Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued

[Warlock2000]

WHERE ARE THE JOURNO'S NOW?

A number of EK pilots are currently on "extra days off" because they have exceeded the max flying hours allowed in a calendar year.

It is no secret that Emirates has been running the pilot poole on the very lean side for quite some time and that crew scheduling are forced to regularly call pilots on off days to fly planes that would otherwise be parked. The airline has relied, no, expected "good will" from the pilots to work on their off days and yet offer no good will in return. Rosters are a shambles and EVERY PILOT is planned to work beyond the standard productive level into overtime EVERY MONTH.

The result is a bunch of fatigued pilots flying heavy equipment on 14h40min ultra long haul routes to places like New York, spending 24 hours on the ground, then compounding their fatigue by operating the ultra long haul return flight to Dubai.....
Or, pilots operating the likes of 11 hour flights from Seoul to Dubai - 2 crew in the middle of the night.

Concerns have been raised at various levels that we ARE heading for a disaster, but arrogance and greed turn a blind eye.

[Shake]

Not just NY and Seoul,

back to back flights throughout the night, followed by SIN-MEL, SIN-BNE AKL, back to London a few days later... 80-90 hr block months...delays, extended duty times, no leave available. The problem is affecting all fleets, Bs & As.

Some go sick, others mask the true extent of the problem by working on their days off.

EK is in crisis and all you can hear is silence.

[Zomp]

10 days of leave in one month and still 77 hours blocktime, of course no overtime thanks to TCAS

[SecurID]

EK is in crisis and all you can hear is silence

That is the most accurate statement of fact regarding Flight Operations that I have ever read on this site. Management, wake up!

[Check 'Six']

"Tick Tock" Only a matter of time until something gives!!

It's not to say that we did not raise these problems with management before! They somehow seem to think that it will just get better if we ignore them long enough, they might disappear!!

Well gents, let us all take care out there! And bottom line is, if you are not up to it? Dont do it! Because no one will come to your rescue if it all turns ugly!!

As always,

Check your Six.:eek:

[411A]

Oh my gosh!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
All these 'fatigued' pilots after 11 hour flights.
Maybe we should take up a collection here for a paper bag full of donuts for all these guys, so the can keep their sugar level up, and not fall asleep....:p

PS:
If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

[max AB]

I am afraid 411A keeps posting because he loves to get kneejerk responses. In life he could likely be a reasonable bloke, just here he is something else. So skip his post and move on. Time for a nap....

[shaggin yoke]

So let me get this right, The salary is so far below market rate it is shameful, contracts are being abused, Safety is compromised through high fatigue levels and under staffed/funded training dept. First Officer's carreers stagnated through insensitive policy making and DEC's. Line pilots reaching max Flight Duty time and earning less than the coveted DEC's.

Response from pilot workforce.

Idiots still agree to take up and continu in training positions. My God guys! Trainers are the guardians of safety in an airline have the professionalism to resign until this bun fight is sorted out. You owe it to your line collegues. Without you the company are forced to negotiate.

Line Captains flying on days off. Those that do are weak moneygrabbing lillylivers who do not deserve the rank of Captain. Have the cajonas that you rank represents and learn to piss in the long grass like the big dogs. Only then will things improve.

FO's your @bond@ cannot be enforced since the very spirit of your contract with EK has been compromised by frequent adjustments to COS. Do yourself a favour and resign. There are loads of jobs out there you dont have to take this crap. You are professionals show some self respect and vote. Only then will things change.

As long as flights are crewed you are justifying managements cost cutting policies and inviting even less respect.

Working on days off under these circumstances is indefensible those that do are contemptable and should be treated as such.

[waldorfin]

SY your vitriol is misplaced squire. If things were so bad then all that you have mentioned would have materialised. But it hasn’t has it. I wonder why? Perhaps when all the hot air has been expressed and lucidity returns then reality dawns together with the realisation that this aint so bad after all. No, not the best but certainly not the worst job.
GAL

[Shake]

Waldo aka various:

Back in the office after an extended Xmas break, what would you know about fatigue?

[Cyberbird]

Waldorfin might have missed it - whilst being on leave between the years, whlist we've been working our A**es off ...
as he WRONGLY states:

"If things were so bad then all that you have mentioned would have materialised. But it hasn’t has it. I wonder why?"

.... so, what about the numerous cancelled EK-Flights over X-mas, due to massive shortness of Crews then? Well, that REALLY costs EK money to extremly poor managements decisions i guess :*

[shaggin yoke]

Waldo,

EK crews are amoungst the best that I have worked with Squire. Emirates has managed, in the past, to attract pilots of a very high calibre. It goes against the grain of any professional to not set the very highest of standards. That is why the aforementioned action has not yet materialised.

Your sychophantic management, like you, will rest on there laurals until the critical point is exceeded and the whole thing falls apart, only then will something be done. Your acceptance of mediocraty is endemic in management. This may not be the best but it certainly is not the worst you say. There was a time when I was proud to be part of a company that pronounced "we are and will continue to be, The Best"

No EK is not yet the worst but it is very close to the bottom. Your COS will continue to errode until you finally do hit the bottom. Management were once proactive in growing the business have been replaced by the cost cutters and arse coverers. What was once a culture of inovation is now a culture of paranoia. Waldo, if you ARE in management or training the I urge you to re read your words and think about your suitability for your job. Then resign!!!! Your cynical acceptance of mediocraty is sickening.

[Streamline]

Contact Capt KIM MILLER FAA AFS 50 Whashington

[hans_airbus]

If Ek Is Really So Bad Than Pls Do All Of Us A Favour And Go. Go To Ry@n, E@sy Where Live Is So Easy And Perfect.

I Have Heard That Ry@n And E@sy Pilots Are Wrking On A 20 Days Off And 10 Days On Roster. Good Money. Sick Leave Allowed Up To 100 Days A Year.

But Go And Stop Whining.

You Cant Destroy Emirates Good Reputation. It Is Still One Of The Best Companies To Work For.

[EGGW]

Keep taking the drugs Hans, you a laugh a minute mate. One of the best companies to work for. Thats the funniest thing written here in a long time. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/lachen/laughing-smiley-014.gif

EGGW

[FLEXJET]

http://www.chinaworker.org/cgi-bin/index.cgi?action=viewnews&id=131

Some ideas that may help you.
Think about the thousands of children used as Jockeys, think about working conditions in the construction business, confiscated passports, suicides and so on...

What a terrible place...

[hans_airbus]

Why did u wimps left your perfect previous airline to come to EK. Why?

And still its in your hand you can go. WE dont need crybabies like you here in EK. complaining complaining complaining

It makes me sick.

[fatbus]

why did we put a 3rd pilot on MNL and not ICN

[Shake]

Hans: Don't look then you won't upset yourself.

Flex: Fatigue is a major issue. It directly relates to safety. Yes there are others who have it much much worse but this is a jet-jockey issue not a camel-jockey issue, for the latter go to JRuNe for more info.

