Banner Towing

[Hone22]

Hi all,

Just wondering if anybody(s) out there have any experience with banner towing.

I was in Akl NZ a while back and saw both H300 and AS350 a/c towing overhead the city/suburbs. Initially blown away as I thought underslung loads a definite no.no above the unsuspecting heads of the innocent public.

Had a rig explained to me as I know a weight is required to keep the line tightish to not ruin the hang(readability) of the important message. Anyway the rig as explained had either water/sand as the ballast and if dropped (pilot finger trouble or line breakage) the rig would invert, spill the ballast and the ballast container(a bit like a bambi bucket) would behave like a parachute. Sounds good, not too sure, but would assume during design the feds would have seen the lot pickled several times to insure it worked as expected (no squashed company ground crew = a big tick).

The rig had a main line down to the ballast, plus a secondary line spliced into the main with a number of short lines linking the two in a semi parallel arangement. The secondary line and connections were to take the "curve" out of the primary so the banner leading edge started as straight as possible.

The H300 banners were a decent size and very readable from 1500'AGL(eyeballometer), the AS350 jobbies were HUGE.

Appreciate any info on design, operation and any experience with CAA, FAA, or CASA in certification of banner ops.

Cheers & fly Safe
Hone

[Grainger]

<img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

The thought of that lot wrapped around the tail rotor.

No thanks !!!

[Vfrpilotpb]

I have seen the big Royal Navy Helis do this in the past , but never any civvie one's, sound a tad riskkkeee!
My Regards <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Hone22]

Hi all,

Yeah have to agree sounds risky, but that pretty much sums up all external sling loads.

Watched the H300 setup, normal Veritcal ref style initial pickup (ground crew sorting lines, banner so clean hang) then a normal slingload transition from the hover.

Lines were approx 150-200' and ballast kept the lot hanging under the a/c. Transition to fwd flt saw the banner start to stream. Looked fairly straight forward to me and having done a decent amount of underslung loads recognize the 6 P's play an important part in reducing the gear into tail rotor scenario.

Seen banners towed in up to 20kts under the H300 can only assume the banner didn't affect controllability as the pilot carried on chugging away. Have only seen banner tows by civvie a/c as in NZ the forces aren't allowed to have any fun (hence the removal of toys + allowaces).

Any input from the WWW?

Cheers & Fly Safe
Hone

PS: The 6 P's ????


Proper,Pre-flight, Planning, Prevents, P!sspoor, Performance. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: Hone22 ]</p>

[John Eacott]

We have been flying flags for &gt;10years, although only over water. One operator has approval for an overland system in Australia.

Largest that I have flown was about 35,000 sq ft. The BK was hard pushed to manage, cruise at 25kts was OK until flying back into a 12 knot headwind!

Obviously all done on a very long line, sometimes up to 300ft to the weights. As mentioned, flags are cut on a bias so that at the spec. speed the curve on the leading edge leaves the rest of the flag 'square', and able to be recognised. The whole rig has to be flown off the ground, describing an arc around the weight until it, too, is off the groud. Similar technique for landing, the flag must also be kept out of the downwash during TO and landing.

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/gallery/aerialcrane/bk117_gp_flag.jpg

[Hone22]

Hi John,

A BK hard pressed for 25kts, now i've heard it all. I guess i'll have to reconsider my wishlist for next crissy :)

Thanx for the input John, could you pls elaborate on the overwater/land approval. My understanding is the overwater towing you carry out needs no official nod as the load/sling doesn't pass over public land/heads/etc (or am i completly wrong here?) The overland I can understand would have to go through channels (or is that enter channels never to be seen again) what co. has the Australian approval?

Hope you're having time off, feet up, hot grub and somit cool to finish up.

cheers & fly safe
Hone

[John Eacott]

Flag flying has been a (political) hot potato since a certain Labour pollie got terribly upset when a flag was towed past his BBQ at Kirribilli House, around Sydney Harbour. Upshot is that CASA decreed Sydney Harbour to be a 'populous area', thereby requiring special permission to fly a flag!

The rest of the country isn't quite so bad, except that the interpretation of flag flying became a further moot point, since any sensible operator approached it as an underslung load job (as you would....). For various reasons, a legal interpretation came out of Canberra to refute this, and it is now considered to be Banner Towing, thus requiring a specfic approval on an AOC, and an Ops Manual supplement.

