both the sole occupants have been confirmed dead, he said.

Police were at the two crash sites and Civil Aviation had been advised, he said.

Local resident Brian Jones told NZPA he was outside pruning fruit when he heard a huge bang.

"I was outside when I heard a bang and that's when the plane did a whirly-down to the ground," said Mr Jones, 75, who lives near the site of the accident.

"After that I saw a wing come down."

Mr Jones, who rents a farm house in Opiki, northwest of Shannon, said the accident happened around 10am.

"All the fire service is out there. . . there are police cars in all directions and an ambulance."

Mr Jones, retired, said he only saw one plane go down.

"The plane is just lying there in a field."

The planes crashed on the Opiki farm of Rodney Hudson.

Mr Hudson said the planes were both from the Massey Aviation flight training school in Palmerston North.

The farm had been cordoned off and emergency services were on the scene, he said.

Opiki resident Rachel Taylor said she heard a "big bang" and ran out of her home to see what appeared to be tinfoil falling out of the sky.

Mrs Taylor said her home – where she and her husband are dairy farmers – was only two paddocks away from the crash site but the site was obscured by trees.

"By the time I walked outside there were already lots of tractors and motorbikes at the site and I was really amazed at how quickly all the services got there."

Mrs Taylor said she even though she was looking at the wreckage she had no idea what it was.

"It doesn't even look like a plane."

Mrs Taylor said it was not until her husband, Wayne, called her that she knew that it had been a plane crash.

"He was working on the other side of the crash site and he called to make sure I wasn't hurt or that it hadn't hit our property."

Mrs Taylor said the wreckage site was a "total mess on the ground".

The two Massey University pilots killed were believed to have been training for their commercial licenses, Civil Aviation Authority spokesman Bill Sommer said.

The New Zealand Rescue Co-ordination Centre was alerted to the crash about 10am after a report of wreckage on the ground north of Shannon.

Mr Sommer said no-one else was believed to be on either plane.

Ken Mitchell, a communications manager for Airways New Zealand, which is responsible for air traffic in controlled airspaces, said the planes were in an uncontrolled space, where pilots took responsibility for their own navigation and safety.

Mr Sommer said the Accident Investigation Commission or Civil Aviation Authority would now be investigating.

Authorities have closed the air space over the crash sites, and police are restricting ground travel in the area.

Massey University's School of Aviation started in 1990, and in 1998 expanded to Auckland.

In 2003, consultants recommended consolidating the operation on the Palmerston North campus and the Flight Systems Centre at Palmerston North Airport.

At that time its target was to graduate 40 new airline pilots a year, along with graduates in associated aviation professional fields.

A local farmer, who lives around 700m from the crash site, said he rushed to the crash site of one of the planes and saw a body in the mangled wreckage.

"The pilot in the first plane was dead. We didn't actually realise there was a second plane until a neighbour came over and said there was another plane," said the man, who didn't want to be named.

He then went to the site of the second crashed plane about 300m away.

"That plane looked like it had nosed into a drain and it was upside-down," he said.

"One of the farmers tried to climb in through the tail of the second plane to get a pulse (from the pilot) but I don't think he could actually get to him," he said.

He said both planes were mangled and there was a strong smell of fuel.

The man said two builders who were working outside on his house heard the plane go down and raised the alarm.

"I ran outside and saw the last flakes of the plane coming down," he said.

He then rang the police and went to the crash sites.

"I think the wing fell off the first one," he said.

The man said another plane was in the area spraying potatoes around the time of the crash, as well as a helicopter.

"There were a lot of aircraft in a small area and things got a bit haywire," he said.

"I think the two planes [which crashed] were practising emergency landings. . . you know when they cut the engines," he said.

[Sqwark2000]

Trainee pilots killed in mid-air collision
09 February 2006

Two trainee pilots from Massey University's School of Aviation were killed in a mid-air collision near Shannon in the Manawatu this morning.


Two single-engine Piper Cherokee training planes from the school collided over Opiki, 18km southwest of Palmerston North, about 10am before crashing on to farm land about 100 metres apart.

Debris was scattered over a 500 square-metre area, with one wrecked plane coming down in a paddock and the second in a drain.

Police late this afternoon released the names of the pilots.

They were Brandon Gedge, 20, of Tauranga and Jong Ho Hwang, 27, of Waitakere, Auckland.

Both students were in the same intake at the aviation school.

Head of Palmerston North-based school Captain Ashok Poduval expressed his sorrow about the accident.

He said the school was offering trauma counselling to staff and students impacted by the accident.

The university would work with the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) to establish the cause of the collision, he said.

Capt Poduval said he would be contacting the families of the dead students to offer the university's support.

Opiki resident Brian Jones was pruning fruit in his garden when he heard a huge bang.

A plane did a "whirly-down" to the ground followed by a wing crashing down, the retired 75-year-old said.

"All the fire service is out there. . .there are police cars in all directions and an ambulance."

Mr Jones said he only saw one plane go down.

"The plane is just lying there in a field."

The Square Trust Rescue Helicopter was in the area on another job when the accident occurred.

The helicopter with pilot and medical personnel onboard arrived at the scene within a couple of minutes.

The crew was able to ascertain that both pilots of the crashed aircraft were dead.

The planes crashed on the Opiki farm of Rodney Hudson, which was cordoned off by police.

Another Opiki resident Rachel Taylor said she heard a "big bang" and ran out of her home to see what appeared to be tinfoil falling out of the sky.

Mrs Taylor said her home – where she and her husband are dairy farmers – was only two paddocks away from the crash site but the site was obscured by trees.

"By the time I walked outside there were already lots of tractors and motorbikes at the site and I was really amazed at how quickly all the services got there."

Mrs Taylor said she even though she was looking at the wreckage she had no idea what it was.

"It doesn't even look like a plane."

Mrs Taylor said it was not until her husband, Wayne, called her that she knew that it had been a plane crash.

