AaE 737s

[Wingnuts]

AaE 737s, effectively provide a government subsidy to Qantas.
No doubt Qantas will charge AaE like a wounded bull but it will be Australia Post, Qantas' 50% partner in AaE, who will be picking up the tab.
Following article is from AaE staff news. Nice spin.
It's official.
B737-300s will carry AaE forward
AaE is to replace its aging fleet of B727-200 freighters with converted Qantas B737-300 passenger aircraft.
Board approval has been obtained for the
passenger-to-freighter conversion and subsequent leasing by AaE of four Qantas B737-300 passenger aircraft currently operated by Jetconneet, an Auckland-based wholly owned Qantas subsidiary.
The aircraft will be converted to B737-30ORB
(Rigid Barrier) aircraft (a design developed by Israel Aircraft Industries' Bedak Aviation Group) with installation carried out in Australia by Qantas' Engineering, Technical Operations and Maintenance Services (ETOMS) heavy maintenance facility.
Qantas' has four ETOMS heavy maintenance facilifies around Australia. Its Melbourne facility looks after the heavy maintenance of its B737 fleet.
All of these converted aircraft are to be in service with AaE ahead of the run up to the 2006 Christmas season.
Qantas purchased these aircraft new, and
they were originally on the Australian aircraft register. Two (ZK-JNG and ZK-JNF) were ,manufactured in 1986 the other two (ZK JNH @nd ZK-JNA) were manufactured in 1987. These aircraft will be brought back onto the Australian aircraft register as the first of the (M series jets - XM being AaE's designator
in the way that ZK is Jetconnect's designator and QF is Qantas' designator) and are expected to be registered as VH-XMB, VH-XML, VH-XMO and VH-XMR.
Israel Aircraft Industries Bedak Aviation Group has done 18 B737-30ORB conversions for a number of companies around the world, and has firm orders for many more conversions.
AaE's fleet upgrade was necessitated in part
by the inability of its old B727-200 aircraft to deliver the capacity needed to support forecast growth in its revenue streams but also because of their declining operational reliability and cost effectiveness.
These aircraft have served the company well until recently, but the viability of these aging aircraft is being eroded rapidly by spiralling service and maintenance costs, down time- related opportunity costs, rising oil prices and ongoing regulatory changes.
Ownership of the converted aircraft will
remain with Qantas, with AaE 'wet leasing' them on contract.
In an internal statement issued following the
release by AaE of a Request for Proposal to operate four B737-300 Special Purpose Freighter aircraft earlier this year, AaE Chief Executive, Alien Buckley, said "We are extremely pleased with the approval of the Board to progress the replacement of the aging Boeing 727-200 fleet. The strategy of sourcing these aircraft from Qantas provides further momentum to AaE's long-term plan and commonality in fleet strategy, whilst positioning us to access synergies through our major partners".
Following the delivery of these four aircraft in the latter part of 2006, AaE plans to complete its fleet transition with the acquisition of
additional 8737-30ORB aircraft. Its B727-200 freighters will be retired in a change over program expected to run through to 2008- 2010.
In that same release, Group General Manager - Operations and International, Wayne Dunne, said 'AaE and the Board selected the Boeing 737-300 for many reasons, including crewing, maintenance, reliability, noise and fuel efficiency The existing Oantas fleet of B737 type aircraft will also give us greater flexibility in scheduling aircraft, crew training and maintenance over the coming years. "Environmental benefits include reduced noise on take-off and landing, decreased engine emissions in flight and reduced engine maintenance requirements. The aircraft also offers digital technology an the flight deck and does not require a flight engineer," he said. .

[rescue 1]

ZK is Jetconnect's designator

But I thought ZK was the country identifier?? The PR team have got it right again.

[SkySista]

Regarding the comment on down-time... it seems to me they'd get a lot more sent if they didn't have two of the buggers sitting on the ground in Perth all weekend... :E is there a particular reason for this? I've always wondered about it...

Will be sad to see those lovely ladies go, to be replaced by 737s... ugh, like there's not enough of them here already!! ;)

I'm interested to know what the difference is between using 727s and 737s to carry freight...capacity was mentioned... the 727s seem (from the outside anyway) to be bigger... is the capacity issue more a take-off weight problem, e.g. newer aircraft & engines, means they can lift more??

Freight isn't my thing, interested to hear opinions from those who deal with it... :)

[Capt Claret]

SkySista

What would you do with the two buggas that sit on the ground?

Set up a main facility in PH, or ferry them east for maint then back to the west to fire up on Monday night?

