Foreigners...

[Malagant]

It was mentioned in the precision debate about the foreigners etc, it seems that SA is a place to run to if U cannot get work else where, in a few of the local companies, there are Namibians, Aussies, etc that work on contract, now I cannot get a job in Namibia if it wasn`t advertised and U eventually get a work visa, let alone in the USA or Aus or Europe, so why do these guys get work here and there are SA crew sitting at home that cannot get jobs with these companys`s, the CAA should start looking at giving validations, if the person is in SA and just wants to pole around on holiday, yes fine, but if he wants a job he must arrive with the advertisement that was placed in the local paper and a letter from the company that states that no local was available or qualified for the position advertised..otherwise no validation... the SA contractpilots should start standing together and protect our industry and jobs...:sad:

[putt for dough]

Malagant..I fully agree with you on this!I have posted a few arguments before on this topic.My argument is, if we need to get full a licence in the US or the EU why should these guys be able to write only a law exam and do a flight test then get a RSA validation?Fair enough if they do all the exams and flight tests that are required of us saffers and pass and get their licence, and are lucky enough to get a job ,then well done to the guys and gals.But the real issue here with me is that there are too many validated pilots on our SA register and their validations are renewed year after year! I say to hell with that and just as we wanna work in the EU, we gotta do full licence requirements ie: all exams and flight tests.So why should they have it easy on our shores?Whats fair is fair.

Other then that SA need Donald back in their team to take on those Ozzies :ok:

Schweet........

[Spetsnaz]

It's not just Europe. Just try getting a job in Nigeria, Ghana or elsewhere and see the reception you get! Even the UAE I believe has a policy in place to take mostly pilots from within their 'common market'. Yet, ironically, we get them coming here to train!

[B Sousa]

Malignant
Good Idea, lets first start by sending home all those South African Pilots who are working outside the country...........
You think South Africa is a big draw for Pilots?? Get real, in this world, Pilots who want to remain in the industry go all over the world to get jobs.
I think your just going to have to upgrade your skills and resume to make yourself more competitive.

[SIC]

There was a halfhearted attempt recently by the CAA to stop people from getting validations renewed again and again. And guess who got the short end of the stick? Two south african guys working for a local South African airline who both happen to not have SA ATP ( only Comm ) but are using validations of their FAA ATP in order to be in the left seat. They were both told that their validations will not be renewed again and they now have to get SA ATP.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Not many foreigners flying inside SA with validations. By the same token you should have no problem flying N registered aircraft outside the US on a FAA validation. There are Saffers flying for Ryanair and a couple of other airlines in the EU on validations. They have a year to get JAR qualified.

If the entire industry felt the same way you do, you would still not get work as the SA expats currently working overseas will flood the market back home. It's a hard path but we all have to start somewhere. Good luck and hope it works out well for you...:ok:

[Gunship]

Good luck malagant - I really "feel" for you on this issue !

On a lighter note :E

A Zimbabwean arrives in Jo'burg as a new immigrant in South Africa

He stops the first person he sees walking down the street and says,
"Thank you Mr. South African for letting me in this country, and giving me free housing, food, free medical care, affirmative action job and free education!" But the passer-by says, "You are mistaken, I am a Nigerian."

The man goes on and encounters another passer-by. "Thank you for having such a beautiful country here in South Africa!" The person says, "I'm not South African, I'm from Mozambique."

The new arrival walks further and the next person he sees he stops, shakes hands and says, "Thank you for the wonderful South Africa!" That person puts up his hand and says, "I am from Transkei, I am not a South African ..."

He finally sees a lady and asks suspiciously, "Are you a South African?
She says, "No, I am from Ghana!" So he is puzzled and asks her, "Where are all the south Africans?"



The Ghana lady looks at her watch, shrugs, and says.......

"Probably at work!"
:hmm:

[Airforce1]

Look there are alot of contracts flown outside of SA flown by SA operators, but all the planes are SA registered so you can not say there are lots of South Africans working in foreign countrys stealing their jobs. As for the guys in Europe they have 1 year validation...finished, no renewals. SA CAA tends to renew the foreign validations year after year after year, provided the pilot works outside SA borders. This does not hide the fact that aspiring new South African pilots are deprived of contract work due to these foreigners.

