Airline training enquiry

[DeltaSix]

Hello everyone,
Would anyone know of an airline who can give me a type rating on the
737-400 in Asia and would let me fly with them at the same time for around 500 hours without locking me in a contract (bond) as my employer would be paying for the type rating ? I have a CPL + ATPL subjects. TT is 1,500+.

Thanks

Deltasix

[Thermal Image]

Hello everyone,
Would anyone know of an airline who can give me a type rating on the
737-400 in Asia and LOFT at the same time for around 500 hours without locking me in a contract as my employer would be paying for it ? I have a CPL + ATPL subjects. TT is 1,500+.
Thanks
Deltasix

Not quite sure what you are asking. Your one-sentence question has a number of sub-issues.

Confirm:

1. You are employed.

2. Your employer wants to pay an airline to give you a type rating and well as 500 hours of LOFT? Can you actually do 500 hours of LOFT? What airline does 500 hours of LOFT?

3. Or are you asking to be seconded to an airline for about 500 hours, after your type rating, to gain experience? That would mean about at least 6 months of flying, at an average of 80 hours a month.

4. In addition, regardless of whether I have understood you correctly, you want the prospective airline who is going to train you, to make this arrangement without even so much as a contract?

[DeltaSix]

Thermal Image, sorry for being a bit vague. But option 3 is what I meant.

And yes I am employed flying a turbo prop.


D6

[Thermal Image]

OK, now that I'm slightly clearer that you wish to be seconded until you run up 500 hours, may I ask:

3a. In the meantime your (existing / "previous") employer who hired you to fly turboprops, now pays for the type rating and also continues to pay you while you are gaining experience on your new type rating?

3b. In other words the airline giving you the chance to clock 500 hours, pays you nothing? Or do they pay you whatever a newly rated low timer would get?

3c. You want to have all these unusual arrangements made out, without so much as a contract?

Have you come across such an arrangement elsewhere with other low timers? Or have you thought this up yourself?

[DeltaSix]

T.I.

3a & b. I will not be paid while on training by my employer.
I will have to be self-funded during this time and yes, they are paying for the type rating. So, much to my disappointment, I will have to cough up the doe-re-mi somewhere, somehow to make ends meet while trying to clock the 500 hours.

c. When I said "not being locked in a contract" I meant being bonded. As I might not be able to stay for that period ( e.g. 5 years)

If for some reason I find an employer during this time, I will have to repay the funds used for my endorsement to my employer.

This was suggested by a close friend of mine who did the same thing but is unable to help me with a name ( airline or contact ).

Hope this helps

D6

[Thermal Image]

T.I.
3a & b. I will not be paid while on training by my employer.
I will have to be self-funded during this time and yes, they are paying for the type rating. So, much to my disappointment, I will have to cough up the doe-re-mi somewhere, somehow to make ends meet while trying to clock the 500 hours.
c. When I said "not being locked in a contract" I meant being bonded. As I might not be able to stay for that period ( e.g. 5 years)
If for some reason I find an employer during this time, I will have to repay the funds used for my endorsement to my employer.
This was suggested by a close friend of mine who did the same thing but is unable to help me with a name ( airline or contact ).
Hope this helps
D6

D6

Looks like I still don't quite understand you.

You want to continue to be in the employ of Boss A, who will pay for your type rating from Boss B? But you also say "self funded" - what exactly does that mean, because you then say - "they are paying for the type rating". Presumably after you are checked out someone either Boss A or B will pay you some kind of salary whilst you work for Boss B and accumulate 500 hours on type? But to add to the confusion, you say you are self funded during training, and then you say they (who? A or B?) are paying for your type rating, because in your first post, you refer to "airline" and then "my employer" as though they are 2 different parties.

The way you so loosely refer to a contract as a bond, and how you describe clocking up 500 hours experience on type as "LOFT", is going to cause you a lot of grief if you don't understand what you are saying.

A bond is a contract, a contract may be include a bond component, but a contract IS NOT (interchangeably) a bond.