The most complicated piece of equipment Waldo and his mates operate is a pen. 400+ pax with a crew falling asleep in the front is one of the major issues at EK.

[waldorfin]

I’m afraid to say that just like the most of us I worked right through the festive period. The thing is I thought I had taken care of the ones insisting to spread negativity and a one sided view. Seems they are suckers for punishment and so I shall oblige and go round two.
Seconds out
DING
Here’s the “other side”. Ask yourselves the question why people like Shake, SY, etc get so vociferous when another point of view is aired. The answer is that they are insecure in their own beliefs. This translates to why they would continually slag EK and indeed Dubai off and then opt to stay, qualifying it by saying that they cant just up and move. Nonsense chaps, nobody believes that. Allegedly there are droves of people leaving. Join the queue.
When they get met with arguments of substance they get frustrated and then opt to attacking the author. Accusations of management, training, bla bla yawn yawn. No, I’m not either just a fellow line dude who has a differing point of view. Inconceivable to some, the truth none the less.
And then when reason has really gone out the window we get the insults. Take a look at EGGW’s response to HA. Would you honestly take what EGGW has to write to hold any substance? I think not.

What is happening to these poor souls is very powerful indeed. It happened to the dot com crash. The culprit- Self fulfilling prophesies.

[Shake]

Walddy,
Your arguments passed through you and your other IDs do not have any substance. You have been shown to be a fraud on many occassions.
No one objects to another point of view except when it is given by such objectional personas as yours.
Give us the arguments then, the ones with substance. Hang around long enough in one form to substantiate and debate them. Refrain from the insults you accuse others of using...
But history shows that you are incapable of such a debate and to ignore history condemns us to make the same mistake and you are simply not worth it.

[LHR Rain]

Hans you are aware of EK and its operating practices aren't you? What good reputation could you possibly be talking about? Lastly, you are aware as I'm sure you are because you are a mangement puke that EK is now drug testing? As a suggestion you might want to get off the contraband before they nail you unless EK does not test office boys.
I think a better topic of the poll should have been is anyone happy at EK? Sure alot of pilots tolerarate EK because they have nowhere else to go but does anyone really enjoy EK? Especially with the way things have been going the last year.

[hans_airbus]

Do You Really Think That All The Other Companies Are Much Nicer To Their Employees. Do You?

Go To Europe And See All The ****ty Airlines.

Desicions Are Based On Company Benefits Not Yours.

Its All About Money.

And I Am Quite Happy To Have A Secure Job With An International Airline.

We Have Nice New Well Maintained A/c, Good Route Structure And Dubai Is Nice To Live( Except The Traffic)

I Was Flying Charter Before, 100 Hours A Month, 3-5 Sectors A Day.

You Are Complaining When You Are Rostered For A Dxb-mct-dxb-doh-dxb Flight. This Is An Easy Flight.

So Tell Me What Is Bad In Ek.

[waldorfin]

You see Hans these people cannot stand the fact that people like you and I have a life. They sit around in huddled groups and convince one another that things are SOOOOO bad, however as you stated they don’t leave. We point that out to them and they answer some other nonsense. Nowhere to go…… rubbish. Take a look at the latest flight. Plenty jobs there. Deep down they enjoy it here but this is their perverse way of trying to get management to believe we are going to have a max exodus of drivers and so have to pay us more. Great tactic, if it worked. Truth is it doesn’t. Anyone with slightly more than a high school diploma and pilots license would realise this. What it does is convince other worthy people out there that EK is not an alternative and therefore some good blokes are missing out. A very selfish attitude. Yes we should get paid more, yes we should perhaps fly less, yes I’m happy in my job and enjoy where I live.
Bite me.
GAL

[6853]

Howzit Hans?
Yeh, life is terrible here. Had to sit on the beach in Mauritius the other day with my FO and got horribly sunburnt - you dont perhaps know anything about it? By the way, is it packs on or off this week?
Cheers

[miss petal]

WAL...
Some people they have a life.. outside Dubai.
How can you call yourself to have a life while you couldn't even escaped from this place every now and then ( minimum days off a month!! ) Please don't tell me you have a life between scarlett and spinneys???

Everyone were happy at the old days... and yet Company didn't loose any money!!
Wal.. I'm personally don't like the excessive whinning and complaints. But funny enough I think your post make me lil bit sick in the tummy. Laughable

I flew with a captain the other day, he's one of the person who try so hard not to complain and do the job and try to enjoy. BUT STILL ... he thought this airline is an absolute circus!!! Come on..WAL, stop joking. you make us laugh here!

[bluewater]

To quote Mr Waldorfin:
Anyone with slightly more than a high school diploma and pilots license would realise this.

So that would be most in EK management then, right!
Sorry, couldn't let that one pass...:)

[hans_airbus]

I enjoy my live in Dubai and I enjoy my life with EK. I agree that the money isnt the best but who pays more, the big picture here in dubai is good.

If it is really so bad here why you dont leave than. And pls stop telling untrue stories about EK.

Of course you can always find minor things to improve but which airline is perfect.

And in my opinion EK is still a very good company to work for.

Emirates should start recruiting motivated and professional pilots with 2000 hours and you will see how many pilots they will get.

And it doesnt matter if they are white or black, asian or european, british or malaysian

[Shake]

Hans:
100 a month 3-5 sectors a day then indeed EK may seem a great deal better. The fact that you were abused at your last airline however does not excuse the fact that you can be treated the way EK treats its pilots, it is simply not an argument for the way things have deteriorated here. Using the same logic you will one day leave EK to your next job when things are bad enough until that too deteriorates to the same level.
Not not all airlines were and are like the ones you experinced but perhaps this is as good as it can get for you. However if the trend continues EK will work you 900+ hrs/year, rosters will make home life impossible and fatigue will become a flight safety/health issue. How will the job be then?
I doubt you have worked in Europe. The airlines in there pay very well and adhere to JAR rules and regulations & you invariably have a union to protect you from arbitary changes to Ts & Cs.
I am happy that you are feeling secure with your International Airline. I just don't think it is a secure as you.

[hans_airbus]

Shake,

I was with an european charter company. ITS NOT TRUE THAT EUROPE PAYS MORE AND GIVES YOU A DECENT LIFE.

For an example Niki pays you only 800 Euros for an FO. If you are sick for more than 1 week they call you for tea and biscuit.

Volare lots of long flights and sectors.

LTU big pay cut, unsecure job, long flights.

Ryan 5 days on 3 days off, 4 sectors every day, In winter 4 times deicing and CAT III. A few of my friends resigned, tooooooo tired after 4 years.

Air berlin, 90 hours every month, no union, lots of sectors

So where is the perfect company.

Guys EK is still good, stop complaining and enjoy ur life.

