QANTAS crew face wait for hotel ruling

[Redstone]

Sydney Morning Herald
January 31, 2006 - 9:44PM

Qantas cabin crew, who claim they have been exposed to drug deals and violence at their Los Angeles hotel, must wait at least four months before they find out whether the airline is required to move them to another location.

The Australian Industrial Relations Commission (AIRC) has been hearing a dispute lodged by the Flight Attendants Association of Australia (FAAA) on behalf of Qantas cabin crew who are required to stay at the Westin Bonaventure Hotel in Los Angeles.

Qantas relocated its flight crew to the hotel in downtown Los Angeles in March last year and currently uses about 250 rooms per night.

But the FAAA claimed the hotel's location exposed staff to threats to their personal safety.

It told the AIRC the area was "rampant with drug dealers and intimidating locals" and some cabin crew had been physically assaulted, had experienced threats of assault, witnessed drug dealing and taking, and been subject to harassment and intimidation.

In one incident, a female flight attendant recounted how she was "absolutely terrified" after being victimised on a bus with sexually explicit threats including: "I'm going to give you venereal disease".

Qantas, which did not dispute any of the claims, said it had now made arrangements so crew could be escorted by hotel staff to nearby shops.

The airline also said that according to the Los Angeles Police Department the crime rate in the downtown area had fallen in recent years.

In his judgment on the matter, AIRC Commissioner Frank Raffaelli said the seriousness of some of the incidents recounted by cabin crew raised the question whether the airline was contravening its enterprise bargaining agreement requirements to provide a "high security standard" for staff.

"I do not think it appropriate to provide a quick fix by either making findings that would force Qantas to move location, or to dismiss FAAA's concerns when it has provided instances of troubling events," he said in his judgment.

"In these circumstances, I propose that a four-month period be established during which the situation can be further monitored."

© 2006 AAP

[5miles]

250 rooms per night.


Surely that's a typo....otherwise why don't they just buy a hotel.

[Dizzy Armand]

Send 'em down to Compton. That will sort 'em. :sad:

[Johhny Utah]

250 rooms per night would be right - after all, there are 7 (I think) flights per day to Los ANgeles out of Sydney/Melbourne/Brisbane/Auckland, each with 4 tech crew & 15 cabin crew. 19 x 7 = 133. Bear in mind that there are a large number of LA slips that include more than one night, and also the fact that some slips have crew arriving at ~8am & then departing the hotel at ~10 pm the following evening, and you can quite easily see how the requirement is now ~250 rooms per night.

Dizzy - Compton is about 3 stops away on the Long Beach line (subway)...

There's an interesting article on police efforts to clean up Skidrow here (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-crime6jan06,1,6687331.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-california&ctrack=1&cset=true):
Crime was down across the city, but Bratton acknowledged that the LAPD still has work to do to improve some pockets such as downtown's skid row, where a fifth of the city's narcotics arrests were made in 2005. The area has a crime rate of 128 per 1,000 residents.
Although skid row is unlikely to become the draw that Times Square is, there are similarities. The drop in crime in Times Square coincided with a major redevelopment effort that brought Disney and other major corporate names to the once-seedy area. In L.A., the blocks around skid row are undergoing a revitalization, with lofts and high-end condos rising and two major shopping districts planned — one on Bunker Hill, the other near Staples Center.
[NB: Bunker Hill is 2 blocks in one direction from the hotel, while the Staples Centre is about 10 blocks in the other direction - thereby placing the hotel firmly in the 'skid row' district mentioned in the article]

Some downtown activists are encouraged by the LAPD's efforts and note that despite the improvements downtown, skid row remains a major problem. In recent months, revelations that hospitals and outside police agencies dump homeless people in the area have lead to a criminal probe of medical facilities and demands for change from political leaders.