As a sling load operation, it was (and is) approached along the lines that a load must not be flown over people or property such that the dropping of a load could cause injury or damage on the ground. Hence the flying of flags overwater, following a beach where maximum exposure can be gained.

A Sydney operator has spent a lot of time and effort into developing a system very similar to that first described, whereby the flag has been approved by CASA to be flown over land, and thus over built up areas. The why's and wherefore's of the operation are not something that I can comment upon as there are a number of differing views from Australian operators, none of which I wish to be aligned with. As an approved operation, it appears very successful.

A number of factors often appear to be ommitted when considering flags to be flown, the major one (IMHO) being the drag of the material. Whilst the rig may only weigh a few hundred kilos, the wind drag of a flag is well documented (reference library will help) and can reach 1,000's of kg, depending on wind strength, thus creating either a breaking strain upon the flagpole, or exceeding the hook weight of the helicopter towing the beast. Hence the 25-30kt limit for most flag flying, above which the drag exceeds the hook capability.

I have also flown multiple flags, with 3-4 flags stacked above each other. Very heavy weights required to keep the line straightish, and a rad alt would have been quite useful when GTV9 advised me that the bottom weight was actually skipping over the waves :) :) Last AirShow DownUnder I flew three flags at night, equally interesting experience <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

As for time off, w're now into day 22 of the NSW fires, and current estimate is another couple of weeks before we wrap it up. 10+ hours a day almost every day, we're beginning to wish it was over. Current drops from the BK are &gt;2500 since the start of fires, so we've put &gt;2,000,000 litres from one little BK, some of which actually hit the flames <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> The Victorian loan aircraft are now wending their way back across the border, but all pilots and operators are undoubtedly going to be very short for a month or two when crews have to catch up on duty and flight hour dispensations. The RAN also returned to their homes today, further indication that we're in the mopping up stage.

(Edited to sort out grammar & spelling. Too long a day on the fires!!!)

[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: John Eacott ]</p>

[John Eacott]

Vfrpilotpb said: "I have seen the big Royal Navy Helis do this in the past , but never any civvie one's, sound a tad riskkkeee!"

Sorry to hog the thread, but I have an air to air photo I took over Leeds in (about) 1971, where we flew a White Ensign and a Leeds flag under a couple of Wessex (Wessie??). No idea what we used as weights, or how the concept came about or was tested, but there is certainly nothing new under the sun :) :)

[Vfrpilotpb]

Good Morning John,

It was a Wessex that I observed doing this about the early 70's I wonder , it could have been you, that Chequered flag seems a litte to big to run up my house pole, it must weigh quitea bit as well as the drag factor, good picci though.
My Regards :)

[helmet fire]

The towing over populated areas is conducted using a certified and patented system designed by an Australian operator, similar to that Hone described above. I dont know who the operator is but I believe they fly BK117s on the fires. Maybe John Eacott knows?

[WHBM]

Just curious as to what it takes to be able to do this. Yesterday, Sunday 17 April, there was a huge blue commercial advertisment, about the largest airborne banner I've ever seen, being dragged across Central/East London by a red helicopter for about 2 hours continuously, from 1700 to 1900 local, at I'm estimating 2,000 feet.

Now not being a rotary man I don't know how the regs are different for them. But I imagine if I request to fly myself single-engined in Class A airspace across a fully built up area tying up Thames Radar and the London City departures for this length of time there might be a few words said.

I know if he gets an engine failure he can auto-rotate down or manage to get clear if he is twin-engined, but I presume he would have to drop the banner in such circumstances. And as I said, it was huge.

[two speed prop 3]

I saw the same thing yesterday but I thought there were two helicopters towing the same banner.

TSP

[IHF]

Hmm - think I saw the same setup over St. Albans/Watford area at the backend of last week, about 18:00 on Friday 15th IIRC.

As well as the airspace & conflict issues I was really intrigued by the structure - I couldn't work out how a single aircraft was supporting what appearerd to be a rectangular banner (rather than the more usual streamer-type arrangement)

Rgds

IHF

[PAXboy]

I did not see this but when I have seen helis towing a banner, there is a drop wire that has a weight at the base, this stabilises the wire to the vertical and allows the banner to stream. I have seen military choppers do this at displays with the flag/colours of the regiment.

