KQ advert for 737 FO's.

[kotakota]

Just seen an advert on www.flightinternationaljobs.com placed by Sigmar Aviation looking for F/O's with experience on 737 Efis to join Kenya Airways on contract (Tax paid ).
Go to it you lucky devils.

[nostep737]

Just got e-mailed from Sigmar after applying 3 months ago, $6300 US a month including accom allowance 3 year contract I'm thinking am I a lucky Devil?

[frogone]

Is it only for the -300. I take it from the ad they are not looking for -700 drivers? So can I assume KQ are keeping the -300 for another 3 yrs?

IR

[Spydee]

FYI-KQ owns all their -300's (4) and no plans to get rid of them yet.

[kotakota]

Congrats NOSTEP . If the accom allowance is indeed on top of the $6300 , then it is a good deal. If you are single and want to share ,it will only cost about $400 pm for a flat. You will need about 8-10000 USD for some wheels. Armed with a 3 year contract I am sure banks will lend you the money.
Join the Aero Club at Wilson Airport for good company , beer and food.They also have accomodation if you need to start somewhere. Website is www.aeroclubea.net .
I gather that KQ have 3 -800's on order , so I guess you will be on NG's too , just starting on 300's initially. I know the current crew are dual-rated.
They obviously want to have Kenya nationals on the Flight Deck , so enjoy the contract while you can.
oh to be 30 again !!

[despegue]

Accomodation is included in the mentionned salary.
salary paid is 5100 usd, and there is 1200$ housing allowance.

[Kenuck]

Just be aware folks that our union is going to fight this tooth and nail seeing that there are plenty of eligible Kenyan pilots looking for work...it looks like it's going to get nasty.

Please be careful before signing up - you might find yourself nothing....

[kotakota]

Very sad to find such a bare-faced threat on this thread. I hope you are referring to the company when you threaten a fight ? Should any new-joiner to KQ suffer any harm I am sure this will be remembered and a trace will be made. Being nasty to people on flight decks is also very unprofessional and dangerous.
It is not fair to take it out on anybody lucky enough to find employment with KQ.You cannot blame someone for trying to put dinner on the table.
I agree that Kenya citizens should come first and that you must campaign for their employment vigorously.However , KQ is entirely within their rights to crew their aircraft by the cheapest/fastest method available to them and their shareholders.'Privatisation' is what has saved KQ and turned it into the success it now indoubtedly is.Turning back the clock to the bad old 'Corporation' days with 'jobs for the boys and hang the cost 'will add to the number of Kenyans on the unemployed list.
Perhaps you could calm down and come up with an alternative solution without reverting to the 'stick'.
How about trying to organise some sort of bonding arrangement for Kenyans to become type-rated on the 737 ie a 5 year freeze on type after joining/obtaining 737 rating ? Or whatabout agreeing to one Direct Entry pilot ( who, after all , will only be on a 2-3 year contract) for every type-rating offered ? This would give KQ some security and stability.
The airline must be allowed to expand without draconian costs.At the moment Direct Entry recruitment seems to be the best way.
By the way , what has happened to the 737 crews from Region air ? Are they still around ? Type-rated with 737 endorsements and experience ?
If you come up with some constructive ideas and present them to management you might be pleasantly surprised. Be progressive.
Good luck , and please try and moderate your approach to this problem. Kenyans are normally remembered for their smiling friendly faces. Let it remain so.

[Kenuck]

Hello,

I'm afraid that my post was mis-interpreted and was not a threat in any way.

I intended to just warn my colleagues here on PPrune about what is going on in Nairobi. The union does not support the recruitment action taken by the company. It's not that they are going to fight recruits, it's the company that they are going to take on. Let me give you a clearer insight into some of the issues.

