Tell me this isn't true?

[The Swinging Monkey]

Evening all,
Last night I had a very pleasant evening in the new mess at Scampton and, whilst having a beer in the bar with a friend, I asked him where the famous painting of Guy Gibson and his dog had gone.
I was horrified to hear that it had been removed from public view because the dog's name had caused offence!
You will understand my utter dismay when I was told that the complainant was not a civilian at all, but a serving airman!
Apparantly the said chap is one of our ethnic minority brethrin, and virtually 'demanded' that the picture be removed as the 4-legged animals name in the title was 'offensive' to him.
Despite my pleadings and persistance, my friend and others in the mess would not confess to it being a wind up.

If this is anything other than a wind up, then the person responsible needs to be taken to one side and have a few lessons in RAF history firmly inscribed in his brain. Likewise, the mess manager et al should be ashamed for allowing an individual to belittle the course of history, and get the picture reinstated pronto!

If it is a wind up, then I shall take myself off and have a good talking to myself, before I enter into a session of self mutilation!

Please tell me this isn't true.....................is it?

Kind regards to all
TSM

[tablet_eraser]

Sheesh, I do hope this isn't true. I can understand why the word "n****r" would cause offence, but the dog's name "Nigger" is surely something different. We're talking about a different period in history. If we are to censor something as simple as a name because it causes offence, what can we expect next? Republicans to demand we remove portraits of the Queen and Prince Philip?

This smacks of someone making a decision without giving due consideration to the historical context in which the painting was produced. What future, then, for Nigger's grave?

From: Chairperson, Federated Unethnical Quangos of Unanimity of the European Union
To: Officers' Mess Manager, RAF Littleton-on-Sea

Brother (Sir is elitist, refer to me as Sister in your reply),

Several items in and around your facility have been highlighted to me under the terms of the Needless Persecution of Customs Act 2001. I hereby provide notice that you are to make the following changes:

1. Firstly, the term "Officers' Mess" is deemed anachronistic, elitist and unfair. Let us not forget the cruelty inflicted by officers on their soldiers during the First World War. The word "Mess" seems to indicate that your young persons are untidy, and this is deemed likely to cause them undue stress and humiliation. Your facility is therefore to be renamed "The Managerial Facility".

2. It has been noted that several paintings in your mess depict members of the so-called "Royal Family". These are clearly offensive to taxpayers and republicans and are to be replaced with pictures of hard-working, ethnically-diverse persons in the sunshine.

3. Likewise the pictures of Spitfires and other machines of war, which are deemed likely to cause offence and distress to our cousins in the so-called "German" province of Europe. Suggested replacements are pictures of a range of flowers from around the world.

4. One of your Managerial Facility guests noted the presence of red roses on the Facility's lawns. These cause offence and trauma to those of Yorkshire extraction and are to be replaced with statues of civil rights leaders and lawyers.

5. Your facility contains a bar. This is offensive to teetotal persons and is to be replaced with a library bearing a selection of books by up-and-coming world authors such as Yann Martel and Haruki Murakami - none of the outmoded, racist bile from the likes of Shakespeare, please. But wasn't Oscar Wilde gay? You can add as many of his books as you like.

Should these demands not be met, you will be prosecuted and sentenced to a five-year break in a pleasent holiday camp called Belmarsh.

Sincerely,

I M Pathetic
FUQU

[SASless]

Forget about the painting and the grave....what about poor old Nigger? Is he to wind up in a pauper's grave with no headstone or honour for a life well lived? How do you put his name on a gravestone and not offend someone who might happen to mow the grass or stroll by? What's in a name anyway? He responded to it without insult or embarrassment....why should a total stranger have a problem with it?

Is he to become like that famous person in the song....to be removed from place to place anytime a new sewer is needed or there is a stink about having him planted in the turf? Maybe he should be hidden in a woodpile somewhere....and thereby give some credence to that famous suggestion?

[DaveO'Leary]

My old mum (still with us) worked on the Lancs during WWII (Avro factory Manchester) she was a supervisor checking the play at the wing tips. She said to me today, "Where are we now, are we all still British" I had no answer.

DO'L

[Fugazi1000]

If the rumours are true about the planned remake of the Dambusters film, then the rumours that Guy's dogs name will also be changed need to be believed. It's just not PC. :hmm:

[CashMachine]

I'm sorry but I'm going to play devils advocate here.
The word is offensive and someone complained about it. Therefore something had to be done about it!
What if the dog were called C**t or Paki or Hitler (not that it would have been called Hitler)?
I'm afraid that your reference to "one of our ethnic breterin" speaks volumes as well!
However, I do have a problem with the word nigger. How is it that it is so offensive and yet black rappers use it, sometimes to excess, in some of their songs!! Either it's offensive or it isn't!

[Ad astra per aspera]

Suppose I in later years, not content with sprogs wreaking havoc around the house, decide that a black lab would be a great addition to the family. Sprog may have seen the original Dambusters film with original references, suggesting 'Nigger' would be a great forename for the latest Aspera family member....Why not? - Its in honour of the big dog himself, sitting on a cloud somewhere in dismay now.

Given that the word 'n****r' is used as a label so frequently now on the radio. television & written media by those who claim to be so offended by it I don't see how naming a dog in a film, according to a character who was every bit associated with the squadron as Guy Gibson himself should be outlawed by the PC brigade.

- Oops CashMachine beat me to the point

[mystic_meg]

I think that this situation needs to be seen in the correct context: Ask yourself whether, back in those days, Guy Gibson deliberately named his faithful dog as he did to deliberately provoke anyone? I think the resounding reply would be "No, he did not!"
So, maybe a compromise would be to re-instate the picture forthwith, and alongside it place a notice to the effect that when Guy Gibson named his dog, he did so with no offence intended whatsoever, because at the time the name 'Nigger' did not have the connotations that sadly it has today.

[CaptainFillosan]

CM, what a stupid thing to say. That is not playing Devil's Advocate in my view it is playing to the crowd. This is England where I was bought up and when we allowed immigrants to come to this country and not expect us to change so that we fit in with all their beliefs.

I had two dogs in my childhood and both were called Nigger. Both Labs. Somehow they knew which one was which. Probably the tone.

However, we speak of a dog that has passed with his master into recent history and if someone at Scampton is not happy with a picture of a great man on the wall with his beloved dog Nigger beside him. Then bloody tough. The Staish should be shouting in someone's ear by now and telling him what a prat he was. Or perhaps it was the Staish who decreed it should be taken down. If it is all true of course. In which case he she be reported for discrimination against a hero and his pal.

Scampton has a special place in history too, maybe someone up there will think of a good reason to remove the name from the history books. People have to recognise that history took place there - brilliant history and if he doesn't like then pi@@ off!

