Bombardier Cancels C Series

[Red Mud]

Strong rumours with a press release starting to surface stating that Bombardier has cancelled the C Series for lack of a launch customer. Too bad. Looked like it was going to be a great aircraft for the next twenty years.

[akerosid]

Bombardier is now looking to work with Sukhoi and its RRJ. This news is certainly good for Embraer, since it looks like its 170-195 series will have the market to itself; the C series is the second potential major competitor (the first being the Dornier 728/928 series) to have dropped out of the market.

Bombardier is, however, going to look at a stretch of the CRJ-900 series.

The proposed 130 (of the C series) seater was going up against a pretty crowded market, even though it was larger than the EMB-195. The 130 seat market is still in the 737/320 zone; it would have faced quite a herculean task to gain a foothold there.

[rotornut]

Latest news:

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh70298_2006-01-31_16-58-32_n31384203_newsml

[Ace Rimmer]

Actually, methinks this is dejavu all over again for Bombardier...anybody else remember the BRJ-X? Thiswas their 'big' RJ program before the C-series which got 'postponed' until everybody forgot about it... then a few years after that along comes the C (too little too late) series.

It seems to me that the boys from Brazil have got this segment sewn up(which they have ever since the 728/928 bit the dust). Can't see the punters going for a 900 stretch when there are all those 'big' aeroplane 190 and 195s around.
Interesting that they are looking at a Q400 stretch (Q500?) that's going to be one lonnnngggg puppy. Any Q4 drivers care to comment on a 10 foot extentsion?
That said the Q400 is the only product in the portfolio that has had a production rate increase in recent years so maybe there is some mileage in that idea let's hear it for props!:ok:

[Kerosene Kraut]

Sad decision but no surprise after the no new engine switch.
They certainly can finetune and stretch their current product line still a bit. But they'd need some real own future program. Otherwise what could they do after the CRJs? Just be the local RRJ dealer?

[TDK mk2]

Perhaps they could apply some Q400 technologies to the 200 and 300 to rejuvenate those lines. Seems that turboprops are finally coming back in vogue and seeing ATR updated their offerings a few years back they'll be well positioned for the 50 - 70 seat market.

As Akerosid says the upper end of the C-series market is crowded and the lower end probably provides marginal economics so perhaps there is only room for one player, i.e. Embraer.

[Willie Everlearn]

Who's kidding who? :eek:

Embraer isn't selling 170s like there's no tomorrow. So, I'm not sure they have the market sewn up as some imply. Besides, the 900/750 economics are better than the 170. But with so many American carriers in Ch. 11, who's going to buy the C Series, let alone the 170 series?

I wonder. :confused:

[Ace Rimmer]

The 170s may not be selling well in the US Willie but it's the 190 and 195s that are the ones to watch. Jet Blue have got about 90 odd 190s on firm backlog plus another 100 options. The types also seem to be selling well in Asia and India both markets growing like Topsy. Back in the US, I've aslo heard a rumour that a certain luv-ly airline is also talking to Mauricio's merry men...

[KTM 525 SX]

TDK Mk2
- All BACON Dash 8s are Q300 s
So the Q technology has been on the go for some time - as they are all pretty old.

[mutt]

Willie, is this based on your own personal economic assessment or did you just listen to the Bombardier sales team?
Besides, the 900/750 economics are better than the 170

Having spent a long time dealing with both manufacturers, I know which one i would prefer to enter in to a long term relationship with.... and they are not based in Canada!

Mutt

[MarkD]

The Q100s are rebadged DH8s. The Q200/300 are DH8-200/300 with Noise Suppression, still with PW127s. The Q400 has NVS, PW150s and 360kts quoted max speed. see www.q400.com

BBD will apparently firm an LOI for another 10 tomorrow.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=209246

[maxrpm]

Interesting that they are looking at a Q400 stretch (Q500?) that's going to be one lonnnngggg puppy. Any Q4 drivers care to comment on a 10 foot extentsion?
:ok:

No Problem with the engine. PW150 has been derated from 8000hp to 5000hp for the Q400. Propably would need a bit more wingspan.

[Grunf]

Hello all.

Just a note:

C Series IS (or better WAS) BRJ-X. The only thing that is different is that BRJ-X was supposed to be made of a combination of advanced materials (aluminum-lithium; glare; composites) while C Series is all-metal.

IF you want to go cheap there is no way to be cheaper then Brazilians since their labor force will always be cheaper. Plus their currency is cheaper, as well.

That does not mean Northwest will not go with a possible 900 stretch. Which is, at least from my (say engineering) point of view total nonsense. But it is certifiable and if there is interest in it, well, no matter how does it look it will go through. On the other hand 170,175,190 and 195 are not selling the way EMB expected (and forecasted).