1) There are many Kenyan nationals that are available and eligible for the job including the many 737 type rated ex-Regional Air chaps that you mentioned. In spite of repeated pressure by the union, the company is unwilling to hire these pilots. The reason is that when a Kenyan national is hired they are done so on a permanent basis not on a contract. A permanent employee to KQ joins the seniority system and is also unionisable. The company seems to be inclined to hire contract pilots that can not be placed on the seniority system and are taken advantage of. One only needs to look as far as the 737-200 pilots who were hired years ago on a contractual basis and are still stuck on that fleet in the same seat with nothing to look forward to. In fact they were all told that they are going home this year as the airplanes are being sold off.

2) The pay issue is a very thorny one. A Kenyan F/O on the 737-300 does not get anywhere close to the $6300 that is being promised. I do not believe that this is the right forum to get into the specifics of what KQ pilots recieve, suffice to say that $6300 is a figure seen in the captain pay scales not F/Os.

I find it insulting that you choose to respond to a serious issue in a petty and personal way. I posted with the intention of perhaps saving someone a lot of agony. Imagine someone being promised the world when joining KQ, that person now serves notice at his current employer only to find out that the KQ job is not coming through. As an example, early last year, KQ advertised for pilots from the Greater East African region - none have been hired to this day.

You said "Perhaps you could calm down and come up with an alternative solution without reverting to the 'stick'.", let me assure you that the solutions are there and have been tabled - the company chooses not to listen.

You speak of threats - it seems that the first couple of lines of your post are threatening.

As you attacked on a personal rather than professional note let me respond to you personally and tell you what it is that I think and not what the official line is. I do not have anything against the company hiring non-nationals. In fact, I believe that it would be somewhat refreshing. Also, I am excited by the pay package that is being promised to these non-nationals - it gives us mainstream pilots alot of ammunition to fight for the same level of remuneration. I have personal reservations, namely I believe that if KQ does hire more non-nationals they should be placed onto the seniority system and not restricted to any fleet and seat. I have many friends that fly the 737-200 and their morale is not good.

Lastly, I believe that, in the spirit of professionalism, rather than insulting people and organisations that you may or may not know much about, you should just ask questions and wait for answers.

Thanks.
:)

[kotakota]

Nice attempt to counterattack ! If you reread your original offering it would be hard to say that it does not seem threatening ! You have now clarified your position , pity you didn't say what you meant the 1st time.
Anyway , thanks for the info , it all makes much more sense now .Why on earth would KQ refuse to employ Regionalair crew -is it the 'permanent' position that put them off ? Is your HR Recruitment department playing on a level playing field ?
Anyway , good luck and thanks for clarifying the issue.

[Kenuck]

KQ is a very interesting place to work. By having a strong pilot union with non-contract employees means that we, as a pilot body, have managed to push through a lot of things. Things like safety issues, duty times etc etc. Obviously there's always the issue of money which will always come up. The HR dept has been trying to push the issues of contracts - by having them the union becomes diluted and the eventually dies. That's what happened to our cabin crew who are now all on contracts and have no organisation and thus get shafted all the time.

Finally, it was not my intention to insult anyone by my first post. I did not think that it would be taken as a "threat" of any kind.

Thanks
:ok:

[nostep737]

Well you guys KQGUY and the union have done well, suddenly the the recruiting people dont want to know us - well you guys lose , Now go out and train all the locals within two months,now the company cant buy the new A/C because they have no one to fly them so the locals cant be upgraded to fly the new A/C so its a lose lose for you guys but its alll right I go and fly somewhere else. I was coming to Kenya not for the money, not to take peoples jobs, but to go to the one of the last places on earth were you can find real wildness just outside youre back door but I can get that in Asia as well. Just Remember 10% of 0 is 0

[kichwa tembo]

nostep,

i don't think the attitude of your reply is appropriate. especially given that KQguy was trying to put things in context.

What has happened is probably due to union pressure on both the company and the recruitment agency. I understand that the government through various ministries is also in the picture.

the pilots and tghe union are not completely ignorant as you seem to suggest. they are fully aware of the benefits of expansion and will never bite the hands that feed them.

