BA CitiExpress Flight BA8703 EDI-LCY Evacuates at EDI after preflight engine fire

[sinala1]

"Passengers on board a British Airways flight at Edinburgh Airport have had to use the plane's emergency escape shutes after a fire in an engine. The aircraft was taxi-ing to the main runway for takeoff when the incident occurred. The pilot of the plane - which was bound for London's city airport - shut down the engine and the fire was put out. One passenger described how he saw flames coming from a starboard engine. No one's been injured..."

News Article Here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4601342.stm)

Are any of the crew involved reading these forums? Would be interesting to hear what they have to say (provided they are allowed to talk about it etc)... A similar thread is running here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=205827) in Rumours and News, with someone stating that it took 10 mins to evac the RJ100 - sounds somewhat unlikely that an evac of 86 pax took 10 minutes? :confused:

[Tixie-Bell]

I think a lot of confusion went on between flight crew and the purser. They initiated the evacuation when they didin't need to flight crew were a bit shocked when they noticed the fwd door had opened and the engines wern't shut down? ooops:eek:

[sinala1]

Flight crew were a bit shocked when they noticed the fwd door had opened and the engines wern't shut down? ooops:eek:

If true, then Ouch... will be interesting to hear/read the full report and the circumstances surrounding the evac, when it becomes available...

[marlowe]

Instead of criticising the crew why not wait for the facts to be published i think then praise might be more appropriate for a job well done by the cabin crew it was 86 pax in 2mins 30 secs

[sinala1]

Instead of criticising the crew why not wait for the facts to be published i think then praise might be more appropriate for a job well done by the cabin crew it was 86 pax in 2mins 30 secs
Marlowe if you read my posts correctly, you will see that I am in no way criticising any of the crew at all:
A similar thread is running here in Rumours and News, with someone stating that it took 10 mins to evac the RJ100 - sounds somewhat unlikely that an evac of 86 pax took 10 minutes?
Not me stating that it took 10 minutes - just repeating what someone else said
Would be interesting to hear what they have to say (provided they are allowed to talk about it etc)...
Asking for the crews input, not making any judgements...
If true, then Ouch... will be interesting to hear/read the full report and the circumstances surrounding the evac, when it becomes available...
Again not making any judgements - saying "IF" true...
I quite look forward to reading the full report, as I am sure we can all learn from the experiences of others :ok:


If, of course, your post was not directed at me then I happily retract my response post :D

[marlowe]

not directed at you mate just in general i know the facts on this one and well lets just say that its best to wait for the full report

[sinala1]

well lets just say that its best to wait for the full report
Of course... the official reports often (usually) put to rest any/all of the suggestions and discussions that have taken place regarding a particular incident. Congrats to the crew on a safe evac and I look forward to knowing all the facts regarding this incident! ;)

[Classic]

Of course... the official reports often (usually) put to rest any/all of the suggestions and discussions that have taken place regarding a particular incident. Congrats to the crew on a safe evac and I look forward to knowing all the facts regarding this incident! ;)

We don't know it was a safe evac. Lets save the congratulations until the report shows they are deserved.

[sinala1]

We don't know it was a safe evac. Lets save the congratulations until the report shows they are deserved.
Sounds like you know more about this than we do? :confused: Or do you think, based on the publicly available info so far, that incorrect action was taken?

Either way, going solely on the info we have so far, I think its going to make a good CRM refresher case study

[Classic]

I've no more info than anyone on this but I feel very uncomfortable about making a judgement on something I know very little about. We seem to have a habit of falling over ourselves to praise people doing exactly the job they're paid to do.
What reason do we have for congratulating the crew? For all we know, it could have been a shambles and the pax got themselves off. I doubt it very much, but we shouldn't prejudge.

[sinala1]

We seem to have a habit of falling over ourselves to praise people doing exactly the job they're paid to do.

I agree with you cabin crew are there 100% for safety and thats what we get paid to do, however evacs happen rarely to most of us, if ever - I know crew who have been flying for 20 years who have had nothing happen to them at all (no medicals, no a/c problems) - so for us, an evac is a chance to put into practice all the stuff we have studied for and practiced so many times in drills etc.

I strongly believe crew (flight and cabin) deserve praise when they properly handle a situation that is outside the normal day to day part of their jobs - going by the logic of "people doing exactly what they are paid to do" you could say that a pilot dealing with engine failure, RTO's, single engine go-arounds or to a more extreme example the JetBlue A320 that landed with the nosewheel at 90 degree angle - are just doing "what they are paid to do" - as this is all (mostly? Not sure about the 90degree nosewheel one! :ugh: ) stuff you cover in the sim twice a year...

For what its worth, I think anyone who deals with stuff like that deserves congratulations :ok:

[Classic]

For something we don't expect or practise for, then we should give appropriate praise, but not for a trained for and practised procedure, imho, and definitely not until we have the facts to make a judgement on.
I've had 2 engine failures in the past. I landed, filled in a form and debriefed the engineers, had a quick word with my manager, gone home and had tea. Thought nothing more of it and certainly neither deserved nor looked for praise.

[sinala1]

Haha well it looks like this is going to be an "agree to disagree" thing - because I definately believe that situations like those described (for both cabin and flight crew) can be highly stressful and, although practised for, not really experienced that much - and congratulations on a job well done is definately required. I am not necessarily referring to this particular incident when I say that - I am speaking in a general sense. As far as this incident goes, as you have said, the report will make informative and interesting reading!

[marlowe]

Why dont we wait for the official report and then all will be clear, what is wrong with praising the crew for a good job done? all Pax off A/C no injuries it will be a sad world when in any job you dont get a pat on the back once in a while from the boss, but of course thats the british way always do the person down never build them up. any crew out there you dont know how you would have reacted given the same situation i sincerly hope we never have to discuss your decisions on a potentially catastrophic situation on these forums and if we do i hope you can contribute

[Pilot Pete]

For something we don't expect or practise for, then we should give appropriate praise, but not for a trained for and practised procedure, imho, and definitely not until we have the facts to make a judgement on.
I've had 2 engine failures in the past. I landed, filled in a form and debriefed the engineers, had a quick word with my manager, gone home and had tea. Thought nothing more of it and certainly neither deserved nor looked for praise.


I'd just like to say congrats for being such a cold, calm, collected individual who takes it all in his stride. Remember that not all people are like you and dare I say it on here, but Cabin Crew tend to be a little more touchy feely than perhaps you are. If you have any appreciation of CRM you may understand that praise for doing a good job, even if trained for and paid for, is something that helps some individuals feel better about themselves and their job, which in turn may have a positive effect on 'your' team.

However, this is a 'rumours' forum, so good luck to those who want to heap praise or criticize based on little of substance. If they followed procedures and it lead to an evac then well done. If they cocked it up then lets all try and learn from it.

PP

[Classic]

Thanks for describing me as 'cold'. Nice touch, that.

As for CRM requiring praise to be heaped on people doing a job, go and reread your notes on what CRM is really about.

[Pilot Pete]

As for CRM requiring praise to be heaped on people doing a job, go and reread your notes on what CRM is really about.

Don't recall where I said it needed to be heaped on anybody. Just a simple "well done" or "thanks for your efforts" is more what I was thinking of. And I never implied that CRM was all about giving praise.

The Royal Aeronautical Society defines CRM as CRM is concerned not so much with the technical knowledge and skills required to fly and operate an aircraft but rather with the cognitive and interpersonal skills needed to manage the flight within an organised aviation system. In this context, cognitive skills are defined as the mental processes used for gaining and maintaining situational awareness, for solving problems and for taking decisions. Interpersonal skills are regarded as communications and a range of behavioural activities associated with teamwork. In aviation, as in other walks of life, these skill areas often overlap with each other, and they also overlap with the technical skills required in an aviation context.
Further;
12. Communications From the foregoing discussion on cognitive skills, it is evident that effective communication between crew members is an essential prerequisite for good CRM. Research has shown that in addition to its most widely perceived function of transferring information, the communication process in an aircraft fulfils several other important functions as well. It not only helps the crew to develop a shared mental model of the problems which need to be resolved in the course of the flight, thereby enhancing situational awareness, but it also allows problem solving to be shared amongst crew members by enabling individual crew members to contribute appropriately and effectively to the decision-making process. Most importantly, it establishes the interpersonal climate between crew members and is therefore a key element in setting the tone for the management of the flight.

The words in italics are what I was getting at, so setting a half decent tone, being firm when required, but also perhaps giving words of support, encouragement or even PRAISE can go some way to making your team more effective.

I'll put my CRM books back away to collect some more dust now.:ok:

PP

[sinala1]

Very constructive post PP :ok:

[Classic]

Don't recall where I said it needed to be heaped on anybody.
good luck to those who want to heap praise or criticize based on little of substance
Maybe semantics, but I'm of the opinion that, in my airline at least,we do too much praising and not enough analysis of our shortcomings.

[Pilot Pete]

Ahh Classic

Selective out of context quoting! How about However, this is a 'rumours' forum, so good luck to those who want to heap praise or criticize based on little of substance. which more correctly puts the point I was trying to make; this is a rumour network and good luck to those who want to express their thoughts. Doesn't mean I think that CRM requires 'heaped praise'.........

Good luck with your drive to lower praising and increase facilitative criticism;)

PP

[TightSlot]

The full text of the The Royal Aeronautical Society paper on CRM is available at http://www.raes-hfg.com/reports/crm-now.htm (http://www.raes-hfg.com/reports/crm-now.htm)

As PP so eloquently said earlier - some individuals feel the need to be praised more than others - it seems a relatively harmless technique to use and one unlikely to distress either those giving or receiving unduly?