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Miraculix
6th Feb 2006, 10:56
In the danish news

http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Indland/2006/02/06/110655.htm

Says aircraft nosewheel slid off in low speed, slippery conditions, noone hurt, pax taken to terminal, will be investigated.

Airport closed UFN, as aircraft is blocking runway.

Miraculix
6th Feb 2006, 11:03
METAR ekah 061020z 21007kt 170v250 5000 -ra few003 bkn006 bkn028 01/01 q1017 99590219=

TAF-FC AMD ekah 061015z 061018 23012kt 5000 -rasn sct005 bkn015 becmg 1012 1200 radz bkn002 tempo 1218 4000 -ra br sct003 bkn008=

jewitts
6th Feb 2006, 12:58
http://images.bm4.metropol.dk/205/205972/205972_normal.jpg

Bearcat
6th Feb 2006, 13:30
Snow tam reads....Rwy...previous report repeated / Deposit ...Wet Snow / Extent....51%-100% / Depth ...2mm / Braking Action.....POOR

Looooong haul
6th Feb 2006, 13:58
I think MOL will charge the passengers for the extra bus trip to the terminal...:hmm:

On a serious note: glad nobody got hurt and look forward to see the full report develop on Pprune prior the official one. :\

Jambo Buana
6th Feb 2006, 14:03
If this wx is correct, the crew breached Ryanair SOPs. Min braking action is 0.26!

WHBM
6th Feb 2006, 14:22
If this is the 712 due at 09.55 on the morning of Monday 6 February (and it seems to be) the Ryanair website is stating that it Arrived On Time !

So doubtless it will be credited to their punctuality stats for the month.

HundredPercentPlease
6th Feb 2006, 14:28
STATEMENT

Flight FR712 from London Stansted landed normally in Aarhus at 09.41 (local) and came to a stop on the runway. As the aircraft was taxiing towards the terminal, the nose wheel slid from the snow covered runway onto the grass verge.

All Passengers were disembarked safely from the aircraft using the rear steps and were bussed to the main terminal. The aircraft suffered no damage and our engineers are on route to move the aircraft to the terminal building.

Passengers on the outbound (Aarhus – London flight) are being provided with assistance and will be re-accommodated on a flight later today from Aarhus.

Additional information

Aircraft Boeing 737-800
Passengers on board 105
Crew on board 6

jewitts
6th Feb 2006, 14:52
AAR website also indicates airport closed until at least 19.00. All flights in and out currently cancelled. The 10.20 FR713 to London is showing expected departure time of 22.50 (Which is the normal departure time for FR715)

cwatters
6th Feb 2006, 15:10
"slid from the snow covered runway onto the grass verge"

Did the leg fold or did it find a hole? See photo above.

BOAC
6th Feb 2006, 15:22
Unfortunately aircraft normally dig their own.

Magplug
6th Feb 2006, 15:53
If this wx is correct, the crew breached Ryanair SOPs. Min braking action is 0.26!

Surely the way their sector pay ramps up would not have influenced their judgement..... Would it?

VS1711
6th Feb 2006, 16:21
How fast were they taxying?

Faire d'income
6th Feb 2006, 16:30
Surely the way their sector pay ramps up would not have influenced their judgement..... Would it?

That's hardly reasonable comment in the absense of any evidence. Thankfully it happened at taxi speed and no one was hurt. I could speculate on a wide variety of subjects that may have caused this without even mentioning the company but it wouldn't be fair at this time.

Bodjit
6th Feb 2006, 16:36
Seen a few Ryans at my airport...taxi speed, landing speed and take off speed seem to be very similar from what i've seen

:D :D

Miraculix
6th Feb 2006, 16:42
After landing and during the 180 degree turn for backtracking, the nosewheel slid of the rwy edge. So both main wheels are on the runway and the nosewheel is of the pavement. There was no drama at all, according to pax, as the aircraft was at a very, very slow speed.

Just a sinking feeling I presume. :ugh:

loco motion
6th Feb 2006, 16:50
If it was too slippery to taxy you can bet that the landing roll was quite exciting! :eek: What do those red lights mean?

P-T-Gamekeeper
6th Feb 2006, 17:19
Whatever speed they were at, even if only 5 kts, was too fast for conditions to make that turn.

B/A Poor with 2mm snow suggests ice underneath, which is v.v.nasty!

P.S There but for the grace of god!! Will be interested to see the full facts when they emerge.

bacardi walla
6th Feb 2006, 17:29
Whatever speed they were at, even if only 5 kts, was too fast for conditions to make that turn.
B/A Poor with 2mm snow suggests ice underneath, which is v.v.nasty!
P.S There but for the grace of god!! Will be interested to see the full facts when they emerge.