All job offers involve a contract; some contracts include a bond. Some bonds are to ensure you don't run off after being type rated at the expense of your employer, or they may be for good behaviour (if you are already rated) or they may be for a combination of both. Some airlines don't bond you but still pay upfront on your behalf for your type rating - and then they deduct a portion of your salary over maybe 24 months to repay for the rating costs.

If you are bonded and you need to break it ahead of the expiry, what is normally done is that you repay the cash component of the balance of service outstanding. If, for example, the training cost is valued at $100,000 to be "repaid" with 5 years service, then if in the 4th year you want to leave, you normally pay back 1/5, in this case $20,000.

Whatever it is, no airline (this part of the world) hands out ratings for nothing in return. Either a period of service, or cash to be deducted from salary, or both.

And LOFT is something done in a simulator, and even if not done in a simulator, is rarely going to exceed one session (4 hours), once or at most twice a year. Hardly the 500 hours you are looking for.

After you are qualified and clocking the 500 hours time-on-type that you seek, you will be getting a real salary, not a training allowance. I can't see what is so difficult about living within your means at this stage. And why are you looking for only 500 hours? Someone with only 500hrs on type is not particularly attractive to an airline.

Your arrangement of wanting to remain with Boss A, have him pay for your rating, whilst you work for Boss B, looks unnecessarily complicated. Why not just quit Boss A and work straight off for Boss B? Or am I misunderstanding you? I'm tired of trying to unravel your situation. Please state clearly what your question is. One condition per sentence, please. When you stack multiple scenarios into one question, any permutation of those scenarios can exist and the question becomes impossible to answer.

[DeltaSix]

Okay T.I. sorry to confuse you further so, let me try again.

I guess to make it a bit more clearer I have to start at the beginning as to why I am searching for this and cut out the other unnecessary info.

Here goes.....

An airline in Asia did this for my friend ( let's call him David ) a year or so ago.

This airline gave David a type rating which he paid for himself. After the type rating was finished, they let him sit as F/O in their 737 for 500 hours without getting paid but for an allowance. David paid for his accomodation, food, and others out of his own pocket.

They did not bond him as he paid for the type rating himself. After the 500 hours was up, he came back to Australia.

This is what I am looking for. It's just that I am not paying for the endorsement myself but someone else is and Not necessarily would stop at 500 hours if given the opportunity to add more.

I don't have the exact details of David's contract that he signed with the Asian airline but I am quite sure that it did not include being bonded for the obvious reason being that he paid for his own training/ type rating.

I apologise if I have missed something again but this is as simple as I can explain it.


D6

[Thermal Image]

Okay T.I. sorry to confuse you further so, let me try again.
I guess to make it a bit more clearer I have to start at the beginning as to why I am searching for this and cut out the other unnecessary info.
Here goes.....
An airline in Asia did this for my friend ( let's call him David ) a year or so ago.
This airline gave David a type rating which he paid for himself. After the type rating was finished, they let him sit as F/O in their 737 for 500 hours without getting paid but for an allowance. David paid for his accomodation, food, and others out of his own pocket.
They did not bond him as he paid for the type rating himself. After the 500 hours was up, he came back to Australia.
This is what I am looking for. It's just that I am not paying for the endorsement myself but someone else is and Not necessarily would stop at 500 hours if given the opportunity to add more.
I don't have the exact details of David's contract that he signed with the Asian airline but I am quite sure that it did not include being bonded for the obvious reason being that he paid for his own training/ type rating.
I apologise if I have missed something again but this is as simple as I can explain it.
D6

Perfect!

Now with the example I understand.

And so too I hope, anyone else reading this.

Although with my limited knowledge of other airlines and how they arrange their training may not be helpful to you, let's hope someone else reads this and throws up some leads.

It does sound like exploitation / prostituting yourself though. Soon enough someone will come in and flame you for even thinking about such an arrangement.

[DeltaSix]

T.I., for a minute there I thought you had a lead from all the questions you were throwing at me.

Prostituting myself ?.... Someone else is paying for my type rating, and getting hours and not paying for it ( as some pays for ICUS ) is hardly that.

Not getting paid for it was a difficult decision as I am still employed by the mob who is paying for the type rating. I can't have two employers. It's a conflict of interest.