A further concern is how in some SA contract company's South African pilots are put second in command to the foreigners with (for example) FAA ATP's. The foreigners attain it in a week when they reach their hour requirement, while JOE SOAP from Kakamas graph's away for a year to get his SA ATP and then has to wait in the company for a few months for a command position which is not available as all the foreigners are holding all positions and aint leaving.
I have many foreigner friends and feel their plight of not having work in their country, but still have to hold a softer spot for all fellow "pale male" Saffirs who are the most discriminated job seekers on this planet! No work at home , and none abroad.......am off to open a "Fish & Chip" shop in Plett in case I lose my present job or medical...:hmm:

[foreigner]

Malagant,

Cry me a river..
Let me enlighten you on a couple of things.

1. It is not the responsibility of the CAA to determine policy on the job market in SA, it is the governments.
2. South Africa happens to be one of the hardest places to immigrate to, so only the most dedicated foreigners actually bother to go through the process.
3. In order to work in SA you must have, among many other things, a "letter from the company that states that no local was available or qualified for the position advertised".
4. The company must also have proof that the job was advertised to locals, and interviews were taken.
5. There are more South Africans flying here on validations than there are foreigners flying on validations.
6. There are more South Africans working abroad than there are foreigners working here - its called the "brain drain", something South Africa is suffering from at the moment.
7. South African companies are very hesitant about hiring foreigners because of the goverments policy on immigration.
8. Many aviation related jobs are not available to non South Africans, look at the police force pilots as an example.

I suggest you find out the facts before you post something so dumb. The "foreigner" that took your job would have got the job through his merits, nothing else.
The world isn't called the "global village" for nothing, pilots especially tend to find work all over the world, it is the nature of this day and age. The fact that you may have to write a few more exams if you want to work somewhere else is besides the point. Stop moaning and write them, you may learn something more about the industry you want to be part of by doing that. Studying is an integral part of this industry, just because you got a CPL doesn't mean you are entitled to sit on your ass for the rest of your life. You will be studying something new all the time if you want to progress. Its called education.

[LittleMo]

foreigner,

What you say is flawed. Let us not forget the police pilot, Mary was her name, who landed the job flying the PC6. She was hired because 'she was the right demographic' and her getting the position 'was a step forward in making the SAPS Airwing truley representative'. She was also a Botswanan national. She was selected over and above more qualified, South African applicants.


Proudly South African

[Atlanta-Driver]

Pipe down gents. I havel ost count how many RSA citizens we have flying for us,most on validations, but the number is about 30+. Quite sure these guys would not like your ideas if they where in the receiving end of the stick.
So before you start to spread the bull, would be wise to smell what you are showeling.

[B200Drvr]

Airforce 1, You seem to think the FAA ATP is a piece of cake, I have news for you, the oral and flight check are way harder than any SACAA check ride, the FAA system concentrates on the Physical more than theoretical, they are just different.
As for them sitting P1 when our ATPL pilots are riding P2, How do you think he feels when a SA ATPL pitches up with a P1 rating and 2 hours on type. At least the FAA guys do proper type ratings on larger machines with 5 day groundschools and 20-30 hrs sim time.
Malagant
One of the biggest problems in SA is there just is not enough ATP rated pilots to fill all of the contract positions. You go to any contract company in South Africa with an ATPL and some turbine time and I bet you they will give you a job!!!!!!!
Nobody is taking your jobs away, but you cant give a 200 hr pilot a job because he is South African, Most contracts require a starter to have 1000hrs, companies are just doing whats best to make money, at the end of the day, that is what business is all about.

[foreigner]

Littlemo

I didn't realise that about the SAPS, and for that I apologise.
I also agree with all that you have said,(before you edited it out) I believe that a South African should have first dibs on any job, indeed he does, as it is the policy of the South African Administration.
My argument was with Malagants post where he presumed that foreigners can just swan in and take jobs from locals as they please, and that "SA is a place to run if you can't get a work elsewhere". His entire post is factually wrong and I felt obliged to correct him.

[putt for dough]

Airforce 1... Good on ya!!! :ok: :ok:

Schweet....