FR and the full facts don't appear in the same sentence :eek: High speed and FR do though

Nick NOTOC
6th Feb 2006, 17:42
OK an unfortunuatly mishap by the looks of it, I don't think for now that there is any reason to get all worked up about this.
Unless off course Leo will give information in the typical Leo fashion, but I guess even he does not waste any time on this.
Bad luck for the passengers that were stranded today.

PitotTube
6th Feb 2006, 18:51
SASKATTOON .. no need to jump to conclusions! Let the investigation tell what happened instead of accusing beforehand that SOP's where breached. Calm down man! And the incident happend during turning on the runway after landing according to the AArhus airport website.

Best foot forward
6th Feb 2006, 18:57
Ah but, the metar may say BA poor but if the rwy was being swept then the crew may have been given a better value for the BA. In any account lets hope the IAA use the Reason model and look at the company culture as well as any crew actions that were involved in the incident.

terrain safe
6th Feb 2006, 18:58
Given the general discussion including mention of braking action, what happens what ATC cannot give a braking action figure either verbally or on motne. At present we are forbidden from passing any figures or guide by SRG.:sad: :sad:

bacardi walla
6th Feb 2006, 19:06
One for Leo. How many investigations are currently being under taken in relation to Ryanair's operations :confused:

Flame
6th Feb 2006, 19:11
Another Ryanair thread being dragged into the mud (no pun intended)..!!!!

Big Kahuna Burger
6th Feb 2006, 19:14
STATEMENT
Flight FR712 from London Stansted .......... The aircraft suffered no damage and our engineers are on route to move the aircraft to the terminal building.

Rather a big fib isnt it...?

Aicraft on belly = damaged aircraft in my book.

Jambo Buana
6th Feb 2006, 19:51
How do you know the a/c is on its belly? Can you see from these pictures or are you guessing? My guess is that it isnt, just sunken in snow. But then again Im no accident investigator!!

M609
6th Feb 2006, 19:52
Rather a big fib isnt it...?

Nahhh....according to the Airport Manager at Harstad Evenes (ENEV), the MyTravel bus that did some off roading there last winter, "did not sustain any damage what so ever". Veeery accurate........ ;)
And that was in a safety publication...... :yuk:

Management allways bend the truth to fit their agenda! :eek:

Miraculix
6th Feb 2006, 19:59
Århus airport/AAR/EKAH is open again.

Looking at the picture, there is air between the ground and the belly, so probobly no damage to the underside of the aircraft.

Bounty 53
6th Feb 2006, 20:56
a few facts :

a/c not on belly

crew not aware of braking action poor, last given report was medium to good.

That's it ! No major thing, could have happened to anyone !!

JW411
6th Feb 2006, 21:32
Those of you out there who keep quoting half-hourly Metars have obviously had little or no experience of operating in hostile winter weather conditions. The Metars are of little relevance as far as braking action is concerned except for planning purposes.

In my job I frequently find myself in the hold while the airport authority treats the runway and then comes up with the very latest braking action.

Those of you who do not really understand these things should understand that the braking action given is only accurate for the time at which it was taken. Five minutes later things could be totally different as I have ALMOST found to my cost in the past!

Who was it who said "there but for the grace of God go I"?

Hufty
6th Feb 2006, 21:42
Just out of interest, assuming the crew made an approach in good faith and they had the required preformance, what do you think will happen to them? Do you think this is enough to get the sack?

I feel nothing but sympathy but I'm just curious how an airline would treat this kind of incident??

Hufty.

tribo
6th Feb 2006, 21:43
An observation from accidents and incident reports related to landings at contaminated runways - contaminated with slush, snow or ice. (period - last ten years). The accident and incidents selected are those from landings at contaminated runways where the info from air temperature, dewpoint temperature and precipitation has been available.
Info given: air-/dew temperature, delta T and precipitation

-1/1, 0, - SN
-3/-3, 0, -SN
-4/-4, 0, SN BLSN BR
-1/-1, 0, +SN
-1/-1, 0, -SN
0/0, 0, SN
0/0, 0, -DZFG
-8/-8, 0, FG
0/0, 0, SNGR
0/-1, 1, SHSN
-2/-3, 1, -FZDZ
1/0, 1, SHSN
1/0, 1, -SNRA
-2/-3, 1, +SNGR
2/1, 1, -SHSN
0/-1, 1, -SN
-1/-2, 1, -SN
-9/-10, 1, -SN
-1/-2, 1, -SN
-5/-7, 2, -SN
-2/-5, 2, -SN
2/-1, 3, -SN
-3/-6, 3, SN

Do we see a trend here?