If someone would employ me as F/O without the jet hours then I'll leave Boss A.


D6

[mebro]

Where do I start, I can't help but laugh at human nature, as to how dubious one can be for personal gain.

Delta 6, your ingridients for this cocktail has been, truth laced with contracdicting statements for an after taste (cas until u read the thread a few times, one can't get the real picture) , key ingridient-lots of only the freshest kind of naive ideas, and a dash of truth here and there.

I will be harsh on you D6, cas u need to get it very clear what u'r suggesting is not on and I will remind u this again at the end of the post. Not in anyway to say that there may or may not be an airline willing to entertain u'r terms and conditions to suit u but I sincerely doubt it.

Thermal image it took me a while like u to figure out this puzzle as well and the example is exactly what D6 would like to do but he is been very very coy going about.

Lets start breaking this down:

D6 I refer to your phrase on one of your post "and yes, they are paying for the type rating. So, much to my disappointment" and

then you let a crucial bit of information out which catches u out red handed-that you are not telling the truth...."If for some reason I find an employer during this time, I will have to repay the funds used for my endorsement to my employer."---U have interlaced this with a twist to blaltently mislead cas u also said "Someone else is paying for my type rating, and getting hours and not paying for it"

In other words put in simply for what ever reasons which doesn't need to be known your current employer is willing to give you a loan to do a type rating, to help you progress in your chosen career -there is nothing wrong in that..and what a great deal/break for u but you will have to pay the money back to u'r current employer once u find employment based on the TR

D6 going back to u'r example, which is what u want to do irrespective of how and who pays for the TR you would preferrably do it with an airline who will turn around and give a job to get the benchmark 500 hrs on type which most airlines ask for without a commitment to stay or commit till such time as u get the 500 hrs u want and then u go where ever u want....NOTHING wrong in looking at this option

you are self exploiting u'r self, But the SINFUL thing is you wanting to work for free to get this 500 hrs (and yes u'r are trying to prostitute u'r self) but EXPECTING to be paid per-diem to help offset u'r day to day living cost and then the atrocity to tell Thermal image his views are so wrong and I quote u D6 "Prostituting myself ?.... Someone else is paying for my type rating, and getting hours and not paying for it ( as some pays for ICUS ) is hardly that"

against TI's quote "It does sound like exploitation / prostituting yourself though. Soon enough someone will come in and flame you for even thinking about such an arrangement"

D6 you are warrped in your head to think, along the lines of ICUS which is commonly done is Australia, i.e.paid for by a pilot wanting to get hrs in a particular aeroplane type to gain employment, taking this to an all new level that is an airline without understanding the concept of LOFT and JUSTIFYING it by saying I am not paying for it.

D6 u'r quote "Not getting paid for it was a difficult decision as I am still employed by the mob who is paying for the type rating. I can't have two employers. It's a conflict of interest" the only conflict is the direction u want to go without losing the safety of your current employment.

D6 your original post should have read something like this ....I have funds to do a TR, is there an airline out there who will type me, give me a job as F/O, however I will only commit till I get my 500 hrs, by the way you (the airline) will not have to pay me during the period I work for u to get the 500 hrs but I expect a per-diem to help me out with daily expenses..........is there any airline who will accept my selffish terms and conditions so I can get ahead in my career.

Nothing short of my last paragraph is what u'r thought process and intentions are ..deny it all u want if u choose to do that u'r kidding no one else but u'r self.

Please forget the idea of working for free, u will destroy the industry, it's already tough in GA but u wanting to take this to a higher level into an airline is just out right selfish and not acceptable in the industry

So get this idea outta u'r head and if u ca't get someone close to u to bang u on that brain of u'rs so get it ..IT'S NOT ON !!!!!!

By all means do look at all possible avenues to progress including self funding a TR, but there is not short cut in aviation or life for that matter

[DeltaSix]

Mebro,

A man's gotta do what he's gotta do..... you have your opinion on what I am about to do and I respect that. I am not after a short cut, but a hard way of getting through it as my doors are limited. You don't know my whole situation so don't go judging me on what I am about to do - you have not earned that - I don't even know you.