[hans_airbus]

I know volare went bancrupt. It was just an example

[FlyingCroc]

The conditions in Europe are not good, all that Hans mentioned is true and compared to these terrible work conditions life at EK is still good. However let's not compare EK to those charter and low-cost operators like Ryan, LTU, Volare, Air Berlin etc... EK is supposed to be a major airline, a flag carrier. It cannot not be that it drifts down to a level of a cheap charter or low cost carrierer in terms of flight duty, hours, safety etc. 90-100 hrs is too much, everyone working as a pilot knows that, SAFETY WILL BE COMPROMISED BY FATIGUE!:confused:

[Shake]

Hans:

Points taken but compare like with like. Do you really compare EK with Volare, Lauda & LTU? Air Berlin please, if that is what EK has to compare itself with to look good then the point is already made. EK want you to believe we compare with BA, KLM, Air France et al but it doesn't, it just doesn't.

[wallflower]

You are right Flying Croc,I mean you only have to look at Etihad to see what the cheap charter airline management has done for them.Itcertainly would be a shame if EK went the same way.If any of you guys are serious about leaving.....dont even consider Etihad.The conditions there are a million times worse.......management by fear(or should i say monkeys!)terrible pay.A lot of guys are hanging on because they think that things are so bad that they can only get better.Who knows perhaps they will?I think things at EK will have to sink a lot further down in the quality and SAFETY standards before they reach the ETIHAD level.Good luck anyway

[bushbolox]

Just as an exercise, where exactly would the unhappy people like to go to. Who still has an old style roster with alll the lifestyle perks from the past.I'm sure that the reality in alot of companies in terms of work load isnt much different.The odd , and very sort after ,dinosaur airline job not withstanding.

Badly rostered longhaul, badly rostered lowcost, badly rostered charter , its all the same result, knackered, zombie, operating in a stae of fatigue worse than any drink/fly limit.. I get the impression that Ek has worn out the honeymoon period and the guys there are now suffering the same levels of fatigue and lifestyle that a summer charter operator suffers, relatively speaking...number of sectors etc. Ba newhires on 5 or 6 east coast bullets ( 4 of them weekends) a month is pretty hard going as well.Charter drivers on a mix of longhaul bullets and short mediium haul , day after day. Sharm there and back 12 hrs not level 2 means you can be back in the saddle in 12 hrs for another or straight onto a night group. Its all the same ****. I think it just seems worse at ek because of the past high standard of living and lifestyle.

I think its a bad case of grass is greener , with a few exceptions where you cant get in anyway.

Not looking for a row just curious where they would go with a dubai rating without reverting back to the sort of enviroment they were probably hoping to leave behind,but has now caught up with them. All enviroments change, but none more obvious than the change in expat life in general and the airline business in general.

So where is the nirvanna these days.

[Shake]

BB

Perhaps that's the point. EK is as green as the others; not what it was and not what it professes to be...nirvanna it is not.

[SecurID]

So before you think everything is marvellous think for one or two moments about those guys who used to have it better and now have it worse

Oi'll be tipping a jar to that! :ok:

[4legsaday]

I guess after a couple of years in one company a lot of collegues become blind for reality.

After the experience of flying for different airlines in Europe I am looking for an stable base in our generally downgoeing business. Europe is far away from beeing regulated, thus for all member countries. The MEL is the book I read the most and you have to face a sluggish maintenance, because lowcost IS and MEANS lowcost.
You will be reported to the DO if you do entries in the Technical Logbook and so on...so I can easily understand Hans and divide his point of view.

Yes a lot of our collegues get in JAR command early, but if you fly Easy, Ryan, Air Berlin etc. you think you become Captain with 24 years because of your qualities?? Come on, is this a joke or is this the JAR quality ??
The Lowcost Airlines are timebombs in point of view.

You get rich in Europe?? Ask what a Captain in e.g. TUI Belgium is earning for a month...Do you know that there is a VAT of 20% in most of the countries and you have to pay up to 55% tax on your salary...after all you work 5 Days/4 Legs for nuts, because at the end no one will pay you the pension.

But this is not the point, if you feel so uncomfortable and you can not change the company conditions, try your luck and go to a better one.
Remember as professionals we are getting paid for our work, but if you can get a better contract, then why don´t you go??

But please, please, please STOP whining please, (because I do not have compassion for you) or go whereever you think it´s better.

[Ahad Adump]

Our point exactly, Hans, 4legs.

Most of the more senior guys in EK were your A-class candidate. With backgrounds from national carriers and/or military trained and/or reputable international carriers.

Now that they are scraping the bottom of the barrel, with the likes of you.......well you must think this is Heaven.

When we joined EK, it offered better conditions to what we had.

Now that they cater for your average C-class candidate, well EK just doesn't cut the mustard...........we will bitch and moan and unless things improve soon......... we will leave.

You and your bottom-of-the-barrel mates must stay, where else can the likes of you fly a wide body???
You will be managed by Waldo the "management puke" as described by Rainman.

[Shake]

The fact remains that we are short of pilots, failing to attract new ones in the quantities required and losing those we cannot afford to lose. The result is that those remaining are taking up the slack in an already busy roster. The result is fatigue at levels that are of major concern to the pilots and should be to the management.

Forget fatigue management studies/diaries, ASRs or going sick are the only tools we have to mitigate the current situation as it cannot be avoided.

[hans_airbus]

I am not saying that EK is absolutely perfect, there is always something to improve.

But we should stop draging our employer through the mud. Its a shame.

Be happy that you have a secure job.

If you think that there is a better life beyond Emirates than go. But I tell you there isnt.

I dont compare EK with all these Low cost companies in Europe, I just want to make clear that working in europe is TOUGH.

[Shake]

Hans it is tough working for Emirates and getting tougher, tough enough for many to consider going back to europe where at least they are at home. EK has become for me and them simply not worth it any more.

As for dragging our employers through the mud I think that we should be looking to those who manage to apportion the blame. They are the ones who have ignored all the warnings and have 'led' us to this situation. It doesn't take a great deal of thought to realise that to constantly cut costs in an expanding airline was going to cause serious problems. There was plenty of time to plan ahead and develope our training capacity. Instead we even removed trainers from their positions as they were surplus to requirements to cut costs only to need them back a several months later.

We have persisted in maintaining rigid entry & upgrade policies which are simply unrealistic in todays market. This negligence has led us to our current shortage and requirement for the much resented DECs.

We could have instead chosen to develope the careers of those already in EK and produce all the captains we needed from within. Instead we chose inaction & continued to cut costs in the short term ignoring the long term ramifications.

We are now feeling the effects of these and other decisions. We are short of crews, pilots are not turning up for courses and pilots are leaving. The shortage is putting the strain on the rest of the line, a strain which is causing high levels of fatigue and associated flight safety problems.

A few years ago we knew far less about EK, but on the whole it was mainly positive. As the work force has grown, as has the demands put on them, the news has become more & more negative. The mud dragging on PRuNe is one of the symptoms not the problem.