Travel Wiki (http://wikitravel.org) also has a few interesting things to say about Safety in Los Angeles (http://wikitravel.org/en/Los_Angeles_County#Stay_safe):
There are some areas in Los Angeles County that are considered to be less safe than others. The cities between Downtown Los Angeles and the Port of San Pedro are collectively known as South Central, notorious for the Watts Riots in the 1960s, the Los Angeles Riots in the 1990s and made infamous by many gangster rap songs. The area is roughly bounded on the east and west by the 110 and 710 Freeways although areas immediately outside of those boundaries may also be a bit rough around the edges as well. While one can generally travel safely in these areas, travellers should be wary, especially of gang activity and try to avoid the area after dark.

The area east of Downtown L.A., aka East L.A., also has a higher crime rate than other areas and has gang problems as well.

[Sunfish]

Downtown LA is a hole. I've stayed at the Bonaventure as well. I once walked from Chinatown back towards the hotel and a police car stopped and gave me a lift, telling me I was "crazy" to be walking in that nieghbourhood.

Why not just buy a motel somewhere up in Santa Monica?

[Avid Aviator]

2000 per week was the figure quoted by Company sources when re-locating downtown. Most LA slips are 2 (hotel) nights; add NY crews and ad-hoc stuff to Johhny U's figures above and you need at least that many!
QF claim that's the reason they can't accomodate everyone at Pasadena or anywhere else decent.

[Keg]

C'mon Sunny, you know the answer to that. Buying a hotel means a truck load of cash NOW and less oulay over the longer term. We all know what impact that has on bonuses for the incumbents. They don't want some manager five years down the track getting the benefit of their decision making now. :E

[surfside6]

The hotel is fine.It is just a matter of adapting.
If we win we will probably be moved to Anaheim or the airport.
Then there will really be screams of protest.
Better the Devil you know.

[Johhny Utah]

Hey - don't get me wrong, the hotel is much better than being at Anaheim, or Long Beach for that matter. I don't have a problem with it to any great extent, nor do most of the crew who stay there who can summon up enough initiative to get on the bus/train & get out of there, and go somewhere else outside the immediate environs of downtown LA.

I just wanted to get in before we had a flurry of "boo hoo :{ How hard can staying in a 4 star hotel be?" style responses. Make of it what you will. :ok:

The reason outwardly for moving to the hotel was to consolidate transport. Thh financial reasons were a saving per room, per night, of something in the order of USD$22 if the rumours are correct - which equates to $5500 per night, or $38,500 per week, or just over $2m per year. PLUS the saving from 'consolidating transport' (of course) :rolleyes:

Then again, perhaps we should all vote to move somewhere else to save the company money. After all, enough people voted to send new hire S/O's to Singapore for a significant cost saving :yuk: :mad:

[cartexchange]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that hotel.
The area is Central to all kinds of transport.
The hosties simply don't want to catch a "bus", its too far to get their nails done or to the mall.
It astounds me the Little knowledge they have of the downtown area and what is available to them.
The only concession I will give is that it "seems" unsafe to move around at night, but then when we were at Pasadena you never saw them anyway, they would go up to Gelsen's and buy a BBQ chicken and stuff themselves in their rooms.
I like the misadventure and I Hope that we stay there, you watch the screams and the howls from the hosties if we have to stay at Anaheim.
This is not to blame the FAAA but why did they take this to the commission, there are far more important issues going on at the moment:rolleyes:

[Sunfish]

True, there is nothing wrong with the hotel there is everything wrong with the location of the hotel. I would have thought Santa Monica, even hollywood fer chrisake would be quicker and simpler.

[argusmoon]

There are not many hotels that can provide 250 rooms every night 365 days a year.
Certainly none in Hollywood or Santa Monica for chrisake.
Certainly not at that(QF) room rate

[cartexchange]

honestly sunfish its really not that bad, there is a lot of hysteria surrounding it.
Most of the blokes like it, its the chicks, they are too far away from "the gap" and the air conditioned mall.
I think QF management should do a survey, Bonaventure or Anaheim!
Anyway the only fault I can find with it is that some rooms are noisy.

