ATPL CPL or IR???

[g-mady]

Once saw a post on rotorheads and just want to check -

I have begun ATPL (H) studies and heard that if you do a CPL course for your flying, the licence could expire because you dont upgrade it to an ATPL (H) by doing an IR??? Confused - well I am?

MADY


PS
Did anyone else find the Chart calculations (Mecator charts, oblique mercs. lat and long calcs) in commercial studies a real challenge and how much have you used this knowledge as a commercial pilot (H).

[mongoose237]

If you get a pass in all 13 ATPL(H) ground exams, they are valid for issue of a CPL(H) and an IR(H) for 36months. You then have 7 years from the date of your last IR renewal to get the required hours for the issue of an ATPL(H).

If after 36 months you have only taken a CPL(H), your theory credits for an IR(H) have lapsed, and along with it your ATPL(H) credits. To now get an ATPL(H) you must retake all 13 exams (and obtain an IR(H))

If you do CPL theory from the start, those exams are only valid for the issue of a CPL(H).

If you feel
1. You will never want an ATPL(H); or
2. You will be unable to get an IR(H) within 36mths
then CPL theory is an option. But be aware it firmly closes a door. With a little bit more work, you have kept your options open for an ATPL.

[paco]

G-Mady

I use the chart calculations all the time in Northern Canada. Iddition, while there is a lot of "useless knowledge", a lot of it is there for other requirements - CRM/Human Factors is an ICAO requirement, and the radio propagation stuff is part of the amateur radio licence, required becase you are given a cut down version

Phil

[helicopter-redeye]

[QUOTE=g-mady]Once saw a post on rotorheads and just want to check -
I have begun ATPL (H) studies and heard that if you do a CPL course for your flying, the licence could expire because you dont upgrade it to an ATPL (H) by doing an IR??? Confused - well I am?


All in Lasors (on about 2 pages).

[Whirlygig]

But be aware it firmly closes a door

What door does it close? I went for CPL(H) theory option as I realised I didn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting an IR(H) in 3 years. The option to go onto IR is still there if I decide that is better than FI.

Cheers

Whirls

[mongoose237]

The door to an offshore career, unless you want to remain a co-pilot. Even if you get a CPL and then do an IR, that isn't sufficient for the issue of an ATPL. Which means you cannot be commander of a multicrew helicopter.

So if by a twist of fate you were fortunate enough to be picked up by the North Sea in your first 3 years, or decided to do an IR instead of an FI, you cannot get an ATPL (you would have a CPL/IR which is different). This will obvious severely hinder an offshore career, and may even preclude you being picked up by the offshore industry in the first place. Unless of course you are happy to return to the books and do the 13 exams at a later date.

[Whirlygig]

Well, either way, you have have to do/redo exams then if you're not going to get an IR in three years! And let's face it, in the current climate with the cost of getting a JAA IR, it's unlikely for most!

Cheers

Whirls

[mongoose237]

The CPL route isn't for everyone, and nor is the ATPL route. Each individual has to weigh up the balances of whats best for them, and what suits one person may not suit another.

CPL theory is slightly cheaper, and the academic workload / time frame is less with 9 exams instead of 13.
ATPL theory is more expensive, but gives you more options (however remote they may be). In the worst case your ATPL credits lapse and in 3 years you are in a similar position to that of someone who had done CPL exams.

Many things change in 3 years, both personal circumstance and the industry. You're gambling additional study, time and money for a time-limited shot at the North Sea. However that additional money / study may well not be an option for people financially, those who struggle with the theory or those who are juggling other commitments. Or indeed for those confident of their career path and/or the future of the oil industry.

If offshore employment prospects improve and you want to take advantage of them but only have CPL theory, you now have to do an additional 13 exams at a higher level to the 9 you have already done. If the route is CPL - IR - ATPL then the exam total is even higher.

Another consideration in the ATPL/CPL decision is which groundschool provider is going to suit your needs the best; the choice of provider is more limited at CPL level than an ATPL level.

There are people who did ATPL theory that has now lapsed. There are other people who progressed quicker than they anticipated, accumulated around 800 - 1000 hours instructing over 2 years and are being picked up for IR sponsorship.

