View Full Version : EK longest Duty time ever
EK did it again, EK406 left DXB the 28th for MEL, in MEL was fog so the crew diverted to canberra and then flew back to MEL.
The crew started their duty the 28th at 0510z and ended the 29th at 0107z, thats 19:57 hours of duty, 1:37 more than the FOM allows.
The FOM says
21.7.1
Commander’s discretion to extend a
flight duty period is not generally
applicable to this operation.
21.7.6
Regardless of this process, no flight
included in this operational plan may be
continued if, using the best available
predictions, the continuation of the flight
will increase the duty period by more
than 4 hours over that originally planned
and published (0510z-1930z).
well done boys, hand in your liecenses and enjoy the profitshare
uplock
29th Jan 2006, 07:48
If this is correct then it would be interesting to here why the crew did not use Adelaide or another Alternate and why they chose Canberra
I can understand EK using Canberra as a technical alternate so to carry less fuel yet many guys operating this flight would be more than happy to make a diversion into Canberra. Ask the 777 guys who diverted into Canberra from Sydney late November if they would do it again and what a stuff up it was getting refueled.
Yes there is scope for the Captain to take another alternate other than Canberra however given the push from management to take min fuel how many guys really know what they are getting them selves in to?Our Route manual does not high light this.
Qantas I understand would not use Canberra as an alternate for the B747 or B767.
Canberra has some unique operational requirements which can and do still catch guys out. The ATSB makes comments on how QF use Canberra as an alternate in this report in regards to A330 operationsfrom QF Route Manual (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2004/AAIR/aair200401270.aspx)Supplement
Having experienced delays as well on the Direct Dubai to OZ service it does pay to read up and have a working knowledge of the Long Haul Operational flight time plan else you will leave yourself open to misinterpretation from Dubai given that they really are having trouble crewing some flights.
Vorsicht
29th Jan 2006, 08:27
Perusal of the portal indicates that it was a management pilot who would probably been quite familiar with Canberra.
airbus757
29th Jan 2006, 09:16
Zomp Says...
"well done boys, hand in your liecenses and enjoy the profitshare"
Zomp, you say that as if you are getting some pleasure from it. I would have to say that you are not a good fella. To broadcast to the world others mistakes and misfortunes and get pleasure from it is low.
Zomp...you are a rat.
7
tipsy2
29th Jan 2006, 10:29
uplock, Adelaide is subject to a curfew that finishes at 1930Z. Whilst that may not have been a consideration, appropriate staffing, tarmac availability etc etc may have been. It is also possible numerous other operators had already diverted to ADL and occupied the handfull of parking positions available. 1930z into MEL is a morning 'happy hour' peak arrival time.
tipsy
Airbus757,
If you fly for 20 hours and think you are still within limits then there is something wrong with you, nobody would do that, except maybe you Airbus757. It was not a mistake by the crew, they knew what they were doing, one guy was management.
The Captain is in charge of the airplane, there are no excuses like somebody told me to do that.
critical winge
29th Jan 2006, 15:43
Itsn't it fact, that most accidents are statistically involving management pilots -company pressures and reputations (and positions) to keep and all that!
Yes indeed CW. The Tenerife North Accident involving the KLM and Pan Am 747's, the KLM Captain was a "star" training Captain. When they first heard of the accident, they tried calling him for advice, unfortunately he was unavailable....
EGGW
airbus757
29th Jan 2006, 18:01
I am not satisfied with your explanation Zomp. The SLR Ops are very confusing. It is possible that they misinturpeted them and made an error in calculating the ultimate limits. If they calculated them correctly and chose to ignore the limit that is still a mistake albiet a much bigger one.
The point I am trying to make is that you seem to relish the thought of someone getting into trouble, losing their licence and the ability to provide for themselves and their families.
If this did indeed happen as you say it did then the last thing they need is someone saying "ha ha good for you, I hope you lose your licence."
In this industy you are only as good as your last 15 minutes of flight time. You and I are not immune to the dangers. One thing is for sure, if you made a mistake and got into trouble you can count on me to support you even though we disagree on some issues, and I hope you and all the pilots at Emirates would do the same. After all we are all in this sandpit together.
7
Warlock2000
29th Jan 2006, 18:47
If the SLR's are so confusing, then why don't they get simplified.
I'll tell you why. Because the more confusing they are, the more they can pull the wool over your eyes! :mad:
katmandu
29th Jan 2006, 21:02
i agree this is beyond the call of duty and it takes ballz to call night stop for crew rest and safety these guys failed at it and the next fella in the same situation gets shafted
EK plans you and expects you to go in discretion, thanks to guys like them who just do everything to please EK.
