Why still out of work after years??

[jamestkirk]

With the danger of recieving both barrels for this question.

Has anyone got any information, based on published statistics, how many pilots are on the job market. This obviously excludes employed ones that are looking elsewhere.

It just that i have completed the loganair on-line form which has a number on the top of the second page. Through previous applications and speaking to others that have applied. It seems to be an application count.

This number on it today was 2057.

I find it hard to believe that there are 2057, well, 2056 pilots who have looked for work at loganair since their on line application system was installed.

If anyone has any info on the original question please let me know.

If it's REALLY DEPRESSING, the PM me.
I would not want anyone getting emotional over my macabre curiousity.

[aces low]

I've filled it in at least twice in the last two months.

Best guess I have heard is that there are between 1000-1500 frozen atpls out there. Each month more come off the prodcution line...and a few get jobs.

Maybe there will always be a pool of unemployed atpls, and demand will never outstrip supply....but then again I've been wrong before. Ask my ex wife.

[Mr Magoo]

About five Cabair types, (incluing a couple of instructors I think,) got jobs with them last month.

Aces - still on number one, (just!)

Magoo

[davepearsall]

Excuse my ignorance in the subject matter but got a question.

Why are some people years after their pilot training still searching for a job?

Is it a bit to do with a bit of luck? Personalities? Academic achievements prior to training?

When I eventually go to train I would want the full knowledge that I was the most "employable" person with any other things which airlines looks for.

Many thanks

[A320rider]

it is a question of luck and $...

specially $$$$ !

[mad_jock]

Its luck and personality, aiming to high, currency also the main reason seems to be CV.

A320 is obviously out of work because he is a knob.

The people who say they have sent 1000's of cv's out and never recieved an interview are usually in the crap CV bracket. Some of the ones I have seen are pretty dire. The younger wannabies don't have any life experence to put down and also if its there first proffessional job they have applied for don't have a clue how to construct a CV for a job. They also think that quanity will work over quality. Each CV should be rewritten for the company you are applying to along with a covering letter. Spending money with one of the CV companys will help this. But if everyone goes down this route the standard will just get higher and we will be back to stage 1 again.

The ones that get past the CV filtering stage and fail the interview stage have a few more problems but experence may help so that eventually they get a job.

And the luck factor you can increase by being proactive visiting and networking so that you are there and known when a job turns up.

Currency if you have done all the hard work of getting the interview and passing it you basically have the job. Its a waste if you go and blow it in the sim because you haven't flown a SID in the last 9 months.

Aiming to high if you only want to fly a shiny Jet you will have more people your up against and you will be cutting out all those other jobs out there.

All the people I know that put the effort in have jobs of some form, and suprisingly the ones flying the shiny jets arn't the ones that are happiest in life quite the oppersite in fact.

MJ

[blueplume]

Choose the companies that you really would want to work for based on location, company history, reputation and send your stuff to them. Keep it down to ONE page. It is possible whatever people say. Get a friend to read it and remove anything that's just a waste of space. If you give your DOB you don't need to give your age. Use a small font for address, school grades and such like. If you have a degree no need to give school grades. Airlines may reject you for not having attended the right school but most won't.
No need to list all your references or even to say "Available upon request etc., etc.. If they want them they'll ask for them because they'll assume you can provide them.
Getting the picture?
What is important is hours, experience, and licence details in a visual format that attracts interest and draws the eye to the relevant information (use text boxes).
Don't lie, don't invent things. Don't say you'll work for the devil by selling your soul because you won't and you shouldn't. Be confident but realize that you must apply for positions that are appropriate to your level of experience. You may start in Ops but soon move into the cockpit.

[hingey]

Taking a few years to get a job other than instructing is not a rarity I understand. It requires patience and determination, but it does pay off.