[xer]

Latest news is that The Miss Adventure want Qantas out. They have been given approval to build self-contained apartments in about half of the hotel rooms with renovations about to start. Pasadena is out as Virgin Atlantic have moved into our old rooms at The Sheraton. It can only get worse before it will get better. XER

[surfside6]

:uhoh: :uhoh: Here comes Anaheim....but hey it is safe.
Wonderful place if you like a long drive from the LAX Airport and sound of screaming children:uhoh:

[Ex QF]

I'm not ex crew but as an ex staff member who travelled on duty I can say that some of the old hotels were not that bad. But who picks them?

Surely the most logical thing to do would be to 'go to tender'
- requirements
nnn rooms per night,
pool & gym,
lock up facility for crew equipment such as bikes, etc
x K's from airport,
x minutes from airport,
safe location, etc, etc, etc

A tender to provide this worldwide with say the biggest hotel group in the world (Inter-Continental Hotel Grp) would give you some good hotels, such as: Inter-Continental, Crown Plaza, Holiday Inn, etc, etc and surely there's the better ones (Inter-Cont & Crown Plaza) everywhere QF flies to?
Crowne Plaza Time Square (saw Lufthansa crew checking in there last year), Crown Plaza Redondo Beach (saw JAL & BA crew there).

:)

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Ex QF, not really sure what your point is - that's exactly what they do. Well, they may not openly advertise for tenders but they certainly go to hotels and say, "what's your deal for the following".

But it all comes down to price - what price Qantas is prepared to pay. And they will compromise on certain parts of that tender list, if necessary, to get the price down. Eg, you''ll get a pretty hotel all right, with a gym, but in a really dodgy part of town. Eg, Bonadventure.

Mate, years ago Qantas crew stayed at the Crowne Plaza Redondo Beach, but some non flying, "doesn't affect me" person calculated they could save $x mil per year so the crew were shuffled out. It was a brilliant location but "too good for crew."

Surprise, surprise, with accom at such a premium in LA, within a microsecond British Airways had stepped into the void created at Rendondo.

If Qantas was genuinely prepared to pay an appropriate price to ensure crews have a "home away from home" in a secure location, there'd be no problem. And I'm not advocating 5 stars, please note - just something that "equates" to a standard of living back home. That includes a safe location.

[Keg]

A tender to provide this worldwide with say the biggest hotel group in the world (Inter-Continental Hotel Grp) would give you some good hotels...

In most cases, the groups that run the hotels aren't actually the owners. As a quick example, the Sofitel in Melbourne isn't owned by Sofitel, they just manage it on behalf of the real owners. Probably 8/10 hotels are managed this way. This is why it is difficult to get a deal that says we'll stay in a Crowne Plaza in every city we fly to.

Additionally, there are numerous times when a brand of hotel in one city will be entirely unacceptable in the next. Novotel in Bangkok was great....not so flash in Brisbane (VERY noisy!).

Ron and Edna are spot on the money though. Most of us aren't after the pure 'five stars' (the fact we stay at the Holiday Inn at Narita is testament to THAT!) but we are after somewhere safe where we can lead some semblance of a 'normal' life!

[xer]

Where we end up next be sure to buy some realestate in the new area. It seems Qantas sends us to a slightly scummy area and a few years later, it is great place and on the up and up. XER

[BlueEagle]

I used to stay at either the Marriot or the Hilton in Torrence, easy walk to Redondo, huge mall, fairly secure area, good supermarket and a few good eating places etc. etc. Have QF thought about either of these?

[speedbirdhouse]

We have stayed at both over the years as an overflow from The Sheraton Redondo beach [Ah.. the memories of happier days at the rat....].

Room availability and cost are probably the issues........

Plus, why would QF want happy staff ?
We are the enemy, remember..........