[g-mady]

Tanks mongoose237 - answered my question quite clearly

"Hope" for the future - Obtain ATPL (H) theory, do CPL (H) course - Build instrument hours for issue of an IR...

Hope

[mongoose237]

That would be an interesting CAA turn around for those with lapsed ATPL credit. However for fresh people coming through the system it would still be easier to go ATPL (13 exams) rather than CPL (9 exams) and IR theory (7 exams)

The current situation in LASORS 2006, Section G11

Credits from the ATPL(H) Theoretical Knowledge Examination
• Holders of an IR(H) may have the theoretical instruction hours reduced by 200 hours.
• An applicant who has previously passed either or both of the examinations in VFR and IFR communications will not be re-examined in the relevant sections.
• The holder of a valid JAR-FCL CPL(A) with valid ATPL(A) theory credit/ATPL (A)/IR will be required to complete the appropriate bridging examination requirements (see J1.9).
• The holder of a valid JAR-FCL CPL (H)/IR with JAR-FCL ATPL Theory credit will be credited the JAR-FCL ATPL (H) Theoretical knowledge examination for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of the IR (H) entered in the CPL (H).

[puntosaurus]

I'd love to know the pass rates on CPL(H) exams and compare it with ATPL(H). Bristol publishes the CAA stats for the ATPL(A) exams, but not ATPL(H).

I have a suspicion that because the ATPL is such a well trodden route, the feedback is excellent so that for those with good memories, the exams are made that much easier for having seen the actual questions before. I further suspect that this goes some way to overcoming the disadvantage of the larger and less relevant content of the ATPL (H) syllabus over the CPL(H).

I'm not suggesting that just learning feedback is the way to go, but it certainly helps, particularly in subjects like Airlaw and AGK where the syllabus is simply too broad, and the volume of facts too large just to onboard the whole lot.

[chester2005]

The current situation in LASORS 2006, Section G11

Credits from the ATPL(H) Theoretical Knowledge Examination
• The holder of a valid JAR-FCL CPL (H)/IR with JAR-FCL ATPL Theory credit will be credited the JAR-FCL ATPL (H) Theoretical knowledge examination for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of the IR (H) entered in the CPL (H).

According to my interpretation of Lasors : If the holder of a CPL(H) with ATPL theory maintains a valid IR(H) the ATPL theory will maintain valid towards the issue of an ATPL so the 7 year limit only applies if the IR(H) lapses.

Is this not so?????????????

Chester

[mongoose237]

Correct, 7 years from the date of your last IR expiry

[Flapping Doctor]

Are there age restricitons on being recruited by one of the off-shore companies? Say - just as an example you understand :O - someone is the wrong side of 35. Any chance?

The answer may help some of us decide on the CPL vs ATPL question.....

Thanks

[N Arslow]

OK - I am mildly concerned but I hope I do not have to be if I have got this right:

I have held a frozen ATPL for a bunch of years using it shortly after passing the exams and obtaining an IR. It is one month short of 7 seven years since I last flew the IR renewal but from my understanding the frozen ATPL is safe until that IR lapsed +7 years - so I believe I am good for another year in order to unfreeze the licence - or get an IR and then I will be good for longer - is that correct?

This is actually for my (A) rather than (H) but I think the rules are the same either way.

Or have I only got a month to get back fixed wing current and do an IR? Please no...:*

[mongoose237]

7 years from the "valid until" date of your IR

The holder of a valid JAR-FCL CPL(A)/IR with
JAR-FCL ATPL Theory credit will be credited the
JAR-FCL ATPL(A) Theoretical knowledge
examination for a period of 7 years from the last
validity date of the IR(A) entered in the CPL(A).



Are there age restricitons on being recruited by one of the off-shore companies? Say - just as an example you understand :O - someone is the wrong side of 35. Any chance?

With some hours under their belt (through instructing) people in mid to late 30s are still being picked up for the North Sea. If you do it full time, you can get CPL/FI plus 1000 hrs within the 3 year validity period.