[waldorfin]

The issue here gents is productivity. A family member of mine is a doc. He works 22 hour days sometimes. The days of big earnings and an armchair styled living is over. This holds true for all professions, tertiary or otherwise. So we look for other comforts. Like job security. EK offers that. Its no good standing in northern Scotland on a winters day insisting on a suntan. Reality needs to be checked and indeed accepted.
Perhaps some of us here have lived and seen the hey days but that’s what they were, the evolutionary absolutes of corporate dimensions dictate that a company such as EK has to play according to the rules dictated by financial survival. BA, AF, KLM have all seen an erosion in offerings, not to mention the North Americans and Australians. A banker in Canary Wharf has had a 20% reduction in earnings over the last ten years. All in the name of productivity in order to secure the future of said companies. So we are not alone.
May I ask that we dispense with the puerile name calling please.

[Vorsicht]

Yeah, nice try Waldo. Not bad for an amateur wind up merchant.

Some of those figures might be true (though i doubt it) but have you checked lately the price of a plumber/electrician/carpenter in Australia.

That's right, they are all earning 6 figure sums. Why? Supply and demand. The market makes the rate.

EK has been the beneficiary of that simple law for many years now, but it appears the table is turning. Although they are happy with their head in the sand, Rome is burning my friend (love mixing my metaphors). They have probably already missed the boat, but given the arrogance of management, it will likely get a lot worse before they acknowledge the problem. Other companies are putting their prices up and we are taking notice. Sure Ryanair aint no picknick, but they pay a lot. When i got here the standard comment was "sure the pay is crap, but the lifestyle is great". And to be honest that was enough for most. Now however the pay is crap and the lifestyle is crap. Job security aint gonna cut it my boy, not when there are other options.

Keep on fiddlin dude. You are truly representitive of the malaise that grips EK management.

[mensaboy]

At what point waldorfin would you stand up and say enough is enough. NEVER i suspect.

Some people come from cultures where criticizing anyone in power, whether employers, government or wealthy individuals, is considered wrong. A few others are simply self-serving and feel voicing support for one's superiors under all circumstances will somehow benefit them. In either case this is a misguided and perilous point of view. I can understand the cultural issue, as its difficult to 'unlearn' what has been taught since childhood, but as for the other individuals, they are simply too self-serving and narrow minded to ever change.

I wish EK the utmost success. I don't know of one pilot who doesn't wish EK to be profitable, successful and the pick of the airlines for pilots around the world. This is our only means of expressing what needs to be done to achieve this goal.

It is not a question of whether or not EK is mismanaging themselves from crisis to crisis anymore. That is obvious to all but those individuals mentioned above.

I don't wish to leave EK as there should be some great benefits of this job. But I have no illusion that I will be here in 5 years if management doesn't get a grip on things and soon. I will not let my health suffer in the name of productivity as you put it. I'm sure what you are really saying is...... PROFIT. But even then, productivity or profit is being affected by cancelled flights, an alarming increase in valid health issues, pilot no-shows, a lack of suitable applicants and the ever present threat of a hull lose with all the associated repercussions. These are real and valid concerns that cannot be excused in the name of a productivity increase. Your complacent attitude and blind support for management policies even to the point of making up excuses for them, is disturbing to say the least.

[Shake]

I have no problem with productivity as long as it is commensurate with an increase in pay. EK has lifted the bar, increased our productivity with no further increase in pay. This has had a direct effect on the quality of life in the desert which was so important to those who came here in the first place.

As mensa points out, the increase in productivity is needed to offset the losses created by mismanagment.

Emirates has changed. It is not what is was or that the PR would have us believe. We are working harder for less and before anyone leaves a secure airline with decent seniority they should know what they are coming to.

[waldorfin]

V you raise a valid point on the supply and demand front. However I have heard this since I left the military a thousand years ago. I agree that there has been an erosion of our income however I must disagree on the lifestyle issue. Goodness I remember a time when all we had was long life milk. (despise the stuff) Today Dubai has all the comforts and yes the troubles of a biggish city. Having experienced both era’s I can tell you there is no contest. Go spend a weekend in Ajman then come talk to me.

There are always exceptions to the rule mate. Perhaps a plumber in Australia is earning big money however that is certainly not indicative of the general situation.

M say enough to what? Do you think any airline management would be swayed by what the pilot workforce want. No my friend its all driven by economics. Is that bad, perhaps my question to you is how is EK different to any other company?

Looking for excuses, don’t think so. Facing reality, yes. That’s where we differ. Believe me I want to get paid loads more, I know it will not happen though.

[ratpoison]

A family member of mine is a doc. He works 22 hour days sometimes
What a load of crap. No body in that profession is legally and even physically able to do that.

[Vorsicht]

Another fairly amateur attempt at spin waldo.

Either that or you still have not been able to grasp the basics of the issues at hand.
The quality of life in Ajman is relevant to those in Ajman, not me. The type of milk i have in my fridge makes little impact on how many days off or how tired i am at the end of a pattern.

And as far as the plumbers in australia go, yes that is the general situation.

Try and find a few facts to support your argument. Who knows maybe someone will listen to you.

[4legsaday]

@Ahead

ahh, you are one of the FILTD´S ("failed in London tried Dubai") Congratulation!

What you have posted here is below all standards mate and reflects your weird personal attitude and professionality, I guess you know this. More to say??

No thanks, you shoot yourself to the moon and you have my deepest sympathy.
Get well soon.

[bushbolox]

Ahad,
The A in A class must stand for arrogant prick.Are you a superior candidate because you joined at an earlier date?. I couldnt join Ek in the 90s because of commitment to the TA in the balkans, does that make me or any later joiners inferior to you. Therein lies the problem. Your not as A class as you think. Real class wouldnt be so discourteous.
In the days that you joined the expat world it was usualy the escapists from the competition that went. If you are the face of old EK then vive la change.

[Ahad Adump]

OOoooooooooooo no one likes me.................
So THIS is how a DEC feels!!!!!

[waldorfin]

My dear boy, rat, you are somewhat uninformed young man. Legalities in medicine, what are you on about. Your naivety astounds me. For your information an intern in any hospital can easily work a 36 hour shift with a few catnaps, nip down to the clinic and ask one of the docs pal. Be man enough to post an apology when you found out your wrong OK.

[chinawladi]

Not that DEC crap again, please!
Everyone, except the cadets, is a DE. Most are DEFO's, but they will be DEC's to the next company, most probably.
So if you don't like to hear that crap by then, shut up now, please!
Stick to fatigue items, what this thread is about.

[ratpoison]

Did someone call me a "young man". Oh, Waldo, i'm beginning to like you. ;)

[Quod Boy]

Waldo and Hans,

You mention that if pilots dont like it,then we should stop moaning and leave?

