Aye oop! It's a strike lads!

[headsethair]

See BBC News here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/shropshire/4601278.stm)

[Vfrpilotpb]

Sad day when private contractors can hold Her Majestys Armed forces to ransom, did these EX RAF types not understand their salary value when they joined said private company??

Additional question(s)

Do they have written contracts with terms and conditions.

Would they do this if GB was at War!

Id love to be paid that much to fly Helis and train younger flyers, must rate as No1 easy job!!

Vfr:*

[detgnome]

VFR - when you consider the qualifications necessary for the job (ex mil CFS(H) instructor) the pay is not that much. I don't want to get into the huge debate wrt to their jobs vs serving mil vs N sea etc, but as someone who has done the job at Shawbury I can assure you that whilst it is a great deal of fun it is by no means easy! For more you may wish to look at the v long thread in the mil forum.

[helicopter-redeye]

Look on the bright side, they could have outsourced it all off-shore. There is always somebody trying to doitcheaper and at the end of the day we get what we pay for. What price defence of the realm?

[Coconutty]

Members are protesting at what they consider to be a two-tier wage system...... Balpa said current salary levels, between £29,000 and £40,000 a year, are around £7,000 less than RAF pilot trainers who are doing the same job.
Question - Do they actually do "the same job" with the same conditions of service etc, and could they be called upon to fly in a combat situation if there were another conflict somewhere ??
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/coconut.jpg
Coconutty

[Hummingfrog]

I posted this on the Mil Aircrew Forum.
What many of the critics of the possible strike action forget is that we work in a capitalist society. It is up to me as a "worker" to get as much for my services as I can to support my family. It is up to the employer to get my services for as little as pay as possible.

A skill will produce a pay rate commensurate with that skill. If there are lots with the skill then pay will be low etc. It doesn't matter that people have pensions or a stable lifestyle there is still a rate for the job. PFI contracts tend to be awarded to the lowest bidder who is the lowest because he pays the lowest wages, as fixed costs are the same for all bidders.

In the past ex-service pilots have been willing to work for less because they want stability but this is changing as they realise their true worth to the company. We have very successfully driven up our wages in the N Sea by being aware of our true value and demanding to be paid as such. There is no box of experienced pilots to replace us and I would presume this is the case at Shawbury

If you think you are worth more then stick to your guns, especially if there is nobody to replace you. Managers may think it is they who earn their company the money but we know different
HF

And Helibelly having a Military Pension has nothing to do with the going rate for the job though many companies try to use this as a way of driving down wages.

[Gerhardt]

Civilian pilots paid less than military? Yeah, I'd say they have a beef, but not with the RAF. No doubt their employer is reaping the benefits and stiffing the pilots. They're not holding the armed forces to ransom...just threatening a strike of a civilian company if they're not paid more. I see no foul here.

[L'WAAPAM]

I notice the pay dispute is on the grounds of what the RAF guys earn. I wonder what the difference in pay is with the Army SNCO QHI's? Being that the RAF guys will all be Officers.

[detgnome]

Some of the Army QHIs were earning more than me when I (Flt Lt) went through CFS(H)!

[OverTq]

We all recognise that the military pilots are paid more for the transient and sometimes dangerous work they can be called upon to do. The differential between the civvy pilots at Shawbury and equally qualified and experienced military can, however, be as much as £23k. Even allowing for the potential for the mil pilots to be whisked off to Iraq or wherever, that seems a bit of a large gap! Remember too that most of the civvies have in excess of 6000hrs and many years of military instructional experience - that level of experience should be recognised by sensible pay rises (particularly as the cost of living increases are so high at the moment - way over RPI).

[EESDL]

You're not effing serious?
Sign up for a job, knowing payscale.
Then strike because pay is different from mil colleagues............
still laughing folks, you are having a laugh........................

[OverTq]

Yeh, but - some signed up 10 years ago and things change!

[griffinblack]

I agree with EESDL.

If you don’t like the conditions under which you are employed – leave. If you have sufficient skills, you will be employed elsewhere for what you are really worth.

The fact is, that the military guys are compensated for the transient lifestyle they lead and no doubt doing secondary duties, duty officer and the like. The civvies work 8 hours and go home every day. I don’t care if they have 6000 hours, they can earn more elsewhere - go elsewhere. The military guys can also vote with their feet if they get too jaded, as many of them do.