[757manipulator]

I wonder if they looked into the 757 freighter conversion, from an operators point of view its around 30% more expensive to operate and an maintain, but it carrys around 70% more revenue payload:ok:

[Animalclub]

Trouble is 757man is that QF don't own any 757s. Got to keep the whole deal in-house... gotta keep my bonus so I rent out my surplus 737s at a good rate to a company that can't go anywhere else. Or can they?

No one's asked if the 727 guys/gals will get a position on the 737s or will that go to QF pilots?

Just curious and, maybe, cynical.

[Buster Hyman]

existing Oantas fleet of B737 type aircraft will also give us greater flexibility in scheduling aircraft, crew training and maintenance over the coming years

That might go some way to answering your question Animalclub

[dodgybrothers]

all that and still be cheaper!! Wow I needs to gets me some AAE accountants.

[Animalclub]

I guess you're right Buster.

Whatever happened to fair, decent, honour? Am I getting too old, senile (keep quiet Torres) or are these words without meaning any more.

I'll get off my soapbox.

[puff]

Well considering the 727s are operated by National Jet i'd say the 737s will be as well. Remember years ago NJS had a 737, and a lot of the blokes on the 727 are ex AN and have 737 experience too.

[SkySista]

Capt Claret...

So they get worked on during weekends, do they? Just wondered, is all. Thought there'd have to be a good reason, as we all know a/c don't make money sitting on the ground!!! :)

[Capt Claret]

Skysista

I didn't make myself clear.

I don't know if they're worked on over the weekend or not. I'd suspect that most maintenance would be done east coast or perhaps ADL.

However, whilst you're correct that they don't make maoney sitting on the ground (depending on the contract terms :E )I don't think I've ever seen any regular freight work done on Fri-Sun night. Thus they sit on the deck, and if all the maint is geared for the majority of the fleet on the east coast, one must wear two sitting on the deck for the weekend, or find someone who'll pay AAE to use them.

[SkySista]

Thanks for that Capt C... and here's me thinking the freight steeds were off 24/7 :E

Like i said, I doesn't know much about them boxes and things... self loading freight's more my thing... :E

Will be interesting to see how things work out, re: crewing/contracts for the running of said new steeds.... :cool:

[Buster Hyman]

As AaE run as a predominantly Domestic freight carrier, they rely on the supply, and most of the supply from business runs Mon-Fri. Freight picked up on a Friday night would most likely be trucked interstate. (For the MEL-SYD trucks, they used to stop at Holbrook or Tarcutta...BTW). Cheaper than a jet, especially as it would be almost empty!:ok:

[P|_azbot]

Quieter I would think.

[nomorecatering]

Maybe they might replace 6 x 72's with 8 x 73's. Thats got to be a good thing.

Now why cant the 146's be replaced by 717's. The 71s must be cheaper to run even if they dont have the same uplift capacity. Subjectively they seem quieter than the 146's.

[Buster Hyman]

IPEC seemed to do allright with the DC-9's...but, then again, I don't see them around anymore. :(

[Wingnuts]

So who is going to crew them?

In addition to what Buster has pointed out above, the other clue is ‘AeA will ‘wet lease’ them’. Usually wet leases are ACMI leases. Aircraft, Crew, Maintenance, Insurance come as a package. (Jetstar get 787s & 330s, mainline get 20 year old freighters – a sign to the future.)

But AeA may be confused. They think they are getting them on wet lease but when they read the fine print, will likely find it is actually a dry lease.
Apparently National Jet are crunching the numbers on supplying the crew. However, they were stung big time by Qantas on the 717 deal and are understandably probably reluctant to do business

[Capt Claret]

Well it's become obvious after reading this thred, that the management of resonably successful companies like AAE & QF & Aust Post are incompetent and they should refer to anonymous PPRuNers for business advice, that way there'd be shiny new pre-loved jets rather than already owned pre-loved jets and said businesses would be run so much better. :rolleyes:

As for However, they were stung big time by Qantas on the 717 deal and are understandably probably reluctant to do business

You've got to be joking!