You are making it look like I am hiding something, well, think again before you go judging me.

You don't like what I'm about to do then tough !!! Way I look at it, go hard or go home.

To the others, can I please just get some suggestions and not more of this cr*p.


D6

[GlueBall]

The theory is flawed in that a respectable airline wouldn't want to be identified by the public as engaging unpaid, temporarily employed "trainees" in the cockpit. :ouch:

[mebro]

Glue Ball thanx for making the statement I had in my mind to write and eventually since it was a long post it slipped my mind, d6 think about it no pax will fly that airline once that news come out and in other words that airline will close shop.

D6 you did not read my post, do me a favour take a lil bit more time to slowly read the post again and then u will realise the only critisicm I had was u wanting to work for free but denying it in your posts

D6 the things I posted is not my opinion but things u did not want to say bluntly, I did it for u with the information u posted on this topic, sure I do not know u'r whole situation and you will have the lovely opportunity to make a CHOICE in your life, for better or for worse u will have that choice

I will just higlight what I said, see if u get it, nothing wrong in looking at self funding a TR and then knocking on airlines doors for a job but u wanting to do it for free is a bad trend ( put it shortly u will never have the opportunity to set this trend in any airline...a professional one anyway).

Given the situation in South East Asia, India, China and the middle East the likely chances of u getting a job is good after u self fund a TR and guess what with that when u go knockin on doors with a TR someone will pick u up and pay u but keep on telling them u want to do it for free u will never get to smell that seat.

Do read my post again as I said befor if u interploate it as crap it is going to be crap.

Good luck !!!!!!

[ExMAS]

It's pretty obvious that the flaw is not limited to just the theory.

D6, you might want to re-think the whole thing, with logic.

[DeltaSix]

Point taken.

I'll be looking into Asia for a right seat job - the usual way.

Thanks everyone

D6

[ACP]

Hi Delta6,

I have been in your situation so here is the reality if you wish to fly a jet (even in Asia):
Even if you have +2000 TT, they won't even look at you because they already have a list of type rated guys with no experience on type waiting in front of their door. So the first thing is to get the type rating, then you are in the game. It's sad but paying for our type rating is now the standard of a pilot training. The airline will never take time to discuss with you if you are not already type rated even if you say that you are willing to work for free...
Once you get your jet rating and apply to airlines, you will realize that their first question is: ''how many hours on type do you have?''. Then you become aware that having 300 hours on type is a must. I have tried to deal with airlines for over a year after my A320 rating saying that I was willing to work for free, it didn't work. A friend of mine put his name on the list of Eaglejet for a 737 line training in Asia. He had to wait for a year before joining the program because a lot of guys (already type rated) are willing to pay for their first 300 hours on type. That's what I did and I do not regret because I am now paid for flying a jet and the salary is not so bad!
So be aware that it is really difficult to get those 500 hours even if you are willing to fly for free, most low-costs in Asia have contracts with TRTOs or eaglejet...
Good luck!

[DeltaSix]

Thanks for that ACP. Please check your PM.


D6

[typhoonpilot]

It's sad but paying for our type rating is now the standard of a pilot training.

This is the major problem. If nobody was willing to do what D6 and many others do then the standard would have to change. Airlines would have to pay for training. Too many selfish/stupid rich little brats running around paying for a jet job. Those who do this do nothing but harm the profession of an airline pilot and degrade our pay and working conditions. Pathetic :mad:


Typhoonpilot

[jeronimo]

This is the major problem. If nobody was willing to do what D6 and many others do then the standard would have to change. Airlines would have to pay for training. Too many selfish/stupid rich little brats running around paying for a jet job. Those who do this do nothing but harm the profession of an airline pilot and degrade our pay and working conditions. Pathetic :mad:
Typhoonpilot

That's exactly what I think, typhoon! too many little rich brads.

I don't have any type rating, and so I am out of the game:{
Do you think guys, the standard will change a day (like it used to be)?...waiting for the "Boom", but maybe it will be too late for me.
that's so sad, the standard are so high now.