[Johhny Utah]

Biscuit chucker - I guess you won't be having a very exciting time then...:uhoh:

Why not try getting on a bus & going to The Grove (nah, maybe too far - it stops on the corner of the block the hotel is on.) Costco - nope, too far - the bus picks you up about 3 blocks away, and drops you right at the door. Pasadena - I guess not, as the train station is all of 4 blocks away (and then again, for $3 your all day pass will ONLY get you up to Pasadena & back, as well as unlimited bus/train travel...)

Think about it :rolleyes:

I'm not going to argue with you wrt crew safety, as I entirely agree. However it's a bit much to complain without even stepping out of the hotel... :zzz:

[Robot]

Walked to Broadway - seedy looking (old business district) but no threat.
Waited 20 mins for my bus. All sorts of humanity off & on the bus, 50 min journey to my Golf Shop thru all sorts of areas & same back - but no problems at all. Of course this is no guarantee that it will always be the same, but it was really no problem.

[cartexchange]

of course you get homeless people, of course the bus goes through some poor areas.
So what is the problem, none!
lets worry about important things like the quality of our crew rest, the unreasonable requests that the new visitors make on us whilst they line their pockets with our blood and sweat.

[Bolty McBolt]

I am sure hotel accommodation for CC is a valid concern which this thread addressed but i think the point Redstone was trying to make was the a Union took a perceived SAFTEY issue to the AIRC.
The commissioner has decided to sit on the fence for 4 months so that a dossier of assaults injuries etc can be presented at a later date to see if QF has a case to answer for.
It would appear that commissioner has put cost over the safety of people.
In these enlightened times it would appear a contradiction to anything work cover or QF and its no its No injuries to anyone at anytime policy stands for.
The fact that the FAAA took the issue to the AIRC would indicate the issue was valid ( but some posts in this thread may suggest FAAA crying wolf) and its abhorrent that a unsafe condition can go unchecked for such a time.

[jetjockey7]

Have you been to San Francisco lately?
There are more panhandlers and homeless people than in LAX.
It will be interesting to see which hotel and area we will be acommodated.
Certainly not the Mark Hopkins.
May be the Hilton on O'farrell?

[*Lancer*]

While Downtown is not nearly as good as Pasadena, or Long Beach, or Redondo, or London, or Singapore (although that could be disputed! ;) ) etc, I've felt just as safe walking around there at night on my own as I have through Perth, or Cairns, or Darwin...

[argusmoon]

What type of pistol licence do you have?:confused:

[drshmoo]

Pasadena had the yard bar and it was safe for shire softies like TL to stagger home at the end of a long night but threat of reprisals

[lowerlobe]

Lancer....

You have to be kidding us..

[CaptainToBe]

Last time I was in LAX I was with *Lancer* and have to agree that at no time was I concerned for my safety.

[jetjockey7]

So you (Lancer)weren't walking the streets of downtown LAX after dark on your own.
No wonder you felt safe...you had a bodyguard:CaptainToby

[*Lancer*]

I don't have my bodyguard everytime! :)

Pistol licences can be collected from Guthries Joburg... might perk up your confidence a bit!

Do you really think Anaheim will be that much better?

[lowerlobe]

This is what amazes me about the scare mongerers…There is absolutely no way that Down Town LA is safe.That is a load of rubbish that certain crew are saying because they like the proximity to the nightclubs compared to Pasadena and other areas.

I have even been asked for money from some street bum in the lift going back to my room from the crew room.I was not particularly worried by him but if one of the girls had gotten into the lift it may have been different.
I wanted to know how he got into the lift ? So much for security

To say that it is no more dangerous than Cairns or Perth just goes to show how ridiculous their argument is.

I have asked some LA police about the safety of Downtown and I was told by them not to walk around after dark alone and not to catch any buses as well and if I wanted to go anywhere to catch a cab or hire a car….brilliant…why would they want to exaggerate any problems?..

The next scare tactic is the Anaheim potential…Who ever said that there are only 2 hotels in the area that we can stay at? It is just a scare tactic to prevent anyone from wanting to move to another hotel..

