BA Citiexpress (pseudo) Sponsorship? [Archive]

SMOOTHFLIER

6th Feb 2006, 16:56

Hey any body else out there go through the first phase of this and been sent out questions to reply to?

Can somebody explain how the finance works? do you have to fund the entire course yourself or is there any form of sponsorship?
If you pay for it yourself then i assume they expect you to take out a bank loan? If this is the case then currently career development loans only go up to a maximum of £55K. Probably need about 7oK to complete the integrated course so where does the extra 15K come from?

jb5000

6th Feb 2006, 17:24

BBVA bank in London has dealt with FTE before, and will loan you the whole amount. If you PM me I'll email you the standard pack they send out.

Beware though, the repayments look very frightening!

adwjenk

6th Feb 2006, 18:16

Hi

From the sound of the course it seems to be a mentored program, and you pay yourself. Yet have job offer before you start training
Yet you should get a course reduction on the price since BACX could claim the VAT back on the course so you get 17.5% off the price of the course. Do not quote me on that though please i know thats what happend with Excel and Thomas Cook when they ran the schemes with OAT. You may also be able to get the loan unsecured since you will have emplyment at the end of the course.

Still ive had no joy with BACX since im just outside the age range, so im setteling for OAT in the summer.

The info is a bit scetch, so please dont quote me please feel free to correct me on any aspects :ok:

Good luck to everyone who goes for it

ADWJENK

97robem

7th Feb 2006, 12:20

Hi guys.

I got the questions sent to me and have answered them and sent them back about a week ago.
Has anyone heard anything regarding getting through to the BACX stage at Manchester? The questions are sent out to all the people who meet the minimum requirements so I dont know the distribution of standard of the applicants that have applied probably vast from people with just GCSEs to those with first class honours, what type of qualifications / experience do you guys have?

Just so we can all see what are own prospects are of proceeding with the scheme.

Wannabe24

7th Feb 2006, 12:36

The following response is based on my views about the recent FlyBE 'mentored' pilot scheme. Just adapted for BACX...FTE's current cost for their integrated course is £63,216 (today's Euro to Pound rate).

According to PPJN.com, year 1 on turboprops gets you £20,808

Year.............Pay

Year 1........... £20,808
then add a measly £800 a year until year 12...

Year 12......... £29,589

For those that go into this with very small funds you are looking at a £60,000 loan minimum with interest this is going to cost you £84,000 over 12 years or £583.33 every month for 12 years. FTE/BACX are not advertising the tax free part of it like OAT did for Excel and TCX so rest assured it probably won't be the case. Anyway, if you want to pay it back in 6 years (which I think most sensible human beings would want) you will have to fork out £1,000 per month. All this out of your own salary. How can anyone manage £1,000 for a loan, £500-700 for rent/mortgage, £200 on outgoings for 5 years on an average salary of £23,000!

This kind of approach cannot work with a BACX turboprop salary. It's madness paying out that sum of money to guarantee a job which will pay you a mediocre salary for 12 years. Those that are successful at getting through, don't think you are lucky in anyway as your finances will be ****-poor for the next 10 years. Think ahead is my advice.

Why not spend £35,000 going the modular route, if it takes you 2 years to find a flying job so what.... Live a little, work in another field. Remember, no airline is going to employ you if it's your first job after leaving college! If you're on a crappy salary like the BACX one for 5 years then at least your not an extra £40,000 in debt.

edymonster

7th Feb 2006, 15:36

I have also replied to the answers and heard nothing now for a wekk and a half. I have got GCSEs and A levels and doing a degree in avaition managment and operations. Did you guys get an email confirming they had recieved your answers?

window-seat

7th Feb 2006, 17:39

Wannabe24,

Anyone starting on the Dash 8 fleet will most likely find themselves sitting in the 145 after approx 12 months. Salary then jumps to approx £34,000 plus flight pay which aint too shaby all things considered! It may not pay well, but the dash is by far the most fun to fly - so enjoy the experience if you get the chance.

good luck

W-S

Craggenmore

7th Feb 2006, 17:41

Its ab-initio, run at Jerez, you fund the course and if you meet there requirments you get a job at the end.

What a risk!!!