The reason many people don't get a job is as mad jock says. However even a CV that shines when looked at doesn't necessarily mean an interview. You have to be prepared to be 'cold shouldered' by many airlines that get over 500 CV's a day, even when they're not recruiting. You can imagine them not having the time or energy to carefully examine each one, file them into Yes, No and Maybe piles, then writing back to say "We are considering your application", or "we have you on file", on even PFO. Sometimes, knowing somebody in the company helps, harsh as this can seem, though there is certainly no harm in going out to meet people in the industry (unless they get to know you and realise you're a tw@, which may contribute to A320 rider being unemployed).

As mad jock also says, don't think that airline jobs are the only ones out there. Also don't think that paying for a type rating significantly boosts your employability. I know somebody who paid for a 737 TR, but blew his chances with BA at an interview and turned down a job offer flying Twin Otters because they weren't shiny 737's. This is the kind of attitude that stops people (see above comment) getting work, which obviously came across at his BA interview.

When you get your licence maybe look into working in ops at a local airline, or instructing. Don't do anything unnecessary or stupid, keep positive, current, determined, don't give up and you will make it!

Best of luck

h

[davepearsall]

some great info there guys! Bar one obviously!

Thanks again!

[Nimbus5]

The above are good asnwers, but here's another bit. Most airlines use an online application form, which they run through a filter that bins the ones that don't meet a strict set of criteria. Those criteria are almost never published. The only way to really know what they are looking for is probably through networking or attending seminars put on by the recruiters themselves. Most of them do attend seminars, particularly making the circuit to talk to students at the more reputable flying schools. The students at such schools will usually have the inside scoop on what any particular airline is looking for in their online application. I'll give you a hint though, once you make it through the filter and a set of eyes sees your CV, it has got to impress as stated above. I would not be at all surprised if part of the online filter is a spelling check, but good spelling/grammar definitely come in once an eyeball sees your application for the first time. You'd be surprised how many get binned right here!

[A320rider]

whatever the reason is, most people here do not have a job.
I know captains with thousand hours on airbus, who don't have any job .
companies prefer pilots paying to work.
to much experience,or not enough, it doesn't matter, we are simply to many...
and btw you are the knobs!!!:) .only a knob visit this forum.

[ali1]

You know captains with thousands of hours on airbus and cant get a job??

Come on dont lie now, really!!!???

I dont hink the majority are out of work, are they???

[GrahamK123]

A320rider you say only a knob would visit this forum yet you have been visiting for 5 months having posted 158 times.....

Why don't you do us all a favour and either keep your comments useful or just don't say anything at all!!

[mightymouse111]

Its all about LUCK.

You can make your own luck if you are in the right place at the right time, knock on more doors, can buy a TR & Hours, know the Chief pilot personally, already work in a good position in the company etc etc.

But it is not based on your ability, unless you get an interview you will not have chance to shine and prove yourself.

How do you get an interview??? Now that is a question!

1. Its not based on ability because I know loads of great pilots with first time passes that went to big schools,that cannot get in.

2. Its not based on academic qualifications or what you did before, again I know loads of people who have degree's & professional qualifications (and have the ability expressed in point 1) who have never got an interview.

3. It cannot be personality, because you need the interview first!

4. I agree your CV can have an influence but out of the pilots I know they all spent money on getting a professional CV done and still no luck (and thats after 1+2)

So who are those getting jobs and why? Well in my own limited experience I know of only a few airlines currently recruiting low hours pilots and the only people getting jobs there seem to be on recommendations from a few of the larger schools(mostly integrated). Other airlines prefer that you went down the instructing route, other airlines prefer a TR+ hours, some airlines prefer to train you themselves but then we are back to the first point.

Like most things in this industry it comes down to money £££££$$$$$$, first go instructing, then get a TR, then buy hours, then if still no luck, buy another TR and try again. That will give you your best shot, but by then you are probably over 30 and you will be up against the ageist airlines that think that you lose your brain and wet the bed after that age.

No one said it was easy and full respect to all that try to match all the different Chief Pilots differing requirements. But make no mistakes its all about proving yourself and that means £££££££££££££££££ and once you done that its all down to LUCK.

