Why is it £500 per hour

[Plopypoop]

Ok maybe I am missing something so can I get some help. Why does it cost £500 per hour to fly a twin with an IR instructor in the UK and only £125 in the US? Fuel is not that much more over here. Do Uk instructors give you added extras during the approach to relax you or something. Is it just plain greed and snobery or is there a valid reason for these stupid prices?

[FlyingForFun]

Where did you get your figure of £500 from?

The first two companies' websites I checked are far less: £286 at Multiflight, and £355 at Professional Air Training. :confused:

(I also checked Oxford's website, but gave up when I couldn't find the price after 5 minutes...)

FFF
-----------------

[helicopter-redeye]

:hmm: The obvious answers are "fuel cost and taxation".

£500/ hr for IFR instruction in a twin helicopter would be a dream....:eek: :{ :ugh:

[G-SP0T]

my school in the us pay abt $1 / gal!!!! find tht in the uk!

also, landing/app fee's need to be payed in the uk, not us.

i imagine tht the CAA would also take alot of cash so they can but there 911's!!??

[Leezyjet]

Often wondered myself why it's so much more expensive in the UK, and not just twins.

Most of the training a/c come from the US, so will have been sold in US$, so no matter where you are, the price of the a/c is still the same - might even end up with a better deal too if the exchange rate is good.

Sure fuel is more, but by no means is it so much more that the cost per hour could be double that found in the US or elsewhere.

I just cannot see myself where the extra expenses are coming from.

Landing fee's cannot be the answer either, as they are usually extra to the hire cost.

Personally the only resonable reason I can think of is it's to keep it more elitist - a rich boys hobby to stop the "peasents" from being able to fly by pricing them out. :hmm:

:)

[rudestuff]

G-SPOT.. $1 a gallon? i'd like to know where is the US you are, as 100LL is $3.50 - $5.00 a gallon in the US...

Plopypoop, just go and train in the US - it's a damn site cheaper - even if you do come home and convert... You'll experience how aviation should be - they invented it after all - and it'll open your eyes to just how snobby/elitist flying is in the UK.

In the US you can just start up, take off, decide where you want to go, land (free in all but the largest airports - even if they're holding a couple of heavy jets for you), borrow a courtesy car while the fuel guy is filling you up (airports are like gas stations - you can pull in whenever you like - none of this PPR nonsense), get a burger, repeat....

Of course, you'll not impress anyone over there by being a pilot, as it's seen in the same light as cab driver/truck driver/pool cleaner... and probably pays less.

[dynamite dean]

I think unfortunately the price you see is a composite price. At bonus where I am doing my Conversion it is 368 quid per hour including approach fees.

I share your fustration identical aircraft to the one you used to fly perhaps; yet here in the land of taxation and red tape the prices leap.
368 includeds of course fuel , maintence , wear and tear and remember wear and tear in aircraft terms are propellors, engines, airframe all with there own price tag set aside; what else ? Excess insurance , school overheads light , admin charges oh yes the instructors salary, and a bit of profit.

What does get me though over here is that most of the flying school buildings that I see just doesn't look anything special compared to some places abroad.

In 1975 an apache per hour was 30 pounds per hour now its ten times that so I guess in relation to standard of living compared to how everything else has increased it hasn''t kept pace however it still kills me everytime I get in that plane and I can smell only fire in the cockpit....that is my wallet burning !:ok:

[Whirlygig]

Personally the only resonable reason I can think of is it's to keep it more elitist - a rich boys hobby to stop the "peasents" from being able to fly by pricing them out

If that were the case, then all the UK operators and Flying Schools would be making huge profits employing highly paid staff and instructors. And we all know that that isn't true! Any Flying School that is a Limited Company will have their Accounts available for inspection at Companies House; perusal of a few of these will show that very few make a profit and most just break even. It can be seen with businesses like Dragon Helicopters (who have gone into Administration) that some make losses.

This is matter of macro-economics. Compare the cost of living in UK to USA. Compare the cost of a house and the comparative salaries in each country. We have a totally different taxation system (including VAT, Business Rates, etc) plus other employee costs. Compare the cost of renting a hangar and this has to be done in relative terms, not absolute. What fees does an operator have to pay to the FAA compared with those paid to the CAA?

Running an aviation operation under JAA has different rules and requirements which I understand to be more stringent; they certainly more stringent when it comes to training.

Supply and demand will also figure here; unless the demand for aircraft increases whereupon the supply will increase, the prices will remain high. So, while we have less need for general aviation in the UK than in much larger countries like the US, the demand will remain low. While we have quite a vociferous anti-GA lobby, the demand will remain low.

We are beginning to see an increase in the demand for helicopter operations with their uses becoming more widespread; more Air Ambulances, more Police ASUs, more survey work and aerial photography. Consequently, with an increased demand, there is an increased supply and it is relatively cheaper now to learn to fly a helicopter than it was 20 years ago. I can't speak for fixed-wing ops though but it serves as an example.

There is a lot more to it than just fuel and landing fees. But I can state that the profit margins experienced by UK operators will be similar (if not less) than those of their US counterparts.

Cheers

Whirls

[moggiee]

, and a bit of profit.:
But rarely very much!

[G-SP0T]

...this school gets it cheep...

i paid at a diff airport today $3.80 a gal...

still damm good value out here.