[Auscan]

The banner system was developed in Australia and is currently flying all over the world. I am sure you are going to see alot more of these. Very easy to fly and extremely easy on the aircraft. I am sure airspace and confilct issues are not too great as you cannot do more than 30 - 40 kts with the banner. And being 12000 sq feet in size you are not too hard to miss. Safe as houses.

[paco]

That wasn't us, but someone borrowed our machine. The banner was 25000 sq feet - could just about manage 20 kts

Phil

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

If anyone wants more info Cabair helicopters are the ones doing the flying or at least trying too.............

[solouk]

I think it was an R44.

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

I saw a blue 206

[John Eacott]

Skylark Promotions have developed an overland system for flag flying, circumventing the sling load requirement to avoid overflying people/property. They are marketing world wide, not sure of the web site since the Skylark one is down. Patent rights on the system, which is jettisonable, but the setup has been demonstrated in a full auto to touch down with the flag attached.

Normally a JetRanger will drag up to 12-15,000 sq ft, up to 40 kias. Larger flags need larger airframes, biggest I've dragged around was just under 40,000 sq ft, with a BK117. I'd be very careful about pulling a flag larger than the helicopter's capability, apart from undue stress, the tendency to pitch toward the cyclic limit will spoil your day!

Not much weight, but lots of drag. The cut of the flag is done to allow for the correct curve in the leading edge, so that the rest of the flag flies straight and the logo is legible. Weight at the bottom of the flag to stabilise, the line can be 1-200ft top to bottom.

[Auscan]

If there are any operators interested in doing this type of flying in Europe and North America please PM me and I can put you in touch with the ops Manager. Not the most exciting flying but good hours and good rates.

[John Eacott]

Paco,

If you allowed a B206 to drag 25,000 sq ft, I'd seriously suggest having the poor thing inspected :( No wonder it only managed 20kts, the drag on the hook and airframe would have been way over limits.

[3 D]

The banner was towed by one heli G-OHMS (AS355, orange) operated (for this job) by CABAIR HELICOPTERS. The second helicopter was G-CHUM (R-44, blue and silver) just watching for a while as this was only the second time an AS-355 has been used to tow the banner it has previously been towed by a bell 206.

The banner is 25000 sq ft.

The operating speed is 30-40 kt, the banner displays best when the helicopter has a descent rate of approx 100-200 ft/min.

Quite an impressive sight, a great advertisement for both the sponsor and helicopters. I personally hope we see much more of this sort of thing .both in the U.K and worldwide.

[paco]

John - as the man says, it was a 355 - our 206s are good in a tight spot but not that good! :)

I was misinformed about the size - sorry

phil

[John Eacott]

Paco,

I guess it was 12,500 (125,000 sounds way too grand!), which would be manageable in a 206, and easy for the 355. The cut and manufature of the flag makes an enormous difference to the drag, and the way it flies: one local maker creates a product that needs 2/3rds the power that a competitor's flag does, same size and helicopter!


BK117 and a 38,000 sq ft flag. Absolute PITA to fly, 35kias and the helicopter wanted to oscillate around the forward cargo hook points:

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/pprune/BK117%20%26%20GP%20flag.jpg



Two of the JetRanger with a c10,000 sq ft flag with the overland rig:

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/pprune/JGE%20flag%203.jpg

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/pprune/JGE%20flag%204.jpg

[Banjo]

Chinese whispers I love it.

Our company did the job on behalf of Cabair with my boss flying it. The aircraft was in fact a 355 (G-OHMS) borrowed kindly from Paco.

The air speed limit was 20 Knots and in fact registered 0 for the entire flight. The flag was 25,000 sq ft though plans are in hand for a 100,000 sq ft flag.

The flag is weighted with 100 Kg of fine sand. In the event of a problem the flag is dropped and during this procedure the sand is released from its container and blows away on the wind causing no problems. The flag as stated streams and comes down as described.

It had also been flown twice for the FA cup matches in Cardiff on the Saturday and that Sunday morning.