PAXboy
6th Feb 2006, 22:23
Do you think this is enough to get the sack? That is outrageous! Not just 'wait for the inquiry' but 'give them the benefit of the doubt' and all the rest. No matter what you may think of FR as a company, have the decency to wait before having them sacked. Sheesh.:*

Hufty
6th Feb 2006, 22:31
Relax PAXboy!

I don't know what a company will do in this instance that's all! I know one crew that went off and they were absolved from blame and kept their jobs. I'm not sure what the industry norm is though (I only have one data point) and as a pilot I am keen to know.

If you interpret this as a company or crew bashing thing then you either can't read or haven't taken the time to read and understand my post. :*

Best foot forward
7th Feb 2006, 00:30
Calm down JP, the last time i was in the hold over scandinavia and they were trying desperately to clear the runway they continuously updated the BA's for the runway.

Terrain Safe

Why are you not allowed to pass vital safety info to flight crew,? I can remember asking ATC for the crosswind component once and the said they wern't allowed to give it, yet in other parts of the world they are more than happy to.

metropolitan60
7th Feb 2006, 10:30
Anybody know why they didn't use the slides and got out quick? Or is Ryanair saving money here too?

Non Normal
7th Feb 2006, 10:33
Metropolitan60, if there's no risk of fire or other dangers, using the slides would be more risky to passengers' health, surely...

radar707
7th Feb 2006, 11:01
We in ATC aren't allowed to give BA reports as unfortunately our MATS 1 states that the figures from the equipment are unreliable on anything other than an iced over runway. So if any de-icing / anti-icing has taken place then we end up with a wet / slush contaminated runway which means we can't use the official braking action figures from the equipment.

We are however allowed to pass an "unofficial" estimate of the BA from pilots of landing traffic.

RAT 5
7th Feb 2006, 12:27
Radar 707,

Which means that some poor sucker is going to be the "guinea-pig".

However, I find it amazing, in the 21st century, that an airfield, licenced for international jet operations, (I assume yours is), does not have suitable equipment for the type of operations in use. Is it not the case that landing on ice covered runways is not allowed. I presume you mean ice patches etc etc.

Agaricus bisporus
7th Feb 2006, 12:40
Penny to a pinch of slush that the equipment works fine, but someone somewhere has expressed doubts about its perfect accuracy, and due to the current craven attitudes to liability it is deemed better to do nothing and expose 150 people to an unknown hazard than to do your best and risk being accused of occasionally passing on slightly inaccurate data.

Same goes for passing X wind components, but you can at least work this one out for yourself.

GotTheTshirt
7th Feb 2006, 13:46
The hole is not usually caused by the initial mishap.:bored:
It is the large amounts of power used to trying to rectify a normally hopeless case:}

Danny
7th Feb 2006, 14:28
Once again, I have to warn posters to this thread that it is PRIMARILY a website for AIRLINE PILOTS with allowances made for other groups of PROFESSIONAL PILOTS and those in associated professions. Just because there is another Ryanair thread on here doesn't not mean that the hoards of wannabe pilots, pretend pilots or anyone who thinks that because at some time in their lives they were in possession of a boarding pass to any form of aviation transport that they can use it for their own spleen venting or 'loaded' questions such as, for example; "Anybody know why they didn't use the slides and got out quick? Or is Ryanair saving money here too?"

If you have to ask that question in the first place and then have nerve to show your ignorance of anything to do with professional aviation by adding a totally stupid and baited question about saving money then you have no right to be on here in the first place. Whilst there are disputes with Ryanair management about the crews working terms & conditions, no one here amongst our fraternity of fellow pilots would for one second believe that the pilot involved in this incident was as naive and stupid as the posters of such ignorant rhetoric would like us to believe.

The incident that is the focus of this thread is one that could and does happen many times every year somewhere in the world. It has been highlighted because it was actually reported and photographed. This was not a crash or a disaster as some of the more sensitive and anxious posters would have us believe. The aircraft will be returned to service and the airline will continue operating.