[RICCARDOVOLANTE]

'I just apply at E.T. and and I received the answer from them.They hire only South African pilot.No other nationalty pilot .
Riccardo Volante"

Malagant,
apply to Excutive Turbine ,they only hire S.A, citizen.
Riccardo Volante

[Captain Pheremone]

My views

Being a RSA Citizen I have flown for many years in foreign countries. They have nearly always welcomed me in (depends whose side you were on) and if you think I am giving away my hard earned $$$$$$$.....!!!!!!

Hehehehehehehe.....come and try.:}

In an abstract way, me working off shore opens a gap for someone at home. Good luck to him.

[MungoP]

This old debate has risen yet again... yaaaawn:hmm:
Those who get a ZS validation and are not SA citizens very rarely end up working in SA....they fly contract work ..mostly in difficult areas that require a reasonable level of experience....just being from SA and holding a CPL just won't work flying in and out of Kabul in the winter....or Goma in an unpressurised a/c in the rainy season...
Where are all the experienced SA pilots ?....try asking Cathay....Singapore airlines...Dragon Air..Emirates... Qatar...et al.... what would all the wannabees do if they were forced to come home ?

[I.R.PIRATE]

I wouldnt say they are all gone, some of them are just pigmentally challenged....

[Airforce1]

B200 Drvr,
I hear you, but I was not saying the FAA is a piece of cake-was trying to drive home the point that the FAA ATP is attainable is a MUCH shorter time span due to the written exams. As for low time P1's put with experienced P2-thats ridiculous. PIC requirements obviously remain!,
I was just painting the unfortuenate sequence of events in my previous post.:suspect:

[B200Drvr]

"As for low time P1's put with experienced P2-thats ridiculous. PIC requirements obviously remain!,"
Unfortunatly not true, I have first hand experience. Where the contract has no specific requirements, you would be amazed at what happens.

[Malagant]

Foreigner, what I said is that, company`s are getting foreigners to fly ZS acft on contracts abroad... so CAA can help in preventing this by asking for the add and the company letter that states that the post was advertised, the goverment can do nothing if the foreigner is flying out of the country! :{ What U said in point 3 & 4 I had already said, your point 5 states that there are more SA pilots flying there on validations, where is that place U referring to? U state that company`s are not hiring foreigners because of the immigration laws etc, they do hire, because they not flying in SA.. U don`t c any of those pilots working on charter, the company`s know exactly what they can and can`t do...

Riccardo, sorry mate have to disagree with U there, ET have foreigners in the 1900 and twin otter pool, a guy from Papa New Guinea etc..

[foreigner]

A South African company flying ZS registered aircraft abroad must comply with SA goverment legislation. The reason they hired foreigners will be because they were more qualified for the job. A South African company rightly should want to hire locals, but if no local is suitably qualified for the position they have every right to hire a non-local.
As for the validations, many South Africans go to the States, for example, to get the (in their mind) "easier" FAA licence and then validate. The reason for this is to avoid taking the exams in SA.

[Hogg]

:) "Whaat ist uure miiisionn" :)

Oooooo

[Gunship]

:) "Whaat ist uure miiisionn" :)
Oooooo

:p:p:p Lo mate ! Will phone you tomorrow evening ... a few miles from you.

Sorry back to reality. Been following this thread for a bit and it is a 50-50 "problem" everywhere.

We where (eventually) kicked out / pushed / contract stopped .. in a foreign country once the locals said THEY had enough and they want to fly. Ok this is an African scenario I know but maybe it will make sense ( i had a few wines as well 4HP) :E

Now they took over and where I parked the machines 18 months they are still there. Ok so in some areas foreigners are sort of aid workers... ok this is not what I wanted to say because maybe a Saffer can not fly better than an American in his own country hey ?

Sorry I forgot about it .. ok sorry forget what I say .

Anyway nice to chat to you HOGG ... if you are nice boy I will bring biltong :E

[SIC]

Captain Pheremone you said it right - if it wasn't for the fact that literally hundreds of very experienced SA pilots leave to Emirates,Cathay, Air MAuritius, Air Atlanta, Singapore etc. mostly everybody moaning here wouldnt even have the B200 job they have right now.And the good news is that the middle East, India,China etc is fast running out of pilot stock - so once y'all got a bit of jet time and get over your fear of foreign workers you might become one yourself. Thats if you can manage without the biltong and the boerie and the rugby and the sunshine and the Sandton bitches.