[Johhny Utah]

Anaheim is sh*t - the hotel is enormous, and quite often noisy. There's nothing to do in the immediate environ, and the only transport is a bus on the main road :bored: Anyone complaining about a long slip at the Bonaventure will be slashing their wrists at the prospect of anything more than minimum rest at Anaheim... :{
The rumour that I'm clinging onto is that the FAAA has approved the hotel at Anaheim for the flight attendants, but our union has not given the seal of approval (except for the overflow period, where we stayed there during the Rosebowl week). I'm not saying it would be fair, but it would be ironic if, as a result of the FAAA taking the issue to the AIRC, the flight attendants ended up out at Anaheim & the tech crew went back up to Pasadena ;) Yeah, hardly likely, but a man can dream can't he...? :ok:

[lowerlobe]

Johhny Utah,
It was funny the uproar in Qrewroom when we first went to the Bonaventure but now a number of tech crew are actually hoping that we do move so you guys can argue about a move back to Pasadena...

The previous faaa leadership Ok'ed the move to Anaheim but who has said that Anaheim is the only other hotel we could move to.

[Transition Layer]

Pasadena had the yard bar and it was safe for shire softies like TL to stagger home at the end of a long night but threat of reprisals

drshmoo my old mate!

My self defence skills have really improved of late - it's a requirement for living in the shire these days!

I'm with *Lancer* though, never had a problem late at night, even walking from as far as Broadway. Would probably rather not do it on my own, I've generally been in a group of 3 or more and occasionally (if lucky) some girls included who didn't feel unsafe. The dutch courage from having a few beers under the belt probably helps things though!

TL

[lowerlobe]

Johhny Utah..

“Why not try getting on a bus & going to The Grove (nah, maybe too far - it stops on the corner of the block the hotel is on.) Costco - nope, too far - the bus picks you up about 3 blocks away, and drops you right at the door. Pasadena - I guess not, as the train station is all of 4 blocks away (and then again, for $3 your all day pass will ONLY get you up to Pasadena & back, as well as unlimited bus/train travel...)”

So basically what you are telling biscuit chucker is that you have to leave the area to have fun and feel safe….

This is the whole point of the exercise of going to the AIRC..the hotel is fine ,it is the location that we do not like...

I agree with biscuit chucker safety is and should always be the number one priority and if you have to depart the area by whatever means to achieve that then that is unacceptable..

Ps I’m not a hostie so shopping is not a sport ,I go to Costco once a year and I don’t want to go to Pasadena or the grove either everyday when I am in LA for that matter,I would like to find somewhere safe to walk to ..…not escape from…..

As Bolty has said it would appear that the almighty dollar has reigned supreme in the decision making. Imagine for a moment during this 4 month test an assault occurs and a crew member is seriously injured. Apart from the legal aspects of litigation against the AIRC,the company and perhaps the commissioner , it makes a mockery of the safety first and zero injuries policy that the company bombards us with by posters and other means every time we go to work.

[Johhny Utah]

Yep, that's pretty much spot on what I was saying. However, I was trying to emphasise that, as much as you may have to do this, at least there are several different options transport wise for getting away from where we are. When we move to Anaheim (should that occur) you can kiss goodbye to anything useful - unless of course you want to go to Disneyland.

Downtown isn't Pasadena :{ However, to suggest that there's nothing to do because it's unsafe to walk out on the street day OR night is just plain ridiculous. I certainly don't go walking the streets alone late at night, and nor would I ever dare suggest that anyone else does, either.

I guess at the end of the day if you feel unsafe in the hotel, file a report. That's about the only way the company will ever get your point.

Out of interest, what do you do in LA if you don't go either Shopping/Movies/Costco?

p.s ever wondered what that funny looking, shiny building up on the hill near the hotel is? There you go - now you've got something to do (http://www.musiccenter.org/vtc/index.html) next time you're in LA :ok:

[lowerlobe]

Johhny,
When I am in a slip port whether it is SIN,FRA or LA,I usually go for long walks and see what there is to offer not what can I offer the inhabitants of downtown LA…

Going to Costco or the grove or wherever is like going to Taronga Park Zoo.it is great to see but how many times can you go there ,especially if you do a lot of LA’s.