I am fed up to the back teeth with muppets who insist on taking over every thread that has so much as a mention of Ryanair with their anti-Ryanair rhetoric when it has nothing to do with the issues that concern the rest of us as pilots. I do not care one iota whether Ryanair charge extra for their baggage or wheelchairs or that their destinations are more than x number of miles from the named city. It's one thing to have a go at Ryanair for their marketing and the way they run their airline. It is another when it comes to the way they treat their pilot workforce. If anyone still has a problem disassociating the two then perhaps this website and its contents are too complicated for you and you should seek less challenging pastures. If you have a problem with paying the wheelchair tax or having to pay for your baggage or anything that seems to excite the enthusiasts into a frenzy then please use the relevant forums on here or find a different spleen venting website where your feelings will be much better catered to. It's bad enough having to deal with Leo Hairy Camel when it comes to issues directly affecting the pilot workforce without having a bunch of aviation enthusiasts trying to goad him into more management inspired verbiage.

tribo
7th Feb 2006, 14:35
Agaricus bisporus
Penny to a pinch of slush that the equipment works fine, but someone somewhere has expressed doubts about its perfect accuracy, and due to the current craven attitudes to liability it is deemed better to do nothing and expose 150 people to an unknown hazard than to do your best and risk being accused of occasionally passing on slightly inaccurate data.

Slightly inaccurate?
In 1962 the ICAO were told that an accuracy of 0.01 existed.
in 1974 ICAO published a final report from the first international program for correlating friction measuring devices. Uncertainty on wet surfaces +-0.20 and on compacted snow or ice surfaces +- 0.10 - 0.15
In 1990 NASA published a report from a joint FAA/NASA research program.
For wet-runway conditions, the estimated aircraft braking performance from the ground-vehicle friction measurements was within +- 0.1 friction coefficient value of measured value, except for some rain-wet data
For snow- and ice-covered runway conditions, the estimated aircraft braking performance from the ground-vehicle measurements was within +- 0.1 friction coefficient value of the measured values.
In 2005 with data from the JWRFMP (Joint Winter Runway Friction Measurement Program) and the use of an ASTM standard it is claimed that one can bring the uncertainty down from +- 0.20 to +- 0.05. No State are using this standard.
From this we can conclude that today the real accuracy or uncertainty related to the use of friction measuring devices seems to be in the order of +- 0.10 or worse. This is more than 10 times worse than what we believed to have in 1962.
Slightly inaccurate?

Best foot forward
7th Feb 2006, 17:02
Thanks tribo any chance of a web site that has the info that you have published.

captjns
7th Feb 2006, 17:41
Anybody know why they didn't use the slides and got out quick? Or is Ryanair saving money here too?

Sounds like a citation from another airline pilot wanna be who is totally cluless about injuries incured by passengers using slides... especially when not necessary.:mad:

BEagle
7th Feb 2006, 18:12
Loss of nosewheel adhesion at low speeds on slippery surfaces will catch anyone out if Mother Nature conspires against you. Certain aerodrome 'piano keys' can be very slippery even when only wet, let alone if the surface is contaminated. Even at idle thrust and walking pace.

Exposing pax to the hazards of freezing conditions by ordering escape chute abandonment 'as a precaution' would be the height of folly. Personally I consider the orderly deplanement using covered steps was a sound policy.

RAT 5
7th Feb 2006, 18:47
Was there not an ej B737, a couple of years ago at AMS, skidding into a lamp-post at limping speed, due to de-ice fluid on the taxi way? Could happen to anyone anytime; even the careful ones.

tribo
7th Feb 2006, 20:12
Thanks tribo any chance of a web site that has the info that you have published.
Sorry, no website for all the reports. Have a look at these links for info from the JWRFMP.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/publication/menu.htm
http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/summary/14400/14498e.htm
http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/projects/air/f/9048.htm

1962 data - ICAO Doc 8298-AGA/593, Aerodromes, Air Routes and Ground Aids Division, Report of the seventh session, Montreal, 13 November - 14 December 1962.

1974 data - ICAO, Programme for correlating equipment used in measuring runway braking action, Final report, 22/2/74. Joint evaluation programme of equipment used in measuring runway braking action undertaken by: Canada, France, Sweden, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, United Kingdom and United States.

1990 data - NASA Technical Paper 2917, Evaluation of two transport aircraft and several ground test vehicle friction measurements obtained for various runway surface types and conditions - A summary of test results from joint FAA/NASA runway friction program, Thomas J. Yager, William A. Vogler and Paul Baldasare, Langley Research Center, 1990

2005 data - Presentation at the IMAPCR 2004 http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/events/2004/imapcr2004.htm Performance and the Requirements for As and Bs from Ground Test Results Showing IRFI is Reasonable and Useful for Reporting Aircraft Braking,James C. Wambold, PhD
CDRM Inc, State College, Pennsylvania,

Joint Winter Runway Friction Measurement Program (JWRFMP): International Runway Friction Index (IRFI) versus aircraft braking coefficient (Mu) (TP 14318E) http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/summary/14300/14318e.htm and

ASTM Standard E2100-04, Standard Practice for Calculating the International Runway Friction Index.http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/summary/13500/13579_3.htm

Busbar
8th Feb 2006, 14:06
Well said Danny! All of you that make smart arse comments about sector pay, times, taxi speeds etc... Let me give you a few facts:

1. Sector pay for pilots does not depend on how quick you did the sector, how quick you reduced the block time etc.. It goes on the total block time for the day which is a set figure. Whether you are one hour early or one hour late is irrelevant. The money for the day does not change.