I just it isn't true but somebody from the famous place will let us know.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Hummingfrog]

Perhaps a compromise could be reached where the painting is put back up with a flap over the dog's name. The flap would be connected to a light in the bar and anybody who lifted the flap would have to buy a round of drinks:)

A similar idea was used on a fig leaf on a statue in a ladies loo I believe:ok:

HF

[Rakshasa]

It's a Black Labrador FFS! I supose if he'd called him 'Coalie', Miners would've been offended?

Should we knock down Belsen and Auswitz and airbrush them out of existence? Cause hell, you'd be hard pressed to come up with something more politically incorrect than them!

No, we don't. We remember the people who died there, why they died and do our damnedest to teach our kids why it was such a bad thing.

History is full of unpleasant things wether we like it or not and trying to alter it to suit modern PCness is crass, idiotic, and a disservice to both those who lived through it and those who'll come after us.

I really hope the staish puts his boot up the arse of the person who took it down.

[Melchett01]

So, it appears that if something is offensive, just complain and it will be removed regardless of whatever anybody else thinks.

If I were you TSM, I would complain to the PMC that I found the behaviour of whoever complained offensive and would like 'it' removed from the Mess forthwith. I find the ability of a small minority to force their views, values and opinions on the majority offensive. Will anybody do anything to stop it happening in future? I suspect not.

Racism doesn't have any place in the RAF, history however, does; if you don't like it, either man up or find a fluffier organisation to work for. I suggest the French government; they are very good at re-writing history to suit their own purposes.

[truckiebloke]

Rakshasa ''It's a Black Labrador FFS! I supose if he'd called him 'Coalie', Miners would've been offended?''

Are we still allowed to say black?? i thought that was offensive too!!

Its good though, as long as we keep giving in to the PC brigade and every minority... for instance, the Danish publish a cartoon about Muhammed.. thats really really terrible.... The muslims storming the EU buildings - fine, Muslims parading on the streets today shouting ''jihad jihad'' - fine , more threats in the streets of england today threatening another 7/7 - fine....

As long as we have our priorities straight..!!

[Pontius Navigator]

Oh dear, we had a cat called Pinkie and another Blackie.

What of Black Beauty or the Gay Gordon?

[SASless]

To think people wonder why I refuse to have any more Labs for buddies....last one was my namesake...."Useless"!

[ZH875]

Or Black Pudding, Blackberries, Black Treacle?.

Blackboards are now 'Chalkboards', Black Ice is 'Invisible Ice'.

And If I am to be honest, most of the 'Black' people I know are actually Brown. So why all the fuss?, If no malice or insult is intended, then why is it assumed that someone will take offence, and this is usually by some 'PC' person who has nothing better to do than think of possible insults, and how it may be possible to 'misunderstand' everything that is said.

[Get me some traffic]

My ghast is well and truly flabbered!!
I told the Memsahib about this and she wishes to object. This is a piece of English history and part of RAF tradition. The codeword "Nigger" is part of our heritage and we should be proud of it. These men died for our freedom and the right of free speech. We despair.

[Onan the Clumsy]

What if the dog were called C**t

:} :} :} :} :} :} :} :}

[Tartan Giant]

I'm sorry but I'm going to play devils advocate here.
The word is offensive and someone complained about it. Therefore something had to be done about it...........
"Someone".... so who the bloody hell is this "someone"... God albloodymighty?

The PMC should have said, "Noted" and done bugger all about it.

That picture is up there from bye-gone days, when some prat could not jump on the PC band-waggon.
It was hung there not to cause offense, but a visible reminder of RAF History. If the idiot who complained cannot hack that, then he should not be allowed in the Mess - perhaps some PC excuse could be dreamed up, improperly dressed, walking with intent, too much aftershave!

Let's remind those PC plumbers what it is about: it is slightly off track, but most of us will see the thrust.

England - The Right to Leave Our Country - YOU have the right, the right to leave anytime you want!
If you are claiming off the Social Services just cancel your GIRO.
After England not wanting to offend other cultures by putting up Xmas lights. After hearing that the State of South Australia changed its opinion and let a Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's license with her face covered, this prompted this editorial written (and amended by an English citizen from an Australian citizen's writing; inserting words suitable in the UK).
IMMIGRANTS, NOT BRITISH, MUST ADAPT.
Take It or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on London, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of British.
However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to England.
However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This idea of England being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.
As British, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle.
This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.
We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the Language!
Dieu et Mon droit (French, "God and my right") is our National Motto.
This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it in certain places.
If our God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because our God is part of our culture.
If our 'ways' offends you, or you don't like "A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.
We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from.
This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this.
But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our National Motto, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great British freedom, "THE RIGHT TO LEAVE".
If you aren't happy here then, Foxtrot Oscar! We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted. Pretty easy really, when you think about it.
-----------------------------------

Get the painting back on the wall........... NO compromise.

TG

[Onan the Clumsy]

because at the time the name 'Nigger' did not have the connotations that sadly it has today.Not sure I would agree with that rather rosy view of history.

And I'm not sure these (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/images/nameslist2.pdf) people (http://www.redtail.org/airmen.html) would either.


Which is not to say that I think the painting should have been removed, because I don't. Rather I think it would serve everyone better if the this matter were to be referenced within its context. Unfortunately though, that's a lot mre difficult to do than to simply react one way or another.

An opportunity missed perhaps?

[SpotterFC]

TSM

Now you know I'm not normally one to agree with you but...

The Mess you were in - it was the new SNCO's Mess was it not (the OM being at Kirton)? The airmen (and officers) also dine there at lunchtime. My question therefore is - was the 'airman' in question actually an 'airman' or were you using the term generically. If the former, what on earth was the CMC thinking?

What's next, a Native American complaining about the ghostly image on Bader's portrait in College Hall because the image is described as being that of a red indian in the visitors guide? (it is Bader's isn't it - I haven't seen it for years).

Spotter

[mystic_meg]

Not sure I would agree with that rather rosy view of history
OK, point taken - but are you seriously suggesting that Gibson's choice of name for his dog was deliberately chosen to offend such people?

[Merlin the Happy Pig]

I understand the passion held within the RAF for it's history. The "never have so few.." quote is one of the most signficant and true of WW2 and as a Brit I am proud of our "finest hour..".

However, some of these threads have turned into nationalistic rants. Let's not forget that our Queen is of German descent and Prince Philip's a Greek. This country has been built on imigration and it's success is down to this - this is well documented too.

The term "Nigger" is offensive, however the portrait is of historical importance and relevance to the squadron it was displayed in. Maybe the RAF should be looking at how it interprets some of the objects and paintings within it's historical collections that are now seen as non-PC. I would suggest that instead of taking the picture down as a knee-jerk reaction the Mess manager should speak to the RAF Museum in Hendon and ask them how they get round displaying aspects of the RAF's history which today may sit uncomfortably with the general pubic.

This isn't political correctness gone mad. If you were in a Mess in another country and saw a portrait of a significant airforce officer with his beloved dog "British Scum" or perhaps "White Bastard" it may make you feel uncomfortable as the white British person there.