The so called pilot drought at KQ was caused by a shortsighted and simply ignorant human resource department and suspect recruitment policies. Did you know that many of the Regional pilots were rejected and some didn't even get an interview. Strange considering that they fly the same aeroplanes, same routes and operate to the same standard as KQ on their 737-200's?They, in my opinion should have walked into the jobs- which by the way are held by ex-pats' who came for six months and ended up staying for almost eight years!!Funny also that some of the regional guys we rejected are now working for emirates airline.

What the union is doing is trying to get the company to consider the many pilots we have in Kenya before they resort to ex-pats. and it should be the last resort as in any other country!

It's also curious that the ad from sigma did not ask for the many academic qualifications that was asked of thew Kenyans. Did they ask about your high school qualifications, are they as stringent as the Kenyan education system?

Its a long story nostep. the union is strong and i can assure it is the reason our pilots thought of working for KQ in the first place! I can't give the whole history in one reply, but I assure you the union is completely in order and the company's expansion will not be stifled!

[williewalsh]

Kichwa,
Just what relevance do gcses have on hiring a professional pilot on a contract. Cadet, or career postions may carry educational requirements, but you demonstrate a village mentality that is the scourge of kenyan aviation. Besides, you show me any qualification in Kenya and I'll give you the address of who you can buy it off. From nursery school to atpl

[skytango1]

Nostep737.As much as we have wildlife who gave you the impression that we have "WILD ANIMAILS " In our "BACK YARDS". Not very polite that was.Kenya is a very beautiful country and i personally take that, as NOT A VERY GOOD Thing to say about our beloved country.All the best though and hope to see you on line one day.

skytango1 cheers happy landings all!!

[vagabond 47]

[quote=kotakota]Very sad to find such a bare-faced threat on this thread. I hope you are referring to the company when you threaten a fight ? Should any new-joiner to KQ suffer any harm ?????????


Hey,
All you KQBOY bashers wake up and disseminate your own diatribe and see who is RUDE and THREATENING.Man made a reasonable argument in support of his case.
Legacy Airline I work for on CONTRACT pays same good salary to Locals as foreign contractors.
Now KQ HOW ABOUT THAT R/H SEAT JOB FOR ME?

GOT........Kenya ATPL
GOT........B738 TRE
GOT........Kilifi Creek Property
GOT........Sailing Boat
........Love Tusker/ Hate Govts Amboselli Desires.


WHAT MORE YOU WANT?

CHEERS--Hic.

[kichwa tembo]

willie!

gald you could join us, but please read thread carefully before posting.

That way you would have realised that i actually am in agreement with you. what i'm trying to say is that the reason there is this artificial shortage at KQ, is that they reject many good pilots because of their high school scores!

what the union is telling KQ is that these are not important! and that if they are going to hire ex-pats., they must put them through the same crap that they dish out to the Kenyans! Anything less would be discrimination! Hopefully then they will see the folly of their hiring methods.

I personally would recommend a well rounded screening process where high time, or jet time or instruction time makes up for lower academic scores.

[kotakota]

Hey Vagabond , sounds like you are enjoying a few Tuskers as you type !!
I think if you look back through this thread you will find that KQboy and myself sorted out our differences arising from the perceived 'tone' of his original post and got down to some sensible discussions about what the problems are when it comes to KQ recruiting. I , personally , have learnt a great deal about what is going on down there through this thread.
All I hope is that it can be sorted out amicably and that KQ can continue its expansion and that all Kenya citizens get a fair chance at being recruited.

[Kenuck]

So, it looks like the storm clouds are building out here now.:uhoh:

The CEO states in the local papers that he is going to sign 40 expats from Europe this week. The Union says to go ahead - he'll sign 40 expats but have 200+ local pilots sitting at home and the aircraft grounded. Very little dialogue, at the moment, between the two.