"He was working on the other side of the crash site and he called to make sure I wasn't hurt or that it hadn't hit our property."

Mrs Taylor said the wreckage site was a "total mess on the ground".

Another local farmer, who lives around 700m from the crash site, said he rushed to the crash site of one of the planes and saw a body in the mangled wreckage.

"The pilot in the first plane was dead. We didn't actually realise there was a second plane until a neighbour came over and said there was another plane," the man, who didn't want to be named, told police.

He then went to the site of the second crashed plane about 300m away.

"That plane looked like it had nosed into a drain and it was upside-down," he said.

"One of the farmers tried to climb in through the tail of the second plane to get a pulse (from the pilot) but I don't think he could actually get to him," he said.

He said both planes were mangled and there was a strong smell of fuel.

The man said two builders who were working outside on his house heard the plane go down and raised the alarm.

"I ran outside and saw the last flakes of the plane coming down," he said.

He then rang the police and went to the crash sites.

"I think the wing fell off the first one," he said.

The man said a helicopter and another plane was in the area spraying potatoes around the time of the crash.

"There were a lot of aircraft in a small area and things got a bit haywire," he said.

"I think the two planes (which crashed) were practising emergency landings. . .you know when they cut the engines," he said.

The New Zealand Rescue Co-ordination Centre was alerted to the crash about 10am after a report of wreckage on the ground north of Shannon.

Ken Mitchell, a communications manager for Airways New Zealand, which is responsible for air traffic in controlled airspaces, said the planes were in an uncontrolled space, where pilots took responsibility for their own navigation and safety.

CAA spokesman Bill Sommer said the Accident Investigation Commission or CAA would now be investigating.

Authorities closed the air space over the crash sites, and police restricted ground travel in the area immediately after the crash.

Massey University's School of Aviation started in 1990, and in 1998 expanded to Auckland.

In 2003, consultants recommended consolidating the operation on the Palmerston North campus and the Flight Systems Centre at Palmerston North Airport.

At that time its target was to graduate 40 new airline pilots a year, along with graduates in associated aviation professional fields.



S2K

[Sunfish]

Condolences to the families.

[theflyer1735]

My Condolences to all of those close to these 2 pilots, Our thoughts are with you all.

[glekichi]

RIP guys.
Hits home more than usual being at almost exactly the same phase of training.

[deadhead]

Let us spare a thought for the troops at Massey, and of course for the families of the two students lost.

:sad:
:sad:
:sad:

And at last, a witness who said something highly likely to be fact: that the aircraft were practising “emergency” landings. The School’s aircraft operate regularly around there, doing just that. He’d have seen it many times.

Back in 1992 I told a certain meeting that that area was getting like Grand Central Station at times, with aircraft competing for training space in an area hemmed in by military airspace on one side, civilian controlled airspace on another (and above), ranges on yet another, and the sea. I said the risk of mid air will be decreased if the military airspace could be pushed a couple of miles to the north. But the knuckleheads wailed: :{ we can’t do that, it’s hard enough for A4s and Strikemasters as it is (bullshlt! I thought, or in this case Bulls’ shlt). Those turkeys always hijacked those meetings, which shall remain nameless.

Perversely, some of those turkeys became good friends of mine in the years that followed, and the lack of any accidents or reported incidents allowed the memory of that meeting, and the angst that went with it, to fade into the shadows.

Yes, I know there is another area to the north that can be used, but that has its drawbacks, too, as any local will tell you. The Air Farce’s Airtrainers now occupy all the best real estate, only a few miles to the west. They could quite easily operate in an area half the size, now that the knucks have gone.

Yes, I know too, that timely airspace reform may not have prevented this accident, but it would have mitigated the risk. There is no doubt about that.

And for all you “the pilots could have done this, they should have done that” morons, haven’t you learnt that you can not EVER SOLELY rely on a pilot’s situational awareness to avoid a midair? See and be seen, what absolute cr@p. I’ve probably just offended half the D&G readership with that, at least the pre-pubescent ones, anyway. How dare me.:*

This was an “aviation system” accident, pure and simple. But at least I already know what the accident report will say. And it won’t be anything helpful to pilots, either.

Am I bitter? Have I got baggage? You bet your @rse. I might not be in GA anymore, but I still care enough about it to say these things.

dh

[Thermal Image]

In San Diego also:

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/13824218.htm

Posted on Thu, Feb. 09, 2006



Three killed when two small planes collide in San Diego County

ELLIOT SPAGAT
Associated Press

EL CAJON, Calif. - Federal investigators were working Thursday to determine what caused two small planes to collide mid-flight over this east San Diego suburb, killing three people on board and leaving wreckage strewn over a wide area.

The collision occurred about 4:40 p.m. Wednesday, said city spokeswoman Monica Zech. Fire officials said no one was injured on the ground.

Two people were aboard a plane that came crashing down in a park, El Cajon Fire Chief Mike Scott said. The other person killed was aboard a plane that landed in a home, igniting a small attic fire that was quickly extinguished. No one was inside the home, Scott said.

Bryce Segaux, an 18-year-old senior at Grossmont High School, was working in the school's auto shop when he saw a small plane sputter, lose altitude and crash into another aircraft.

"There was a big old fireball," Segaux said.

Driving to nearby Harry Griffen Park in La Mesa, Segaux said he saw two bodies among the wreckage.

Chris Rohan, 29, of El Cajon was walking his dog at the park when he heard a loud explosion. Rohan said he looked up and saw three or four pieces of flaming debris falling from the sky. A wing landed about a foot away from his car, he said.

"Everyone was panicking," Rohan said.

Authorities closed the park after the crash and cordoned off the scene. Investigators also restricted the area around the home where the second plane crashed. Several nearby residents were evacuated.

The National Transportation Safety Board was handling the investigation.