Unless Im incorrect almost 60(sixty) have taken your advice and that up until this over rapid expansion into the wild blue yonder simply never happened.

Facts, and why nothing is being done(that I can see or hear or read) to arrest this unaccetable loss rate in an expansion is simply staggerring.

Im off to try my hand on an 18hr duty day,then hopefully the pub.

QB:cool:

[411A]

More of this negative nonsense about EK.
IF it was soooooo bad, more would be leaving the sinking ship.
20 or thirty, even 50 don't count, as these are mostly likely to be dis-satisfied copilots who are always complaining...:eek:

Don't like it, leave.
Vote with your feet.

Of course, the next question must be...who would want these malcontents in the first place?:yuk:

[journeyman]

411A,

I notice you have more time on your hands than normal - is the Zimmer frame in for a service?

[Schnowzer]

Hans,

I doubt many people would dispute the fact that EK is not the worst out there, it is we hope a stable job with long term prospects. But, its like a train and how you view the journey depends on which station you got on. I was taught as a lad to respect the views of my seniors because they had seen it all before. I thought it was a load of bunk then but maybe there is actually some truth to it.

If lets say you had got on the train in 2000, you would have been earning 16700AED/Mth. Using the UAE's official government figures for inflation (excluding all the expensive things like rent) you would need to be paid 21700AED/Mth to have the same standard of living joining now as in 2000. Using those numbers, a new joiner gets 18370/Mth which means guys are already prepared to work 15% harder for 15% less pay than in 2000.

If you look at real inflation, an excerpt from an article is attached below, you would actually need to earn around 24,300AED/Mth to have the same standard of living. That means 15% harder for 25% less pay!

Now if you go back even further to 1992, using the governments official figures (1992-2000; 52%. 2000-2005; 29%) to have the same standard of living you would need to earn 28,400AED/Mth. (For real probably 35,000AED). That means 15% harder for 35-50% less pay!

Now you are getting on the train and things look pretty good from where you are standing whilst guys that have been here for a while are moaning about how their conditions have deteriorated. They have! You are prepared to come and work harder for nearly half in real terms of the salary paid to an F/O 15 years ago. For the senior guys it feels even worse because they peak out and then every year they stay they end up working for less and less.

Yes things have changed in the industry and terms and conditions have dropped globally but now the airline is trying to squeeze every drop of blood out of every employee for less and less pay in real terms. That is why guys are now leaving. When I joined it was accepted that it wasn't the best paid job in the world and that we worked a little harder than average but morale was good and most guys enjoyed a better standard of living than before. There was a generally good atmosphere because people felt valued.

You could go to the beach and a 10 minute car journey took 10 minutes. Now the nearest open beach is in Jebel Ali and a 10 minute car journey defies Einstein by taking 40 minutes with 10 near death experiences. No one was leaving then. Now friends of mine that have always been pro-EK are looking to bail because they do not see an end in sight. Leaving home was a good idea because you could make yourself financially stable after a few years. To do that now you will have to stay till 60 and I for one cannot imagine being 60 sleeping in the crew rest on an 18 hour flight from god knows where. I certainly don't feel valued more abused.

The funny thing about it all was that when I got on the train I couldn't understand what the senior guys were on about. I can now!!

Schnowzer

In the UAE, for example, the price of petrol at the fuel stations increased by 32 percent On September 1st. According to a recent survey by Gulf Talent, a Dubai based recruitment agency, rents in the emirate rose 34 percent in the past year. The consumer price index computed by the UAE Central Bank does factor in rents, which are weighted as a third of the index, yet the official inflation figure of 4.7 percent does not seem to reflect the findings of the survey. “Business Monitor International” found that rents in the UAE increased by 20 to 40 percent from last year, as did prices of household goods and services, though relatively less.

A number of informal indicators suggest that the rate of inflation is much greater than what official statistics indicate. A recent survey by HSBC, the Middle East Business Confidence Index (MEBCI), found that a large proportion of businessmen and women were feeling the pinch of higher prices. Almost 70 percent of those questioned, felt that the cost of living had risen by more than 20 percent over the year, and 26 percent thought that it had risen by a staggering 40 percent or more.

Independent studies have also found the price of goods and services are growing faster than what is officially reported. Standard Chartered Plc estimated that prices for goods and services in the UAE rose 10 percent on average last year. London-based Mercer Human Resource Consulting found Dubai to have jumped ten places to become more expensive a city to live in than the likes of Washington.

There is also evidence of second round effects of inflation occurring in the labor market. Many GCC countries have increased wages in the public sector this year. In Saudi Arabia, for instance, wages rose by 15 percent; in the UAE, public sector pay was increased by 25 percent for nationals and 15 percent for expatriates, while Kuwaiti nationals received one-off cash bonuses of $ 680 each from the government last year. Such wage increases and cash bonuses improve the real income of nationals and public sector workers, but at the same time generate extra demand; and in an economy already suffering from supply shortages, it pushes prices even higher.

[ratpoison]

Schnowzer, bloody well said. Excellent comeback with some intelligent facts.
All we need now is for some hero to say, "well it's their TRAIN set". :ok:

[Warlock2000]

OK, I started this and it's getting hijacked by certain individual @rselicks who obviouly don't understand the train theory! (by the way, perfect for those in need of pictures to understand the problem)

The point is this:
We're Fatigued!
It no longer goes about the money, how many days I play golf or how many days I spend at the beach. It goes about my health and the lives of the people behind the cockpit door who pay good money to arrive at their destination safely. Emirates has become a MAJOR carrier and needs to adopt the principals and ethics of such. Please don't compare it to p!sswilly charter operators or to "bring your own luchbox and cooldrink" European shuttle services.
Apples to apples my friends. It's time to take a look and see how they the likes of KLM's (for example) manage flight & duty - they've been around longer than ANYONE else and MIGHT just know what it all about!

(Oh and spare me the "they've been taken over by the Frog's" boolsh!it - IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY)

[Shake]

We get the point Warlock but the issue of fatigue raises all the other issues.

Fatigue issue is the direct result of other problems which have been included above. Nobody I think wanted to hijack or belittle the issue you raised. Yes we are fatigued NO argument there. The only tools at our disposal to mitigate it in the short term is to go sick and raise ASRs.

In the long term we must address the other issues.

[Warlock2000]

Yes, I understand..... :OK:
Just blowing some steam off :eek: All points regarding the destruction of our T&C's are of course valid, and whew, now that I've had a few stiff drinks and my pork sandwich I feel remarkably more relaxed!

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Well O/seas bases should help.............
Too bad theyll only be for new joiners as a way to attract pilots.
B scale is for the loyal boys.............
A scale for the ones who never really wanted to be here....

[Nimmer]

Just like to add that ATC are also fatigued!!!! More planes, more sectors, no more staff, crap procedures and no sign of a pay rise!!!!!

