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anybodyatall
10th Jan 2006, 17:49
Just curious... what would be a typical landing (touch down) speed, in knots, for a F-104? I'd imagine it would be quite fast and challenging.

Thanks in advance! :ok:

Ali Barber
10th Jan 2006, 19:03
I believe it was similar to the Lightning at 170. Have heard figures as high as 240 for a flapless!

charliegolf
10th Jan 2006, 19:28
My fave 104 one liner:

"It glides like bunch of keys".

Priceless.

CG

ShyTorque
10th Jan 2006, 20:19
I believe it was similar to the Lightning at 170. Have heard figures as high as 240 for a flapless!

One landed flapless at RAF Gutersloh in the early 1980s and the drogue chute failed. It went off the end of the runway and across a field all the way to the river. Took two days to recover it.

Around the same time, another one had a mid-air collision with an RAF Jaguar as it climbed out of the LFA. Speared the Jag's taileron with the pitot head and then ripped free. That 104 never flew again as it was bent downwards at the ends like a banana!

It landed safely and was reversed into the Puma and Chinook Servicing Flight hangar over lunchtime with the nose sticking out between the open doors. When OC PSF (Flt Lt Archie Fletcher), got back for his lunch the GCs said they had caught it in the hangar doors and bent it! He nearly had a seizure on the spot (mind you, he deserved it...)!

Tarnished
10th Jan 2006, 20:25
Ali is about right. 220 for a flapless and 240 for a heavy flapless.

170 for a Lightning is a bit on the high side for a normal, more in keeping with a flapless.

Both jets had silly tyres that made it all the more interesting.

Tarnished

airborne_artist
10th Jan 2006, 21:24
"It glides like bunch of keys".

Also described as "glides like a half-brick"

anybodyatall
10th Jan 2006, 22:12
220-240 for a flapless! Yikes! Talk about a white knuckle landing.

I believe some F104s had blown flaps... any idea what they'd land at... presumably quite a bit slower?

Thanks in advance....

anybodyatall
10th Jan 2006, 22:56
Just found an answer to my question... with flaps, it could touchdown at a minimum of 150 Kts... I also read that if the flaps didn't work (red flag), and the plane was heavy, pilots were advised to eject rather than attempt a landing, as landing at 240+ was a risky proposition (esp. if the runway was not the best).

My reference: http://www.airplanedriver.net/study/f104.htm

http://www.masportaviator.com/ntp_october2005.asp

I can only imagine how challenging these planes must have been to fly at their max performance thresholds...

Argonautical
11th Jan 2006, 08:34
Just looked at the
http://www.masportaviator.com/ntp_october2005.asp web site and saw this bit at the end :-
quote :-
Someone who shall remain nameless, except to say he was Darrell Greenmayer, built an F-104 in his backyard from junk pieces, temporarily “borrowed” a GE F-100 engine from an F-15 the Air Force left parked unattended on a Friday night, and set the Low-Altitude (under 50 ft.) World Speed Record of over 1,000 mph over the weekend. He did return the engine Sunday night, however.
In movies, legend and in truth, the Starfighter was quite an airplane.
end quote:
Surely can't be true can it?

ORAC
11th Jan 2006, 09:49
"The Joys of High Tech (http://www.dcr.net/~stickmak/JOHT/joht12f-104.htm): Keep in mind that the low-altitude record for flight speed was set in the Seventies with a slightly modified Starfighter. Which was owned by a civilian group, Darryl Greenameyer's Red Baron racing team. They went to the high desert and set the record at 988 mph, averaged from four passes, each at a height above ground level of less than a hundred meters. The record requires that this be done without landing or exceeding an altitude of 300 meters between passes. On one set of passes the plane averaged just over 1000 mph, but due to a fault in the timing equipment this is not official.

-----------------------------------------------------

From: David Lednicer <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: Flying F-104´s private owners
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:12:57 -0800

Darryl Greenamayer, ex SR-71 test pilot and former Reno racer (F8F Bearcat) used to have a privately owned F-104 which I think he flew out of Mohave. Unfortunately, I believe it was destroyed sometime around the early 1980's when, according to the newspaper, he had a hydraulic failure and couldn't get the landing gear down.