I agree you can catch the train to Pasadena but again how many times do you do that? Also I have seen just as many fruitloops on the trains and buses as there are roaming around the streets..

Why don’t AIPA and FAAA both start investigating other possibilities in LA . Anaheim is not the only other alternative and I agree I don’t want an hour plus bus ride (in a mini van at that) after doing a 16 hour TOD.

Why can’t we find somewhere that has 2 or 3 hotels like Pasadena that crew can stay at within a 2 km radius.I think the company argument that they want us all at the same hotel just a ruse and that it was simply a cost factor that the misadventure offered a good rate and that Pasadena was becoming very popular and therefore more expensive.

The bottom line is though that the area is not safe and there are more than 2 hotels in LA that would be suitable ,it’s just that no one has looked yet or is following the company line for reasons known only to themselves.

[pakeha-boy]

Does the QF pilots union have a hotel committee???...from what I,m reading it is the company who does all the hiring and firing of hotels.

The company I work for allows the pilot unions hotel committe to do all the required groundwork and submit proposals etc etc...They (the company) control the purse strings but generally agreement is reached and most crews are happy with the selection,as those on the hotel committe(on company buisness,)inspect and stay at these establishments before mainline crews use them.

I was on the Hotel committee several years ago,the one thing that was apparent was, that sifting through the hundreds of complaints,it was painfully obvious that the same names(those complaining the loudest)would appear on a regular basis.I think it is worth mentioning,this may not be the case at QF,but some people will piss and moan even when hung with a new rope ..PB

[Lord Snot]

Blatantly obvious solution for Quantas LA hotel issues:

Sack all the old hags who are doing the whinging and replace them with new American gals, kind of like they did with the poms in Heefrow.

These girls can over-night in Sydney instead of the other way around and you could pay them less too. This plan will ensure that the:

-Hosties are happy.

-Pax are happy.

-Pilots are happy.

-Management are happy.

-Tired old boilers and flouncing poofs are........... NOT happy. But who cares??? :p

Make sure they are all young and luscious too. Throw in a few of dem southern gals from Naw-leeunns because they talk sexy!

[Iron Bar]

Snotto

That is without doubt the best suggestion I have heard yet :}

Should run the same plan in Tokyo and Frankfurt :ok:

The old boilers and flouncing poofs are the Achilles heel of the airline :mad:

(btw no u in Qantas shaggs)

[Simon Templar]

Good to see that homophobia and misogyny are alive and well and flourishing amongst those with an IQ smaller than their shoe size.

[Iron Bar]

Ha Ha afraid not Simon.

The faults of many, if not the majority of Qf long haul cabin crew are cold hard facts and sad reality pal.

Having not seen the LA hotel or downtown area I can't comment. But Pasadena was very very good and I suspect more secure with much better shopping. I'm sure they are very Pi$$ed about moving from there. However is downtown LA any worse than Jo'burg, Manila or Jakarta?? Argentina used to be very dicey too but never a winge about that !!! Ha Ha as if. :E

[qcc2]

snotto first we send you to a fact lesson. quantas, mate you are a piece. fake american accents, fake t**t*, fake everthing .just look and find out if there has ever been an american airline in the top 10 in airline surveys.
:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[lowerlobe]

I think I've seen iron bar walking around mascot..you can't miss him as he is wearing a blue singlet and footy shorts with boots

[Animalclub]

qcc2 Please be careful about generalisation. Yes I have seen an American carrier in several top 10 surveys. That some of these surveys, not all of them, were only for American carriers is beside the point!!!

Just don't generalise. Yes I'm a bit of a pedant!

[travel thickness]

Pedant is french for homosexual I believe.
Perhaps you should rethink your self characterisation.