FTE, who will gladly take your money, knows full well that the airline may well be defunct by the time you would finish an integrated course from now. Several sceptics believe that WW will close it anyhow.

So once again, the only winner (again in this business at this level) is the FTO. Laughing all the way to the bank.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/airlines/story/0,,1683688,00.html

:rolleyes:

Re-Heat

8th Feb 2006, 10:32

FTE/BACX are not advertising the tax free part of it like OAT did for Excel and TCX
Perhaps as there is no VAT on flight training in Spain?

Wannabe24

8th Feb 2006, 11:14

Window-Seat,

If everyone moved on after 12 months, they wouldn't have any Senior FO's or Captains on the Dash fleet. Obviously I don't know the figures but I seriously doubt it if they would allow more than several Dash FO's to move on to the 145's each year.

craggenmoore,

Thanks for the link. Take a look at the news article you gullible wannabe's. FTE have realised that they can market their courses better if it was done using an airline's name and this is what the 'mentored' approach is really about. Don't fall for this new trap.

potkettleblack

8th Feb 2006, 12:07

Surely you wouldn't you be "locked in" to join Citi at the end of the course if you paid the fees yourself. Hence you could work hard on the course, knowing that there is a better than average chance of a job with Citi and then try for BA, BMI or the charters who have a history of taking integrated students if you could get better pay? I can't see how any bond system would be legal given that Citi won't be offering any consideration.

topcat450

8th Feb 2006, 15:09

You're not 'locked in' to CitiExpress, no, also re:

"Yet have job offer before you start training"

No you don't. It's a crock o'sh*te. Try getting a letter of intent off them before you start, or any sort of vague written confirmation. It won't happen. At the end, if they're in the mood and have spaces you may get priority over Joe Bloggs, but the airline is under no obligation whatsoever to offer you a position even if you come top of the course and pass everything first time with flying colour, they can just walk away and leave you jobless.

adwjenk

8th Feb 2006, 15:54

Seems like the only 1 getting anything out of this will be FTE :hmm:
Typical nowadays, it’s a shame really ow well. Maybe if you had written confirmation, but ow well its seems that this is the closest where going to get to sponsorships. A training captain checking in on you every once in a while!

MrHorgy

8th Feb 2006, 16:43

Can't help being glad I didnt apply now, modular CPL here we come :}

Horgy

window-seat

8th Feb 2006, 19:27

Wannabe24

Having been there myself not too long ago, I don't know any recent FO's who have remained on the Dash for much over 12 months without at least being offered a RHS on the 145 or RJ (possibly at another base). I flew the dash for 10 months before going on to the Embraer.

Company policy was to 'type freeze' FO's for 2 years, but due to the low salary, most of them would have disappeared once they had 500 hrs multi crew time!! Another issue was the fact that some new joiners were going straight onto the jets, and starting on around £12,000 pa more than the established Dash FO's! (which didn't go down too well)!:hmm:

Not sure what the latest policy is but wouldn't expect it to be much different.

W-S.

Re-Heat

9th Feb 2006, 15:51

Can't help being glad I didnt apply now, modular CPL here we come
How do you come up with that assessment? Most of the graduates are taken with minimal hours from FTE and Oxford by jet operators. How is wrapping it up with a bit of mentoring at all a bad thing? You gain from the extra business awareness, you gain from being ahead in the queue even if there are fewer jobs when you graduate, and it is wrapped up in one package with one training record from an established provider whose sole aim when it was started was to cater exactly for what British Airways required of its cadets.

I think that some opinions are somewhat utopic that the days of sponsorship will return again - this is the next best thing and should be chosen well above modular - if you are indeed in a position to be able to choose.

If everyone is so willing to pay to train for a licence, do you really expect a company to sponsor ever again?

MrHorgy

9th Feb 2006, 17:29

I think that some opinions are somewhat utopic that the days of sponsorship will return again - this is the next best thing and should be chosen well above modular - if you are indeed in a position to be able to choose.

The subject of integrated vs modular has been done to death, so I won't go into it here. But suffice to say your sentence sums it up perfectly. "If you can choose" - some of us don't have £65000 available to us. When I can go modular and save myself £35000 - which will buy me a new car AND a nice type rating on an aircraft of my choice, why should I succomb to the hype of going to a training school just because it's looked on slightly (and even that could be the basis for a flamewar) more favorably.