It was not immediately known where the planes originated or where they were headed.







http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20060208-1707-midair4.html


3 die as two planes collide in fireballs over El Cajon


SIGNONSANDIEGO

9:51 p.m. February 8, 2006

EL CAJON – Three people died when two small planes collided in fireballs Wednesday in the sky near Grossmont High School in El Cajon, authorities and witnesses said.
Witnesses reported seeing two bodies on the ground, believed to be from one of the aircraft. A third body was reported elsewhere, believed from the other.

Authorities confirmed three dead in the collision around 4:40 p.m., and said no injuries on the ground were reported.

“I happened to look up and saw two balls of fire,” said Rod Jeter, a real estate broker who was driving nearby at the time of the collision.

Part of a burning wing fell onto the roof and then into the front yard of a house in the 600 block of Hawthorne Avenue, igniting the roof and attic, said El Cajon Fire Chief Mike Scott. The house was unoccupied, and firefighters extinguished the flames.

Much of the debris fell along Hawthorne and Live Oak Drive, Scott said. The bulk of one of the aircraft fell, burning, into Harry Griffen Park in bordering La Mesa, where firefighters quickly extinguished the flames, he said.

A piece of wreckage that appeared to be part of a fuselage came to rest in the back yard of a home on Live Oak.

Other debris from the incident appeared scattered over a half-mile-square area of El Cajon and La Mesa, 1½ miles south of Gillespie Field, a general aviation airport. Authorities asked anyone who found pieces of wreckage to leave them in place and telephone (619) 579-3311.

Many witnesses initially reported the collision to be between a small plane and a helicopter. One knowledgeable witness even identified the aircraft specifically as a Robinson R22, a small helicopter commonly used for flight training and photography.

But authorities later said the collision involved two Cessna fixed-wing aircraft.

Investigators from the Federal Aviation Administration and the National Transportation Safety Board were on the scene investigating Wednesday night, with La Mesa firefighters lighting one of the debris fields at Harry Griffen Park.

Joe Delacruz was in the back yard of a friend's house on Hawthorne when the sound of a plane “popping, backfiring,” caused them to turn around and look up.

“It sounded like the plane was sputtering, like it was having a hard time flying,” Delacruz said.

The two then witnessed the collision.

“I looked up and I saw the wing and the bulk of the aircraft coming down in flames,” Delacruz said.

He said he also saw what appeared to be the bubble portion of a helicopter cockpit falling from the sky.

Jeter, who had been driving on state Route 125, said although he saw the fireballs, he saw no explosion. “First I thought maybe it was somebody's (toy) rocket, but then I said that's too big to be somebody's (toy),” Jeter said.

“That's it, they both fell. The bigger one, I think, was the helicopter. They were already on fire before they hit (the ground). I've never seen anything like that before.”

Palm Springs resident Gary Embrey was driving on state Route 125 when the accident occurred.

“I was just looking ahead and saw a big black plume of smoke, (and) flame and parts spewing out to the side,” he said. “Then it all fell to the ground. It was parts just falling.”

Another witness, a Grossmont High student, told reporters he watched part of an aircraft – which he took to be a helicopter – hit the ground, saw someone inside the wreckage and realized that person could not have survived.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

SignOnSanDiego's Jeffrey J. Rose, Steve Perez, Alan Drooz and Zachary Woodruff contributed to this story, and wire service reports were used in compiling it.

[MOR]

(referring to Deadheads post which is now further up)

Not so much a chip, as an entire forest. How does your shoulder cope...

[Mr Proachpoint]

It is a real shame to hear about this. The Police and traffic spotter collision doesn't seem that far away again. Any questions we may have as to why this happened should be quickly answered by the returns from the ATC tapes that they keep for this reason.

MAPt

[Turangi Vice]

I dont think they will get much from the ATC tapes as the crash happened in uncontrolled airspace. Both were from the same intake at Massy. I hope they were not playing silly buggers. A sad blow for Massy and the industry.
Prayers to family and friends.

[steinycans]

(ref to deadhead; as above)
Ok then, how do the stacks of AR guys simulating into pokeno or mercer not smack into each other?

[MOR]

Simple. They do the following:

1) make sure they are in different areas
2) look out the window

Two aircraft doing FLWOPs in the same area is just asking for it.

It does bring to mind the last time this happened around Palmy... two clowns pretending to be combat pilots. Hopefully this one will turn out to be just a tragic accident.

[Semi Rigid]

MASSEY Aviation.Advice. Get a PR/Media consultant.

Those 2 aircraft were not out practising Stalling. They were orbiting a well known Manawatu Ag pilot going about his daily chore.FACT.

[ViagraDependent]

NZ Hearald
10.02.06
By Mathew Dearnaley

One of two light aircraft which collided over Manawatu yesterday, killing both their pilots, had a close call with a rescue helicopter minutes earlier.

The two young male flyers, both mid-term students of Massey University's School of Aviation, were found dead in their cockpits after their single-engine Piper Cherokee training craft crashed into paddocks near Shannon, southwest of Palmerston North, about 10am.

The men killed were Brandon James Gedge, 20, from Tauranga, and Dae Jin Hwang, 27, from West Auckland.

Farmers who watched the tragedy unfold said the aircraft had been flying overhead for up to 15 minutes, conducting stalling manoeuvres before the wing of one of the Cherokees clipped the tail of the other.

Rodney Hudson, into whose dairy farm the planes plummeted off Ngui Rd north of Shannon, said he saw the southbound rescue helicopter climb and turn to avoid a collision with one of the aircraft several minutes before the crash.

The two training planes were flying "reasonably close together for a period of time".

The pilot of a topdressing aircraft also in the area described on television seeing the wreckage on the ground and then looking up to see debris floating to the ground like "confetti" out of a clear blue sky.

A spokesman for the Palmerston North-based Square Trust rescue helicopter confirmed to the Herald last night that it was forced to take evasive action after a northbound Cherokee turned into its path.