It's important that as serving RAF officers you feel proud of your heros and fallen commrades and as someone who's Jewish immigrant Uncle died in a Lancaster over Berlin in WW2 I applaud this whole-heartedly (he was in 8 Squadron).

For the record - the term "Black" isn't offensive. It's one of the Census categories along with "White".

Keeping the Concentration Camps as a memorial to the 6,000,000 who died isn't offensive - it's a reminder and a warning from history, but displaying portraits of Hitler and celebrating Nazism is.

It's about how we interpret/display the past and I mean this in a visual context. It's not about covering it up but being open, honest and prepared to accept that there are differing views, all of which are valid and should be given consideration. Museums are displaying sensitive material all the time. The RAF Museum and the Imperial War Museum are good examples of this.

[Onan the Clumsy]

are you seriously suggesting that Gibson's choice of name for his dog was deliberately chosen to offend such people?
No.



characters added to appease the character count police. "There will be characters in our time".

[WorkingHard]

ZH875 - quite true one cannot have blackboards they are now to be called chalk boards BUT WE STILL HAVE WHITEBOARDS!!!!!!!! how strange. Are we offended now?

[CashMachine]

England - The Right to Leave Our Country - YOU have the right, the right to leave anytime you want!
If you are claiming off the Social Services just cancel your GIRO.

Tarten Giant

I hope you are not a serving member of the armed forces!

One would presume that the person in question was british (regardless of his/her colour) and I would assume not claiming off the social!

IMMIGRANTS, NOT BRITISH, MUST ADAPT. This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this.
But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our National Motto, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great British freedom, "THE RIGHT TO LEAVE".

These statements would seem to come straight from the BNP manifesto.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the Language!

I think if you look into it the English language imported a great many words from those bloody foreigners.

This thread seems to have hit on something a lot deeper and darker. I am shocked to hear some of these statements, especially as a large majority of the people on this forum are serving personnel and officers!!

Yes, you can't (and shouldn't) wipe out history because parts of it you don't agree with or like.....but it was the name of his dog! The dog wasn't the hero, the dog didn't do anything meritous as far as I know (and i'm sure there will be someone who will correct me) apart from wait for his master to come back!

[doubledolphins]

Why is the painting offensive? Is the detail so good that you can read the dogs name on his collar disk? Or is it that W/Cdr Gibson was a known racist, proven by the name he gave to his dog? Whatever next? Will all pictures of Nelson be removed from RN establishments because he was an adulterer and not very fond of the French? Is there stiil a bust of Hitler in the scruffs bar at Bently Priory, I think we should be told!

[Jobza Guddun]

So what would happen if 20 or 30 mess members complained that the removal of the picture was offensive to them and they demanded its reinstatement?

Perhaps the alleged complainant has no idea who this Gibson bloke was and needs a dose of Paul Brickhill coupled with an excellent old film.

Sorry, but inane shat like this, should it be true, really gets my goat. It displays self-indulgence and a total lack of respect for RAF history.

[Footless Halls]

Never having had the privilege of dining at Scampton I've never seen the painting. Anyone got a photo of it to post?
Incidentally, am I still allowed to mention that Montgomery had a cocker spaniel called Hitler, I believe...

[CashMachine]

Jobza Guddun,

The dog was never in the RAF!

I would imagine the dogs name was written underneath the picture, in which case surely just removing the name plaque would have alleviated the situation

[Merlin the Happy Pig]

Cash Machine - a lone voice of reason.

The rest of you - why can't you see that there are two sides to this? Surely the military can't have completely beaten out of you the ability for individual thought or are you all secret journos from the Daily Mail venting your spleen. Or maybe you're all secret undercover BBC reporters trying to reveal latent insitutional racism in the RAF - don't panic Sir Jock - there is still time to deleate this thread before News 24 catches wind of it.

For goodness sake can't you see what you are saying. You are supposed to be officers in the British Armed Forces - that's the 'British Armed Forces', not Oswald Mosely's Black shirts or the BNP. You're here to protect your country and serve your Queen and thank God you do. But Britain is made up of many cultures - we're not all white males - and has been for 1000's of years. The RAF as an organisation is an equal opportunities employer - therefore it rightly has to take on board the views of all it's personnel. In fact the most senior serving Black officer in the British Armed Forces is a very senior RAF officer.

As I said in my previous thread, by talking to other organisations about how they display sensitive material this nationalistic tirade could have been avoided.

Yes, I do find the term in question and not the said dog offensive. With proper interpretation, which takes the views of both sides on board this painting may not have needed to have been taken down.

No I don't read the Guardian. I just have a balanced view of our world.

The ghost of Lord Melchett is alive and well in the RAF - eh Darling?

[Jobza Guddun]

Jobza Guddun,
The dog was never in the RAF!
I would imagine the dogs name was written underneath the picture, in which case surely just removing the name plaque would have alleviated the situation

Of course he wasn't - he was (and is) a well-known PART of RAF history. Should the plaque read "Wg Cdr G P Gibson VC DSO DFC and his dog whose unfortunate name cannot be displayed for fear of offence?

[Beeayeate]

Didn't Gibson name his dog Nigger because it was a dark brown labrador? In days of old nigger brown was the name of a colour just as burnt sienna or crimson lake.

With regard to the painting . . . if the tale is true then it can best be described by the Pink Floyd song - All in all, it's just another brick in the wall.

:(

And surely the word nigger is only offensive if declaimed offensively.

.

[Rakshasa]

Cash Machine, Merlin, I consider myself an eglatarian that means I treat everyone equally regardless of origin or religion. But....


And this is just another aspect of the problem.

It's alright to be proud to be black and complain about percieved racism. (This is considered Equal Opportunities)

Ergo: Black Culture = PC

It's alright to be a devout muslim and complain about certain danish cartoons recently published, (Those cartoon ARE insulting and crass).

Ergo; Islamic culture = PC

YET, It's NOT alright to be english and be proud of it, (You're accused of being nationalist) and complain about political correctness, (You're accused of being racist).

Ergo White culture = NOT PC

See the discrepancy?

I'm all in favour of treating everyone equally (full stop and not a single caveate)

That does mean I also believe in giving white people the ability to complain too, without resorting to slapping labels on them. We're told again and again that 'we' as white nominally christian people, should show tolerance to others.

How about others showing some tolerance to us?

[Archimedes]

The subject matter of the painting cannot, de facto, be racist. It is a portrait of a VC winner and his dog, which happened to be a black labrador.

With the benefit of politically correct hindsight, we can today see that it would have been far better had Gibson chosen a gold labrador. But he didn't. It would have been far better, from today's perspective, if having failed to realise the excoriation the name would attract 60 years on, he'd called the dog 'Blackie' or 'Sooty' or something along those lines. He didn't. It would have been preferable, again from today's perspective, had Gibson not (in a slightly sentimental tribute to his dear friend) chosen his dog's name as the codeword for a successful breaching of the dam.