[Schnowzer]

Warlock,

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack anything but wanted to try to explain to some of these mates that as the T&Cs spiral lower there comes a point where you have to draw a line in the sand. I think we are there and solving it will directly effect the levels of fatigue.

As you know, the reason you and I are tired is because we don't have enough crew. Now some of that is by design with the new credit system which means it is much cheaper to work us hard than to get another pilot. Problem is they screwed the pooch because they didn't anticipate that the guys here would tell their mates not to bother fronting up because it just isn't worth it anymore.

To get more pilots of the standard they currently require they need to pay more spondoolies. More pilots = less fatigue a very simple equation!

[footsore]

Go to the portal and see how many Capts and FO' s come up when you put SK in as a duty. If you've been here long enough, check your log book 4,6 or 8 years back and see if you were working this hard. They made money back then didnt they, and the pay was (relatively) competetive by world standards. CX are going to hire DE FO's onto the pax fleet this year and if you check their payscales and accomodation allowance they are way ahead of a EK captain. As for where we all came from, pardon my arrogance but I always thought "experience" and time with the company ("loyalty") were worth paying for. If not, make all cadets 380 captains tomorrow and I'll go to the beach!

Some gutter language removed. 4HP

[ruserious]

Warlock, I am with you on this one, all the bickering about our crap T&C's and how many hours a Doctor works is just a bit of window dressing. However, the real issue for me, is that we have numerous pilots operating outside the restrictions of the FOM and the CARS, i.e 900 hours over the last 12 months (at the end of any given month).
If you have a look at the SK code on the portal, you will find that quite a few of these guys have exceeded their 900 hours, however when they have asked for evidence of a legal document that gives authority to exceed the 900 hours, they are quietly removed from the roster.
Those that don't complain continue to be believe the verbal commentary by rostering and management that "factoring is OK", its not.
Its really simple no FCI exists that modifies the FOM to allow factoring, why, because all FCI's must go through the GCAA for approval.
So if you were over 900 hours on the 1st of January, have a month off, that's what the regulations say.

[Obfuscation]

It's going to be great with 800 fatigued and hungry pax on the UK-Oz run too! This quote running in the Airlines, Airports and Routes thread:

''In the latest issue of Stansted Life the front page is of plans to fly from Stansted to Australia for £300. Although these are only plans, it is said that the airline Emirates Express will fly converted A380 aircraft to accomodate 750 to 800 economy passengers. There will be no catering and passengers will have to bring their own food and drink. Emirates will not launch this project in the short term because it wants to stay a full service airline as it is too 'busy elsewhere' ''

Btw, 49 pilots off sick today. May be inflated due hours exceedence for some?

[4legsaday]

Thanks Schnowzer,
a very nice post you wrote, which, for me, really points out the situation and how it can be seen from the inside, most probably in most of the companies around the globe. To compare a company with a train is really one of the best equals I ever heard, clever point of view.
I do understand very well the situation for those who have been earlier "on the train" but I do also understand well those who are still standing at the train station to pick up "their" train.
Recently I have flown with guys who had to face 2 or 3 bankruptcies, and a lot of them with family, they for example had a very different pont of view for my ex company (major carrier) than I had at this time.
I also have respect for those collegues who have entered my "new train" earlier than I did, without suspecting all of the new passengers ,because they just are doing something that others did before. I plead for non guilty.
Returning to the topic,
-Fatigue Crews- I can prove you that major carriers around the world are operating more on the limits than they did before and JAR FTL are really weird
because they are made 50 years ago to cross the atlantic with a Super Conny and not for the demands of today.
If you ask the ex LTU @ EK guys or some collegues from Lufthansa you may get the same feedback. Only Air France and Alitalia maybe, are left over in Europe with strong unions and really good rosters but for i.e. Alitalia with an very uncertain future.
Remember, we are accepting all of this, with our firms under contracts.
During my entire career I have joined companies because they were in expansion, as we all joined probably (I guess on this we could have an accordance) which brings a lot of the described problems.
So we need more crew, EK is looking at this time for new crews..which means also initially more training, more work until the target goal is reached.That might least some more years and the problem of high crew workload will remain. Are we really expecting breaking news??
In my opinion we have to face an almost global situation which means a mass of non organized individuals like qualified pilots on one side (apart from lowbrainie Ahead Adump) and a very well organized industry which will keep us always at the redline, knowing very well the limits. So the individual has to choose his most favoured "individual package" if this is not satisfying at all, there is mybe only one thing left : to vote with your (our) feets.

4/legs/a/day





salute to all of the CX 49ers

[SecurID]

the UAE, public sector pay was increased by 25 percent for nationals and 15 percent for expatriates

Can I claim back pay then? I did not receive this... :*

[turtleneck]

what use complaining? sure enough at least the lower managers read this, but they don’t care a bit. the upper ones even less. for good reason:
look around and you realise the whole airline business is run on the edge with cynical risk management. it’s simply about profit loss versus hull loss. the driving force is profit, so everything related to cost is the enemy. pilots, as well qualified specialist, are one main enemy, because due to their qualification they expect beeing payed and treated accordingly. so the airlines aim to lower the standards as to get lesser qualified and less demanding pilots. the big jet manufacturers realise that and start advertising their new jets as supposedly monkey-proof. the airlines will happily buy these and consequently start paying peanuts. there are enough keen inexperienced drivers who will jump in and sing the song of how easy these products are to fly, so everybody is happy but the well qualified, kicked out professionals, who are treated as arrogant and overpayed relicts. every now and then, after a crash, some guru investigator comes out with findings pointing at quality, training, qualification, selection, adequate rostering and duty parameters. everybody nods and vows to improve and blah blah blah, then goes back doing nothing, as a hull loss with victims has been estimated acceptable every x-years by management, owners, insurance companies, the media and even the customers as long as they get cheaper fares. that’s the cynicism of our industy.
actually the employee does a similar thing, weighting income loss versus job loss. as long as there are low qualified/experienced pilots beeing offered and accepting lower t+c’s, we’re faced with job loss, thus accept income loss. proving managers that this path will eventually lead to accident and therefore less profit is a lenghty one. sure enough the erosion of qualification and quality will take it’s toll, but as long as the managers think that it will hit other companies first, or they will have long left by then and most importantly, as extensively proven, never have to account for it, they will not change one jota.
we will only be in the driver’s seat during the brief times of staff-shortage, when management has screwed up and has not yet recovered. that’s now! it has been said before: if we fly on our days off, fly into discretion too readily, give up vacation etc. etc., we give up a big advantage. the only time we will be given improvement on t+c’s, is when we are needed and cannot be forced. that’s now! We have to let the s*** hit the fan. it won’t hurt the company. airlines in this region are absolutely not proactive, so they need to be confronted with their failure. on the other hand their dictatorial way of managing enables them to react fast and effectively when it is really needed. thus let’s confront them with their screw-up’s instead of mending fences and giving them the argument “it worked up to now, so why hange?”. this will be to our benefit AND to theirs, because it will result in better overall quality and this has always led to greater success. just look at the car industry: the japanese offering much better quality finally sell more at a better price.
that's what we all want, don't we?
ttn

[havanna]

It would be really interesting to have a look at Hans previous career ?