What ensued minutes later was New Zealand's first fatal mid-air collision since the police Eagle helicopter and a fixed-wing traffic-spotting aircraft collided over Auckland's central motorway junction in 1993, killing four people.

It is not the first time tragedy has struck the Massey aviation school, which lost a student in an air crash in the Ureweras during a navigational exercise in 1995.

Wreckage of his aircraft, which was supposed to have been flying between Gisborne and Palmerston North, was not found for several years.

Civil Aviation Authority spokesman Bill Sommer, whose agency is investigating the latest accident, said it was "obviously a high-impact crash - it was not a little nudge".

The aircraft appeared from their transponders to have collided at right angles, one while climbing on a northbound path and the other descending to the east.

He said it was possible that the pilots, both bachelor of aviation students with more than 100 flying hours under their belts, might not have seen what was in store for them.

"It's like when you are driving, you are not looking sideways," he said.

He also confirmed that the aviation authority had received a report that the rescue helicopter and a fixed-wing aircraft passed "quite close" to each other soon before the crash.

The rescue trust spokesman said the light plane made a left turn, putting it on "a conflicting path" with the helicopter, which was on a medical flight from Palmerston North to Wellington. The helicopter was forced to turn right and climb away.

It then doubled back to the area after being notified of the crash, but the pilot and a nurse on board found both students dead in their aircraft, one of which crashed upside-down into a farm drain and the other into a paddock about 200m away.

The fuselages were largely intact, but other parts were sprawled across about 500m of farmland.

Mr Sommer said it appeared the planes collided 1500ft or so above sea level, which was "not unnaturally low", but Mr Hudson said he had flying experience and they seemed to him to be no higher than 1000ft.

The 15-year-old Massey aviation school has about 460 students, all based in Palmerston North, having discontinued operations in Auckland a year ago.

General manager Captain Ashok Poduval, a veteran airline pilot and former operations and safety director for the International Air Transport Association, said he was confident of the abilities of the dead pair and their readiness for the exercises set for them yesterday.

Captain Poduval, who was appointed last year to head the school and expressed sorrow over the crash, said the pair were good students and there had been no reports of their behaving abnormally.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does this mean that all GA aircraft are going to require a TCAS installed in the near future?

[Cloud Cutter]

MOR

Not quite the case over Pokeno. Quite routine to have several aircraft operating into the same group of paddocks. In fact, I've often thought the Ardmore training area is an accident waiting to happen, particularly with such a high concentration of aircraft operating around the Pokeno paddocks.

[whiteknuckleairlines]

Cloud cutter...I agree with you that AR is most definitely an accident waiting to happen. When I was instructing there I would try and conduct as much training as possible over the Firth of Thames. Sure, I was risking it being over water but after a number of scares in the AR training area it was the best of a bad situation.

Viagra, as for a TCAS on GA machines. Having used one on a light a/c it would be constantly going off in areas such as around Ardmore and it would be a waste of money.......

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Cloud Cutter is correct, and I think the phrase 'accident waiting to happen' is very apt for Pokeno. I came very close to hitting another aircraft there, PFLing into the same paddock as me. It is all very well saying people look out - the majority of aircraft around Pokeno are in the hands of extremely low hour pilots, and very often solo. I'll admit now that at the time I was flying into Pokeno with bugger all hours my lookout was woefull, and I think it's fair to say that it is luck that has prevented, and continues to prevent, a serious incident near AR, nothing more and nothing less.

Condolences to those affected by the accident - rest in peace guys.

[ViagraDependent]

Whiteknuckle,
I totally agree with what you are saying.

The point I was trying to make is that, after the Seneca accidents at Mt Egmont and Taupo and the Chieftan accident at Christchurch last year, the Transport Accident Investigation Commission recommended the "installation of TAWS/EGPWS into all aircraft capable of being flown IFR by a single pilot".

I was just wondering if they are going to suggest installing TCAS into all aircraft that are capable of being flown in the vicinity of other aircraft i.e. all aircraft including those in GA.

[indigo duck]

Having operated in the "Southern Palmerston North Training Area" for many years, I know it can become very congested at certain times.
The airspace is uncontrolled and is bordered by mountainous terrain on the eastern side, Palmerston Control Zone and Ohakea Control (military airspace) on the northern side and Ohakea/Christchurch Control (radar environment) above about 3500ft.
Because the airspace is uncontrolled (i.e not a designated training area like Ardmore has), it has VFR transit aircraft, IFR aircraft on visual approaches into PM as well. It is a wonder (call it whatever you want) that there have not been more.

Semi-Rigid
MASSEY Aviation.Advice. Get a PR/Media consultant.
Those 2 aircraft were not out practising Stalling. They were orbiting a well known Manawatu Ag pilot going about his daily chore.FACT.
I had not realised that you were there watching the accident and had become an instant expert - perhaps you should call the accident investigators, and discuss this with the families of the deceased, I'm sure they would love your uninformed FACT!!!.
For the sake of the families, who would be going through an extremely traumatic time at the moment, is it too much to ask not to become an instant expert - especially when you obviously show how little intelligence you do have by making such wild statements.

My condolences to the parents of the pilots and to all the staff at Massey who would be going through a traumatic time at the moment.

[edited for spelling mistakes]

[Hanz Blix]

I dear say the radar plots will show exactly what happened here!

[MOR]

Cloud Cutter and others

I hear what you are saying about crowded training areas, however that is really no excuse.

Safety should never be about "shades of grey", a practice is either as safe as it can be, or it isn't. Not sure what happens these days, but when I was instructing around Wellington and Paraparaumu, the rule used to be only one aircraft in the LFA at a time, and all other aircraft in the area co-ordinated their activities by radio, usually via CHC info. Not sure how you do a FLWOP properly without entering the LFA.

