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got caught
2nd Feb 2006, 13:03
Sample questions from my daughters sample test paper:

In each of the following questions, the words are given a code. You are given the first word and its code. Using the same rules, you need to work out either the second word or the second code as stated in the question.
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Example: if the code for LEARNT is KDZQMS what is the code for CENTRE?
Answer: BDMSQD
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q1: If the code for OUTSIDE is MRPNCWW, what does YINZUWQ mean?
A) READY B)ALRIGHT C)ALREADY D)DIRECT E)READER
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
q2: If the code for CATCH is DCWGM what does GTHWM mean?
a) GRAVE B)FRAME C) FRETS D)FAITH E)FRESH
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q3): If the code for EVEN is JAJS what is the code for SELF?
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I didn't get it, she didn't get it, do you ?

Onan the Clumsy
2nd Feb 2006, 13:12
Come on. It's piss easy :E

Simple substitution code. I don't have time to look at the rest but for EVEN to JAJS, add on 5 letters E + 5 = J, V + 5 = A (modulo the alphabet) and N + 5 = S, therefore slide the letters of EVEN five to right right gives you JAJS, so SELF would be XJQK

Simple really :8

The gigantic clue was using EVEN with two Es In fact that's how they finally broke the Enigma code

Q2 is a little more interesting CATCH ==> DCWGM C+1 = D, A+2 = C, T+3 = W, C+4 = G, H+5 = M

sir
2nd Feb 2006, 13:13
yeah - that's easy.

It's a ROT13 style code - you just add the offset between the letters in the enciphered word to get the plaintext.

The offset may be the same for all the letters, or may be the position of the enciphered letter in the coded word (q2)

The offset may also be negative.

eg :

q3): If the code for EVEN is JAJS what is the code for SELF?

To get from CODE to PLAINTEXT :
To get from E to J you advance 5 letters.
To get from V to A you advance 5 letters (after Z wrap back to A)
...

So SELF you need to go back 5 letters for each plaintext letter to get the coded letter.

- EDIT : yeah what you said Onan ! - q2 is slightly kinkier though.

G-CPTN
2nd Feb 2006, 13:16
When I sat the 11+ in 1955, there was a long passage to read, after which we were required to continue the story below. My neighbour spent his time writing a fair copy of the given text . . .
I was unable to tell poor Jimmy that he was DOOMED, I tell you, DOOMED . . .


I see we have employees of BDKZ contributing to this list. button moon is obviously code for cheltenham . . .

ShyTorque
2nd Feb 2006, 13:20
A1) = C

A2) = E

A3) = X J Q K

BTW, I correctly drew a line from the teddy bear's right ear to the left arm of the doll.

flybhx
2nd Feb 2006, 13:21
I can do it but it took me a while. Seems a bit ott for a youngster.

Q2 is easier by cheating W=T M=H

only one answer with TH at the end:ok:

G-CPTN
2nd Feb 2006, 13:25
Seems a bit ott for a youngster.

It depends what they've been coached to expect. At the same time that I sat 11+ (and passed) I also sat the common entrance exam for local private schools. The questions were way beyond anything that I'd seen before (but I hadn't had coaching).

got caught
2nd Feb 2006, 13:42
Cheers chaps, easy when you know how !

Stand by for more fick father fodder. (and I passed).

Do you reckon coaching works ?

Gouabafla
2nd Feb 2006, 13:52
It was easy, dead easy. But...

I'm quite badly dyslexic and have real trouble spelling, but I do see patterns of numbers and letters very clearly. When I took the 11+ it was all tests of this nature and I flew through it without any trouble. At the same time, I was generally close to the bottom of the class because I couldn't do the normal classwork stuff. This pattern continued all through senior school, I was near the bottom for termwork, but come exam time, when there was lots of problem solving and memory work, I did very well.

Onan the Clumsy
2nd Feb 2006, 14:03
I have to concur with Gouabafla that I too perceive the world as a series of patterns. I am oblivious to many things, but I can spot a misaligned rooftile from 50 yards :ugh:

One down side of this is that I often stare at women's chests and they rarely believe me when I say I am counting the buttons, though one girl was happy to learn she wasn't the only one who did this.

I never got coached for the 11plus, but to me it was an entertaining puzzle game and not a test. Fortunately for me, when I applied myself at least, I was always top of the class. However I am totally lacking in "Street Sense" and would probably immediately end up as someone's wife were I unfortunate enough to end up in prison :( Or worse still, teaching primary school :uhoh: :ouch:


I still wonder what good the 11 plus was, though I do believe in streaming.

frostbite
2nd Feb 2006, 14:57
"counting the buttons" - thanks for that, I'll give it a try!

Farmer 1
2nd Feb 2006, 15:00
PPRuNe can be a most educational website. I've learned two things from this thread alone - the Enigma code was broken when they started spelling EVEN with two E's, and I now have the perfect excuse for staring at women's chests.

Onan, I'm for ever in your debt.