[p290951]

prices in the US are plus tax. There will be State tax and possibly a city tax. In Canada, you will pay Provincial, plus Federal tax @ 7%. Provincial tax's vary from 6% to 10%.
Avgas has the tax included in the pump price.

[Lord Flashheart]

Rudestuff quote; "Plopypoop, just go and train in the US - it's a damn site cheaper - even if you do come home and convert... You'll experience how aviation should be - they invented it after all - and it'll open your eyes to just how snobby/elitist flying is in the UK."

Just be aware Plopypoop that converting an FAA licience to a JAR one isn't cheap, and often not easy due to the training standards differing somewhat in the US. Maybe it is much more relaxed as Rudestuff says but is that always good for commercial training?

My advice would be if you want to work in the UK, do the UK syllabus. If you want to work in the US, look into whether you can or not before crossing the pond, getting your "cheap" licence only to be asked to leave after you've contributed nicely to Florida's economy.

Everyones situation is different so look at every FTO possible, just be aware that going to the US might not be the saving it first appears.

[Dude~]

Where do you get £125 from? Sounds awfully low for mulit engine IR training, even in the states....

[AlexL]

Its the same reason that everything costs more in the UK rather than the US. The cost of running a business here is much higher.

Direct costs:

Fuel much more in the UK
CAA regulation costs much more

Indirect costs:

Land costs
Taxes
Salary
Energy
etc etc.

It doesn't matter where you look, every business in the UK costs more to run. The so-called "Rip-off Britain" effect, except it ain't the business who are raking it in.

BTW 300 per hour should be closer to the mark for a twin IR training, 250 for non-IR twin (ie ME class training)

[cosworth211]

125 may be feasible in the US, where you can claim safety pilot/2nd pilot hours, and split the cost, but we demand a higher standard in the UK. :suspect:
The JAA school based in florida I did my MEP with charges $300 on a ropey duchess, I have found the same price in the Uk on a superior a/c after certain "export concessions" available to a south coast MEP flyer...

[Aviator LGB]

I instruct in Long Beach in a Piper Seneca II (PA34-200T) kept under 135 certificate. Its a beautiful and well maintained aircraft.

Plane and instructor $235/hr everything included!

Plane even has a CD player in it! How cool is that?

Doing an ILS to ACDC, Highway to Hell simply rocks and you dont even feel the wake turbulence off the A320 leading you in with that kind of music.

:ok:

[onwardsandupwards]

I've been looking at UK schools who offer this myself.
On Cabair's self fly hire page they list a twin Cougar/Seminole for £220+VAT including fuel. Other companies have been mentioned already.
Beneath that are instructor rates at £60+VAT for the above a/c.
Works out much less than £500...

http://www.cabairflyingschools.com and click the SFH link

[porridge]

Ja ou Dynamite Dean (ook bekend as "Springstof Dean" in Suid Afrika). just think how many "Inkukuburgers" you can buy in SA for £368/hour!
Yes, it is expensive here, but the fuel is a major part of the cost, that's why these diesel twins even though they are new and thus mean a high capital outlay or leasing cost are now much more competitive against the older piston types!
Groete, jou instrukteur Pap (ook bekend as "Porridge" in die UK)

[George Foreman]

Most of the above holds true, but I suspect that the fixed costs (aircraft insurance, finance charges, annual inspections, admin, supervisory staff, rent & rates etc..) of providing an aircraft for training or for private hire are simply spread over more flight hours per year, ie the aircraft simply fly more; quite a lot more.

This is especially true in places like California, Arizona and Florida where the big schools benefit from good weather most of the year, but I suspect that is not the whole story...

There must also be considerably more demand .. the "virtuous circle" of lower prices surely results in higher demand, but also as has been said, aviation is more "mainstream", and GA in particular is more integrated into the economy than it is in the UK...more private work, more air taxi, more self-fly hire and more private owners etc..

On top of that and as has already been stated, I hear that GA is more "accessible", and easier to use...from filing a flight plan to ground handling, etc. From a competitiveness viewpoint, the UK could learn a lot from the US, if there was the political will and the balance of power did not lie with airline industry lobbysists such as Eddington, intent on forcing GA to pay ever more towards the cost of running the CAA and our air traffic management facilities. The latter are almost exclusively provided to serve either airline or military facilities...er, flight following, anyone ?

[Julian]

There is also this mad JAA idea of charging more for the instructor depending upon what licence you are undertaking, the higher up the tree you are the more you will pay per hour! The schools I have used in the US have charged the same hourly rate ($35/hr) no matter what if you are PPL, ME, CPL, IR etc, so that would have a big effect on the overall cost and that is something that could be acted upon,

FFF, I bumped into a student from a well known school in Oxfordshire about 2 years ago when I flew over to L2K. He told us he was paying £400/hr dual for his multi time then!!! Now thats a rip off!

Julian

[wobble2plank]

£500 would get you precisely 6 minutes in the S61N!!!! Without IFR instructor! Just goes to show how different the systems are. Costs for the ATPL(H) are astronomical in comparison with the fixed wing equivalents! Pay is much poorer on the line as well for the helo boys.

If your after an (A) then stop crying and pay the money in the States, it's much more fun over there anyway.

Enjoy

[Dude~]

£5000 an hour?!!:eek: that just silly money!

Mind you its still less than people pay for the hire of a 737 for their base check at the end of a TR. But it is only for half an hour or so I suppose.

Wobble...
Would anyone seriously pay for S61 time privately? and if so to what end? surely you can't hire them for lunch in Le Touq?!