If you have a bunch of aircraft all performing training manouevers in a small space, you have a dangerous situation and it needs to be controlled either by rule, or by common sense. The common sense approach would be "don't go there" if more than, say, two other aircraft are in there.

Of course old-timers would say that we always got by just fine by performing proper lookouts and monitoring the radio.

Personally I think training areas should be re-instated, but of course that will never happen whilst we have a CAA with no commitment to safety.

[whiteknuckleairlines]

MOR, I understand what you are saying and agree with you to some degree. However, relying on another's common sense is a recipe for disaster.....there are some very foolish people out there (I am not suggesting for one minute this is the case for Massey until an investigation is done!).

The LFA arrangement is pretty much the same these days but relies on the professionalism of the operators to communicate what they are doing.

Take Ardmore for example, the training area has been progressively squeezed smaller and smaller. I understand that the Drury gliding field has been there for a long while but I have no idea how there hasn't been a mishap there. Mercer was allowed to develop a parachute drop zone, effectively cutting a huge portion of the training area out. There are now so many a/c competing for real estate in the sky that it can become very difficult to complete an manouver.

I have previously done a lot of night ops over Auckland and couldn't believe some operators who allowed the students to fly out one after another, sometimes 5 in a line.

I certainly hope that some preventative policies are put in place by training organisations to try and minimise any conflict in the sky.

See and be seen can sometimes not work.......with tragic results.

[6080ft]

TCAS in light aircraft - particulary training aircraft, would just be a pain in the ass. I have flown a light aircraft with this technology in the AR training area and it just went nuts all the time - to the point I turned it off.

[gsf]

Semi-Rigid: The CAA spokesman on the news stated the radar tapes showed one aircraft, having previously descended to about 600ft, was climbing through 1500ft.
The other aircraft was in descent from a higher altitude.
The two aircraft were flying on courses at about 90 degrees to each other when the collision occured.

Do you still think your statement is the correct one ?

[Oktas8]

MOR,

You are suggesting that two aircraft should not be doing PFL's into the same area at the same time - quite true I think. But perhaps the pilots didn't know the other was there, particularly if one had finished his exercise and the other had only just started. BTW I'm not sure that this accident has anything to do with LFZ's (formerly LFA's, formerly formerly LFZ's, formerly formerly formerly goodness knows what).

So what are the "training areas" that used to exist? I'm not familiar with anything other than GAA's. And, how would the training area administration work to prevent collisions between two training school craft?

O8

[steinycans]

They used to have danger areas with a little symbol of an aeroplane to denote the danger was from training aeroplanes. The charts from last year had em but the new ones dont.
Anyhow, without wanting to preempt the outcome of a report, perhaps its time to put in place an RTF procedure for aeroplanes on forced landing practise maybe as part of training airspace becoming special procedures airspace in more congested areas.

[Cloud Cutter]

MOR

Just to clarify, most of the time, at most places Forced Landings are NOT done in a LFZ. Particularly not the Ardmore LFZ where your choices of field include the sea or the beach. PFLs are normally done in non LFZ airspace down to 500'.

Unfortunately at Ardmore, not operating in an area because there are already a couple of aircraft there is not a viable option. It is routine to see more than 5 aircraft doing PFLs into a 50 acre area of farmland.

I'm not sure what procedures are in place these days, but during the time I was using the area, we broadcast on the Mercer traffic frequency and this seemed to work well. Toward the end of my training, the chaps over at Mercer said they didn't want these broadcasts to be made on their frequency. This means pilots using the Pokeno paddocks are either not broadcasting, or using company base frequencies - both of which are unsafe. Can someone more current please elaborate on this.

There needs to be some solid procedures set in place for operations in busy GA areas, and in particular areas used for forced landing practice as this is the most vulnerable routine training situation, even more so than low flying ops.

[steinycans]

The only broadcasts made by training flights are the fact they are in the area, a common example is: "XYZ, Is pokeno paddocks 3000 in the area 20 minutes" except if the simulation is done at mercer in which case d/w and final calls are made.

[haughtney1]

Personally I've always thought it was a matter of time in the ardmore training area...10yrs ago doing my CPL it was bloody scary:uhoh:

Now thats its happened in near Palmy I guess you have to think its one of those things that is always gonna happen sometime.

MOR did the info help mate?

just my thoughts

H:ok:

[MOR]

Oktas8

Back in the dim distant past, there used to be promulgated training areas with specific boundaries, that could only be entered by aircraft engaged in flight training. The idea was to protect the training aircraft from collision with ag aircraft, scheduled flights, etc. They were permanently active. The Wellington one used to stretch from Wainuiomata in the north to Turakarae Head in the south. As I understand it, these areas are gone now, replaced (in some places) by GAA, which as far as I can tell are not protected areas.
They were managed by the appropriate info unit, who would advise how many aircraft were in the area and where they were. Often the CHC Info guy would just say "all aircraft in the Wellington training area, talk to each other" and we would pass info as to where we were and what we were doing. The other form of management was the club ensuring that when a pilot went to the training area, he was aware of the the other club aircraft operating there. We had a rule that they would not operate in the same area, ie one would go north, the other south, and so on. It was a big area.
In the accident that is the subject of this thread, the Training Area woulf have prevented the near-collision with the helo (as the helo wouldn't have been there), and any potential ag activity.

