Advice sought; conduct unbecoming?

[Underahat]

I'm looking for a little bit of anonymous advice. I've found out recently that a bloke I know quite well in one of the services has been misbehaving in his post. He's been using his position of authority to start some relationships with women under his control. Due to his job, they're not people under his direct command but people whose careers he has very direct control over. I'm no expert but very sure it amounts to harrassment.

I didn't think it was much of my business until I found out a close friend was involved, and now the angry Englishman in me wants the bloke strung up. I've not been in the forces very long at all so thought that a bit of anonymous advice might be sensible. Does this happen lots? Should I wind my neck in? Or should I speak to some people?

Sorry for being vague. Help via PMs or replies here much appreciated.

[ZH875]

sounds like you could get the answer from the newspaper you sound like you write for.

Harrasment is a personal thing and there are rules and guidelines laid down for ALL to follow. If the people concerned feel they are being harrased, they have a clear path to state their case. Nothing anonymous is required.

[Underahat]

Not a journo; just a guy in flying training keen my QFIs don't identify me! The woman in question's a civilian, so has no information nor any clear line to take. On top of that, she doesn't want her partner involved, or finding out. As I say, I wasn't sure if a third party like me should get involved to try and draw attention to this person and stop him carrying on, or if I should just wind my neck in?

[ZH875]

The woman in question's a civilian, so has no information nor any clear line to take The MOD has clear rules for service people and civilians alike. Perhaps she should go to the Civvy Admin office and read the info. It should also be available in her normal place of work.

If you are certain that this is a case of harrasment, then you have a duty of care to report it, why should it matter if other QFI's know who you are, if they offer any antagonism for the release of this information then that WOULD be harrasment.

[Anita Bush]

You must tell someone. Failure to report is seen to be just as bad as actually doing the deed.

Take a deep breath and go and see OC PMS.

Anita

[Underahat]

Thanks for the replies. Anita, I've PMed you briefly.

[Flatus Veteranus]

He's been using his position of authority to start some relationships with women under his control

Underahat

If these "relationships" were started without the consent of the ladies, then, surely, that is rape or indecent assault.

Be careful. One lady's "harassment" is another's banter. I would suggest that any complaint should come from the "victim" and not from you.

[Pontius Navigator]

FV, actually <<I would suggest that any complaint should come from the "victim" and not from you.>> is out of date.

Take a case of an off-colour joke at the expense of say an Indian. No offence taken by the the subject but a bystander can be offended and successfully claim harassment.

In this case our observer is affronted by what is seen as inappropriat behaviour. Going to OC PMS may be a bit heavy. The padre is often valuable in this area and more private too.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

hat,

Good on you for maintaining standards... I hope it's a mis-interpretation on your part, but if it isnt I hope the chap involved gets his @rse kicked

[Strictly Jungly]

Contact an Equal Opportunities Advisor at your unit for further advice.
YOU should not be treated any differently, in a professional sense, for taking any action.

If people conduct themselves correctly then they should have nothing to worry about, should they?

Regards,

[effortless]

YOU should not be treated any differently, in a professional sense, for taking any action.
If people conduct themselves correctly then they should have nothing to worry about, should they?


In an ideal world of course but I wonder what has happened to those who have blown the whistle. I hope that the RAF has changed but judging from the support a young officer got after he hung his watch uninvited on a woman's bedpost, well, I have my tin hat on.

[scottishbeefer]

A relationship - what does that mean? Not at all the same thing as harassment, according to your sketchy info. Does what happen lots - relationships? I think that men and women start "relationships" in all walks of life, not just the military. Perhaps you can't manage the banter level of your colleague and you're cheesed off.

Concur with ZH875 - thus far it merely sounds like the the bobbin' of the bait on the journo's hook.

Do you wish it was you who was able to start a a relationship U'hat?!

If by some miracle you are in the Services then do one or more of the following:
1 - Head down and get flying
2 - Tell your QFI then Flt Cdr about what you've "seen". Don't go straight to OC PMS with out the Sqn Boss being in the know.