But he chose a black labrador, called it by a name that is now regarded as racist, and he did choose the name as the code for the breaching of the Mohne Dam.

So the dog is integral to the story, whether we like it or not.

The argument that the portrait itself is intrinsically racist and offensive because Gibson unwittingly chose what is now regarded as an unacceptable word as the name for his dog is bunkum.

Also, as B(I)8 notes, the phrase 'N-brown' was in use generically for the colour dark brown; it was also used to describe a shade of a propreitory brand of shoe polish. Although the etymology had racist connotations, they are far weaker in the case of the naming of the dog.

The RAF Musuem policy on artefacts actually raises the issue of the name, and concludes that it is of micro-historical importance (i.e. it is germane to the context of the historical event), and notes that the dog has assumed an popular emotional and historical significance. (That's from memory, but the gist is accurate)

If the problem is the name plate, then change it.

Removing the dog's name from the plate would not be a shameful piece of revisionism, it would surely be nothing more than recognition that to have the name on display may cause offence, and to cause such offence would be impolite. Not change out of political correctness, but change out of basic courtesy and good manners.

Better yet, omit the name plate entirely. Any new arrival to the mess unable to identify the portrait's subjects could be returned to training to rectify their shameful lack of historical knowledge.

But to remove the picture entirely would be crass. (Again, assuming that the story is true and TSM hasn't been subjected to the most successful wind up in recent history thought up while the mess members await the picture's return from the restorers....)

[Tartan Giant]

Tarten Giant
I hope you are not a serving member of the armed forces!

I don't know what your 'trade' is but you will have to use some initiative lad!
Look at my Public Profile.
How do you normally spell "tartan"?
One would presume that the person in question was british (regardless of his/her colour)
Unless the rules have changed, you MUST be "British" to join HM Forces here. I'm sure I will be corrected if that is not so.
and I would assume not claiming off the social!
The mini 'blast' that I pasted into my post has been around for about a year, and was originaly from an Australian writing down-under; it was obviously spun to the UK standard! They are not all my own words - but I agree with them in general terms.
I think if you look into it the English language imported a great many words from those bloody foreigners.
Fine - but there's no need for this "somebody" to be instrumental in getting that famous painting removed from the Mess wall.
This thread seems to have hit on something a lot deeper and darker. I am shocked to hear some of these statements, especially as a large majority of the people on this forum are serving personnel and officers!!
War is shocking, paintings and "statements" less so.
Are you saying serving personnel and Officers cannot have the gift of free speech? You must be one of the PC brigade? Coffee, one, no milk......... rather than the historic....... coffee, one, black.
Yes, you can't (and shouldn't) wipe out history because parts of it you don't agree with or like.....but it was the name of his dog! The dog wasn't the hero, the dog didn't do anything meritous as far as I know (and i'm sure there will be someone who will correct me) apart from wait for his master to come back!
I think we all know the dog in the painting had very little to do with GG being a hero; it was GG's dog and he named, and in that context the picture was captured for posterity and that's it.
If it were not for GG and his fellow heroes, the clown who was offended might not have been born.
There are many things that offend and they must be put in proportion and sometimes just 'let go'.
It offends me that there's a nude statue of a woman in Trafalgar Square sharing that arena with REAL heroes like Lord Nelson.
All my singular bitching will never get that nude removed. But that one "somebody" gets his way and off the wall comes that famous painting, whilst there is perhaps thousands that don't want that nude statue where it is either but our PC loving dictators ignore good taste!
Freedom of speech and artistic licence for some egh.
TG

[soddim]

A very well thought posting, Archimedes, but why not call a spade a spade.

The dog's name is important - the offended need to accept that reality and accept responsibility for their own unreasonable sensitivity instead of blaming society for our respect of history.

I suspect we will eventually sink under the weight of all this PC bullsh*t and cast aside all our glorious history of triumphs and endeavours lest we offend some halfwit.

[tablet_eraser]

I'm afraid I have to take both sides, to an extent, in this argument.
It has exposed a worrying - not to say racist - trend among some posters to impose a British superculture on immigrants. Now, I do not believe in the policy of multiculturalism; it has diluted and reduced British culture in many ways. The ideal of multiculturalism, however, could have proved more effective at absorbing other cultures.
We have a language that is both Romance and Germanic. Our classical music is based predominantly on French and Italian influences. Our modern music (and much of our pop culture) is based on its American equivalent. By any standard, we are multicultural; why design policies to force such an evolution, when all those policies do is create jealousy and xenophobia? Yes, immigrants should learn to speak English as a first language, because it IS our language; yes, they should learn about our history, both good and bad. Germany doesn't shrink from telling the history of Nazism, nor does it shrink from telling this German side of the Industrial Revolution. Why are we so bothered about teaching "wannabee" British subjects about our history?
We have adapted the best parts of our immigrant cultures. We are the most diverse "melting-pot" in the world. Young people admire black artists for R&B and hip hop as much as they admire white artists for acting and comedy. We are better as a nation that accepts immigrants.
Were we to allow immigrant cultures to "swamp" us (David Blunkett's words, pr00ne, not mine := ), we would be going the wrong way. I say, celebrate the benefits of immigration, since it is a fact. When it becomes a problem, it needs to be sorted out.
I find it hard to justify my objections to the removal of the portrait, since I fear it would link me with some of the more dubious comments here. The simple fact is that when we revise history to suit the present, we are taking a significant step down that Orwellian road to the Ministry of Truth. For God's sake, black, white, asian or otherwise, Christian, Muslim, Sikh or Jew, can't we just accept our differences and enjoy each other's company?
Oops... lapsed into Utopian mode there!

[Onan the Clumsy]

Warning (Status Red) Caption: thread drift.
Unless the rules have changed, you MUST be "British" to join HM Forces here.
Not so with the Seppos though. They have all sorts of foreigners serving. In fact, had I got my permanent residence status before I turned 26, I would have had to sign up for Selective Service, (ie the Draft)

Oddly, women don't have to do this, just men. Gender discrimination enshrined in the law of the land.

Warning: (Status Green)

[beerdrinker]

Is Nigger's Grave still at Scampton and being properly tended? Or has that too succumbed to the PC lobby.I remember being told that there used to be a post (secondary duty) at Scampton - Officer i/c Nigger's Grave.

[eagle 86]

The minorities have the say in the modern world because that's the few that governments and oppositions in Western countries have to influence to win or be sustained in government. Oz Labor party branch stacking for instance.

PS I think it would have been better if Gibson had been a conscientious objector and refused to bomb the dams and drown all those Krauts - sorry Huns no,no sorry squareheads - sh1t I'll get it right soon - Germans!

PPS In the next life I'm coming back as a handicapped, gay member of a minority race.