Cloud Cutter

Personally I can't see any point at all in doing FLWOP/PFLs down to 500', it is that last 500' that determines the outcome of the exercise. We always used to go down to 50' or so, by then you know whether you are going to get in or not. For that to happen, we had to enter the LFA or whatever it is now. Some instructors used to get their students to actually do a touch and go into the paddock, but I never liked that much - too many risks in an unknown paddock.
Unfortunately at Ardmore, not operating in an area because there are already a couple of aircraft there is not a viable option. It is routine to see more than 5 aircraft doing PFLs into a 50 acre area of farmland.
Sadly, that illustrates my point precisely. What those schools are saying, in effect, is that they know they are operating in an unsafe manner, and they are prepared to accept it in order to complete the training. What they SHOULD be doing is putting safety first and either not filling a 50 acre area with aircraft, or go down to Lower Hutt and sit on the CAA's doorstep until they designate some more airspace.
Operating safely does not involve shrugging your shoulders and saying "Oh well, that's the way it is, we'll carry on until aluminium confetti occurs". It involves a conscious, deliberate decision to never compromise high operating standards. Sadly, it seems that NZ GA doesn't understand this, hence the high number of completely preventable accidents that occur.
A lot of the blame must be laid at the door of the CAA, who do little to help the situation.

haughtney1

Your experience sounds familiar... flight training should not be something you feel fortunate to survive.
Regarding the info, thanks a lot for that, they don't seem to like answering emails so I'll call next week.

[gsf]

So much talk about PFL's prompts me to ask, does anyone know how many aeroclub aircraft in the last, say 5 or 10 years, have had to do one for real ?

[prospector]

"At this stage, probably no one, but no one, knows exactly why this accident happened."

And even the accident investigators will be able to do no better. They will have access to information that is not available to the general public, but all they can do is come up with educated guesses.

Prospector

[What time is ECT?]

This accident will not be easy to cope with for anyone remotely involved in their training or flying. I suspect that their flying instructors will be having some sleepless nights. On behalf of Airline Flying Club at Ardmore, I offer our condolences to all the people affected by Thursdays events.

In regards to practicing forced landings, they are a necessary manoever - to be tempered with safety in the practice of them. They do happen, and I would hope that every pilot was competent at performing a successful one for-real.

The Ardmore training area has become more regulated recently with the Mercer area special procedures area having 10 min reporting intervels. If you want to have your own radar screen in the cockpit, then get yourself a mobile-internet-capable laptop and run Flight Explorer on it. The danger here is head-in-cockpit syndrome.

Flight safety is everybody's responsibility - let's learn from others mistakes. We won't live long enough to make them all ourselves.

R.I.P.
ect?

Edited for clarity, and to protect the guilty.

[MOR]

One point that few seem to have picked up on is the value of TCAS. Even if you inhibit the RAs, you still have position information available in three axes, and if you run the TCAS on the 5 mile scale, you won't get swamped with targets. It should be mandatory.

WITCH

Do please attempt to get over yourself. The report is going to say (obviously) that two apparently serviceable aircraft collided due to a failure to see and avoid each other, something they are required to do in that airspace. The rest of the report will be contributing factors, toxicological examinations, and so on. It is the contributing factors that will be the most interesting.

And you got the emphasis wrong in your explanation of the forum title. It is the Professional Pilots Rumour network. In fact, it stopped being for professional pilots some years ago...:{

[whiteknuckleairlines]

WITCH.....

With all due respect...I think that PPRUNE is performing it's function nicely.

People have the ability to discuss events and perhaps learn from them.

Sharing everyone's opinions (rightly or not) allows a point to be discussed. This thread in particular (apart from one or two) has diverged from the actual incident and the discussion has been about how easily it could happen in other areas. Unfortunately, accident reports seem to take a very long time to be released that people are no longer interested in the event.

I think we should discuss this and perhaps hear what people have to say so that we can learn.

You talk about professionalism, I think that discussing incidents and hearing other points of view is professionalism personified.

Sure, I agree that one or two posts have people saying that it was definitely this or that which caused the crash but on the whole people have been discussing a general problem. I for one don't see the use in burying ones head in the sand and not discussing problems and airing a viewpoint as beneficial to safety at all.

[Fragnasty]

Yes, I know there is another area to the north that can be used, but that has its drawbacks, too, as any local will tell you. The Air Farce’s Airtrainers now occupy all the best real estate, only a few miles to the west. They could quite easily operate in an area half the size, now that the knucks have gone.



The knucks never shared that airspace with the airtrainers anyway DH, so their requirements haven't changed at all. Having flown in those skies as a military instructor (and as a knuck), what they have got is still not enough.

See and be seen works if you are diligent with your lookout, and use the radio to build your SA of what's going on around you. If you're out there practising forced landings in particular, you should have cleared the area you're going to descend into before you start - it is a practise after all.

If you're unsure of what's going on - speak up!!!

Choice 'bro!

[indigo duck]

Palmerston North is unique, unlike Ardmore's uniqueness (even though comparisons can, and are being made).
Ardmore has a designated training area now called a GAA with defined lateral and upper limits and a relatively similar mix of aircraft - IFR aircraft are vectored around the airspace. It may take an extra 15mins of flying time to find a patch of clear airspace in the training area, but it can be found.
Palmerston North has no designated training area, although (as DeadHead has pointed out) there is a GAA area to the north which can only be activated with approval of Ohakea. There is a mix of IFR, VFR and military aircraft (don't forget the gliders at Feilding) - all at differing speeds, 3 airfield within a 10nm radius of Palmerston - combined with a differing level of experience and understanding of the English language (Massey often has foreign students flying solo, whose first language is not english).
Fragnasty
See and be seen works if you are diligent with your lookout, and use the radio to build your SA of what's going on around you. If you're out there practising forced landings in particular, you should have cleared the area you're going to descend into before you start - it is a practise after all.
Speaking up is all very well, provided the pilots have the level of experience to understand what is being said and, if you have 5-10 aircraft in the same area all chatting away, how much info is too much and ends up getting ignored?
Palmerston is also restricted by the weather, prevailling westerlies often prevent the use of the area to the east of the Manawatu Gorge due to turbulence and low cloud.
The area that is available for training is small in comparison to Ardmore, so maintaining an effective lookout and good SA is essential. We all know from our years as trainee pilots how difficult it is to maintain good SA, while practising solo manoeuvres such as stalling and PFLWOP. How easy is it for a low hour pilot to judge closing speed and distance?
MOR
Personally I can't see any point at all in doing FLWOP/PFLs down to 500', it is that last 500' that determines the outcome of the exercise. We always used to go down to 50' or so, by then you know whether you are going to get in or not.
I was not aware the the legal lower limit had been reduced, and advocating that student pilots follow the same practice is unbelievable and bordering on the dangerous.
All this discussion lead into others questions, as it was mentioned that the aircraft were at 90 degrees to each other. Is the Cherokee a suitable aircraft for training and ...
What procedure should be used when climbing out after forced landing practice - climb straight ahead, or climbing turn to remain over the field until at a suitable altitude?