[brakedwell]

I'm with scottishbeefer, concentrate on the flying training and keep it under your hat.

[TBSG]

I'm with scottishbeefer, concentrate on the flying training and keep it under your hat.

If you are an officer then you deserve to lose your commission with an attitude like that. scottishbeefer gave you 2 choices and you took the wrong one. If there is an indication of wrongdoing then you are duty bound to do something about it. It could amound to gross misconduct, which cannot be tolerated in the Services. Most people on this thread would seem to agree.

Think about it from the other half - how does the victim feel? How would he/she like to believe that all those around him/her want to brush it under tha carpet? Is that person in a position to be able to do anything about it? We are not civilians, we are military and we live by different rules. Abuse of power is bad. If you don't like it, f#ck off to another job.

[brakedwell]

If you are an officer then you deserve to lose your commission with an attitude like that. scottishbeefer gave you 2 choices and you took the wrong one. If there is an indication of wrongdoing then you are duty bound to do something about it. If you don't like it f#ck off to another job, .
Thanks for those kind words TBSG. I can't f#ck off to another job as I have hung up my headset for good after 40 years of flying. Your profile is blank, but it's obvious you are not an officer! If I am wrong then it appears that a sense of humour is no longer a requirement in the Royal Air Force.
I also think underhat is a fake. His phrasing doesn't ring true > I've found out recently that a bloke I know quite well in ONE OF THE SERVICES has been misbehaving in his post - He's been using his position of authority to start some relationships with women UNDER HIS CONTROL. I'VE NOT BEEN IN THE FORCES very long at all so thought that a bit of anonymous advice might be sensible. He also claims to be JUST A GUY IN FLYING TRAINING keen my QFIs don't identify me! Why post such rubbish on a forum like this? Aunt Agatha's Agony Column in the Peoples' Friend would be more appropriate!

[Brit55]

I agree with Brakedwell,

the initial post on this thread does not ring true at all, far too vague and poorly written. Defo a journo :mad: scumbag.

If it is true, and underhat is indeed a commissioned officer then perhaps he should take a hard look at himself and decide on whether or not he is fit to hold his rank. He's not showing much potential so far!

[jacketp]

You have a moralistic obligation and professional obligation to report anybody that you deem as acting in an inapproriate way, this is regardless if you know the person, work for them or yourself feel pressurised into keeping this information quiet. A number of people have posted threads here which mention 'sense of humour' ,'keep your hat on' that is such an awful and wholely unacceptable attitude and not one becoming of anyhbody that is in a position of authority (ie Officer). Just think if something happened and you hadn't spoken up....what would that say about you?
You can call an equal opportunities/harrassment phone number, speak to OC PSF,OC PMS, Chf Clk, speak to your Flt Cdr or Sqn Cdr, Padre, SSAFA Social Worker, anything you tell people should be taken serious and you should not be treated any differently for highlighting a potential problem. My only other piece of advise is try to get the individual herself to make the complaint, or maybe you could both go together?

[airborne_artist]

Brit55 and others - you do have to wonder why a journo would post such a Q though?

[Tourist]

jacketp,
Yes you are right, and then we should all hug trees and sing kumbayaa.

[brakedwell]

You have a moralistic obligation and professional obligation to report anybody that you deem as acting in an inapproriate way, this is regardless if you know the person, work for them or yourself feel pressurised into keeping this information quiet.
What is a "moralistic" obligation, apart from being a classic example of PC speak?
As for shopping colleagues, I have never approved of poking my nose into other people's personal lives. It's up to the "wronged" party to report any abuse or harrassment from superiors. In the present climate of political correctness it won't be long before the Stasi is refomed and given an office on every RAF station so that snitches with grievances have somewhere to scuttle to when they feel aggrieved.
airborne_artist. Maybe not a journo, definately not a U/T pilot, how about a troll in a big girl's blouse?