They need some time to prove operationally good (which they are) so it is just the question of time and market conditions.

I do not se RRJ as a valid competition at least not in North America. Russians are making it primarily for their own market as do Chinese with ARJ 21.

Speaking about turboprop upgrades or new derivatives of the existing RJ fleet it is time for some people in Bombardier's strategy team to figure out that composites are the only way to go further. I hope they will put their effort in that direction, starting with business jets.

Cheers

[rotornut]

POSTED ON 15/02/06
AEROSPACE

Bombardier still sees hope for new jet

Aircraft maker posts 2.4-per-cent increase in annual deliveries
BERTRAND MAROTTE

MONTREAL -- Bombardier Inc. is still keen on the potential for a new jet in the upper end of the regional jet market, with the possible revival of the iced C Series as soon as next year, company officials say.

Montreal-based Bombardier, the world's third largest maker of commercial aircraft, continues to "look at new opportunities in the upper end of the regional aircraft market," Pierre Beaudoin, head of the aerospace division, said after the company posted a 2.4-per-cent increase in its aircraft deliveries in the fiscal year ended Jan. 31, 2006.

Bombardier spokesman John Paul Macdonald said the company may be in a position as early as next year to bring back its 110- to 130-seat passenger jet -- known as the C Series -- as key potential customers, such as Northwest Airlines Corp., emerge from bankruptcy protection and seek to replace their aging planes.

At the end of last month, when Bombardier shelved its $2.1-billion (U.S.) C Series project for lack of launch customers, Mr. Beaudoin said the company will spend about $20-million on a downsized C Series program this year and then decide by the end of the year whether to continue or kill the new jet idea.

Bombardier is exploring other options, like a stretched version of its 86-seat CRJ900 and a bigger turboprop in the Q series.

"We are harvesting the fruit of many years of investment in the development of innovative aircraft platforms," Mr. Beaudoin, president and chief operating officer of Bombardier Aerospace, said in a statement. "We are the leader in the 20- to 90-seat segment and continue to look at new opportunities in the upper end of the regional aircraft market."

The C Series jet had been in the works for two years and cost the company -- which is struggling with a prolonged downturn in the U.S. airline industry -- more than $100-million so far.

The founding Bombardier family, led by chairman and chief executive officer Laurent Beaudoin, had pinned its hopes on the C Series leading it once again into the forefront of the market, where it has been losing ground to Brazilian archrival Embraer SA.

Yesterday, Bombardier said it delivered 337 aircraft in fiscal 2006, up slightly from 329 deliveries the previous year. In the business segment, it delivered 186 aircraft, a 45-per-cent increase from 128 deliveries.

Bombardier's business jets range from the tiny Learjet 40 to the long-range Bombardier Global 5000.

The company said 90 of the business aircraft delivered in fiscal 2006 were from its latest line of models: Global Express XRS, Global 5000, Challenger 300 and Learjet 40 XR.

Those results were offset by a drop in regional jet deliveries -- to 149 from 200 the previous year.

GLOBEANDMAIL.COM

[Maude Charlee]

No Problem with the engine. PW150 has been derated from 8000hp to 5000hp for the Q400. Propably would need a bit more wingspan.

Close, but not quite. Derated from around 6400hp (emergency overtravel) to 4700hp (ish) for normal ops. The 400 is massively overpowered already, so you're making a quite reasonable assumption the current powerplant is adequate for a stretch.

Stretch would be interesting, but not too challenging. I barely have enough hours on type to need my socks and shoes off to add them up, but no problems handling the beastie - it seems to have attained an urban legend level of difficulty to land. It's actually quite a sweetie. Plenty of scope to ramp a stretch up to 100 seats, as even in 78 seat config, the 400 still quite roomy for the 6 footer.

[tilewood]

MaudeCharlee Dash8-500

Wouldn't the rotation and flare on take off and landing become rather critical
with a 10' fuselage extension?

[AlphaCharlie]

Yeah it would probaby a complete main gear redesign ... as you said massive risk of tailstrike ... but that would only be if you stretched the fuselage aft of the current wing position. You also enter problems with the cill height of the rear doors etc if they still want to avoid having slides on board.

[Maude Charlee]

Depends where the stretch is made, and as AC points out, what they do to the main gear. The 400 has a significantly taller gear arrangement than the rest of the family, and has a tail strike risk at approximately the same angle as the 300. The performance of the 400 is such that there is very little risk of a tail strike on rotation, and you have to be pretty ham fisted or unlucky to get one on landing as the angle is around 8-9 degrees. That's pretty nose high.