Regarding Darrell's 104, it was called the "Red Baron". True he couldn't get the landing gear down. But the emergency retraction wouldn't work wither. His was a -G model and modified quite a bit, just to set the civilian speed record. Interesting video of it. Not much left after he got done with it.

Darryl's RB-104 flew for the first time in the fall of 1976. It was a combination of pieces from every model of -104, so you can't really give it a designator. It was largely built at Van Nuys, but the FAA wouldn't let him fly it out, so he trucked it to Mojave and flew it there.

He first tried to break the FAI 3 km world (not civilian - WORLD) speed record that fall, but one timing camera didn't work and the record was disallowed. He came back the next fall and on October 24th he broke the old F-4A Sageburner record by going 988.26 mph. This record still stands. He next was going to break the FAI altitude record, which had just been pushed up by a MiG-25. On his last test flight, in early 1978, the right gear wouldn't lock down. Running out of fuel, with the sun going down, he was forced to punch out over the Edwards AFB bombing range. The wreckage was hauled back to the Mojave boneyard and was still there in 1987, when I stole some pieces of it. I have since heard that it has been removed, probably to a junkyard......

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to Greenamyer-I can't believe that nobody on this forum is a Checkered Flag Club member. Otherwise, you would have heard Bob Gillilland (check spelling) give ALMOST the whole story about the RF-104 speed attempt. Who is Bob Gilliland? Only Darryl's old boss and the original SR-71 test pilot. He was also listed as the "primary pilot" on the FAA paperwork and Darryl was the "backup" since Darryl was in trouble with the FAA back then. Mr. Gilliland "called in sick" so Darryl could fly, since this was entirely Darryl's program. Kelly Johnson said the airplane could never go that fast and was shocked that it did. The only thing I recall he said about the engine was they ran it hotter than normal. No mention of crashing on purpose. I heard the rumour that the engine was stolen from the Canadians but Bob had no comment. The fuselage was a tooling mockup that was never meant to fly but the only difference was that it was put together with something like pop rivets, and all they did was drill them out and replace them with the regular rivets and they had a totally stock fuselage. Don't know about the rest of the airplane........

Ron Henning

threepointonefour
11th Jan 2006, 10:54
[QUOTE=anybodyatall] Just curious... what would be a typical landing (touch down) speed, in knots, for a F-104? [QUOTE]

Don't know about knots, but I guess that it's somewhere around Mach 1.2??!!

:p

anybodyatall
11th Jan 2006, 10:54
And now for a picture of the wee beast (Darryl Greenameyer's Red Baron):

http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Stars/wRB.htm

:cool:


_

anybodyatall
11th Jan 2006, 13:45
Don't know about knots, but I guess that it's somewhere around Mach 1.2??!!
:p


Jeez, and with your username, here I was thinking you'd say the speed was related somehow to Pi ;)

ORAC
11th Jan 2006, 14:13
Naah, he´s a pilot. Haven´t you ever heard of Pi in the sky...... ;)

threepointonefour
12th Jan 2006, 17:19
Usernames can be misleading - I'm sure anybodyatall is somebody.

maddog62
10th Feb 2006, 07:13
No flap speed was 230 kts or 2.5 APC (AOA) whichever was higher, min touch down speed 190 kts.
Very difficult thing to do.......the limit for the chute was 180 kts and the brakes were real crap :yuk:.....very good chance to engage the bliss back barrier...

If for real, you had to eject all the external loads (except tip tanks) and burn the fuel down to 3,500 lbs. Tip tanks actually helped a lot in keeping induced drag under control.

Normal landing speed with full flaps was 175 kts + fuel correction ~ 5 kts for each 1,000 lbs above 1,000 lbs*....usually 185-190 kts, min touch down speed 150 kts....other difficult thing to do...

*I'm not 100% sure though....my last flight on the 104 dates back in 1995.

High key, for training, at 27,000', 260 kts, flaps TO and speedbrake out to simulate the open nozzles....gear down over the numbers or earlier if too high.

Chow,

mad

p.s. the above speeds are tipical of the S model...