[scottishbeefer]

Why wouldn't a journo make a post? Slow day at the Sleaford Gazette?!

[jacketp]

It is not a case of PC speak, it is doing the right thing, why do people have to feel worried about supporting people and why is it wrong to be PC? It could be that the 'accussed' has done no wrong doing and that the person in question is making false and unfounded accusations, by taking the official route instead of talking about it (and possibly spreading romours), it will either put a stop to the wrong doings or stop people making false accusations.

[OOpsIdiditagain]

Underahat
The MOD has a clear set of guidelines on how civilians can make complaints. They are very similar to those for service personnel. I'd advise the lady to contact her civilian line manager and get hold of the regulations and make her own complaint.
I complained recently of harrassment and bullying and despite an ultimate win I believe you can never win when you take on your chain of command. Giver her the advice and don't get involved. Your own bosses may not forgive you either publically or privately.

[tonkatechie]

The answer is quite simple - advise your friend to look at one of the numerous anti harrassment poster stuck up at most places of work, and almost definately in SHQs, note down the relevant number (either the one for service personnel or MOD civilians) then call it. You don't have to give away your personal details to get advice on whether someone's doing something wrong - and at least you know that the advice you receive is both confidential and official (unlike whatever those of us here are saying!). The only other thing to do is to take a close look at yourself and your own standards - it's either harassment or it's not, what difference does it make that you now know someone involved personally? I would expect a lot higher standard from an officer. Hell, I'd expect better from anyone I work with.:(

[tucumseh]

Hmm, lots of advice here, but the unfortunate fact is that, at the very highest level in the MoD, such occurrences are condoned. The complainant is more likely to be disciplined. In this case, as it would be a civvy complaining about a serving officer, the civvy cannot complain to her own Personnel/HR/Welfare etc, but must do so to a more senior officer in the “offender’s” Service. This senior officer need not know either party and is permitted to make a ruling without taking or considering evidence. (Same applies in civvy vs. civvy).

My advice to this unfortunate lady would be that, if she wants to continue her career in the MoD, she politely seeks another posting. This is the formal advice most often given in these cases. Alternatively, get a good digital recorder and gather evidence that way. I wish her luck.

For the record, I don’t agree with most of the above, but it is underpinned by formal rulings, obtained under FOI.

[Underahat]

Thanks for the advice. It sounds like a chat to the padre and my friendly OC PSF might not be a bad place to start. I'm sorry the initial post was too vague; if I mentioned this person's post, even generally, I thought I'd be pointing the finger too specifically. Anyone who thinks they could help, feel free to get in touch. I'll happily try to prove I'm genuine and discuss further.

[Tigs2]

Underahat (or is it Underaspell?)
everyone has a different side to a story. You talk about relationships, well they are not one night stands and take two to tango. Do you have affections for said woman yourself? and therefore wish to leap in because you feel Jealous? The woman sounds old enough to make her own decision, could
just be telling you a slightly different story to hide other things/feelings perhaps?

I was once at a unit where a guy thought his girlfriend may have been carrying on with her boss, he confronted his girlfriend who claimed harrassment and it 'is not her fault', in the middle of a fairly large tiff i may add. The boyfriend told girlfriend she must complain or loose him, so she did. Her boss who had an exemplary carrer was given a 24 hour posting. They arranged an invesigation, 3 months later the female admitted that it was all a fabrication caused by the pressure of the other party. All too late, because S**T sticks (ask Matthew Kelly), the officer (excellent conduct) never returned to post, he lost his wife and family, because his wife believed he had been adultorous and all because somebod stuck their nose in when it shouldnt have been done.

If YOU witness impropriety or unacceptable behaviour you have a duty to intervene and act. If you hear 3rd or 4th hand then tread very very carefully. 'Relationships' are complex emotional things where all is not always as it seems.