[Gooneybird]

I take the point about validations, and something should be done about that.

If a foreign pilot, who has an SA CPL/ATPL wants to fly a ZS aircraft outside of the RSA, I just don't see the problem.

Rossair Europe and Zimex, when they were around, all had non-European crews with JAR licences working for them. Plenty of N registrations with non-American crews etc..

Once that aircraft and crew are outside of RSA, it's no longer a domestic issue ie. every pilot for themselves.

Oh yes, and it really is alot easier for a South African to move to another country than for foreigners to move here. As yet this countries immigration process and requirements are far from transparent. Beautiful country though.

[RICCARDOVOLANTE]

"Riccardo, sorry mate have to disagree with U there, ET have foreigners in the 1900 and twin otter pool, a guy from Papa New Guinea etc.."

Malagant,
here is not a problem that you agree or not , the fact is that Executive Turbine sent me an e mail saying that "we do not hire foreigners"and that is all.
Now that they hire foreigners,like you say, make me think that it is not serious from them acting in that way even because I spent 3 weeks in several faxes at several people in E.T.and several phone calls to many others people at E.T.to get a no sense answer that they could give to me before. The reason that was not sense answer from E.T.is coming straight from you Malagant ,from your recent post.
So I do not know why they have been acting in this way ,but I know that is not correct no matter what nationality , citizenship ,religion,race and so foward to act with no respect towards people that want to look for a job seriousily.
Sincerely
Riccardo Volante

[south coast]

easy, they are an sa contract operator, did nt you know that gave them licence to treat you like sh*t!

they always have and always will...that you can be sure of, oh and them eventually loosing their contracts because they are short sighted and greedy.

[maxrated]

Riccardo,
When you communicate with ET make sure you are talking to the correct department, that´s contracts not charter, it is the charter section that does not employ foreigners, contracts should be no problem, ask to speak to Lou or Brian, last I heard was that they were desperate for contract captains to work in Sudan, if that interests you.
:)

[RICCARDOVOLANTE]

Maxrated ,
I will not argue on that .I will give a call next week and I will see what is going to happen.
Sincerely
Riccardo Volante

[vaninnam]

regarding namibians as foreigners.They usually have south african citizenship.Can you imagine if saffers from all over the world return with thousands of boeing and airbus hours.
approx 50% of air namibia pilots have access to SA passport
approx 50% of charter pilots are saffers.
saffers are welcome as all namibian pilots are already employed
greetings
sitting in FRA missing home

[nutcracker43]

Good to see that xenophobia, usually the refuge of the unqualified and insecure, is alive and well...

NC43

[Speevy]

One of my best mates is a B767 captain for Alitalia, guess what he told me:
3 captains from the old generation (when we still had the 747) were South Africans (he thinks they are flying for Cathay now..).
Now I think this is normal because like somebody said we are part of the Global village, but remember it works in both directions...
Good luck Good Flying
Speevy.

[south coast]

speevy...you filthy greasy iti....faf an goola!

[SAT_BOSS]

Guys,

I would say ALL our foreign pilots that fly ZS rented aircraft have a validation only. In the same token we employ a person NOT BECASUE of his citizen ship but skills; If he meets hours; have a good record; well he will have a job. I have flown in the US / Africa & "down under" I was NEVER asked for my Nationality as a qualifying factor, the license yes.

[RICCARDOVOLANTE]

SAT_BOSS you are lucky .
I know personally all the wrong company because they ask me for everythink.
Religion
Status
Citizen
Age
Weight
Race
Gender
and the lates from an Angecy recruitment they asked me to fill up an application where they ask also for the "Sexuality"(atcherley aviation from UK).
Now would be please so kind to tell me were an Italian guy with an FAA ATP type on be 200 ,be1900, and so o n can get a job?without those above stupid questions?
Thank you
Sincerely
Riccardo Volante

[birdlady]

Glad to see xenophobia is still alive and well :rolleyes: :yuk: :yuk:

[nutcracker43]

Birdlady, you left out: 'usually the refuge of the unqualified and insecure'. Attention to detail please! Does any of this apply to you?

NC43