I object to the concept of integrated schools, I think they are money making empires setup by unscrupulous individuals who want to make simply that. Money. I fail to see how integrated can be twice as expensive as modular when the training is more or less the same.

And for what it's worth, I KNOW the days of true sponsorship are over.

Horgy

Re-Heat

9th Feb 2006, 17:53

Well that depends entirely upon your individual assessment of the financial costs and advantages in the long-run of going to either of course.

I think they are money making empires setup by unscrupulous individuals who want to make simply that. Money. I fail to see how integrated can be twice as expensive as modular when the training is more or less the same.
Oxford (Oxford Aviation Services Ltd) the trading company made £752k in 2003 and lost £10k in 2004. Hardly money hand over fist.

FTE was sold be BAe Systems as not being profitable enough and out of fit with their strategy.

Cabair (CCAT Ltd) appear to have made about £42k in the 17 months to 31/3/2005 with the group as a whole losing £73k.

I think that covers all the integrated schools. Care to dispute Companies House data?

Why is it more? One training record. Structured course. More aircraft. Simulators/fixed base FNPTII tools. Higher experience instructors. Continuity of training. You don't mess about having to build hours outside of a structure environment. No need to think about housing (for some schools). Services provided at more established airfields.

You may not value those, but that is not a matter for which anyone here pass judgement. They are the reason however that they cost more, and are more highly valued as a result by the employers. Equally the modular provider may provide a high standard of training, but on the factors such as contacts and facilities they may find it hard to compete.

If your objection however is to entrepreneurial companies making money, then words fail me - go to Cuba.

MrHorgy

9th Feb 2006, 18:01

I do not dispute Company House data, perhaps they don't make as much money as I thought, but I still object. More and more airlines pull people from integrated schools, so they become the toy of the rich, and those who can find £65000. What about the candidates that can't afford it, but may be superior to those who can? Eventually it'll come down to put up or shutup.

At the moment i'm happy doing it the way I think (my opinion) it should be done. I've done some of my PPL in the UK, some in the US. Now i'm hour building. I'm enjoying the flying, while i work it round my career as cabin crew. It doesn't work for everyone, but it works for me. My only issue is that just because I couldn't cough up the £65k, by the time I have my license there will be no modular students left that are accepted. And again, that's just my opinion.

Horgy

Re-Heat

9th Feb 2006, 18:20

I agree that it may appear unfair, but how might you alter the market for this expensive training without distorting the incentives to train? Limiting the market for training to CPL/IR to open vacancies in airlines will drive up the price beyond what it is now, and opening it up to lower cost training will induce too many people to train when at present too many are anyway.

Selection is the answer, but money talks, and where people can obtain funding either for modular or integrated, somone will be the entrepreneur whom trains them.

What about the candidates whom cannot afford it - well many will work hard until they can - just as you are. That is not limiting you, however if you valued integrated over modular (which you do not) you would surely work harder for that extra funding to achieve that integrated training course.

That route is open to anyone irrespective of background, indeed many people who go integrated have worked to earn that money and are not of the background that you suggest.

Don't criticise capitalism if you are not top of the pile - aspire to be there instead and you won't envy someone whom took a different route from you. Just remember that socialism results in nepotism and stagnation.

SMOOTHFLIER

9th Feb 2006, 18:36

sent away the answers to the 8 questions yesterday. does any one know what the next stage is and have they done it yet?

Any body know what the financial deal is with this course??????
How is it sponsorship if you finance the course yourself with a bank loan?

Craggenmore

9th Feb 2006, 19:18

Oxford (Oxford Aviation Services Ltd) the trading company made £752k in 2003 and lost £10k in 2004. Don't forget that OAT spent a fortune in 2003/2004 on new FNPT's, a fleet of full system Elite training devices, have totally restructured and updated their interiors with LCD flat screens etc and refitted all Senecas with GPS and new leather seats!