DO NOT go to friendly OC PSF unless you have 100% proof, evidence (and that means from both sides), you then involve them (OC PSF)in an issue that could just be nothing. If it is something and genuine, then the woman concerned can act without fear of job loss/ career loss etc.

[Stacker101]

Well press or not, who cares? Some helpful comments would help either way. As a Flight Cdr of a few airmen over the years the rules are quite straightforward. It’s called the "Airforce Test" in a nutshell this is: Do they work for you? Yes=Bad:\ .. Are you offering them favours using your rank? Yes=Bad.:\ . If they are not in your chain, you cannot influence there work etc then crack on, Section 8 of the European Human Rights Act covers this and it applies to the military. If said lady finds attentions etc unwarranted, harassment is as she perceives it nobody else!!
Yes OC PSF will offer you informal advice but remember mud sticks and if you get this wrong you will upset a lot of people, not a great start to your RAF career. There is also a total confidential RAF Harassment help line, no names, no units etc where they will give you chapter and verse.
Either way be careful as it’s a delicate area to stick your nose into!! Hope this is of some help??:ok:

[Max Contingency]

A large amount of garbage being thrown up on this thread.

The Service Test. When considering possible cases of social misconduct, and in determining whether the Service has a duty to intervene in the personal lives of its personnel, Commanding Officers at every level must consider each case against the following Service Test:

"Have the actions or behaviour of an individual adversely impacted or are they likely to impact on the efficiency or operational effectiveness of the Service?"

Most sexual relationships, when considered against this criteria, pass the test. In such cases the MOD has no more rights to intervene than a Supermarket would have over any 2 consenting adults in their employ. Sad but true!

[Flatus Veteranus]

I had a few years experience of the civil service after retiring from the RAF. The civil service prided iself on being an "equal opportunities employer". My experience was that, for every lady who felt herself harassed by her seniors, another one quite blatantly tried to advance her career on her back. Some succeeded to the point that one wondered how they had reached their grade and the only obvious answer lay in their physical attributes. And their "mentors" were often military!.

[allan907]

Tigs2's advice is very erudite, sensible and worth following. In my service career (and afterwards) I've seen too many lives destroyed by interference from 3rd parties. If the woman has a complaint then it is up to her to voice it.

[Pontius Navigator]

I would contend, but not necessarily in this case, that a third party has as much 'right' to be offended and to complain.

For instance if the 'photocopier clerk' and the 'chief cook and bottle washer' had something going and it was patently obvious, all luvvy dovvey like, then this might annoy my maiden aunt.

Said Aunt would feel harassed by this untoward and unbecoming signs of affection in the work place. She would be quite in order to complain.

FV, see PM.

[PMA's Toy]

I've recently found myself in a situation very very similar to Underahat. I have a female friend blatantly harassed by a male officer, and she's unwilling to do anything because he controls her career advancement.

Think boss kissing subordinate during a 6000 debrief; or an Air Cadet officer kissing an over-18 cadet; or an AFCO boss kissing a candidate following a debrief; and you're not right, but you're not far wrong.

Acceptable? No. Does she "work" for him? Technically. Does she feel harassed? Yes. Is she worried about what might happen? Damn right.

I'd encourage Underahat to find out as much as he can, but if he's right, hang the bastard out to dry.

Anyone who knows about how the RAF handle harrasment claims, I'd appreciate some help I could possibly pass on.

[Tigs2]

PMAs Toy
i am worried by your reply that you are in the admin chain! This has got NOTHING TO DO with underahat, so stop the witch hunt. Let the woman concerned sort it out.

[Sunfish]

With the greatest of respect underahat, the way harassmentallegations actually work is that everyone associated with the matter will have their careers truncated. That means you, the girl, the alleged harrasser, and anyone else silly enough to put their oar inirrespective of the rights or wrongs of the allegation.

I know its not fair, but large organisations simply do not want to have to deal with such matters and have a tendency to shoot the messengers as well as the guilty and innocent parties.