[planemad2]

IPEC seemed to do allright with the DC-9's...but, then again, I don't see them around anymore. :(
That had nothing to do with the DC9s, or how well they did their job.
The DC9s were owned by Mayne Nickless, and operated by Independent Air Freighters for IPEC and Ansett, plus charters.
When Mayne Nickless wanted to get into the Medical Industry more (make more money), they sold the DC9s to Evergreen in the USA.
Last I heard they did not even use them, just as spares. :{

[COP]

Why is the 737 300 being used as a freighter? Is it the fact that they are there and owned, or because they will make more money? Surely ex QF 767 200s would be a much better option instead of the 757 which would of course be the best. The 737 has and is being used as a freighter all over the world now, and seems to be doing well, but Australia is a big country and I wonder if this is the most prudent choice and the motives behind it. They are after all 20 years old and there are better options out there. Can anyone expand on how many 737 freighters will be in AAE tone all up and if a fleet renewal program for the ever expanding cargo business occurs in the near future which it will have to due to ageing aircraft, and other options with a much greater carrying capacity and lower or equal fuel burn than the 300. Even an 737 800, although much more expensive to purchase or lease would be a great option, 20ton greater weight capacity. There are probably none around and will not be any around for a long time, but it is just a thought. There are usually reasons for decisions like these, it is just that they dont always make sence to the masses.

[Sid Departure]

Board approval has been obtained for the
passenger-to-freighter conversion and subsequent leasing by AaE of four Qantas B737-300 passenger aircraft currently operated by Jetconneet, an Auckland-based wholly owned Qantas subsidiary.
. .

If Jetconnect are about to loose 4 737's, what are they going to replace these aircraft with? Assuming they are going to be replaced!

[BAE146]

From my aussie connections, I believe that Jetconnect are soon to be "replaced" with Jetstar and they will operate A320s in competition with Freedom Air.

Now I admit this cannot be confirmed and IS only a rumour, but I would be willing to bet a case of Fosters that it will happen.

Also heard (again rumour) that the AaE 727 drivers are not real happy with thier EBA negotiaions and only about three of the 727 Captains will voluntarily go onto the 737. That's gonna leave a big hole for QF to fill to crew those freighters. About time someone had the gutz to stick it up Qantas !:mad:

[Buster Hyman]

COP. A small but full freighter, will beat a half empty large freighter any day...just like a PAX aircraft. This works especially well when you are a monopoly!

Price can be driven up by demand &, if they feel inclined to uplift a greater load, they can always grab a 767 or two to move the backlog.

Now, if there was real competition in Domestic freight, it'd be a vastly different story...

[Pete Conrad]

BAE 146, and how would that work? What aircraft type would Jetconnect operate domestically within New Zealand then? given that Air New Zealand don't operate the A320 domestically within NZ. Jetconnect has 3 737-400's on the way to replace the 300's going to freight work, I doubt whether the A320 and Jetstar is going to take over any more Jetconnect flying soon.

[polemic]

BAE146, put a decent beer on it and you might get some nibbles.

[PLovett]

Mmmmm....................


I bet the residents of Midway Point will be happy to see the back of the 727s given their propensity to break every window in sight on a Pittwater visual departure from 30 Hobart. :E

[Wingnuts]

One of the problems for overnight freight is low utilisation, 6 hrs per night, 4 nights per week. The 73s, being slow, may push that out to 61/2 hrs but it is still not enough to be viable.
Perhaps with the wind down of Qantas and expansion of Jetstar(LCCs do not carry freight) AeA may be planning daylight freighters or, because of their monopoly, simply increase rates.
Toll, AeA’s largest customer, had planned to move its freight to a Virgin stand-alone freight operation. But unless its management gets its act together with the take over bid of Patrick, that is not going to happen. It is ironic that the ACCC’s rejection of the take over because competition would be reduced for rail and sea, strengthens the AeA monopoly of airfreight.
No wonder AeA and Qantas have uncorked the Moet and are toasting the health of Samuel, the government competition watchdog. He has handed a largely government owned company a licence to print money.
I am not suggesting a parallel with that other company management stuff up, the AWB, but you would have to ask the question.

OK OK, that’s another forum for another day…..

Talking of company management, what are they doing at Australia Post? Are they asleep or over at Qantas HQ negotiating the details of their career path?
The value of a 7373 after conversion is about $12-$15 mil. It carries 8 containers compared to the 72s 12, so it is going to take 3 73s to replace 2 72s. About $40mil to replace $5mil, the value of 2 72s. And you still have the same number of engines, 6, same number of crew, 6, but the added expense of an extra airframe.

Excellent deal for Qantas. Accolades to Geoff and his management team. They will get that share price up to $5 yet.

[john_tullamarine]

.. and, of course, if you were interested in just making money on the aircraft .. you would go back to the bigger DC9s ... which would eat both the 72 and especially the 73. Now, I loved flying the 72 freighters but the dollar reality is the Diesel Nine.