[Speedpig]

Ah, The Tuskegee Airmen.
From a nation of bigots who thought these guys weren't worthy of cleaning the boots of white pilots but good enough to die for their country.

[CashMachine]

OK

TartAn Giant

Thanks for the condescending remarks. Thought i might hit a nerve!

Yes I did look at your public profile [I]after[I] I posted my comments, perhaps if you looked at mine you would know what trade I am! Not that that has anything to do with the issue!

War is shocking, paintings and "statements" less so.

Yes, thank you for that obvious statement!

You are right, everyone in this country has the right to free speech and long may it continue. As you may know a lot of people (black, white, asian etc) have fought and died defending that right.
BUT, free speech has it's limits. If I were to suggest black people were to only sit at the back of buses or that women shouldn't be allowed the vote would that be alright for you, hey it's free speech and it's part of history. As a responsible member of the Royal Air Force I should not hold those views and I certainly shouldn't express those views.

I fear we're drifting away from the issue here though.

I have to agree with Archimedes comment; Better yet, omit the name plate entirely. Any new arrival to the mess unable to identify the portrait's subjects could be returned to training to rectify their shameful lack of historical knowledge.
Lets face it any officer worth his salt should recognise Guy Gibson and his DOG!

[Northern Circuit]

Sounds like a mission for.....


STH

[ANW]

Mention has already been made of the famous 'Dam Busters' film which reappears from time-to-time on British TV. Some years ago when the PC brigade got involved all scenes relating to Nigger were removed. After many complaints, it is only very recently that the film has reverted to near the original.
Can I ask the PC brigade why is it that in England, the Blacks can and do have a Black Police Union, but the Government will not permit the Whites to have a White Police Union?
Why is it, in certain towns and cities, you cannot fly the English Cross of St. George Flag, in case it offends the immigrants? Many of whom fly their former National Flags even though they are 'British'. Norman Tebbits' cricket match test comes to mind here. For the young ones not familiar with that, I will explain. A cricket match takes place in England: Pakistan versus England; young second and third generation 'British' subjects of Pakistani extraction will invariably support the Pakistani team, even though they were born in England, brought up in the British culture and mostly have never been anywhere near Pakistan. Explain please? Genes?
Sadly an acquaintance of mine passed away last year, one of a dwindling number of members of the Bomber Command Association, who all did their bit in WWII.
I will always remember the statement made by one of them and echoed by many, it went something like this: 'Given the state of this Country (England) I am looking forward to dying soon. Is this what we fought and died for?' - - - - - and I will give you a clue: he wasn't talking about politicians and their gross inadequacies, though indirectly they are responsible.
Just checked a copy of a 1957 (English) Oxford School Dictionary I have, quote:
black, a. of the darkest colour; dark-skinned; wicked, n. black colour; black speck; mourner's clothes; negro. v.t. make black; polish with blacking.
black'amoor, n. negro; black man
negro, n. (negroes; fem. negress), member of black-skinned African race with woolly hair and thick lips.
negroid, a. of partly negro type. [Sp. < L. niger black]
nigger (-g-), n. negro; (of colour) very deep brown. [F. < Sp. NEGRO]
golliwog, n. a doll with black face and woolly hair
Just run this through a spell-checker provided by an American computer giant and NIGGER is there - perhaps someone should complain?
Put the picture and name plate back! Those who don't like it Have the Right to Leave - no one's stopping you! It was, to use someones earlier phrase, 'British Scum' which has given you that freedom to decide.

[Compressorstall]

I have come to this thread rather late, having spent an evening with my multi-cultural friends last night. I sincerely hope that many of the inflammatory posters are not Armed Forces personnel, since I have served loyally to ensure all have the right of freedom and have sometimes fought to ensure that right. History is important and we preserve it so that the lessons may be learned by later generations, but this hackeyed argument over the display of GG's dog's name just serves to highlight prejudice that remains. There have been some incredibly inciteful comments that should be applauded in this post, and others from people who, if they are serving, have learned little along the way.

[FJJP]

O i/c Nigger's Grave was a 617 Sqn secondary duty. The grave was well tended - woe betide the Sqn if a single weed was found by the original dams raid members who were the original 617 Sqn Association members. They had a reunion every 2 years hosted by the Sqn at Scampton. They are a fantastic bunch of guys - they were adept at letting their hair down and putting us at our ease!

As for the reported removal of the painting, the i/c the mess [whichever one it is] and the Staish should tell complainer to grow up, write an essay on the dams raid and get the painting back on the wall pronto.

You cannot re-write history.

It won't be too long before there is a PC backlash [I believe it is starting already] in this country. People in my local pub are sick to death of it, as are many of the minorities who are being tarred with the same 'complaining brigade' brush.

[CashMachine]

ANW

Good quotes from the 1957 Oxford School Dictionary. The thing is, in 1957 black people in America were barred from riding on the front of buses and from going to "white" colleges! The terms "nigger", "wog", "nignog" etc were in general use as derogertory terms for black people.

British Scum' which has given you that freedom to decide.

You seem to have omitted the many thousands of black African, black Caribbeans, Indian and Gurkah troops (to mention a few!) that lost their lives fighting for (our) freedom as well.

[Hilife]

Let’s face it; any officer worth his salt should recognise that Guy Gibson meant no offence 60+ years ago in naming his dog ‘Nigger’.

If true, then this airman has done himself and his fellow brother’s disfavour, and should have duly noted and moved on instead of stirring up the deep routed subject of racism and thereby drawn unwelcomed attention to all ethnic personnel on the station.

Had someone called/referred to this airman as a nigger, then I would standby his grievances, and he should expect to receive an apology or redress. However, if this individual feels so strongly about the innocent naming - so long ago - of a dog belonging to probably the most famous airmen in the RAF’s history, then I would have to question his/her suitability to Armed Forces life.

[BEagle]

"O i/c Nigger's Grave was a 617 Sqn secondary duty. The grave was well tended - woe betide the Sqn if a single weed was found...."

Unlikely to be many weeds, as those of us on 35 Sqn would pee on it - and 27 Sqn's boat spotters probably emptied their colostomy bags over it!

This whole thing always seems to generate huge amounts of hot air. Just remind people that many of attitudes and expressions used 60 years ago differ from those of today. Gibson's dog's name is a matter of historical fact - and even the PC and EO brigade can't change history.

[RTR]

FJJP, you are absolutley right. The Staish should get that picture back up on the wall asap. There are high feelings running here and not without cause, it matters not one iota that some of them are unashamedly homeland based in their views, which is as natural as anyone being born with one coloured skin or another and with the birthright they are entitled to.