I'll think you'll agree that this heavy expenditure is to blame for the loss. Its not something that they'll have to do again in the near future so expect profits to rise again especially as more and more of their training is completed in the States. In fact the only OAT flying done here in the UK is the final 20 hours of Seneca II.........

Re-Heat

9th Feb 2006, 19:39

They capitalise such equipment and depreciate over useful economic life. Such asset purchases do not have that impact - otherwise an airline would make a thumping loss upon asset acquisitions followed by massive profits from using such an asset.

On the point below, we can't see what they include within admin expenses, but that would appear to be the reason.

jb5000

9th Feb 2006, 19:44

Indeed that's what I was thinking.. yet their fixed asset cost remain similar year on year anyway.

Only 'admin expenses' seem to really kill the profits. Turnover is actually up.

97robem

11th Feb 2006, 12:20

Hi guys

I'm still waiting for a reply from the question phase. Anyone heard anything yet?

edymonster

11th Feb 2006, 22:11

nope aint heard anything yet. how long have you been waiting? has anyone heard from them yet?

Mugi

14th Feb 2006, 11:05

Ditto. Nothing heard from the question phase. It's over two weeks now but I would think that even a negative would warrant a response come the time. I'll sit tight.

As for the training fees - I'm 29 and am selling my house (for which I've worked hard for the past nine years) and financing the course from the proceeds. I'm not a rich kid and am having to make a massive sacrifice to go for it. However, the last nine years in an unsatisfying job has really led me to believe that I'm not really losing anything except the prospect of the next thirty years in drudgery :)

windsock9

14th Feb 2006, 11:23

Hi there , where can the application form be found for the city express sponsorship scheme? I have had a look on the connect website and Jerez homepage but cant seem to find it. I suppose it may have closed already but if someone could help me out i would be really chuffed. Thanks

Is the Britannia scheme still running? Or planning to reopen if already closed?

SMOOTHFLIER

14th Feb 2006, 16:26

yes the application date has passed.

edymonster

14th Feb 2006, 17:48

just got a reply after 2 and a half weeks. I have got to phase 3 and have to go to manchester next tueday 21st. Anyone else going?

howflytrg

15th Feb 2006, 05:54

Still waiting for a reply. Only applied on the deadline date and was given 24 hrs 'grace' to send in phase 2 answers. I applied last year and got through to phase 3, so if anyone wants to know what to expect from the day then i'm happy to share my experience of last May.

97robem

15th Feb 2006, 11:38

I'm still waiting for a response too. Looks like I haven't got to the next phase, quite dissapointed. Anyone else heard? what date did you send your completed application in? can you remember?

97robem

15th Feb 2006, 11:55

Also has anyone got a reply saying they havn't got through or does it simply mean that if you haven't received a email yet then you haven't got through>

howflytrg

15th Feb 2006, 12:02

Don't worry just yet 97. Same thing happened last year with people being called forward to the different phase 3 days. They may not have assigned a date for phase 3 to you yet?? The week is still young...... :ok:

Stumpyotoole

15th Feb 2006, 12:21

I wouldn't worry too much, spoke with FTE last week and they said that they would be inviting candidates forward for interviews throughout this week, so still 3 days to go. They will advise if you have been successful or not, so they won't let you sit there wondering.

97robem

15th Feb 2006, 13:21

Thank you for your advice guys its appreciated.
Have you guys (stumpyotoole and howflytrg ) heard that you have passed into stage three yet?

Stumpyotoole

15th Feb 2006, 13:49

No, not yet!! Still waiting... nail biting stuff all this.:ooh:

howflytrg

15th Feb 2006, 14:15

Still waiting.............what to do with myself in the meantine..........arr yes work!:eek:

howflytrg

15th Feb 2006, 18:41

Just recieved the e-mail and i'm on phase 3. I'm up for the selection on the 23rd. Yikes one week, time for some leave to be granted:eek:

SMOOTHFLIER

15th Feb 2006, 19:01

edymonster was the reply an email or phone call?

Did you get any more info on the course? need info on the finance and salary info.
cheers

Captain Melly

15th Feb 2006, 19:54

re citiexpress phase 3, going to sunny manchester on 23rd....any info re what you had to endure last year REALLY appreciated! :)

cheers!