[Oktas8]

MOR - ta for the info about "how stuff used to be done". It sounds like you had a good system running back then.

Operating safely does not involve shrugging your shoulders and saying "Oh well, that's the way it is, we'll carry on until aluminium confetti occurs". It involves a conscious, deliberate decision to never compromise high operating standards. Sadly, it seems that NZ GA doesn't understand this, hence the high number of completely preventable accidents that occur.
Yes, that's true. But how can instructors improve matters if there is no-one around with more than five years' experience instructing?

indigo duck
Take a deep breath there mate - MOR wasn't suggesting going down to 50' outside an LFZ. And within an LFZ, his suggestion is quite legal. Whether it is necessary or indeed safe is arguable of course... :}

I haven't stuck my neck out in ages (like 24 hours at least) so here's a suggestion: The primary objective of a FLWOP pattern is not to "see if you'll make it in", but to develop skills and judgement (as opposed to random feelings) to adjust the flightpath as required by circumstances. There is no requirement to descend below 500' to know whether you would make it in, as your judgement, or lack of, is quite obvious before that.

Now ducking for cover. All yours MOR... :ok:

Perhaps we should start an instructing techniques thread - that would be a useful outcome from the tragic event we're discussing.

[MOR]

Oktas8

Thank you, you seem to have understood what Indigo Duck didn't!

Regarding standards, it is not so much the instructors as their supervisors, ie chief instructors. If you insist on high standards amongst your instructors, and then check them from time to time to make sure no bad habits are creeping in, you should be able to prevent a lot of the bad stuff. If the CAA carried out audits worthy of the name, it would help. In addition, the CAA should be vigorously vetting chief instructors in training organisations, and ensuring that all chief pilots have adequate experience.

As far as forced landing practise is concerned, I don't agree that you know whether the outcome will be successful from 500 feet. If you cast your eye over the many accident reports dealing with landing accidents over, say, the last ten years, you will see that the vast majority start going wrong in the last 100 feet or so, where windshear, turbulence, visual illusions etc really start to bite. We started taking our guys to 50 feet after a couple of actual forced landings resulted in destroyed aircraft. We found that virtually all of them could get to 500' in approximately the right place, but only about 30% were still in the right place at 50'. Practising to 500' tells you very little about the competence of the student to get it on the ground in one piece. When I did my PPL, the FTO insisted I went down to 50'. Times seem to have changed (along with a general drop in standards).

As far as being dangerous, it is no more dangerous than going to 500'. If you attempt to go around and the engine farts and dies, you are in for a forced landing in either circumstance. There is no way you should be attempting to recover a failed or sick engine from 500' - close the throttle and concentrate on the landing. Of course, if you are at 50' and in the right place, you have less time to stress out!

More to the point, clear the engine every 1000' or so and the problem shouldn't arise.

Anyway, it is a topic worthy of continued discussion...

[27/09]

Couldn't help comment on some statements here.

I don't see how Palmy airspace is that special/cramped or what ever when compared to Ardmore. They both have a high density of GA and other traffic (gliders and various mixes of aircraft types and nearby airfields) including lower hour pilots under training.

Broadcasting of position reports is all very well but I fear some people over do that part, just listen out on 119.1 sometime to hear some of the mindless broadcasts that go on. Some people talk too much and clutter up the frequency, which means one of two things happen, people tune out or turn the volume down. I wonder sometimes that some pilots think that by continually talking, others will see them thereby absolving them of having to keep a vigilant look out.

There is no substitute for keeping a good look out at all times.

The RNZAF have trained quite satisfactorily in the areas around Ohakea, they have methods they use to help ensure separation. Perhaps some of those methods could be used.


This comment really had me baffled

All this discussion lead into others questions, as it was mentioned that the aircraft were at 90 degrees to each other. Is the Cherokee a suitable aircraft for training and ...


A bit like saying, "Is any aircraft suitable for training".

[6080ft]

Cloud Cutter
The airspace surrounding Mercer has become an MBZ now. I remember not too long ago when the guys at mercer asked us not to make radio calls to their frequency - complete u turn in that situation.

MOR
I agree entirly with what yo are saying about the last 500 ft of a forced landing. Occasionally a student will turn into wind to land and just drop out of the sky. Yeah experienced instructors should be able to tell if the student would get in, but the average student has no idea!

Also there is a clause in part 91.311 that allows flight below 500ft with a bona fide purpose - mine is teaching safer aviation to my student on a forced landing! Also current testing officers doing cpls are pretty much always going well below 500ft. There is actually a CAA document out regarding the bonafide purpose clause - they got a few laywers to have a read of it and make an informed legal position re FLWOPS below 500ft. It pretty much says that the bonafide purpose is reason enough.

rgds
6080ft

[6080ft]

thanks to NIKE who has posted a copy of the CAA document I was referring to in my last post.
it hs here - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=210784

[MOR]

Exactly, and my further point would be that they often don't believe you unless you show them that they wouldn't have made it. I used to think I had it all sussed out, until my instructor made me continue below 500'... not a nice feeling as the fence starts to rise in the windshield and you realise that you are well short with no way of stretching the glide... certainly got the message home to me.