Immigrants who have been given the right to live here must accept, like it or not, that our country is our country and we, for the most part, like it the way it is. If they don't like it or us they have the answer in their own hands. But they have to know that that answer is not to tell us what is right or wrong with our culture and our history. Especially our history.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF OUR SOLDIERS SAILORS AND AIRMEN WHO DIED, OR TOOK PART IN TWO WORLD WARS, HAS A RIGHT TO EXPECT RESPECT AND OUR OUR UNDYING MEMORY OF WHAT THEY DID FOR US. It is not negotiable.

Leave our history alone. I like it and I want it kept for for my grandchildren and their grandchildren - to be proud of the country of their birth. Others may indulge also but with respect, since many of these unselfish warriors could possibly be from their own countries. That needs some thought.

Then FJJP said this:

It won't be too long before there is a PC backlash [I believe it is starting already] in this country. People in my local pub are sick to death of it, as are many of the minorities who are being tarred with the same 'complaining brigade' brush.

Get that picture back where it belongs. Tell the 'airman' who thought it was discrimination to get real - and to get stuffed. Enough is enough!

[TacEval Inject]

You ferkin WHAT? This hangover has turned into a nightmare!
PUT IT BACK!
TI

[CashMachine]

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF OUR SOLDIERS SAILORS AND AIRMEN WHO DIED, OR TOOK PART IN TWO WORLD WARS, HAS A RIGHT TO EXPECT RESPECT AND OUR OUR UNDYING MEMORY OF WHAT THEY DID FOR US. It is not negotiable.

Quite right, but we're talking about a dog!!!!!!!!!

It's not even as though it were a "war dog" who was given a medal for gallantry. It was (simply) a dog who waited for his (later to be famous) master to return!

Some comments seem to suggest that this airman who complained was some sort of illegal immigrant and that if he doesn't like it he should p**s off back to his own country! Where do you get that assumption from? He may in fact be more British than you are. The recent series of 'Who do you think you are' has highlighted some typically British people who are in fact only second or third generation. If these people protested about something should they p**s off back to where they came from.

Get a life people, we are talking about the name of the dog not about removing GG from history!

[Amateur Aviator]

So put the picture back.......

[RTR]

Well done CM.

When you take something out of contect as you have done it sometimes makes for an easy answer. Fortunately not in this case.

The picture was removed for one reason only. Because it had the word 'Nigger' on it. Guy Gibson's dog. I am not going to repeat myself but in this case I am happy that something will come from all this and the Staish will get it put back. If it is true of course.

You are entitled to your opinions and I support that. But it don't and won't make you right.

[SirToppamHat]

Firstly, I have no comment about the specific issue being debated here - it is not my Mess and I know nothing of the painting, whether or not it has been removed, and if so why or who was involved.

As for Nigger's Grave, the stone and railings are still in place and were in better condition than the hangar (and offices) last time I looked a couple of weeks ago. Of course whether the dog is actually buried there is the subject of some conjecture...

I am not sure what Northern Circuit was refering to, but if it was a suggestion for a 2ndry duty, NO THANKS.

STH

[RayDarr]

The painting should be replaced.
Incidentally, an old Vulcan mate told me that "the dog" has had it's grave moved at least 3 times to his knowledge to various parts of Scampton. Also while we all know where "the dog" is buried, what about it's erstwhile owner. Guy Gibson, was a VC, and dead before his 27th birthday having been shot down in a Mossie while acting as a Master Bomber. Question is, how many of you history and heritage folks know where he is buried, or how well his grave is tended?
On 19 September 1944 a plane crashed near Steenbergen, Holland. On board, though this was not known at the time, was Wing Commander Guy Gibson, VC, DSO, DFC. With him was Squadron Leader J.B. Warwick, DFC, who was identified because of a gold wedding ring found at the site.

The two bodies were buried in Steenbergen cemetery with a simple wooden cross marking the grave. The inscription read:
156612 J. B. WARWICK
AND UNKNOWN SOLDIER
19 - 9 -1944
When Steenbergen was liberated in November 1944 details of the crash were passed to the Identification Squad, along with the engine number of the plane. In February 1945 the name of Guy Gibson was added to the cross.

In September 1967 Jan van den Driesschen was reading to his young son from a youth magazine. In it was a story about Guy Gibson and Jan was astonished to learn that Gibson was buried not far away. He and his wife visited the cemetery and found the grave – overgrown, and in an appalling state of disrepair - and decided there and then to look after the graves for as long as they were able.
In 1974 Eve Gibson read in an English newspaper that Jan and his wife had for some time been tending her husband’s grave. They met, became close friends and when Jan decided to write his book he asked Eve Gibson for an insight into the character of Guy Gibson.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Spotter,

I regret to say that I understand the person concerned is, allegedly, a SNCO, infact a very SNCO (but not a WO yet) and so I find it even more astonishning that someone with so much time in the service would take such a point of view. I would have hoped that he was old enough and wise enough to have been a bit more adult ands sensible about the matter.
I wholeheartedly agree with nearly everythiing that has been said here, but I find the saddest thing is that (presumably) the CMC and O i/c have been prepared to allow its removal. 'Tis little wonder the RAF is in such a state when history can be removed and locked in a cupboard because someone finds a dogs name offensive, God help us!
I notice that, despite another thread on this forum about Scampton, there is a distinct lack of Scampton voices here, and no one has either denied or confirmed my original rumour. Are you all under instructions from someone NOT to comment? Please can someone from Scampton clarify things???
Kind regards to all
TSM
'Caruthers, lets all raise a glass to Guy and to NIGGER, a damned dog!'

[Archimedes]

While speaking of the doggie, I believe that he had a few operations under his collar (he certainly had several hours on Lancs). OT, but - when the unit had Venturas, the then CO of 21 Sqn's dog was KIA alongside his master.

[SirToppamHat]

Swinging Monkey
I notice that, despite another thread on this forum about Scampton, there is a distinct lack of Scampton voices here, and no one has either denied or confirmed my original rumour. Are you all under instructions from someone NOT to comment? Please can someone from Scampton clarify things???

I first saw this thread on Friday evening. You may get more of a response next week once people have had a chance to see the thread. Many of those who live in the SNCOs' Mess are weekly boarders, and will probably want to establish the facts themselves before commenting - if they comment at all.

STH

[ZH875]

Just to remind the complainant:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/ZH875/P7100434.jpg

Note to Complainant: RE-READ THE TOPMOST LINE.

[PPRuNe Pop]

The thread has descended into a battle of prams and toys - an unsavoury slanging match which we do not allow on PPRuNe. Please keep to the topic.

There seems more to come on the subject after the weekend.

PPP

[Northern Circuit]

Firstly, I have no comment about the specific issue being debated here - it is not my Mess and I know nothing of the painting, whether or not it has been removed, and if so why or who was involved.
As for Nigger's Grave, the stone and railings are still in place and were in better condition than the hangar (and offices) last time I looked a couple of weeks ago. Of course whether the dog is actually buried there is the subject of some conjecture...
I am not sure what Northern Circuit was refering to, but if it was a suggestion for a 2ndry duty, NO THANKS.
STH

woz jest on about finding out the facts - edit didnt know which mess sorry

NS

[Jackonicko]

"Immigrants who have been given the right to live here must accept, like it or not, that our country is our country and we, for the most part, like it the way it is. If they don't like it or us they have the answer in their own hands. But they have to know that that answer is not to tell us what is right or wrong with our culture and our history. Especially our history."