[UAXCAPT]

Well, I am surprsed to read all this about Emirates! Ihave applied online and nver heard from them.

I am a captain on the CRJ700 with 4500 TT and 800hrs PIC on and 1700hrs as an F/O in the CRJ200& 700. I am not sure what is competetive there but wold love to get on with them and wreck some heavy time and some $$$$...

Their abuse can not be worse than what we get here at the regionals. fly over 85 hrs /month and no money..:confused:

[nostril.hairs]

So what's the deal at EK?

Obviously if they're short staffed, will us fellas with 7000 hours turboprop time be considered for employment, or will they stick to their min 4000 jet time?

OOOH...that hair tickles...!

[email protected]

[tropical wave]

uaxcapt, read turtleneck's post and then read yours

[chinawladi]

I agree tropical wave.
By the way, great post turtle.

[airbus757]

I can see a lot of guys complaining that they are fatigued. No one can deny it is the company rostering that is causing all of this, but to come to an open forum and cry "poor management" is plain idiodic.

If you are fatigued and feel that it is dangerous to fly, then it is your and only your responsibilty to not do the flight.

Now some might say "yeah but if you do that in the middle east it won't be long before you are called in for tea and biscutts." I say boo hoo stop crying and be the "good manager." If you do a flight and have an accident and your family is left all alone in this world It is your fault plain and simple.

What is more important, keeping a job that you don't like or doing what is best for your family.

7

[Warlock2000]

Yes, well the problem is there is no fixed formula to determine FATIGUE and a bunch of pilots calling in fatigued for flights might be seen as orgainised industrial action - which in this country is illegal (except for taxi drivers and construction workers - good on you! Well done).

:ok:

When the accident happens, the evidence will be swept under the rug. Just like the Gulf Air crash and EK JNB incident.....

[airbus757]

I'm not saying a bunch of pilots should do this or that. I'm saying one pilot should not work if he feels he is fatigued. Perhaps then he should go to the doctor and let him know so some time off can prescribed to get his body back in shape.

If the company does not like it then they can stuff it. The pilots life and his family's well being are the number one concern.

If that is not acceptable, then it is time to change companies or get into another line of work. Flying hundreds of people around the world while you believe you are fatigued is not only irresponsible, it is bordering on criminal.

[411A]

I wouldn't worry to much about the 'fatigue' issue at EK, airbus757, as it would seem to be rather a small group of dis-satisified EK copilots all flustered about DEC's.

The 'fatigue' issue would appear to be a facade, as they have crief 'wolf' far too many times in the past.

[gl69]

411a you got some nerve. The posts have nothing to do with DECs (which is a wholelly different matter) but with how much Emirates pilots are working. I myself have averaged 19 days a month for the last 5 months and 94 hours of HARD flight time, ie no trip credit or duty rigs and I am not even close to the high end of the work curve.
Go to the clinic and see how many pilots are fatigued. The number will astounded you. ALso while you are there see how many pilots are clinically depressed. I guess you will say that we are just crying wolf.
Stop drinking the company Kool-Aid and listen to what is being said. I don't believe that anyone is making this up or trying to elisic smypathy. An apology is in order from you 411

[max AB]

GL69, you will get many things from 411A but not an apology. He's not from EK by the way, but of course he's done it all and seen it all. 411A you get them to bite so fast..either way GL69 is correct, fatigue would not be restricted to "non" DECs now would it?

[411A]

Sorry, gl69, you'll get no sympathy from me.
Working 19 days a month, you say, with 94 flying hours?
Sounds a bit easier than a few of my previous months, which averaged right at 100, with 23 days on duty.
You young'ins just can't keep up the pace, it would seem.
If you were promoted, it would still likely be the same refrain...'we is overworked and underpaid'.
A broken record...:{ :{

[gl69]

While we are without question overworked and underpaid I fail to see what difference it matters weather it is the right or left seat. Working right up to the max is not safe and you should know that. I don't know what rag-tag airline you are with since the word on the street seems to say you are not EMirates but 12 days a month working should be the max for long haul. By the way I am out of time for the year and only worked 5 days last month and it was such a relief! I am recharged and a new man.
That does not bode well for my friend here at Emirates who flew 1125 hours last year (not inlcuding the factoring) and then recieved as a belated Christmas gift 6 midnight sim supports in a row. If that is not a recipe for fatigue please tell me what is.

[Vorsicht]

12 days a month = 6 long haul trips.

24 hours layover for each trip = 6 days.

18 days for the company leaves about 12-13 days at home.

For an all long haul operation that sounds about right to me.

How many days would you consider reasnable I-Ford

[donpizmeov]

I-Ford,
I have no problems with flying 100hrs per month, if it was to be done properly. This could be done in 3ish trips, and this would leave a lot of time to recover, get a life etc. Unfortunately, we have a very little man in charge at the moment, who is unable to understand what long haul flying is about. He does not like the idea that pilots should have more time off than anyone else in the company, so has directed that rosters should be made with max hours and min days off (this is also the reason that until recently those that flew the 900hr limit were rostered for SIM support duties until the hour problem went away...can not have those lasy pilots being paid for staying at home!!!). So these long haul flights are now seperated by min rest, then midnight turns, then min rest for the next flight. Rosters of 7days on 1 off, then 7days on 2 off have become the norm for the past 2yrs. And now it is all catching up, not only on the guys that have been doing it, but also on the crew sched fellas, who run out of crews due to this ineffiencent rostering practice. In fact before the pay cut we took a year and a bit ago, this little mans pettiness over ensuring pilots only had min days off was costing the company a bundle, as we would be rostered to fly 90-95hrs, be given the min number of days off, and then if any days were left over they would be turned into reserve days, which back then we got paid for.
Up till now, the Bus fleet has worn the brunt of this. The Boeing has been spared only due to the fact that most of its trips spend more time away from DXB. But once the 773er and 772lr start flying the longer sectors they too will get caught up in it.
There are rumours that some of these rostering practices have been changed, but it will take a few months to see if this is true or not.
So no, EK drivers are not afraid to work. We obviously want the company to do well and maintain our jobs. But we do not feel we need to die while doing so.
Don

[Warlock2000]

As always a breath of fresh Boolsh!t from 411A :D Change your name and try again you w@nker no-one listens to your cr@p anymore!! :p (Sorry 4HP, just exercising a little "freedom of expression") Carry on - this is beauts. 4HP :ok:

OK, now for the SERIOUS people out there.....