CM

Dannyc

15th Feb 2006, 20:30

Hi guys,

Those of you that have received responses, what were the days of your sent e-mail questions?

Did you just receive them so late in the evening?!!

Cheers

97robem

16th Feb 2006, 08:53

Hi ,anyone heard anything today yet?

I'm still waiting and hoping but i have come to the conclusion that those people who have got through to phase three have, by now, already found out.

edymonster

16th Feb 2006, 09:25

The reply was by email and all it said was what the day involved and what to bring and where to go. It said nothing extra about the course. I recieved my email about 2 and a half weeks after I sent the phase 2 questions. Good luck to everyone and espcially people who are now on phase 3. Im starting to feel slighly nervous:uhoh:

edymonster

16th Feb 2006, 10:03

i forgot to ask is there a phase 4? or is his the last phase.

97robem

16th Feb 2006, 21:32

Anyone heard any more information today?

I think its a bit unfair not letting everyone know at the same time, I think the people who are through must have been informed by know , would just be nice if FTE would email the people who haven't got through just so their minds could be put at rest.

97robem

17th Feb 2006, 10:04

Hi guys, another post from me lol

I was just wondering, from those guys that have got through, what academic qualifications do you all have? Gcses , A levels or Degrees, could you give examples of grades and subjects etc, just so i can compare as to what those people have who have suceeded into phase 3.

Good luck to you all.

Eddie_Crane

18th Feb 2006, 00:37

Something terrible just happened to me.

After two weeks I found an email from BACitiExpress/FTE in my Junk Mail folder!!!
:eek: :{

I need say no more...

This is the final nightmare after 3 consecutive years of "bad luck" ...

KandiFloss

19th Feb 2006, 11:05

Hi all,

I've also got through to my BA CitiExpress 3rd stage...sounds like everyone who has applied for this scheme has!

I'm off to Manchester on 24th February 2006, anyone else going?

I'm having concerns about it though, as it seems ridiculous that we have to jump through so many hoops to get on their training scheme...cheeky or what?! :bored:

Mugi

19th Feb 2006, 11:22

Hoops you say?
The number of places they're offering will be far fewer than the number of people applying, as you know. I'm surprised they don't introduce more 'hoops' to weedle out those who lack the motivation.

This process is as nothing in comparison to some I have had in my non-aviation career. One company wanted me to write a complete marketing plan for one of their products even before seeing me for interview. Now that's cheeky!

Edit to say: congratulations on getting through to phase 3... where are my manners :)

howflytrg

19th Feb 2006, 16:15

Good luck Everyone! I believe they are only looking for 6 students by the end of this weeks selection.:bored: . Well thats the word in the Flyer mag anyway.

Stumpyotoole

20th Feb 2006, 11:37

Hey Pilotprincess,

Congratulations on getting through to phase 3!!:ok: See you in Manchester on Friday!:)

Dan

CaptH

20th Feb 2006, 14:33

Hi guys, i have got thru to the 3rd phase ....would really appreciate if anyone could tell me what they expect from us on this test day, what sort of questions to expect and also do they have the interview on the same day? im going for my phase 3 tomorow (21st feb) to manchester...anyone else with me?:ok:

CaptH

20th Feb 2006, 14:39

ohhh and also i forgot to mention i got an email thru from bacitiexpress...asking if i would be able to make a payment of almost £200 on the day of the Phase3 test as mentioned in their add...i didnt notice that bit in the add in flight international...did anyone else? It just seemed like they sent me that email as an afterthought.

Captain Melly

20th Feb 2006, 18:10

Hi All

Just wanted to say good luck to everyone going through to phase 3 this week!

CM

:8

Big Frank

21st Feb 2006, 10:13

Hi everyone,

Just found out that i'm through to stage 3 as well....seem to be a lot of us!!
Let me know if you're heading up for the same day!
Cheers,

Frank

danythau

21st Feb 2006, 12:58

I beleive there is approx 30 candidates for this week selections, and 6 only that will make it as partly sponsored ??? do we have official papers telling that BACX is offering employment after successful training? :hmm:
anyone plz shed some lights...thanx :)

Dannyc

21st Feb 2006, 14:13

Employment is not guaranteed.. it never is! :ooh:

Firstly successful completion of the flying course is required, and also recomendation from the training organisation. (For example, if a candidate has passed the course but had a bad reputation for attitude or aptitude throughout the course the airline will not consider him/her.)