I think this is p!ss poor behaviour, by a bunch of disgruntled old has beens.

[Hummingfrog]

EESDL and G-Black.
Your thinking on this issue probably shows why the on-shore industry lags well behind the offshore industry in terms of pay.

As I said in my previous post market forces will determine the pay rate for the Shawbury job. If the company is confident it can get replacements it will not give in to the threat of a strike. If the threat of a strike is successful in raising the pay scales then others may look at the Shawbury job and apply for vacancies thus allowing the company to give smaller increases next time.

Pay rises in any sector of the industry help everybody. Just because you love flying and it is a great job don't sell yourself short. There is not a bottomless pit of experienced pilots as the N Sea companies are finding as we expand to take up the extra work caused by the increase in oil price.

HF

[ShyTorque]

No coincidence that quite afew of the ones voicing their objection to these pilots taking action are:

A) in the military, so presumably not allowed to strike and blissfully happy with their pay for what they do (I'm sure they must be) and:

B) Therefore not yet having to make their own way in the relatively unprotected salary schemes in the civilian pilotage market.

Note that B) will apply for many military pilots one day, when the reality of that hits home, they might wish onshore salaries had gone up a bit more..... don't be so short sighted, guys! :hmm:

[griffinblack]

Hummingbird, I understand what you are saying. However, the employer doesn’t have much say in this case, even if they could attract a bunch of other pilots suitably qualified. It would take months to transition/refresh them on type, then give them a standardisation course. Meanwhile, no training is going on. It seems to me its like the stevedores and dockworkers who have the employers over the barrel with a qualification in a niche market. I just believe you should give notice, and if the employer cannot find anyone suitable or wish to retain your services, then they will offer you an upgraded contract.

It’s not that I’m saying the guys are not worth more, it’s just that I don’t agree with the way they have gone about it. I guess it really serves the military right for civilianising all there jobs – we are doing the same thing in Aus. All it means is that the mil guys get more of the rough end of the pineapple more often.

[trapezoid]

Oh...........Boo Hoo...............

:{

[What Limits]

Is there a smooth end of a pineapple ?? :uhoh: :eek:

[The Nr Fairy]

No, but I know which end I'd rather take if the choice were given . . .

[SASless]

Gosh but I do love these kinds of arguments....helicopter pilots seem to be such stupid people sometimes.

It takes a real dullard to argue against someone making more money especially knowing that upon retiring or leaving the Mob...one can find a cozy little number doing the same job he did in the Mob but for a contractor?

Why do helicopter pilots always seem to hate it when someone else is trying to improve their lot in life? Just how can it hurt anyone....for the competition to get a payrise or improvement in conditions and benefits?

I hope the guys get a healthy payrise...and do not have to take a work action. I also hope every other helicopter pilot out here benefits from the improved wages as any increase ultimately has a knock on effect for the industry as a whole.

Anything that works to raise my pay....even if indirectly and with some delay...I applaud.

In this case...power to the brothers....I am sure the Exchequer can afford to give them an increase. For sure you are not going to get a refund of your tax money if they don't.

[jayteeto]

I suppose if these lads are going to be pulled to bits by Pprune members, we should ask the anti-strikers on their opinion on the government outlawing ALL strike action by anyone, in any job. Comments.

1. The pilots have a RIGHT to strike if they want.
2. That they have pensions is totally irrelevant. See 1. above.
3. It makes no difference whatsoever that they knew the terms when they signed up. See 1. above.
4. They do not have to leave if they don't like it. Why should they?? See 1. above.

If you want to change the circumstances in this dispute, the law must change and 1. above must be made illegal. Mrs Thatcher is the woman to take that job on.......

[griffinblack]

Thank you for making me realise I am wrong. You are all correct of course. They should go on strike immediately (or as soon as legally possible), and get every single cent they can possibly come up with out of the useless government.

[EESDL]

Do not think anybody is disagreeing with the right to withold ones labour?
Totally agree with insisting that T&Cs are enforced but there are other ways in affecting the employer's attitude - I wonder how the 'sickie' rate is over at Shawbury?
No one has yet confirmed if the T&Cs have changed significantly from when an employee signed up. I would find it hard to believe that any such change would have been agreed upon and then for it to reach such an embarrassing situation.
Just weakens the whole 'contractual employment' argument.

I see FBHeliservices have an ad in Flight - not for any QHIs though, yet!!