Thanks to them nothing gonna change and EK just to continues to operate like that.
We had a similar incident on a JFK flight were 3 pilots went over 18 hours, on another JFK flight a 3 man crew refused to go into discretion because crew control didn't come up with a 4th pilot, the flight left then 6 hours later after they found another full crew.
keep recovering
bluewater
30th Jan 2006, 07:21
One thing is for sure, if you made a mistake and got into trouble you can count on me to support you even though we disagree on some issues, and I hope you and all the pilots at Emirates would do the same. After all we are all in this sandpit together.
What a load of bollocks! Anybody in EK that thinks there colleagues are going to unite behind them is living a dream – be nice to think so but it just ain’t so!
ratpoison
30th Jan 2006, 10:10
Yes well, if one has a look on the Portal to see who the two Capt's were, it all falls into place why they kept pushing it. :ugh:
shaggin yoke
30th Jan 2006, 10:21
Canberra was brought in to reduce fuel costs as a fair weather alternate only. In marginal weather it is normal to carry fuel for commercial alternate. The rules are clear. The crew should not have departed Canberra and exceeded max FDP (save dire emergency). This incident does not surprise me, as commercial pressure is a modus operandum for EK and flight safety has taken a back seat. I hope that the AUS authorities look into this breach of flight safety in their airspace. EK are fast becoming the cowboys of the skies with there flagrent abuse of the law. I mean no offence to the fine crews employed for this tyranical outfit. My critisicsm is aimed at AAL who holds sole responsibility for his devestation of a once great airline.
I wish you all luck.
The further you bend over backwards the faster your back will break
donpizmeov
30th Jan 2006, 15:05
Well I guess there is no need for an investigation as you fellas seem to have it all worked out.
A few times on the way to MEL I have seen the CAVOK weather forecast we left with, change to Tempo fog. Luckily flight watch did not inform us (but playing with ACARS did) as what you don't know won't hurt you right? Guess when you fly half a day to end up somewhere things can change. Was this the case?
I have also left ADL to return to MEL after diverting to find I had to hold forever as all the domestic traffic that had been holding recovered. Perhaps they left within the limits and were caught short when they arrived. Should they have just turned off the engines at time expire time? Perhaps they forgot to mention that they wanted the GPS approach the required 5hrs before arrival, and the approach controller cracked the Sh@ts again and put them into the hold?
Could have been a million reasons why this happened. I was not there and have no idea why, just like you fellas don't. But I am sure that the crew would have made the best decision they could have at the time, with the info they had, and all of this without any assistance from Flight ops. Because we all know that flight ops will never help when there is a good chance that someone will need to be held accountable somewhere.
Don
shaggin yoke
30th Jan 2006, 15:26
Don,
Time for some leave ay mate?
I never suggested that they turn of the engines. I said that PLANNING on canberra is a fair weather option. If the weather turnes against you then you have to divert to Canberra. What you DONT do is then depart Canberra when by doing so you exceed Max FDP.
Notams suggest a minimum of 20mins fuel for holding a peak periods but as I said commerciality is forcing flight safety into the shadows.
Now sit down have a beer and plan your next vacation my old friend
don,
it's 30 min flight time from CBR to MEL, they left CBR more than an hour after their duty time expired.
enjoy your vacation.
donpizmeov
30th Jan 2006, 15:39
As I said shaggin, I do not know what happened just as you don't. I will however
wait to see what really happened before anonymously bad mouthing the crew on a public forum.
What I said to you was, perhaps they departed CBR when they would still be within the max FDP on arrival MEL, and something happened to prevent this from happening. Only they know at the moment I guess.
Fully agree with the commercial pressures, beer and vacation things though.
Don
Fluke
30th Jan 2006, 17:25
Hey some good (sensible) news.
Looks like 3 pilots have been allocated to the Korean flights in FEB.
On my flight there is anyway!:suspect:
radnav
30th Jan 2006, 22:05
The SLR plan is not that difficult to interpret ,and a management pilot who helped write them can't really use that as an excuse.
The actual block time, chock to chock, CBR to MEL was only 1hr 02min, exactly as one would optimistically expect if all went well with no further significant delays.
Quite possibly the parking brake was released in CBR knowing full well that the spirit and intent of the SLR was well and truely blown. But who knows for sure.
Apparently one approach in MEL and then not enough fuel for anywhere else but CBR.
Poor chaps must have been a wee bit weary. Its tiring enough when all goes well on this flight let alone trying to deal with this kind of crap during your body clocks low ebb, Dubai time.