It also very much depends on the operational requirements at the time, with smaller regional airlines the movement of pilots throughout the ranks is very big so there are high chances of employment. There may even be a sim check ride too between completing the course and begining the Type rating. If a 'good' candidate does not find a position immediately they will normally be placed in a holding pool and then employed when a position becomes vacant.

Hope this answers your question!!:ok:

I have a question perhaps someone can help me with?

After completion of the course ATPL (f) the JOC, MCC and upset training will be paid for by BA CONNECT, however can anyone confirm that the type rating, completed in Paris will be paid for in an agreement that the successful applicants will be bonded for 2 years will be required to pay back the type rating costing approximately £20k?

This then totals loan amounts of closer to £85k!! :mad: :yuk:

Dannyc

21st Feb 2006, 14:17

Cesco - Sorry to hear your bad luck. :{

Keep your head up and keep going! :)

Pilotprincess - you still going on Friday? :)

phips

22nd Feb 2006, 07:48

Good morning all,

Just a quick note, how easy was it to find Pioneer House?

Also were there any suprises??

Many thanks,

Phil

Captain Melly

22nd Feb 2006, 08:42

Hi Phil

Seems pretty straightforward to get to Pioneer House. Best way seems to be by train to East Didsbury station, from there it's about a 5 min walk. If driving, through Didsbury village, past petrol station on left, past large white pub on right, right into Towers Business Park, follow small road to T junction, right, immediately left, Pioneer House is then on the right. Let me know if u want the directions mailed to you.

Hope this helps!

Good luck with the assessment!! :)

Cheers

CM

97robem

23rd Feb 2006, 11:10

Hi guys

I have been selected for the BACX scheme and should be going to the interview tomorrow, however i was only told yesterday that i had been selected so it is very short notice, how many guys are at each selection day? Any help would be very much received.

thanks guys.

Eddie_Crane

23rd Feb 2006, 12:48

Cesco - Sorry to hear your bad luck. :{

Tell me about it!!! :{ :{ :{

Keep your head up and keep going! :)

Goes without saying! ;)
Good luck to all of you soon-to-be BACX "cadets".:ok:
C

SMOOTHFLIER

24th Feb 2006, 13:15

got a reply today didnt get through to stage 2. not too worried though because im applying with ctc. didnt spend too much time on the questions i think thats why i havent been invited to the next stage.

UlsterPPL

24th Feb 2006, 13:38

Hi SmoothFlier,
Do they also sending out e-mail to unsuccessful candidates as well?
I replied with answers for the questions asked and received no word from them since. I am 33 and CTC scheme is out of my reach unfortunately. :*

SMOOTHFLIER

24th Feb 2006, 17:49

hey mate yeah it was by email.

UlsterPPL

24th Feb 2006, 22:10

I didn't get through either. :{ Thanks for your reply, SmoothFlier.

EGCC4284

25th Feb 2006, 10:32

I went modular route and it has cost me about £35,000 in total. Just because you get involved with an airline does not mean you will get a job with them at the end of it especially if you paying for all the training in advance.

All the Aer Lingus cadets from 2001 have a story to tell and if any of them are reading this, may be they would like to tell these so called BA Connect cadets??? what happened to them in 2001.

My advice is go modular and save your self a load of cash. The market is picking up.

Good luck to all which ever way you go.

UlsterPPL

25th Feb 2006, 10:56

Hi EGCC4284,

I agree of what you said as well. My target airline to work for is FlyBE as they have base in Belfast. Quite a few flying instructors of our local flying club are working for them. I have get use to living in Belfast and short haul suits me OK and it is closer to home. As far as I know, FlyBE is still taking on modular trained pilots as long as they were trained in a tight schedule without many breaks in between. In my situation at 33 years old, it is good to earn while learn. It is always a different situation for different people and every individual will have to make their own careful decision. Let's hope all together, the airline industry is going to do better in the coming years and all the hard working guys and gals from integrated or modular are going to get their high flying job. :ok: