Do Other Major Airlines Besides Emirates have Pilots over the Yearly Flying Hours?

[uplock]

Can any one who is working in any of the Major Pax Airlines advise if they have Pilots being Rostered for days off because they have exceeded the maximum amount of flying that can be achieved in 12 months?

What Yearly total does your company Roster Pilots for?

Here in EK its 900 Hours every 12 months. This figure until last year was never reached or exceeded.( company advised in writing that after a review of all pilots no body was over there 900 hour limit, now we see every month Pilots rostered OFF because of being over the yearly limit)

Credibility is a problem.You don't know what to believe any more given the slip ups passed on to us.

Is it possible to get some hard information and figures rather than cynical comments to stop winging and if you don't like it leave.

Further back ground the Management Mantra here in Emirates has always been our salary and condition are compared to a "basket of World Class Airlines in the Top 10 or so and then averaged out to come up with our salary package"

Sure every one has to worry about oil price rises it does effect every one yet here in EK the company announce record profits year after year, I see my purchase power from my salary decrease year after year.
( The oil revenue does eventually go back here)

Like many others I have given the company the benefit of doubt and worked into over time (not that I'm chasing it rather days off to enjoy time with the family than just spend it recovering and adjusting my body clock). Worked on Rostered days off when asked usually at the last moment ...(Not any More, as I'm too stuffed).

Ask how many times a year we are rostered to fly into Captains Discretion or should that be Company Discretion only because the bean counters would not approve an augmented crew even when it was painfully obvious one was required. ( Take the Dubai-Seoul-Dubai sector still only operated with 2 crew as a shinning example of forward planning in logistics)

Unfortunately it has not been a 2 way street. With many adjustments to T&C productivity from Pilots in EK has sky rocketed .I'm having trouble understanding each year the record profits announced by Emirates to the world media and yet finding my real life spending money decreasing year after year with very little compensation.

A decreasing Life style package combined with an Inflation Figure that has been ignored by Management is increasingly hard to stomach, given the turn that the Spin Doctors constantly feed us guys at the "Pointy End"

To add further insult the Government here in Dubai do not consider the effect of housing and rental prices when "Publishing Official Inflation " figures, yet not a week goes by with out an article in the local papers discussing the spiring cost of living in Dubai.

The Government however did recognize that Government employees did deserve a pay rise and last year Government workers received 25% Increase in salary .....nice for some.

Interesting article in the Emirates Today Jan 28th Edition speaking from the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, Mohamed Ali Alabbar (who is Director General of the Dubai Department of Economic Development and also Chairman of Emaar Properties) ....."Rentals in the UAE have increased by an average of 38% through 2005..."

Only a token effort has been made to address the rampant inflation in Dubai from EK.For example last year the Housing allowance was only increased by 10% even though Expate Renters have to pay an additional 5% to the Dubai Municipality.

There is no official CPI Figures available here in Dubai yet your House Maid would have a better understanding on this than what is feed to us by EK Management.

The standard mantra yet again has been "Its under review" or "we are looking into it" .

So I would like to have some information so that I can "review" and "look in to" as I am skeptical whenManagement write to us given the continual denial and lack of acknowledgment that there is a moral problem among all EK employees, not just the Pilots.

[411A]

Quite a reasonable question, uplock, and it deserves a reasonable answer.
Although I do not not work for a large pax airline now, I have in the past (2 actually) and I found myself rostered off on several occasions due to reaching the maximum allowed flying hours.
HOWEVER, these airlines had quite a good overtime schedule, so it certainly paid well to fly to the max.
If EK does not do this, they are very mis-guided, and will more than likely find FD crew looking elsewhere, as I'm sure some are doing now.

My motto...fly 'em hard, but pay 'em well.

[ruserious]

You do not get days off for being over 900 hours, you get a MONTH off, do not accept anything less, just check the FOM and if they give you any hassle, suggest you should seek clarification from the GCAA. Especially if they try and give you sim or ground duties, that is not how the regulations are meant to be interpreted.

[SecurID]

Is it wrong to contact the GCAA? I have spoken to some people who seem to think that it is wrong to do so, that we are 'dobbing in' the company. In the western world, the regulations would not be bent so ridiculously, therefore people would not need to seek guidance. Here we have no Union or pilot's association and no affable and empaphetic management to seek guidance and assistance from, so what is the choice left for us in order to clarify the regulations?

[BigGeordie]

In my last job (scheduled long haul) I never heard of anybody hitting 900 hours in the 4 years I was there. However, if you have been working days off I don't really think you are in a position to complain about how tired you have become...

[Vorsicht]

Interesting twist Uplock. One of the contributing factors to this problem is the fact that many pilots do work on their days off.

It is known that scheduling contact guys on days off before they use their reserve pilots, so that they can present a better picture to their bosses, but also they know that no one is going to work on a day off if they are called at midnight. Therefore days off guys are used during the day which leaves the reserve available for last minute callouts at night.

I everyone (many already do) refuse to work on days off, then the management would be pushed into a corner where they would have to at least increase their reserve coverage (employ more pilots) which has to be good for all of us. i.e they cant fill the courses now let alone if they had to increase the numbers. That may (or may not) result in an improvement in "the package"

Moral to the story

DONT WORK ON YOUR DAYS OFF!!!

[Rubberbiscuit]

In Canada you're allowed 1200 hours a year:confused: , if that makes you feel any better. At my last airline many were hovering close to this limit.

[max AB]

SecureID, it is not wrong to contact the GCAA. They issued you with your liscence, if you have questions regarding your drivers liscence who do you call? (Well, who would you call if not here I mean...)

[typhoonpilot]

In Canada you're allowed 1200 hours a year:confused: , if that makes you feel any better. At my last airline many were hovering close to this limit.

I was going to post something similar.

Waa, waa , waa, cry me a river :{ My record is over 1200 hours in a year. Of course, I was making good coin :ok:


TP

[mensaboy]

I do believe that in Canada, one also receives credit for at least 1/2 hour after chocks, and a more realistic credit for checking in times as well. All pilots reach work at approximately 1hour50 minutes prior to departure yet only receive credit for 1 hour. In addition, once the aircrafts engines are shut down, our credit ends. Typically I don't reach the CBC until close to one hour after chocks. So, in other words, a duty day of 10 hours at EK, is more realistically a duty day of closer to 12 hours. This does not include travel time to and from work in case you were wondering.
As well, many of our block times are skewed grossly in the company's favour. In other words, we typically fly longer than the scheduled block time because that's how long it takes. The GCAA has never and probably will never, validate the block times that EK uses. I do believe that in Canada, if the block times are not achieved at greater than a 90% rate, then they have to be adjusted by the company.
All of this adds up to a significant number of hours over 12 months. And besides, equating anything Canada does with respect to crew duty limits, is madness.
I doubt there is one company in Canada that flies their pilots even close to the limits if they are flying both east and west and crossing multiple time zones, intermixed with thru-the-night short haul flights, with min crew and min rest intervals between flights.

[Panama Jack]

Rubberbiscuit's and typhoonpilot's responses underscore one of the fundamental ills in the Canadian pilot profession-- the one-up-manship and macho bush pilot romance syndrome that has largely broken down the professional comeraderie amongst pilots in the Canadian airline industry. :hmm:

I often hear these chest thumping stories, usually preceeded by the words "back up North we used to . . . " whenever another pilot brings up a grievance. Make no mistake. Even in Canada, pilot groups like IFALPA has raised their concerns about flight and duty time limits, which were arrived at with little scientific input from research groups like NASA who have studied the phenonemon.

It is foolhardy to use "the Canadian experience" as a litmus test for everything that happens in aviation. There are actually few positives that can be drawn from the working environment of the Canadian aviation industry-- little wonder that so many are plying the trade throughout Asia and in other parts of the world.

[CanadaKid]

Panama Jack,
Couldn't have said it better myself.
More pilots have to learn to say NO.
CK

[typhoonpilot]

Rubberbiscuit's and typhoonpilot's responses underscore one of the fundamental ills in the Canadian pilot profession-- the one-up-manship and macho bush pilot romance syndrome that has largely broken down the professional comeraderie amongst pilots in the Canadian airline industry. :hmm:
I often hear these chest thumping stories, usually preceeded by the words "back up North we used to . . . " whenever another pilot brings up a grievance. Make no mistake. Even in Canada, pilot groups like IFALPA has raised their concerns about flight and duty time limits, which were arrived at with little scientific input from research groups like NASA who have studied the phenonemon.
It is foolhardy to use "the Canadian experience" as a litmus test for everything that happens in aviation. There are actually few positives that can be drawn from the working environment of the Canadian aviation industry-- little wonder that so many are plying the trade throughout Asia and in other parts of the world.


Wrong. My comments, along with Rubberbiscuit's, underscore the fact the there are places in the world where a 900 hour limit is very good. I'm not Canadian, by the way.

The endless complaining about EK here has begun to take on a life of it's own. Each person coming up with a new trauma. Sorry, but 900 hours in a year isn't a big deal. There are many countries in the world where the limit is higher. Canada is 1200, the USA is 1000, Taiwan is 1000.

The reason people at EK are tired isn't because of the 900 hours they have flown, it is because of what time of day they have flown. The effects of major time zone changes on the body and multiple night flights are the issue. If you want to fix the problem, you have to identify it correctly.

Typhoonpilot

[Vorsicht]

Are the hours you quote stick hours duty hours?

[typhoonpilot]

Block time. Duty time would be substantially more than EK due to the nature of the flying.

TP

[parcival]

Don't mind doing 900 hours a year.

Do mind doing Sydney-Auckland followed by a night Tehran followed by New York. With min days off between the trips being the norm.

And I find it hard to see how the required recovery days after ULH flights can be part of the legal eight days off a month, but they are.

[meaw]

The question was regarding major international airlines.In Canada the only place you will fly 1200 hours a year is at a third level bush operator or charter operator.
So going back to the original question,at Air Canada for example you will average 700 Hours a year.Been here almost 8 years and never ever even come remotly close to the maximum hours nor has anybody I know.

[mutt]

Do EK pay overtime? How is it calculated?

In another ME airline, friend has just flown 66 duty hours overtime in January for a total of 131 duty hours. This basically means that he has earned double his basic salary. Kinda makes it worthwhile !!

Mutt

[Fish]

Mutt, your friend has it lucky then if his overtime kicks in at 65 hours. Over here in Dubai, we have to do 78 hours before getting overtime.

[BigGeordie]

And at less than 300Dhs/hr for an F/O it certainly won't double your basic salary!

[mutt]

Big Geordie,

The system here is based on a ratio scale for duty time above 65 hours, 1 hour duty =1 hour overtime, then 1.5 hours overtime, then 2 hours overtime, so that 65 hours overtime = 100% of salary.

Mutt

[CAT IIIB]

Dear Uplock,

Is that 900 hours factorised hours or non factorised?

Over here;

1)900 hours factorised in 365 days(not 12 months) for Wide body.
2)Factorised means we logged 85% for 4 man crew ops ex:KUL-LON,90%
for 3 man crew ops ex:KUL-AKL.
4)This 900 hours is governed by the Civil Aviation Authority.
5)The company rosters pilots according to this schedule limits.However it is still the pilots' responsibility to monitor the hours and declare them if you suspect that you are high on hours.The company will then take you out of the roster.

If you decide to fly still,it's your call.

[uplock]

Cat 3B to answer your question our FTL document does not presently mention credit for factorizing however I suspect it is lurking in the back ground given the company briefly introduced factorizing then just as quickly as it appeared it vanished causing all to be completely confused. (This terminated end of April 2006, not sure of the exat start date)

Its not just a simple matter of saying ok do your 900 hours as our route structure is so varied with many changes of time zones and dubious rostering practices combined with vivid interpretations and ongoing massaging of our Flight Duty and Time Limitations.

This is why I would have liked to have had some hard figures on what goes on in other major international airlines so I could make a comparison.


edited April to reflect this years date