This won't end well.... :(

[406pilot]

hi there kq guy,

it never did start right for it to end in a bad way...

just wondering apart from myself and a few other guys from tz did any east africans get called ? even for an inretview atleast ? now i know my high school papers were no that desirable but wht has that got to do with my flying skills? still im sure my other partners were in fact better in high school but one wonders if the advert was just a gimmick to satisfy the political propaganda...

keep it up there fellows,

no more 406pilot

[Kenuck]

Hi,
Well, it's quite funny....today KQ issued a statement to the press saying that they never said that they were going to hire expats:confused: I guess this comes after the Central Organisation of Trade Unions (COTU) backed our union up. So, the MD has an interesting decision to make: hire 40 "europeans" and have the ground the airline and get other trade unions in the country walking off the job in support to pressure the government to put a stop to this nonsense.
To my knowledge, no East African was interviewed. Seems the Sigmar guys were going after type rated europeans.
I imagine we haven't seen the last of this matter.

[gen3]

KQGUY, I can understand where you are coming from. We faced the same situation in our airline sometime ago and from the experience gained there, I will suggest that your union use the proposed hiring to work for the good of its members, i.e. get those at the bottom promoted, those who need upgrades should be given that as well so whoever is hired will fill in whatever positions are left, if any.

I don't think that after the hiring, KQ's home pilots will get the same salary as those who are hired. It doesn't happen. (you are local, the hired guy may be from outside Kenya and must be housed and provided with certain facilities, eg, relocation allowances, etc. which you won't get..) Maybe a percentage increment shall be put on the local salaries - NOT the full hog.

I know your union is strong and you have some very good leadership and I suggest that you use these to your advantage as well as the airline's success. You wouldn't want KQ to close down now, will you? As long as KQ is operating and operating properly, you have a guaranteed job. You never know what's to happen tomorrow and perhaps, you just may find yourself wearing the other shoe. Not a good thing to happen, believe me.

Nevertheless, I wish you all the best in arriving at an agreement with Management.

cheers! :ok:

[Jamborjp]

hey guys,
can anyone help with info on how to get in with KQ...I am a Kenyan Citizen with a FAA CPL/IR/ME and CFI/CFII/MEI with 1000TT currently working as a Flight Instructor in the USA. Does KQ still want the pilot to convert the certificates or is there a way around it now??

[Spydee]

Jamborjp,

There is no shortcut. KQ planes are "5Y" registered and not "N" therefore your US license cannot get you a place in the right seat. However you may convert your US CPL into a Kenyan one by taking a composite paper and then an IR flight test. However, If you come back with an ATPL all you have to do is an airlaw exam and an IR test.

I suggest you come home immediately and start on the conversion process which has improved considerably from a few years ago. It will take you about three to six months to be done. Remember to take the perfomance A and gas turbine exams which are optional but are a requirement if you intend to fly anything bigger than a piston engined aircraft in Kenya. Goodluck!

[Jamborjp]

Spydee

Thanks for the feed back....I have a few more questions???
I kindda know about the conversion process in Kenya....I checked on it after I was done with my training which was about 3yrs ago. With an ATPL is the whole conversion process acclerated??? U mentioned things have changed.....do u mean all the paperwork is processed much faster and do u still do your conversion at Wilson....at Kenya School of Flying??? I had 4buddies who came back Home with FAA CPL's and it took them 10mts average to finish up the conversion and spend about Kshs 500,000...is all that the same???

[green kangaroo]

:confused: :mad: :eek: :{

[Kenuck]

You seem to be unhappy about something? Would you care to share please?

Cheers

[lone Falcon]

Hey 406 Buddy,

I dont think we Tz dudes stand a chance with our 732 ratings. If Regional Air guys were not considered, our resumes are probably long thrown in the Trash !

Good luck to those trying for KQ!

LF

[captabcd]

Hi guys. Things have gone quiet. What is going on? Has a decision been made?
Need to know, since I can get a loan here in Europe and do a type rating. Do you think I should do the 737 or 767? Need to do this quick so I can get there, build my time and then get a job back in Europe or the Middle East. :E