[mad_jock]

Personally I think its all to do with having a cunning plan.

The luck factor can be changed by hard work and application.

Most jobs you will never hear about and never know who got them or by what means.

Mightymouse thankfully my experence is slightly better than yours. In fact by far the most available/ taken on type of wannabie has been modular. A few paying for TR but mostly not. And there has been lots of them over the last 2 years.

There are far more companys taking on low houred guys than you realise. But unfortunatly for most and fortunate for the rest of us, they are not located in the South of England and never will be because of the operating costs involved.

PPL students I taught have gone the whole cycle and have now started in airlines. Most of the guys that were looking for jobs when I was a PPL in here are now Captains flying heavy tin.

Personally I never even applied to a jet operator. And mentioned that in my covering letters.

Most wannabies slip away from this forum as they gain employment and you will never know how many came read picked out enough information acted on it and left with a job. The ones that are left stay and tell everyone how bad the employment is.

Things that look good on your CV are stuff like

Being a member of the TA
A special constable
First responce ambulance person
etc

It also gives you lots to talk about and reference in your interviews and when filling in these online application forms.

And A320rider you can bitch and complain all you like about not getting a job. But fundamentally there is only one person that can change your "luck" thats you. Your obviously unemployable as a pilot just now, the gate posts arn't going to change for you, you need to move yourself to meet them.

[scroggs]

A320Rider is having a week out to consider the wisdom of insulting the people he talks to here every day. He may come back a better person, who knows? :hmm:

Scroggs

[mad_jock]

I was going to edit the last post but...

Unfortunatly there are more pilots than jobs.

There where will be some that fall out getting the ATPL ground exams.

There will be some that run out of money doing the IR.

There will be some that just can't make the grade for the IR test.

Once you have completed all the hoops and join the pool, there are some that will never make it out of that pool. Some through no real fault of there own.

Its all about effort you have to make sure that your putting in more effort than the other 2 people standing next to you. Some people instinctively put the effort in and get jobs quickly. In someways The contractors have an advantage being used to driving CV's out, going to interviews, walking in on a job and appearing to start work 5 mins after walking in the door.

Others don't have this advantage, they think they are putting the effort in but unfortuatly its miss aimed and they get missed every time.

The luck thing is there. There is nothing you can do about chief pilots taking the top half of a pile dumping it in the bin and saying "I don't need unlucky pilots" apart from networking and someone handing the CP your CV and saying thier a nice bloke/lass

There is a gamble starting down the road to becoming a pilot. Money wise you are looking at 35-100k's depending on the route you take and when you cut your loses/ you get the first job. In real terms of earned money that's 50k to 140K before tax. If you have borrowed the money it becomes a very scary amount very quickly. It is aleast 2 years of your life if not more. For a job you don't have a clue about. And unless you have close family who are pilots you really won't have a clue whats involved. Its a brillant job don't get me wrong but the flying the aircraft is only about 30% of the job.

The whole training industry is geared so you don't know the risks involved. Its virually impossible to get out of the CAA any form of usefull numbers. Which would be relatively easy to produce.

Number of Intial IR's passed a year through CAA examiners
Number of intial type ratings issued.
The medical forms give type currently flown and hours so number of pilots flying over 400 hours a year should give numbers actually flying the line.

The failure of wannabies in someways is supporting the industry. The powers that be get money, the airlines have a buyers market. The tax man gets his VAT and fuel tax. If there wasn't such a poor ratio of trainees going through the system to jobs compared to the ones that didn't make it. The whole proccess would cost an awful lot more than it does now.

Basically the people who arn't getting the jobs are subsidising those of us that did get in jobs. And there are some very pwerful people out there that don't want the situation to change.

MJ

[apruneuk]

Scroggs

I hope you let A320rider out of his box soon - he is quite obviously a complete wind-up merchant with the skin of a rhinocerous. As long as you take everything he says with a large pinch of salt he can actually be quite entertaining!