2. All of the Ryanair 737-800 fleet have OFDM fitted to them. This system (for those that don't know what this is) monitors the aircrafts parameters very accurately during every phase of the flight. If a parameter is exceeded it is recorded and sent back to an independant monitoring station where a bloke looks at it all and takes appropriate action to the crew.

Now for taxiing, you cannot taxi at more than 30 knots or it will register on the OFDM. So all this bull**** about Ryanair takeoff speeds the same as taxi speeds, what are you talking about? And furthermore in this case, I do not know any one pilot that would taxi at more than 5kts in the conditions that were at AAR on the day.

Lets have less speculation and more fact please. The official report will be out soon enough, and until it is I wish people would stop spouting about their opinions when they don't mean Jack Schitt (http://home.pacbell.net/diana_do/knowjack.htm)!

Faire d'income
8th Feb 2006, 15:47
If a parameter is exceeded it is recorded and sent back to an independant monitoring station where a bloke looks at it all and takes appropriate action to the crew.
Questions for Busbar.
Who is the independant monitor in a company that has no union?
Is this person appointed by the company?
Does he take action on behalf of the company or on other authority?
Who pays his wages?
a bloke looks at it all and takes appropriate action to the crew
Can you please explain this part? Thanks.

flaps40
8th Feb 2006, 16:27
this remark sounds suspiciously like ****-stirring. the analysis is in fact done by a very sound, experienced pilot who works for an independant supplier. his analyses are fast accurate and sensible and having spoken to him a couple of times I have every confidence in him. i think the other pilots do too. we get honest and fair feedback where appropriate and the system has stood the test of time so far, having been operational for a couple of years now. no doubt we will be circulated with rational analysis when it becomes available in the usual way

Busbar
8th Feb 2006, 17:28
Questions for Busbar.
Who is the independant monitor in a company that has no union?
Is this person appointed by the company?
Does he take action on behalf of the company or on other authority?
Who pays his wages?
Can you please explain this part? Thanks.


Flaps40 post is true and accurate. Is the **** stirring comment aimed at me though? If so then not the case, far from it! The guy that does this is very good and the system works well.

1. What have unions got to do with safety monitoring on board an aircraft?

2. Ryanair employs this company to monitor the data. This company (can't remember their name) in turn appoint an individual to deal with Ryanair. They have to be independant to Ryanair for obvious reasons.

As for the other questions, I don't know, sorry! I think this info is accurate but if anybody can correct me then please do so!

Faire d'income
8th Feb 2006, 18:31
Thanks for the reply and no I wasn't **** stirring. The question I thought was quite obvious, ops monitoring is necessary but so are your civil liberties and the right to defend yourself. Hence an obvious area for a union if you had one.
If it is completely independant then that is perfectly ok. In a unionised comany it is normal for the company and the union to agree on an individual or individuals to discretely contact offenders detected by the OMS. I was just curious how this is handled at Ryanair.

RAT 5
8th Feb 2006, 21:05
Where's the a/c now? Was it as bad as it looked?

A1C
8th Feb 2006, 22:40
:) No a/c flown back same day with px on board..................More drama on this thread than in Arhuus!.............Good call Danny.

FJP
7th Mar 2006, 23:18
Those of you out there who keep quoting half-hourly Metars have obviously had little or no experience of operating in hostile winter weather conditions. The Metars are of little relevance as far as braking action is concerned except for planning purposes.

In my job I frequently find myself in the hold while the airport authority treats the runway and then comes up with the very latest braking action.

Those of you who do not really understand these things should understand that the braking action given is only accurate for the time at which it was taken. Five minutes later things could be totally different as I have ALMOST found to my cost in the past!

Who was it who said "there but for the grace of God go I"?

:ok: My professional support to your explanation on BA!
Sometimes we/! Just want to see blod and apropriate blame .... It can hapen to anyone of you, or me unless some of you thinks that it will only hapen to others!
Nice to see a Professional taking a stand! :ok:
Rgds FJP:ok:

a123
8th Mar 2006, 05:59
Well after all that silly entry sim checks trying to find old type jet Jokeys good luck and god bless Ryanair:zzz: