RyanAir Firm Landings

[silverelise]

Just got back from a week skiing in Alpe D'Huez, a trip top and tailed by RyanAir 737-800 flights between Stansted and Grenoble. The outbound flight (Captain Somebody Sherlock-double barrelled) and the return flight (captain Mick somebody) were notable for their rather firm (to be polite) landings. Having now stemmed the bleeding where my teeth smacked in to my tongue and recovered enough from the whiplash to be able to type ( ;) ) I was just wondering if this "technique" is part of the 737-800 experience, whether they were both just unlucky with the wind (phnarr), whether RyanAir doing some suspension testing for Boeing, or there is some other genuine reason why both landings were like that or were we just unlucky?

[Hotel Tango]

Many many factors affect landings. Some require deliberate firm landings. You can't honestly expect a factual answer from what little information you give.

[catchup]

As long as tochdown time doesn't equal on block time, don't worry.

:):):)

[Memetic]

Having now stemmed the bleeding where my teeth smacked in to my tongue

Were you never told it is rude to poke your tongue out? And foolish to do so whilst approaching tarmac at 100+ miles an hour?



Have a look at the following for some more sensible answers :) on this much discussed topic:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185259&highlight=hard+landing

[MarkD]

if the landings were autoland I understand firmness is part of the program...

[Shadowfox]

Back last September on a Ryanair flight from BHX to Dublin, we approached our destination on a nice fine evening. No wet, no winds etc. The plane slammed so hard into the runway that it was the first time that I was GLAD I had the seat belt strapped tight. Coming to the terminal it almost felt like he was taking corners on 2 wheels

Wonder why Aer Lingus don'nt have that problem ??

[MarkD]

Different aircraft, different autoland?

[Final 3 Greens]

Shadowfox

IF you wish to understand the answer to your own question, here is what I suggest that you do.

1 - qualify as a pilot

2 - land several hundred times and note the differences between the landings

3 - realize that landing is an art, not a science

4 - realize that all pilots sometimes land more firmly than they wish

5 - understand that the firm landings experienced are well within parameters & safe

6 - then get frustrated with ignoramusses who dont understand ;)

[firemac]

Not just Ryanair (although I tend to think you can't have a greaser if you ain't paid for it...).

I travel several times a year to & around Australia from UK & I have yet to experience anything other than a teeth-rattling landing on Quantas. I've come to the conclusion that the Aussie flight crews work on the principle that "we've paid good money for the gear so we're going to bloody well use it!"

Either that or they simply lose interest in the approach at 50 feet or so.:D

[TheFlyingDJ]

"we've paid good money for the gear so we're going to bloody well use it!"

:D haha!

Anyway, like allready said, depends on the situation. Sometimes u just need to go on deck hard because of runway length. When you have a fully loaded 737 with lets say just 1800 meters, you better hit the deck and let the autobrake do its work :D (EHGG example)

edit: typo

[Self Loading Freight]

And anyway, in a Boeing aren't you supposed to fly through the runway rather than land on it? Not quite sure how that's supposed to work with the flare, but then I haven't been through stages 1 through 6 on the aviation appreciation course detailed above!

But I agree with the original poster - Ryanair seem to enjoy Operation Smackdown more than the other 737 operators to whom I entrust my bum. Also, they taxi faster.

I have been told on many occasions that this isn't true.

But it is.

R

[TightSlot]

This thread is starting to get silly, and irritating.

FR do not experience "hard" landings any more than other operator.

Earlier on in this thread, Final 3 Greens has given an answer that is accurate and well worth a re-read before we all move on

Take a look here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2333928&postcount=8 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2333928&postcount=8)

--------------------------------------------------

P.S. Occasionally, when disembarking and saying goodbye, customers feel it necessary to pass on to me their assessment of a landing - "That was the worst I've ever had", "Did he have a row with his wife?" etc. etc. I usually reach for the Flight Deck door and ask whether they would be so kind as to share their comments with the Captain, as our Pilots welcome all feedback, and are always pleased to meet industry professionals. Strangely, nobody has yet taken up this offer
:hmm:

[BOAC]

1) I fly Classic and NG. I have never flown with RyanAir so I cannot 'assess' their landing skills. I would assume they are pretty much in the 'average' bracket of airlines in this area.

2) The above, From 'Finals'

"Shadowfox

IF you wish to understand the answer to your own question, here is what I suggest that you do.

1 - qualify as a pilot

2 - land several hundred times and note the differences between the landings

3 - realize that landing is an art, not a science

4 - realize that all pilots sometimes land more firmly than they wish

5 - understand that the firm landings experienced are well within parameters & safe

6 - then get frustrated with ignoramusses who dont understand ;)"

I've been putting jets of various sorts onto runways (and some tin pads) now for over 4 decades(:eek: ) - and the above is absolutely correct.

Apart from yet another 'bash' at RyanAir I cannot see where this thread is going apart from into the bin.

Edited to say not quite as old as I feel

[firemac]

"This thread is starting to get silly, and irritating." - Chill, Man (or Miss..)! We non-professionals have opinions, even if they are sadly lacking in professional/technical experience. If such is not welcomed then maybe PRuNE should make it a "professionals-only" site.
"I usually reach for the Flight Deck door and ask whether they would be so kind as to share their comments with the Captain, as our Pilots welcome all feedback, and are always pleased to meet industry professionals. Strangely, nobody has yet taken up this offer" - I usually find that comments to cabin crew about "iffy" landings are taken in the spirit they are intended in, i.e. jocular. My experience has been that cabin crew often reply with a more stinging (but witty) criticism of the guy in the LHS than anything I've ever suggested.
It is often seasoned SLF's who make such jokes; inexperienecd pax's are sometimes too traumatised/relieved to say anything & simply get off the a/c as fast as possible!
You seem to be wound a bit tight....:D

[TightSlot]

Chill, Man (or Miss..)! We non-professionals have opinions, even if they are sadly lacking in professional/technical experience.

Nicely chilled firemac, thank you - and neither shaken nor stirred :O

This forum exists precisely because you have opinions and wish to express them. It also exists so that non-professionals can get useful answers from the professionals, and, as I increasingly find, vice versa.

What is irksome is that when a coherent answer is given by not one, but many professionals, on this, and other threads - it is ignored!

To reassure you - some customers make comments about landings that are not jocular, but quite serious, and they get the flightdeck visit question above: I can read people well enough to know when they are trying to be pleasant, and respond accordingly.

I've been flying for just over 25 years as Cabin Crew, and am now described as "Old School" by more people at work than I care to know about. My employer is presently working flat out to encourage us old folk to leave, so that we may be replaced by younger cheaper and better looking models from Eastern Europe; doubtless the kind of cabin crew that will cheerily pass comment on the quality of a pilots' landing to a customer. I was taught that you don't do that. Ever! There are lot of other things that the old timers were taught that don't seem to apply any more, but let's not go there now... Sigh

One bright day in the future, one of you will be sitting back in your Loco seat, sipping your £5 Pepsi and struggling to understand an 18 year old Slovakian stewardess with attitude explain why they had to leave your baggage behind due to weight restrictions and you'll think...

"It wasn't always like this?" - and you'll miss us :E

[Globaliser]

P.S. Occasionally, when disembarking and saying goodbye, customers feel it necessary to pass on to me their assessment of a landing - "That was the worst I've ever had", "Did he have a row with his wife?" etc. etc. I usually reach for the Flight Deck door and ask whether they would be so kind as to share their comments with the Captain, as our Pilots welcome all feedback, and are always pleased to meet industry professionals. Strangely, nobody has yet taken up this offerBut I was sure that it was one of your customers who asked the captain, "Sonny, did we land, or were we shot down?" :D

[Final 3 Greens]

Hey BOAC "I've been putting jets of various sorts onto runways (and some tin pads) now for over 40 decades( ) - and the above is absolutely correct."

I know that you have a bigger licence than mine and are much more experienced, but you must have taught Methusulah to fly :}

[BOAC]

Nice spot, F3G!:) I thought I felt tired today. Edit:O

PS Sent M solo.

[flyblue]

Knowing what goes on behind the F/D door, well before the pax board and well after they've disembarked, I've often thought it was funny that the only bits the pax ever notice is the landing (already been covered in this thread) and turbulence (that you get only when the pilots can do nothing to avoid it: when they've bent over backwards to avoid it, they don't get any credit).

[MarkD]

firemac - have those QF landings been on their 738s? Might account for the similarity with FR's.

[firemac]

No. Usually 747's & 767's. Sorry, I recall one 747 landing @ Sydney that was the perfect greaser (usually the norm on a Jumbo); however a pax suggested that Capt must have been ex-BA.......;)

[Wing Commander Fowler]

For what it's worth I've flown classics both 3s and 4s and now some 4000hrs on the 800's and I can promise you she (the mighty 800) can be a funny bitch! Ya can get it right, right and right again and every now again she catches you out....... Don't be too hard on the young guns at the front - I can promise you they want the greaser more than you! :ok:

[kms901]

i have been told that Boeing recommend a firm landing for the -800, partly to ensure all the weight-on-wheels sensors operate. Mind you, I have also been on the end of a few Ryanair downwind landings as well. I reckon about 1 in 5 of my landings in light aircraft is a bit lumpy- always when someone important is watching !

[silverelise]

Many thanks one and all for the replies and explanations. I didn't realise there was a culture of bashing Ryan Air - my post was certainly not intended to be in that ilk, and I was careful to describe the landing as "firm" rather than "heavy" or "ohmygodhavewecrashed". I also didn't know that aircraft had autoland and how it is activated. But thanks to the posts and links on this thread I do now.
So as a humble piece of inquisitive SLF, I now feel suitably educated by the experts.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

As others have mentioned, we 'young guns' enjoy a greaser up the front as much as you do down the back. Sometimes it just isn't possible - if it's a windy day and the aircraft you are sitting in is approaching a short lumpy runway (Leeds and Bristol spring to mind:ugh: ) then don't expect one. Other times of course we get caught out, I'll admit to that - as the Wing Commander points out the NG is a twitchy bugger near the ground. Airbus pilots, so I am told, have no such excuse;)

[vfenext]

as the Wing Commander points out the NG is a twitchy bugger near the ground. Airbus pilots, so I am told, have no such excuse What a load of cobblers!!

[Final 3 Greens]

All aeroplanes are twitchy buggers near the ground :}

[Wing Commander Fowler]

tut tut....... those that have and those that will! :rolleyes:

[jackbauer]

Now all Ryanscare need is a few of "those who know how" to prove that a lack of experience in their flightdecks is the real reason for the planting of their aircraft on a regular basis. Any truth in the rumor your CC carry watering cans?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

vfenext

What do you consider cobblers, the bit about the 737 or the bit about the bus?:D

As for the watering cans, I guess you would have to ask someone who actually works for Ryanair about that one. But jack has a point, lack of experience is a terrible thing.

[jackbauer]

When you have capt's with less than 4000hrs and f/o's with less than 400hrs then things happen I'm afraid. The combined experience in that flightdeck is not enough to get command in any reputable airline. With the attention the Ciampino, Skavsta and Beauvais incidents are getting perhaps the wheels are starting to come off this flying circus. Luck is all that's prevented FR from having a very serious accident. Of course there are experienced people in the airline but they are spread too thin and the company is at a point where it will accept anything that meets the min requirements to get aircraft in the air. The David Learmont article discussed elsewhere on pprune makes for excellent reading.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I agree with some of what you are saying jack. They certainly have a crewing shortage, the fact they are using Eirjet aircraft and crew to operate some services at the moment is proof enough of that. The incident at Skavsta was worrying but the Ciampino one had nothing to do with lack of experience, in fact the situation was well handled by a relatively inexperienced FO.

I don't know what criteria you apply when considering if an operator is 'reputable', but the company I work for is certainly reputable in terms of its approach to safety, training and standards and a command with 4,400 (relevant) hours is quite possible with us.

[bacardi walla]

I wonder how firm the landing would have been in Rome had the F/O not decided to intervene :confused:

[jackbauer]

the Ciampino one had nothing to do with lack of experience, in fact the situation was well handled by a relatively inexperienced FO.
According to the report I have read he did less than he should have and did not assert himself when it was obvious the capt was losing it. The words "I have control" were not used. He was less than praised for his handling and the conclusion was that the outcome was the result of luck rather than design. All this after BOTH pilots had a total loss of situational awareness both lateral and vertical. If this is not scary then I dont know what is. I have spoken to someone who has seen the parameters from the DFDR recorded on the day and there is a lot more to this than we are hearing.

[bacardi walla]

I have spoken to someone who has seen the parameters from the DFDR recorded on the day and there is a lot more to this than we are hearing.

Now why am I not surprised at reading that :confused:

[The Real Slim Shady]

When you have capt's with less than 4000hrs and f/o's with less than 400hrs then things happen I'm afraid. The combined experience in that flightdeck is not enough to get command in any reputable airline.
bmi - do you count them as reputable?- permit commanders to have 3500 hours.
Flybe - do you count them as reputable? Probably the same. BA Connect / Citiexpress probably the same. Pretty standard in the Part A / Vol 1 that upgrade commanders can have 3500 hours if X hours is on company aircraft.