You will be labelled as a "busy body" and woe betide you if the harasser either gets away with it or the girl succumbs to pressure and does not proceed with a complaint. Your career will be terminated for "lack of judgement".

The most likely outcome if the woman is a civilian contractor is that she will be offered a modest sum of money to go away. If she refuses that, then she will be made to prove her case, with the odds stacked against her because of the authorities fondness for "natural justice" and "procedural fairness", that is unless the blighter concerned has had it coming to him for a long time and the authorities knives have already been sharpened.

Translation: This is a "no win" situation, especially for you.

[Mead Pusher]

PMA's Toy - the situation that you are describing would be harassment as long as (as you claim) the individual concerned feels offended, humiliated, frightened and/or threatened. In this case she needs to take action.

Initially the recommendation would normally be to resolve the issue informally by confronting the individual concerned and making her feelings known to them (with a friend present). However, I realise that sometimes individuals do not feel able to do this - and in this case they should approach the next person up in the chain of command. She should also start to keep a written record of events, including date and time, what happened, who else witnessed it, how she felt and what she did (if anything) to try to remedy the situation.

If informal action fails then she needs to speak to the EO Advisor (normally OC PMS) and seek advice. Again, informal action would be the first method tried, but if necessary formal action can take place. If it comes to formal action then the individual will be required to submit a redress of complaint in accordance with QR1000 to the Stn Cdr - the EO Advisor can help with this. An investigating officer will then be appointed (outside the chain of command) and evidence will be gathered and collated into a report which is then presented to a deciding officer (Wg Cdr upwards, normally). The deciding officer will then either support or reject the complaint and decide on admin or disciplinary action as appropriate. Investigations should be completed within 30 days where possible. Redress action must be taken within 3 months of the last incident occuring.

If she is unhappy with the outcome it can be appealed, but the punishment cannot be contested if the complaint has been upheld. Further action is possible, but only by going to an Employment Tribunal, and this has to be done within 6 months less one day of the last incident.

That lot is chapter and verse from the RAF Harassment and Bullying guide, but I have personal experience of the system as I was an investigating officer for a complaint once. The complaint was upheld and one individual received a formal warning. The person who made the complaint did not suffer any victimisation to my knowledge, although she was a civilian.

My advice (as others have said) would be to speak to the Padre, EO Advisor or SSAFA Social Worker before doing anything else.

[tucumseh]

Mead Pusher

I agree that everything you say is lifted straight out of the book. However, this is routinely treated as broad guidelines, not rules, and there are formal written rulings that qualify the following points:

“with a friend present” – Management may initiate interviews/meetings/disciplinary action without the presence of a representative or prior warning that action is being considered. (This applies to both parties i.e. you may be disciplined even though you are the claimant and your case is sound/proven).

“She should also start to keep a written record of events, including date and time, what happened, who else witnessed it, how she felt and what she did (if anything) to try to remedy the situation” – The existence of written evidence or witnesses (and even an admission of the offence by the offender) may be discounted by any investigating officer, who need not even acknowledge the existence of the evidence or admission.

“Investigations should be completed within 30 days where possible” – An investigation is not time constrained. Also, what constitutes an “investigation” is not defined, but the IO is under no obligation to hear or seek evidence. Nor need he explain his ruling.

Information obtained under FOI. You’ll agree it defies natural justice, but that is no grounds for complaint either. (Please don’t shoot me, I’m just the messenger, but the rules allow you to).

[FJJP]

It would be a very silly investigating officer if he did not listen to or read EVERYTHING connected with the complaint. He could leave himself wide open to further complaint [inadequate investigation, bias, etc].

The only way for him to do it is to report everything and justify each of his decisions. That way, further up the chain can see that a full and thorough investigation has taken place, and the final decision reached has been fully justified by the facts presented.

[Tourist]

If you aren't tough enough to deal with your own problems then don't join the military, or worse, do a civilianised job that should be military. What kind of use are you going to be in a war if you cry about a bit of bullying.
Grow up