I agree that flying 900 hours a year long haul is easily achieved, all it takes is 3 flights a month:

DXB-JFK-DXB = 27h20,
DXB-MEL-DXB = 27H35 and a
DXB-SYD-DXB = 28H40
TOTAL = 83H35 x 10.6 months (365 - leave) = 886 hours

HOWEVER, at Emirates the long haul flights are surrounded by short turn arounds (at the most ungodly hours) which eat away into off days. Compound that by working guys over 100 hours per month and that's where the fatigue issue comes in.

By the way, had to LOVE the message on EVITA (Emirates Voice Information Telephone Access) the last few days:

"This message is for all flight deck crew, unless you are calling sick or volunteering to work today (yeah right!) please do not call crew control as we have too many flights to cover and are unable to help you with any further information....unless it is urgent. Thank you." :oh:

[Dissapointed]

Right on! Now I can really say what I think!
411A you are an absolute tw@t to think that you're drivel is listened to hear. God, I wish that I could really say the word here that I want to use, but I guess that I'd be banned for ever, but it's something along the lines of 'See You Next Tuesday...'
You're way out of touch man! You know absolutely cock all about modern aviation and the way that fatigue can creep up and bite you. You are nothing less than some octogenarian antique that is best put out to grass, or better still, best left to prop up some flying club bar whilst the doey eyed PPLs listen to your stories of 'Lads, now when I was in the war.....' You're opinions are not only unwelcome but uninformed. You're data is hopelessly outdated and worst of all, you're rudeness is overwhelmingly out of synch with the modern way by which we communicate. Today's flight deck is not a Man / Boy environment, many FOs that I fly with are older than me, have greater experience than me and in many cases are probably more capable too. But then I have something that you will never have old man, and that is humility. I also have empathy and that is something that you would not understand, maybe you're just a tad jealous that you are past it and that despite your assertions that you are 'experienced, seen it, done it...etc' you would not get a foothold at a chance of an interview here, even if you did the psychometric evaluation would weed you out and you'd get the 'Thanks, but no thanks' letter that you would deserve.
Now, 441A, why don't you just f*ck off and let the current ATPL holders sort out their issues without bleating on about how good we have it. And before you even go there, no I am not some junior FO with a chip on his shoulder. For what it's worth I am a current EK Captain, 9 years in the company, 17,000 hours in the logbook (and increasing at 900 a year) and have flown everything from Daks to B747s via Tiger Moths and Harvards.
I know that typing that was a waste of time, but gee, I feel much better now!
4HP, do I have to apologise now? Nope but as tic says, chill; you're getting all worked up. Tone down the language please, there's women & children on this site. That's the official line. Unofficially, great post.:ok:

[tic]

411A
I agree with you.
Disappointed, please CHILL OUT. You have your 17000 hrs, you can't be that young yourself. I hear where you coming from, but no need for insults. I've got 17100 hrs. I'm tired like you, but no point complaining. It falls on deaf ears anyway.

[411A]

<<....but no point complaining. It falls on deaf ears anyway>>

Apparently it does, tic, the company can see through these guys, and so can many others.
This 'fatigued' business is just a red herring.
The EK guys joined expecting a rose garden in the middle east, and now they find a weed patch.
Then, along comes 'long haul' and I suppose they thought it was like the old days, Atlantic Barons with very long layovers.
Well, they now find out the way airlines are managed these days...you gotta work for the wages, and sometimes the hours are long indeed.
Nothing new of course, but these EK guys are getting an education, and apparently it is not to their liking.

When they applied to EK, they were asking for work, and now that they have found it, flying the shiny new jets, they can do nothing but complain.
Awww, the poor babies:{ :{

[tic]

411A
I don't fly for EK, but I suppose, being the biggest airline in the Gulf, it is not surprising at the constant whingeing going on. To me, a pilot can do 900 hrs a year. So if you are rostered that way, then accept it. Most airlines roster you normally for far far less. EK doesn't do anything that EY, GF, Qatari etc doesn't. At the end of the day, although your airline want's you to have a stable relationship if you are married,and perhaps with kids, the bottom line is, the profitability of the company you work for. They accept, but don't really care about your personal life. All they want to see is the wheels going up on that particular flight, whether long or short haul. All of us got into this game, initially coz we love flying. Although we love flying, the airline game sucks. Going to work at 2am is not job satisfaction, especially during Xmas or New Year. ( Pax are very selfish sometimes), but we do it to fly, big aircraft. The family does suffer, big time, but, they knew what they were getting into, and accepted that. Those that haven't, are long gone, and many that don't will soon follow. I suspect, that most of the complaining is because of family issues, and not the actual job.

[LHR Rain]

No it is the job and specifically EK. Everyone can deal with the 2am departures. They don't like it but they put up with it. What any pilot can not put up with is 900 hrs a year then on top of that sim support compounded by the constant degradation of T&C with a healthy dose of DECs to make you feel better.

[parcival]

As described on parallel threads flights are being cancelled due to lack of crews.
The crew shortage is a result of unprecedented resignations over the last twelve months along with prospective employees rejecting offers of employment.
This a result of the battering being administered to the Terms and Conditions of EK flight crew in the interest of short term and short sighted cost management.

I believe the phrase is 'the cows are coming home'.

[Warlock2000]

NEWS JUST IN: Another pilot booked off fatigued by the Emirates clinic today.

What do say to that 411A(rseh_le - Doctors "IN" on the fatigue scam too?? :p

[411A]

<<...All they want to see is the wheels going up on that particular flight, whether long or short haul>>
That's it in a nutshell, tic, and quite unlike the old days, when management waved off flights, PanAmerican style, white hats and all.
It is a cut-throat business now, no mistake.
While I can find no particular sympathy for the EK guys, they were apparently presented with a much rosier picture when they applied, offering accelerated Commands, high(er) salaries, grand lifestyle etc, but rapid expansion by the company, together with a much higher cost of living in DXB, and least we forget, rather poor communicative skills by senior management, they now find themselves in rather deep doggie do-do.
What to do?
The Captains at EK surely have an ace up their sleeves, as there are quite a few offers on the table from other airlines (especially in Asia) for their services.
The First Officers however do not have it so lucky.
Even if they were Captains before, they are now playing second fiddle, so the demand for their services elsewhere is less significant.
About all these F/O's can do is wait it out, obtain a command, get a few command hours under their belt, then they will have a much better chance of employment elsewhere, if they so choose.
The bloom went off the rose with airline flying quite some time ago (especially at EK it would appear, and certainly more so in the middle east), but on the other hand, it still is a rather pleasent way to make a living, 900 hours or no.

Let the whinging continue...:E

[LHR Rain]

Get a real job 411. We all know you never had one but I guess that does not stop you from pontificating on industry "norms."

[airbus757]

411A

Man I never thought i would see the day. You have softened up old man. That post of yours is almost from a point of reason and understanding. I must say I like it better when you call it like it is.

Do not change your ways. You might be the only one in here who still calls a spade a spade.

We get enough of the bleeding heart stuff from the other 10 thousand posters here.

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