What great knowledge or experience allows you to decide that 4000 hours for a commander is inadequate in some way, or that 400 hours for an F/O is inadequate?

What exactly constitutes a reputable as opposed to a disreputable airline?

[jackbauer]

Oh come on, you are not seriously comparing FR with all those reputable airlines you mentioned are you? The dogs in the street know the kind of gash outfit we are talking about here and how the corners are cut at every opportunity. With all the incidents being talked about on prune and all the internal disputes, court cases and a loose cannon ceo, you will have them rolling in the aisles with this one. Given the choice of my family flying with a BA 4000 hour Capt (if such exists) and an FR 4000 hour capt I know which one the majority here would choose. Don't embarrass yourself with this drivel!! When was the last time a BA Chief training Capt failed his sim check TWICE in a row? I'll wager never, can you say the same about FR.....eh NO you can't, and he's still in that position today. Utter nonsense and cronyism abounds and you think it's reputable..jeez!!

[The Real Slim Shady]

You didn't answer the questions!!!
Given the choice of my family flying with a BA 4000 hour Capt (if such exists) and an FR 4000 hour capt I know which one the majority here would choose
Unless the ticket price is wildly expensive and FR serve the same area and the majority would probably elect to have the cheaper ticket and save you some money whilst flying your family on a nice shiny new 737NG which hasn't been maintained by BA. :\ ;)
The opinion of that most venerable British institution on your "reputable" airline is here
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1965953,00.html

[vfenext]

When was the last time a BA Chief training Capt failed his sim check TWICE in a row? I'll wager never, can you say the same about FR? You didn''t answer this one either I think? If you FR guys need to compare yourselves to other reputable companies to make yourselves feel good, so be it. The rest of us know better. As far as the shiny 738 is concerned, the way you guys fly them into places like Skavsta, Beauvais and Ciampino I think I'll stay on the ground, even if the ticket is 1cent.

[kms901]

Oh, Well off to Ancona on Tuesday with Ryanair. I expect the usual firm down wind landing. But it's a shiny new aeroplane and I have an even chance of understanding the safety/cabin announcements. The landings are FIRM, no more than that.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

The point is you don't need circa 10,000 hours to get a command in a decent company, and I think it's piss poor that you are generalising that every captain at Ryanair with around 4000 hours is inferior to a captain of similar experience in another 'reputable' airline. Yes there have been alarming incidents in their recent history and I despise the way O'Leary operates.

For the record I don't work for them and I have no vested interest in defending them, but I do believe in granting their pilots some respect.

[The Real Slim Shady]

BitMore RightRudder has hit the nail on the head.
VFE and JB are taking a very straightforward question, which was answered in a most considered way, and simply ignoring that answer.
Not content with that, they try to serve us with their own Ready, Steady, Cook masterpiece: a hotchpotch of ingredients cobbled together, which has the veneer of a Cordon Bleu dish but on inspection is raw and bitter. Just add a sprinkle of Ryanair, to spice things up, an unhealthy ladle full of fermented vitriol, a liberal serving of homemade meritocracy, top it with generalisation and add a dollop of whipped up arrogance for good measure.
It is extremely easy to bandy around words like reputable or disreputable; to hang those claims on such trivia as firm or soft landings or to obliquely reference the gentleness of the landing to experience or ability signifies a complete lack of understanding of swept wing aircraft handling and a robust indifference to the mutual respect we have for each other.
Selecting an item in isolation and using it to colour wash the entire canvas is a simple, attention grabbing headline technique analagous to a child throwing a tantrum.

[HotelGym]

Slim Shady, do all Ryanair pilots take classes in evasive and flowery english? Your post is worthy of a LHC award for services to bull****. I for one agree with VFE and JB about the level FR has dropped to. I am very curious about the chief training capt and his sim failures, is it true?

[jackbauer]

http://images.bm4.metropol.dk/205/205972/205972_normal.jpg Just when Slim shady thought it was safe to tell us how great the Ryanair landings were this happens today in Aarhus. Bet it was a greaser, thankfully nobody hurt, except the capts pride, how many hours did he have? Perhaps it was the chief training capt. FR is getting a real collection of these incidents, so far we have Skavsta, Beauvais, Ciampino and now Aarhus. Where next?

[TightSlot]

Thread closed - it is getting heated and going nowhere. I only know thumbnail details of the incident shown in the image above, but what I do know is that the report into it has not yet been published, and therefore speculation about the cause and blame is precisely that. Attempting to make a general point about an airline from a specific incident, in the absence of facts, is clearly unwise.