How about white Brits who are uncomfortable with aspects of our culture and history?

How about those coloured immigrants who settled here after fighting for us? Or the relatives of those coloured immigrants who died fighting for us? Many Jamaicans, Africans, Indians (Hindu, Moslem and Sikh), and even Palestinians laid down their lives for us.

And isn't the whole point about this sceptred Isle that it is supposed to be adaptable, flexible, sensitive and welcoming, adapting to incorporate successive waves of immigration? Do we really want to 'make a stand' and draw a line over our rights to use offensive language?

I doubt they'd mind about the painting over-much, but they do have a right to do so, and it would only be polite and respectful to pay attention to complaints like this particular SNCO's. I'm sure that some British compromise can be arrived at, even if it's modifying the caption to read "Wing Commander Gibson and his faithful dog, then named 'Nigger'.

[Onan the Clumsy]

There are other animals with notable service records. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/853839.stm)

[eagle 86]

Jackonicko,
I hope that when "these" people finally take over the running of your sceptred Isle they are as considerate of your wishes as you are of theirs - the track record is not good!
GAGS
E86

[kms901]

Last time i watched the movie, the dog was there, but it's name had been (poorly) re-dubbed as "Nipper". We can't change history,so we shouldn't try and hide these things. Much better to leave it alone and explain how thing's have changed.

[Michael Edic]

It is my understanding that messes are run along pseudo-democratic lines. At the next mess meeting call a vote. If more members want the painting removed than want to keep it remove it, if more members want it kept then keep it. Why simply because this issue has some connection with race do all the rules have to go out the window?
I can't remember who said it and I don't want to reread the thread but the comment about believing in equality, no caveats is in my opinion spot on. It would I think remove the worrying increase in popularity for the far right without which the bigots who are integral to the running of such organisations would have no power base and will hopeully fade away. Am I oversimplifying things and being hopelessly optomistic?

[FJJP]

WRONG! Whilst the messes are run along democratic lines, this is most definitely NOT a subject that would be put to a vote - that would be like all the mess members having a vote on calling all black men 'niggers'. If the majority voted 'for', then thereafter it would be the rule. You cannot contravene any military or civil law or procedure just because you are effectively a private club.

The only way for this to be resolved is for the station Executive to decide whether or not the painting is racially offensive. The will be much consultation with EO people, no doubt at a very high level, before the Staish announces his final decision.

Like everything else administrative in this gutless Air Force, he'll probably be forced to roll over and allow the fluffy huggy brigade to have their way - as usual.

[Michael Edic]

But there is no law being contravened. What the dog's name was is an irrefutable historical fact. There is no intention to be offensive that's perhaps the key difference witht eh scenario that FJJP outlines.

[JessTheDog]

If the dog had been given a different name or had not been run over, none of this would be an issue.

However, we are where we are....

It's not the "N-word" name of the dog that is offensive, it is the fact that the same word has been used millions of times to abuse people somehow perceived as of lesser value.

Most of us will feel some faint embarrasment whenever this anachronistic subject is raised as we can see all sides of the argument. However, there are those who either wish to use the dog's name as a bizarre and slightly sinister rallying cry for all that is perceived to be British, and there are also those who wish to rewrite history and probably exhume the dog as well.

I prefer the majority position, and surely some civilised solution can be developed, perhaps by rehanging the painting and by omitting the dog's name. We are supposed to be polite and considerate of the feelings of others, after all.

[The Gorilla]

Jess

Yes we are supposed to be polite and consider the feelings of others but the pendulum has swung to far the other way. Consider if some cartoons of Jesus had offended me at Christmas, and there were many about, and should I have staged a protest outside a Catholic church with others holding banners inciting others to kill non-Christians I would have been arrested and charged. So how come it's ok for some sections of our community to stand outside Mosques doing exactly that whilst a benevolent and smiling police force look on??

I was once in a briefing when a nutty professor from Qinetiq used the "N" word as in the woodpile example. I was of course sat next to a colleague who was coloured. He and I and several others took offence to the statement and he made his feelings well known. Actually I really wished at that moment that I really hadn’t been there!! The Prof apologised of course but the damage was done and my colleague took the matter further.

As for the painting and the dog, I believe that my colleague from that briefing WOULD find it offensive and in that case if he objected someone would get it in the neck for sure. That’s life!

:ok:

[tablet_eraser]

The "us and them" arguments are totally redundant in this thread, and I have been embarassed to read some of them. This SNCO is a serving member of the RAF and is, by any standards, one of "us". If he has a complaint he has a right for it to be heard every bit as much as everyone else has a right to disagree. You might think that the painting should stay - I do - but don't reduce this to the sort of proto-xenophobic arguments better left to a BNP forum.

[FFP]

I've spent some time thinking of what Nigger would say of all this......

The injustice, the PC gone mad, the removal of the painting, his right to be remembered as part of the service and it's history.

What we would give just to have him back for a few moments, to defend himself and make his case ? I can picture it now, all the RAF top brass present, along with a couple of holding officers to serve the drinks, as the latest technology brings him back to life. What, indeed, would he say ?


:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:


Probably "Woof", p1$$ and $h!t in the corner and slobber over CAS, and p!ss again on the holdy as he cleaned up the mess.

[Flap62]

Slightly off topic but following

The Prof apologised of course but the damage was done and my colleague took the matter further.
,
I cannot help but think that it's sad that what was, I'm sure, an unintentional, (if unacceptable), slip of the tongue could not be resolved by an immediate apology. Are we really slipping so far down the American path that everyone must have their pound of flesh?

Edited for appalling tooping

[The Gorilla]

Flap 62

He refused to accept the public apology and refused to shake hands and yes it was unintentional.

Tablet

How typical that any one who should want to discuss the us and them, or the changing face of religion or how many immigrants we have today is always branded a racist of BNP proportions.

The end of free speech..:mad:

[Hilife]

An emotive issue for sure and there are truths on both sides of the argument, but where do you draw the line?

Are we no longer to use the term ‘subordinate rank’, heaven forbid that someone should be referred to as lesser or inferior in these modern PC times.

Should we also remove the word 'slave' from all hydraulic schematics, how about we tear out all the pages in the mess library that contain words that could be offensive to others, where will it all end?

[BEagle]

I really don't like the way this thread is heading..... Something of the BNP about it, I regret to opine...

Honestly chaps, the only way ahead is to convince the mate who took such offence to view the whole thing in its historical context. Such as letting him know that although the Slobrador's name was considered an affectionate term for a loyal friend over half a century ago, nowadays the RAF wouldn't dream of countenancing such a thing...