[Centaurus]

Rumour around that Air Nauru has applied to operate the surplus 727's as the airline operated these types successfully many years ago. The runway was only 5600 ft long then but with it extended several years ago to nearly 7000 ft the 727 could carry many passengers and good freight weights.

[Aussie Pete]

I think the 727 reliability comments are a bum rap. NJS have done a great job getting these planes up to scratch and like many older planes parts can bite but they're good planes now. A lot better than when they got them.

On the cargo conversions the jet Connect planes coming over will be replaced by QF 734s. So, JetConnect will then expand into 733 and 734. Longer term Jetstar NZ is another matter but you have to weigh up the good side of having the two fleets in the same fuse/tail paint jobs. Deploying A320s into NZ would mean fighting cheap 737s with much higher value airframes and maybe the costs can't get there right now.

On the freight thing you have to remember that Australia is relatively unique. Most of our major business amrkets are all within one day's road freight of each other. Express road freight can get to all major capitals excepting DRW and PER within 24 hours. That leaves high margin express freight (next flight etc) to the planes and of course PER and DRW. Then you have the other business centers to deal with and some might pay for the cost of air freight (and we all know how much 'air freight' goes by road anyhow). Also, because of the lack of 'trunk' routes for the freight where it's all about capacity the 733 makes a lot of sense - flexibility, performance (out of all fields full), and reliability.

The IAI door kits are on the boat. No turning back now. Let the Avalon boys out with their cutters! Don't weep as the cut is made.

[Wingnuts]

Apparently reliability is becoming an issue with the 72. The way I understand it, AeA is a big part of the problem but do not see themselves as part of the solution. The 72 is maintenance intensive and AeA is reluctant to pay. Also parts are a problem, both quality and quantity. You only get what you pay for.
For example, there are 15 engines flying but AeA elects not to hold a spare. An unscheduled engine change happens might be once year and they whinge because of a week’s downtime waiting for a replacement. And that’s the 72s fault. As my dad used to say, ‘A poor tradesman always blames his tools’.

AeA should step up and take responsibility for its decisions. To quote one of the troops close to the action, ‘AeA needs to put its money where its month is’. Otherwise it’s going to be more of the same with the 73.

[relax737]

planemad, better not tell kaptin M that. He thinks IPEC went out of business because of the events of '89. Better wash my mouth out with soap after mentioning that year.

[planemad2]

planemad, better not tell kaptin M that. He thinks IPEC went out of business because of the events of '89. Better wash my mouth out with soap after mentioning that year.
I would never try to tell Kaptin M anything.......... :rolleyes:
However the "events of 1989" had absolutely nothing to do with it, in fact the DC9s operated VERY profitably for almost 10 years after that. ;)
From memory it was December 1998 the redundancies were issued, for effect in February 1999. :{
VH-IPC and VH-IPF will be long remembered. :ok:

[cunninglinguist]

4 Captains off to do their endorsements /training ( at some point in the future ) with QF on NG, got a bit better deal than the 71 drivers..............they are not paying. ( don't shoot me, this came from a Jetex pilot )
Re: an earlier post about the 717 load carrying capability, even at 42C at Newman it lifts as much as a 146-300, most of the rest of the time the 115-117 seats can be filled and those seats travel 20% fatster :cool:

[rescue 1]

...off to do their endorsements...

Maybe they are thinking of joining IAC and the AirPac contract.

My sources tell me that there will be no announcement on who's doing the crewing till the end of next week.

[757manipulator]

Sell the sonic cruisers (727's)....send the 737 classics somewhere in Asia (The Chinese will pay top Dolla for them) and get the 757 in there so I can get back to Oz:}

[3 Holer]

got a bit better deal than the 71 drivers..............they are not paying.

That's correct , but there is a 3 year bond attached to the rating. Bail out under three years and you're up for $25,000.

[Animalclub]

That's correct , but there is a 3 year bond attached to the rating. Bail out under three years and you're up for $25,000.

Is that unreasonable?

[cunninglinguist]

A hell of alot more palatable than paying for your training when you've been in the company 10-15 years I would have thought.:confused:

[mangatete]

So if the 733s are on a wet lease who's going to be the operator i.e providing the flight crew?

[BAE146]

....eh,....... now let's see...........low cost,.........no pilot resistance to being exploited,.............lowest paid jet pilots in the industry..................Need any more clues?

Gotta be JetConnect (read QF LCC) or National Jet Systems ! (QF's other bum boy):suspect:

p.s. maintenance may screw NJS, so guess it will Geoff D and his offshore whores.:{