[indigo duck]

I think you may have missed my point. While it might detract from the original point of this thread .....
As instructors there is an obligation to set examples and display high standards of professionalism (Not saying that it isn't done). Having an instructor continually flying a forced landing to 50ft to prove (to a student) whether or not the aircraft can land in a field really only has impact value if it is done once or twice, any more than that the student may consider it accepted practice whilst flying solo as well.
In an LFZ is fine, as it is a "controlled environment" - by that I mean a limit on the number of aircraft in the LFZ at any one time, use of the radio for position reports and a dual flight (extra pair of eyes -always good for SA).
I always found it preferable to practice simulated forced landings below 500ft into airfields or airstrips (How many have practiced into Pukekohe East airstrip?) as it provides a reduced element of risk. (BTW weren't Ardmore Flying School practising FLWOP in the LFZ when it lost power on the go-round???)
Outside of these areas, there are few controls, restrictions and often many aircraft carrying out similar exercises in the same area. How many instructors use the same field for forced landing practice as it has identifiable features, and is easy for the student to pick up the procedure - student then uses same field to practice, develop and hone technique .....
Add that to the reduction in general experience of the flight instructors (due largely to the rapid and large employment over the last year or so) and the proverbial holes in the swiss cheese start to line up.
If the sort of accident that occurred in Palmerston is to be prevented from happening again (eg Ardmore training area), the procedures must be developed and implemented by the instructors that use the training areas - NOT BY CAA.
As for the comment 'Is a cherokee suitable for flight training' I was referring to the lack of visibility due to the low wing .... but point taken.
It is unfortunate that it takes a tragedy such as this to make us sit up and admit that there is a problem. Let's hope that we can all develop an answer that can prevent any more from happening.

[MOR]

Having an instructor continually flying a forced landing to 50ft to prove (to a student) whether or not the aircraft can land in a field really only has impact value if it is done once or twice, any more than that the student may consider it accepted practice whilst flying solo as well.

Just to clarify, the exercise was NEVER flown by the instructor - always the student - and there was never any doubt as to whether or not it was "accepted practice" for the student to do it solo, as they were specifically forbidden from doing so.

As far as practising into strips is concerned, it considerably devalues the exercise as the student quickly learns the proper cues for the strip being used - cues that are absent if they have to do it for real. Instructors who use the same field for FLWOP practise are really short-changing their students.

A lot of this is personal opinion I guess, I found it to be true when I was instructing, but teaching others to fly is a game that is constantly evolving.

As an aside, I agree that the overall experience levels of instructors is dropping. I thought it might be fun to do some instructing again, put all those thousands of hours of airline flying in Europe to some use. Not for money, not for the hours, just for fun. However, the CAA make it such a complex and expensive exercise that it probably isn't worth it. The local club seems equally reticent to offer any part-time work, it seems they value experience as little as the CAA does.

[Oktas8]

Shall we leave this thread to those who wish to discuss the recent accident?

For FLWOP discussion, see you all over here:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=210784

O8

[zzzzzzzzzzzzz]

MOR - I have never heard so much trash in my life. You talk complete drivel

[MOR]

Lol... I love the smell of morons in the morning... especially bee-shaped ones... :rolleyes:

[Tarq57]

MOR

Troll alert, but nice comeback. (But bees fly.This one don't)

Indigo duck, IMO the pa28 has excellent flight vis for training, sitting way up near the leading edge. I learned to fly in a 140. The only thing it didn't demo to well was spinning.

[Mr.Buzzy]

"put all those thousands of hours of airline flying in Europe to some use"

I'm sure the average beginner pilot would love to hear all about it too!

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[MOR]

Yeah I've seen this particular troll before. Always outs himself in the end. Must be the giant ego... :rolleyes:

I wonder if anybody will ever pay him to fly planes...

[tinpis]

Yer all a bunch of silly old nannas.

[zzzzzzzzzzzzz]

jesus - you just talk crap MOR

[MOR]

Surely you mean "nanas"... the bent yellow things? I resemble that remark... ;)

[Two Cocks]

gsf

There was a forced landing done by the Bay of Plenty Flight Centre a few years back. Straight into the sea just off Matakana island. Couldn't land on the beach as it was strewn with logs.

A back dated search helped me find it.

As the article stated, both pilots were unhurt.

[tinpis]

Is there no strip on the Island anymore?
Tin can remember someone lived out there and he had a Fox Moth.......



nah tin these kids way to young

[Hanz Blix]

Sorry TWO COCKS i don't see the relivance of your post, whats an accident 4-5 years ago got to do with the thread?

[MOR]

Hey I still have an old VFG with a Matakana plate in it... quite a few of those old strips are gone now though. Clarence was a favourite of mine...

[Two Cocks]

Hanz Blix

gsf was asking a question from a couple of pages ago and I answered him.

Do you have a problem with that?

[zzzzzzzzzzzzz]

shake my head....

[What time is ECT?]

zzzzzzzzzzzzz
For someone who joined THIS MONTH you talk a lot of rubbish.
Go and do something constructive.
Does mummy know you are on the internet?

ECT?

[Cloud Cutter]

Oh Kay Then...... Back to topic,

Overheard on 124.3 (Auckland Control) today someone requesting own sep through the training area. They then requested the training area frequency from the controller, to which he replied "..........Standby........"

After a short pause he asked a parachuting aircraft out of Mercer what the frequency was, 118.1 was the response (this is the Ardmore traffic frequency). Clearly 118.1 is not to be used except when operating in, entering, or exiting the Ardmore MBZ, and as 6080ft has stated, Mercer is also enclosed by its own MBZ. So what's the story? As I asked previously - Is there a discrete frequency used for comms in the training area? It seems to me, the answer is NO, and this is plain balmy! Particularly in the Pokeno paddocks area.

[zzzzzzzzzzzzz]

ECT - What exactly does my joining date have to do with my posts? Run along now and get a life.

[MOR]

He just joined to abuse me... well-known stirrer with a new username. He got banned last time we tangled. Just ignore him... Unless you have some bug spray, of course!