R22 crash in Abbotsford BC Canada

[407 Driver]

The local news is reporting an R22 breaking up in flight this afternoon in Abbotsford BC (CYXX), killing the student pilot and the instructor.

[HeliEng]

Very sad news once more.

This seems to be a regular occurance at the moment.

Condolences to all their friends and family.

[advancing_blade]

My condolences to the families.

I used to fly around CYNJ. I know that the crew names are not used on the web, but do you know the aircraft reg'. I don't want to have to call people I know to ask, if?.

[Lord Bramble]

check out the story on www.vancouversun.com (http://www.vancouversun.com)

[Lu Zuckerman]

The nature of my work is to ensure that aircraft being designed are as safe and reliable as possible. In many if not most cases my suggestions are ignored either because they would add cost to the program or, the designer does not like to be second-guessed.

It pains me when I read about airplane crashes that could be avoided and my heart goes out to the families of those individuals that die because some engineer didn’t want to have his design criticized or he didn’t want to add cost to his program.

I too have been criticized on this forum for being so outspoken about Robinson Helicopters but this incident I believe is the 35th or 36th Robinson to suffer a rotor incursion. At what point will the engineers at Robinson Helicopters and the NTSB take notice that there might be a problem in the design? All of these accidents so far have been blamed on the pilot and many of the pilots involved are very high time. Many of you train in or fly Robinson Helicopters. I believe it is high time that you start asking questions relative to the flight safety of the design.


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The Cat

[B Sousa]

Raise a glass or two in memory to those lost in the accident. RIP.
There are a lot of Robbies out there and many folks with thousands of hours logged in R-22s
Im just glad Im not one of them.

[This message has been edited by B Sousa (edited 18 May 2001).]

[newschopper]

I'm often surprised by the anger with which people reply to Lu's posts. It seems that there's an emotional attachment to R-22's that might not be supported by strictly non-emotional evidence.

The R-22, to put it in emotional terms, makes me nervous. I won't fly in them. I wish someone could explain to me why people are willing to risk everything to fly an aircraft about which there's so much controversy. In logical terms, I can't justify flying in an aircraft so unstable that the Feds had to create a SFAR for them. Yes, you can fly for a long time without an accident. But then again, there have been many accidents.

No one has the same safety and design questions about the S300C or the Enstrom F28 or other light training helicopters; why is the R22, with its problems so attractive? Can it be that people will rationalize its safety solely in the name of lower operating cost?

[IHL]

Lu : You've been around helicopters for quite a while. The Bell 47 is an underslung rotor system ( if I remember correctly), which trained a lot of new pilots . Did it have any accidents attributed to mast bumping or inflight brake-ups?

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: IHL

To my knowledge mast bumping didnt start until the era of the 206 and the 204.

The Bell 47 rotorhead incorporated two limiting stops in the form of Sprague cables. These cables limited the travel of the teetering. If in the process of maneuvering and the teeter limits were exceeded the cables would become taut and the teetering energy would be transmitted to the mast. This would cause the mast to tilt and as a result the engine would move in the opposite direction. The engine movement was also limited by Sprague cables and it too would come up hard on its’ stops. This would translate into a very large "bump" for the lack of a better word and the pilot would be warned to back off on his cyclic input. If the pilot entered into a zero G situation and the rotor went unstable the Sprague cables would keep the rotor from hitting the mast. The ride would be extremely unpleasant for the pilot but he would not incur mast bumping.

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The Cat

[This message has been edited by Lu Zuckerman (edited 18 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Lu Zuckerman (edited 18 May 2001).]

[IHL]

Lu : Now that you mentioned it I vaguely remember "sprag cables" but it's been almost 20 years since I flew one. It may be that Bell had a winning design with the 47. I'll have to hit the books and do some review.

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: IHL

The last good helicopter built by Bell was the J2 Ranger. After that everything went down hill. IMHO

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The Cat

[Cyclic Hotline]

Condolences to the families and colleagues of all involved.

CBC TV Website.
Helicopter crash victims identified

ABBOTSFORD, B.C. - Abbotsford Police have released the names of the two men killed in a helicopter training flight accident on Wednesday.

Douglas Currie, 41, of Abbotsford was the flight instructor. He had more than 4,000 hours of experience.

Both he and his student, 25-year-old Peter Alton Mathews of Burns Lake, B.C., died when their helicopter broke apart in flight, and crashed into a farmer's field.

The wreckage of the Robinson R-22 has been sent to Victoria for further examination, in an effort to determine what caused the accident.

[The Sultan]

Lu

Relative to your Bell comment: "IMHO" you are really full of **** . The J2 was some 47 derivative, I believe. The turbine powered 206 Jetrangers are the B and L series which are the best helicopters ever produced for the commercial market. There are no J series 206's. Since we have to go back to the 47J series to earn your respect, I would like to know what is wrong with the following:

The 204/205 Huey
The 212
The 209 Cobra
The 412

"IMHO", these aircraft are the basis that the whole commercial industry has been built and. All are still in service and continue to be part of new acquisitions. Lucky for us you never worked on them.

The Sultan
ESOD

[The Sultan]

Oh I forgot the following Lu,

I work for a helicopter manufacturer (guess which) and have over 25 years and thousands of hours of flight experience. This may put me in your eyes below prositutes and drug dealers but, it does put me way above the lawyers and the baiters, like you, that work for them.

The Sultan

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: The Sultan

Since you are so supportive of the Bell Helicopters, I would venture that you work for Bell. However, the real giveaway is that you live in Arlington, Texas. I will respond although it takes this thread off track.


You stated,
“I work for a helicopter manufacturer (guess which) and have over 25 years and thousands of hours of flight experience. This may put me in your eyes below prostitutes and drug dealers but, it does put me way above the lawyers and the baiters, like you, that work for them”.

“The Sultan”

I don’t know why you would think that I would look upon you as being lower than a prostitute or a drug dealer just because you work for a helicopter company. If I fostered those feelings I would be condemning myself to that same low level.

You are not the only one that has worked for a helicopter company. Aside from a detour into the aerospace industry for about 10 years I worked for the following helicopter manufactures. Sikorsky where I worked as a techrep and for two years managing a training program for the US Army. I worked at Lockheed on the Cheyenne helicopter until the program was cancelled. I worked for Hughes on the Apache program. I worked for Agusta on the A129 and EH-101 programs and last but not least, I worked for Bell Helicopter International for three years as manager of technical assistance. This is where I discovered the quality lapses in Bell helicopters including the AH1-J Cobra and the 214. Agusta built all of the other helicopters in our fleet of 900 or so helicopters.

The only basic problem we had with the Agusta built helicopters were problems that were designed in by Bell. From a quality standpoint every helicopter built by Agusta was heads above the same models built by Bell due to the high level of quality control and manufacturing expertise. The same was true for Boeing Vertol and Sikorsky helicopters

The 214s and the AH1-Js required around 60-70 maintenance man hours per flight hour and the 206s and 205s required a lot of maintenance simply because they were designed by Bell. Working for Bell I would suggest that you check the IPLs for all of your helicopters and see if any of them have a consistent run of part numbers or, if the parts contain the prefixes of 204, 205, 206, 209 all the way to 214. Check all of your helicopters and I’ll bet that none of them are continuous. If a part was good on one helicopter then when used on another helicopter design it would be most likely be good. If it was bad it will continue to be bad in all applications.

You indicated that you have 25 years with Bell. That in it self is commendable. Give or take a few years that would mean that you started in 1975 or 1976. In 1976 I was 46 years old and I had been involved with helicopters since 1949 which means that I had been associated with helicopters for 27 years when you were just getting started in the industry. That in itself gives me the right to be critical.

Regarding the J2 Ranger it was the last of the model 47 series and although I didn’t fly it I put many hours as a passenger flying from Huntington Beach, CA to Santa Monica. Guess which company I was working for at the time.

I have a personal philosophy about Bell. They sell their helicopters cheap and sell their spares expensive.

Anyone else like to comment on this?

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The Cat

[This message has been edited by Lu Zuckerman (edited 19 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Lu Zuckerman (edited 19 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Lu Zuckerman (edited 20 May 2001).]

[B Sousa]

Nobody wants to fight with the "Cat".
I dont know if Im fortunate anymore to say that I have flown Bell products for over thirty years. Problems have been minor and could have been in anything.
I certainly think Bell Management stepped on their whatevers when the Military Surplus aircraft hit the streets in the last few years. Had they been supportive to a lot of those Law Enforcement agencies Im sure their sales would be out the roof. They were the total opposite and from where I sit. Im betting it cost them Millions maybe more in Aircraft and Parts sales.. I also believe Eurocopter took advantage and kicked their asses big time.
As to "The Sultan" according to what I can gather hes either using his daughters computer or has problems. (just joking, ask your daughter to give you a screen name or she will be reading your email)
My latest appreciation of Bell was a "Factory L" checkout. I was very impressed with the check pilot and his ability to instruct. It allowed me to feel much more comfortable in the machine.
As to the technical jargon listed above. It sometimes get scary as a Pilot not a Mechanic. I know where the fuel goes and where the oil goes, but I dont know the tolerances for the spline gears in the whatever.
Oh well, Im sure my last flight will be in a Bell product.

[The Sultan]

Lu,

I think you verified my earlier comments.

The Sultan

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: The Sultan

You indicated that I have vindicated you relative to your comment about me.

Are these the comments you were referring to? “I work for a helicopter manufacturer (guess which) and have over 25 years and thousands of hours of flight experience. This may put me in your eyes below prostitutes and drug dealers but, it does put me way above the lawyers and the baiters, like you, that work for them”.

It appears that you are very defensive about Bell products. Now, if you want to get into a pissing contest about the quality and reliability of Bell Helicopters I will be more than happy to engage you.

Your comment about lawyers is made as a representative of a helicopter company and you look down on them because they take so much money from the aircraft companies. First of all the law allows this so it is perfectly legal. Secondly the money they get is as a result of the aircraft companies or operators being found at fault and thirdly if one of your family members is involved in an aircraft crash you would most likely contact a lawyer so what is your point.

Granted there are legal cases where the aircraft companies got screwed but these are the exception and not the rule. Besides, what is so bad working for a lawyer and selling your technical expertise to help him win a case? I am presently retained by two lawyers regarding a helicopter crash and I worked for a third lawyer on another helicopter crash. It helps to feed my family.



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The Cat