Onan the Clumsy
2nd Feb 2006, 15:09
Trust me, it's a real reason and not necessarily an acceptable one. :(


Not so much with ze Germans sending the word EVEN through Ultra, but what they did do was send a signal to (or was it from?) the same ship twice in the same day which gave a seed for working out the eventual code.

===

couldn't find the ref I was looking for, bit I did find this from wikipedia (note a character cannot be encrypted into itself) In one instance an operator was asked to send a test message, and simply hit the T key repeatedly and sent the resulting letters. A British analyst received from the intercept (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercept) stations a long message without a single T in it, and immediately realised what had happened.

G-CPTN
2nd Feb 2006, 15:19
Do you reckon coaching works ?

IF your child is being taught correctly, (and is responsive) then coaching is un-necessary. IF (as was my case with the 'common entrance exam') the school is not covering the curriculum adequately (the private feeder-schools obviously taught the type of subject from which the exam questions were drawn) then coaching is ESSENTIAL. You can teach relatively young children calculus, but if they've never been taught then they don't stand a chance. The same applies to codes and encryption - or any subject. Try your child with £ s d and see how they get on!
If the 11+ is FAIR it will encompass questions from the core curriculum of the feeder schools (and maybe some 'general knowledge' questions).

G-CPTN
2nd Feb 2006, 15:22
"counting the buttons" - thanks for that, I'll give it a try!

Do you include the two either side of centre?

Especially with sweaters . . .

Farmer 1
2nd Feb 2006, 15:25
Yes, I've read the books, Onan. An incredible bunch of chaps and chapesses, who were credited with shortening the war by two years. How many millions of lives did they save? How many more atom bombs would have been dropped?

Must remember the button routine, though.

got caught
2nd Feb 2006, 16:44
Yeh, not sure if its that fair.

Having said that, I thought I'd have a go at coaching her myself. As you said, common sense tells me that repeatedly having a go at a style of queestioning, raises the likelihood of her succeeding.

Shame the coach is a bit dumb!:uhoh:

and can't spell.

G-CPTN
2nd Feb 2006, 16:47
I thought I'd have a go at coaching her myself. As you said, common sense tells me that repeatedly having a go at a style of queestioning, raises the likelihood of her succeeding.


Get some past or sample papers, then if she gets the answers wrong, belt the living daylights out of her. Worked for me :{

Melliandra
2nd Feb 2006, 16:50
Coaching isn't a good idea for 11+, at the end of the day if they struggle with that they'll struggle in the school they're placed. There were a lot of people like that at my school.

Have no fear though, kids taking the 11+ should be taught to expect questions like that, and if they have trouble but are good in other areas they should get into the school anyway.

Prime example.... I hated codes with a passion so left two pages blank on my verbal reasoning paper. I got 100% in my maths paper though, so they had to let me in.

Onan the Clumsy
2nd Feb 2006, 17:26
I hated codes with a passion ... I got 100% in my maths pape
:confused:

that seems a little ...contradictory

Rick Storm
2nd Feb 2006, 17:54
There is no german word spelt 'even' the german for 'even' is.....

gleichmäßig
Rick :rolleyes:

Onan the Clumsy
2nd Feb 2006, 17:59
...after encoding, but that's what made it so difficult to break :}

Grayfly
2nd Feb 2006, 19:17
11 + what??:}

Davaar
2nd Feb 2006, 19:24
Gleichmäßig so, the chaps worked it out, so glatt wie Katis Bein

tall and tasty
2nd Feb 2006, 19:32
To answer the original question - yes I did, had to or I was left in the Junior school for all eternity! What a horrid thought. :{ :\

But the pattern is a logical one on the original questions and once it is worked out it is easy.:hmm:

Don't think I would want to go back and sit the O's and A' and S levels I sat when I did, now!! I would not get anywhere near the marks I aquired on the original exams!:p

TnT:cool:

airship
2nd Feb 2006, 19:44
If they're teaching 11 year olds about codes, does it mean we might be going to war with Germany again soon?

Onan the Clumsy
2nd Feb 2006, 19:52
We're ALWAYS at war with Germany :E

tart1
2nd Feb 2006, 22:22
Did anyone pass the 11+??

Yes I did. Didn't do me much good though as my girls' grammar school turned into a mixed school after 3 years, when I was 15. After many years of single-sex education, to be suddenly thrown in with the opposite sex was a great shock and surprise.

Not unpleasant, but I didn't do any work at all for my 'O' levels. Too busy getting off with members of the opposite sex and sending notes to them and deciding who to go to the disco on Saturday with, etc, etc.

I attained reasonable grades but nothing like the ones I could have got if I had still been in a girls' grammar school. Had fun though!! :ok: :ok:

airship
2nd Feb 2006, 22:25
Is 'getting off' used as a code phrase here?! ;)

G-CPTN
2nd Feb 2006, 22:32
We used to call it having it off . . . :E :ok:

agentprovocateur
2nd Feb 2006, 22:44
"Having said that, I thought I'd have a go at coaching her myself. As you said, common sense tells me that repeatedly having a go at a style of queestioning, raises the likelihood of her succeeding."