Look towards the positive, don't just make silly points about a word which is completely unacceptable in present day usage.

Apart from which, I understand that Gibbo's dog was actually rather a pain in the ar$e for many at the time!

[2Old2Care]

Agree with Onan here.

It probably didn't occur to Gibson or his white schoolboy friends that the dog's name was offensive, because of the unconcious racism of the time. But the word was derogative even in the 1940 era, intended to signify a lower form of humanity (hence its habitual use in C19th century British India, and in the United States for very much longer).

Was the problem the picture itself, or the caption?

And you have to ask yourself whether the complainant was responding to the picture per se, or the ongoing culture they have faced during their career?

[soddim]

A typical example of the cultural clashes of today is the nomenclature of certain parts of the Tornado in Saudi manuals. For example, it is not acceptable to refer to the 'cross-drive clutch'. It is instead called the 'X-drive clutch'. Similar problem with the fuel cross-feed.

However, those items were named relatively recently and are not significant to the history of anything in particular so why not change the name for a paying customer.

However, don't leave any pork pies in the map case!

[maccer82]

If the historical reference of GG's dog is considered racist by the PC crowd, surely the teaching in schools of the slave trade and the treating of other races upto the civil rights movement and various other parts of history should be treated the same? Ignoring history is not going to teach us anything!

[The Gorilla]

And today I read that yet another PC idiot who passes for a headmistress (can I say that?) has banned Hot Cross buns from her school lest we upset non christians.

Where the hell is this all going to end??
:mad:

[SASless]

Hilife.....

Oh dear friend...that has already happened. Please to remember a Black Woman named Hazel O'Leary who at one time was the Secretary of Energy for our Beloved Bill Clinton. She was the dear lady who had a staffer dedicated to haulling about an Esky containing chilled bottles of High Brow bottled water.

At a nuke site which shall remain nameless...just south of Aiken, South Carolina....she made a grand visit and during a briefing where-in the control board for a nuclear system was being made. She held up the royal hand and stopped the briefer....to inquire what this wee label on the board bearing the words "slave pump for mixer six" ,or some such thing, meant? When informed of the technical reason for having said device...she stopped the briefer a second time....and said she did not care about that...what she was disturbed about was the racially insulting tone of such signs.

You guessed it...upon her return to the palace in DC...imperial decree...change all the labels, signs, posters, notes, technical manuals, etc for the entire DOE. Think there was a bit of cost, labor, and disruption to work efforts getting that done?:mad:

[teeteringhead]

... and where exactly does it leave Mark twain's Huck Finn. The escaped slave Jim regularly refers to himself with the N-word..... Do we ban the book or change the words? Either prospect seems pretty scary to me ... Didn't someone say that those who start by burning books finish by burning people...

Quite simply we cannot apply the rules of 2006 to what was done/written/created in another era - what next? I know - we've all heard tell of "starving-ten-year-olds-hanged-in-England-for-stealing-a-loaf-of-bread" ... Let's give 'em all a posthumous pardon!

Well the PC industry is trying it for soldiers executed in WWI so why not?? Just remember ... you heard it here first.....:(

[Compressorstall]

I hope that the Daily Mail isn't having a slow news day. Whilst this site exists for us to post our views, there are viewpoints coming up here which are not in keeping with what we are expected to do. Yes, PC-ness can be a pain, yes - some people fail to grasp the original intent behind being PC and it can turn them into insensitive pedants, but as military aircrew we have to stand in the middle and defend our nation as a whole. All this thread is doing is giving ammunition to those who see us as some right-wing organisation. Can we just get back to complaining about JHC, the Army or something traditional?

[whiz]

I regret to say that I understand the person concerned is, allegedly, a SNCO, infact a very SNCO (but not a WO yet) and so I find it even more astonishning that someone with so much time in the service would take such a point of view. I would have hoped that he was old enough and wise enough to have been a bit more adult ands sensible about the matter.


Has he just had redundancy ? :p

[tablet_eraser]

Here, here, Compressorstall. Some of the comments here do us no justice.

[Champagne Anyone?]

Maybe this is the perfect time to close this thread in order to prevent any further racial insults being thrown around.





And we still haven't found out if the painting has actually been removed....

[The Swinging Monkey]

Compressor stall,
I'm not sure I agree entirely with all your comments. Yes, some of the comments here are a little strong, but it just shows how PC gone mad (as in this case) is obviously a highly emotive topic.
I am happy for the thread to close if you so wish, but I am also concious of the lack of response from anyone at Scampton which, sadly, suggests that this particular rumour is true.
Whilst I do not agree with some of the extreme views written here, in the main I do agree that this is an unacceptable standard for the RAF to decend to, and only adds weight to the comments about spineless leaders caving in whenever things get just a little 'awkward'.

I will keep my eyes open next time I go to the mess and report back if the painting reappears.

Kind regards to all who have taken the time to respond - I think the overwhelming feeling is that Nigger needs to be back on show for all to see.
TSM

[jimgriff]

When the Dam Busters was edited to remove the dogs name the editor forgot to remove the morse code message that the dams had been breached. There it was in big broad code N-I-G-G-E-R!:eek: :} :8

Oh how we larfed!!!!!

[FJJP]

There is a lot of chat and speculation about this case without us having heard any definitive detail.

It would be useful if someone from Scampton could post the facts of the situation. For example, I don't know the present mess structure [it's probably all changes since Beags and I were there]. Precise knowledge of the occurance would perhaps allow a more positive debate - many of us are making assumptions and talking from a platform of ignorance [of the facts].

So could a Scamptonite please give us the true story and the subsequent happenings?

[airborne_artist]

So could a Scamptonite please give us the true story and the subsequent happenings?
I think you'll find they are Scamptonians (Eton - Etonians etc...) :D

[WD 1]

I am a resident Scamptonian and while the story may, or may not be true I am sure the discussions will continue as to the rights and wrongs. However, whatever the true version of events I am extremely concerned that a fellow Mess member has betrayed his status by revealing events within the Mess. An old adage remains - 'What happens in the mess, stays in the mess'. The individual involved in the revelation, whether true or not, needs educating in the qualities and integrity expected of his rank!!!
Ar**hole

[Speedpig]

'What happens in the mess, stays in the mess'
I wonder why? I dread to think of some of the things that might happen in the mess that need to be kept secret.
I think the subject of Gibson's dog's disappearance is not exactly breaking any rules of the secret brethren and certainly does not warrant the abusive term used by WD1. How PC is that?

[PPRuNe Pop]

There seems to be a definite desire to see the thread closed because of the continuance of racial overtones. I have seen worse but I think it might be a good idea. So...........I will close it but leave the door open for anyone who wishes to start another thread on the basis that real facts have emerged about the painting's removal or not.

PPP