That's exactly what you need. As with virtually any examination, practice shows what 's required and gives the confidence to have a go even with the apparently most difficult question. Also, nowadays, examiners tend to reward for even a partially right answer although I can't speak definitively for the 11+.

Years ago it used to be possible to buy books of practice papers for the 11+ - have you checked some of the educational publishers on the Net to see what's available?

Hope this helps.

airship
2nd Feb 2006, 22:46
I think I must have been a late developer. Back then, I was still getting used to the saddle on my first proper Halfords racing bike... :sad:

treadigraph
2nd Feb 2006, 22:53
Can't be arsed, yes I did, didn't you? Total bollocks, University of Life (AKA Dog and Bull) taught me all I nned to know. Whose round is it any way? Who's? Did you learn that at 11? Bastard!

Loose rivets
3rd Feb 2006, 06:54
It will come as no surprise to all my readers, that I failed my 11+. School for me was a chore. However, I was an imaginative child and set about an essay about two pets, a cat and a dog, going on a train to the seaside.

Splicking the ink into more or less orderly blots, I gave my characters two very different levels of class. The cat was a sophisticat ho ho, and the dog was...well, a little bit common. It was a good idea.

However............I started off with the dogs detailed questions about the ocean. He used a rather theatrical gor-blimy speak, and I rambled on and on in this canine East-enders dialog, until someone said, "Pens down...NOW!"

But...but...I haven't done the posh cat bit yet!!!! Butit was too late. Doomed indeed.

Onan the Clumsy
3rd Feb 2006, 12:16
I think I must have been a late developer. Back then, I was still getting used to the saddle on my first proper Halfords racing bike
You must indeed have been. Back then I was getting used to the saddle on the bike of the girl next door :E

tart1
3rd Feb 2006, 15:12
Airship, the quaint phrase 'getting off with' was what we girls used to do with boys when I was 15.

It involved nothing more than kissing, cuddling and the occasional naughty grope of breast.

More innocent times than now, I think. :)

airship
3rd Feb 2006, 15:43
That settles it. I did miss out. All this time I thought that when they disappeared behind the bike sheds it was only to exchange 'I love you' notes and hold hands. :{ Which was why I always preferred to go off on my bike. :{ :{ :{

I want to sue someone! :mad: I'd sue me parents only they're not worth much and I'll get what's left one day anyway. Hmmm, perhaps I should try and get hold of a few school yearbooks and see if anyone's become really rich in the meantime... ;)

Jesting aside, since I never kissed or otherwise groped a 15 year old back then, would anyone be very upset if I tried to do that now, 30 years on? Please, pretty please?! :( :uhoh:

Ad astra per aspera
3rd Feb 2006, 16:58
Yes I did, but I only got a chance to sit it because I lived in greener lands with the finest education system in the Kingdom (soon to be dismantled by our beloved Government).

Long term it worked for me, but initially I landed up at a Grammar school & thought I'd made it (aged only 11!). The first 2 years were spent playing much rugby, throwing things at the girls on the bus (still the enemy then) & generally having a good time at the expense of grades. :}

Then - SHOCK HORROR - it became apparent that I might need to work to stay there & maybe get a decent job :( . When the penny dropped I was in the right environment to do well and the GCSEs / A-Levels & Degree later showed I could given that I had the right teachers there to turn me around. Without the 11+ to put me there, things could have turned out rather differently!

There is a smile which comes to my face when I see how the education system has effectively come full circle with these new reforms, which I can see leading to more widespread selection at a local level, leading to calls for the revolutionary idea of introducing some sort of a national standard for a secondary school selection criteria for all children to sit...sounds familiar, but time will tell. :hmm:

Aspera

tart1
3rd Feb 2006, 16:58
We only used to go behind the bike sheds to smoke cigarettes - or something. :cool:

Actually, at my grammar school, there was an air raid shelter to go behind/into - even better than the bike shed! :O

agentprovocateur
3rd Feb 2006, 21:37
That settles it. I did miss out.
Me too. Went to an all-girls school and I don't recall there being any bike sheds. :)

LGS6753
4th Feb 2006, 11:31
The 11+ was a classic 'intelligence test' designed to identify someone's IQ. I passed it in 1963. Coaching would be non-productive under these circumstances. The idea of the sequencing questions is to make the test what I believe is now called 'culture neutral'. It also shouldn't matter if you are dyslexic - in fact people with dyslexia are often highly intelligent.

LGS6753
4th Feb 2006, 11:38
Tart1 - check your PMs

sixmilehighclub
4th Feb 2006, 13:17
I need a HPPE TFFJOH UP
:E

agentprovocateur
4th Feb 2006, 17:39
I don't entirely agree LGS6753.
Success in most examinations is knowing how to go about finding the answer and then being able to answer in the time allotted. As I said earlier, practising will greatly help with confidence - a major factor for many people in examinations.
As for dyslexia - it depends on the degree to which a pupil is affected and how well he/she has been prepared. Extra time is usually given.
Education has changed greatly in 40 years - the original question relates to current examinations. Those of us who passed the original 11+ may not be playing on the same playing field :)
got caught
google threw up the following site and there are some free downloads you might like to have a look at.
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/