Yes it is obviously fully approved by the CAA and all permissions granted. After all would be silly to think no one would notice us, that being the point of the advert. Oh and for anyone interested it is simply mounted by a conventional hook system as used on the 355 for normal underslung work.

Cheers
Banjo (and thanks again for the aircraft Paco, I'll get those video clips for you this week)

[treadigraph]

Ahhhh! Saw it in the distance from outside East Croydon Station and wondered what the hell it was - then went into the Porter and Sorter (pub) and, for reasons I cannot divulge, promptly forgot about it! Mystery solved...

Thanks folks.

[helicopter-redeye]

So what did the flag thing say (after all that)??

h-r

[cortilla]

ohhh Banjo, if they were videos of the banner towing, you don't fancy putting them on't net for us mere mortals do you?? Please, pretty please.

[Banjo]

Sorry guys but we did not bother to video it, sure someone will have though.

[paco]

It said - If you ae reading this you are too close! :)

Phil

[WestWind1950]

Any of you have experience with towing banners with a helicopter? what did you have to do to get the rating for it? I know it's not a JAR-FCL rating and would be a national one, so any information about how the various countries apply it would be greatly appreciated.

I know it's being done in some places. I tried to google it but didn't find any decent info (in fact none!), so I turn to you guys.

Thanks!

Westy

[spinwing]

I do believe John Eacott is "The Man" to talk too ....

Cheers :p

[Oogle]

In Australia it is a function of "Specialised Operations" that must be included as Part D of a company's operations manual.

The pilot requires a sling endorsement on their endorsement to be able to carry out the procedure.

UK - sorry. A bit unsure of what the CAA requires. No doubt it is completely over the top like all their other requirements.

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

Speak to Rod wood who is cheif pilot for cabair helicopters who do all the helicopter flag flying in the UK.

[WestWind1950]

I do believe John Eacott is "The Man" to talk too ....

Speak to Rod wood who is cheif pilot for cabair helicopters who do all the helicopter flag flying in the UK.

thanks guys, but do you have any contact address or email? (or pprune nick :} ?)

I myself have a tow rating for fixed-wing (not for banner, just for getting those gliders up there...) but would the same required training be suffice for a heli? is it tricky with heli's? does the CAA or other authority stamp it in your licence?

question over question... sorry... :ugh:

Westy

P.S. no, I don't want to do it, but I know someone who does....

[Helinut]

The email address for Cabair Heles is below. It will probably go through to their ops, but I am sure they will pass it on. Incidentally, there are 1 or 2 photos of their banner towing on their website too

[email protected]

[blade771]

Rod Wood, Marion or Ian Burningham are the people to speak to, have worked with them before on the underslugng banner stuff. I think it was developed in Australia (very clever bit of kit).

0208 953 4411

[spag]

You will find John Eacott here under the username "John Eacott"

[Cross-eyed]

It seems WestWind is looking for a bit of a discussion on heli banner tow flying. I too would be interested in hearing from those whom have experience, if you wouldn't mind continuing the thread outside PMs.

What equipment is preferred, is it particularly difficult, what are some of the pitfalls, how does the market compare to fixed-wing banner tow, etc.?

[WestWind1950]

thanks Cross-eyed, that's exactly what I want... information! I did follow the link mentioned above and the pictures are quite impressive, but I want to know what is involved and how is it put on the licence!

I have asked the "authorities-that-be" here in Germany, i.e. the LBA, but they are squirming around about it (I think they realised that something was forgotten during the transition to JAR-FCL oooops) so they are no help at all! Yet there are heli ops that are doing it here I'm sure, I just haven't found yet who and where. So, I would like to know what the "experts" at pprune feel about it and their experiences with it!

OK guys.. give a gal some support here ;)

Westy

[blade771]

My understanding is a little less than that of Rod or the guys at Cabair however it, I believe, is a little like this...

The cable which supports the flag is hooked to the hooking system on an AS355 (in the UK). The aircraft has pilot and crewmand on board, the crewman I believe is for manual release of the load and to guide the pilot when landing and taking off.

The flag is weighted by sand and in an emergency upon auto or manual release of the flag the weight is dispersed into the air and the flag floats (possibly with a form of parachute) to the ground.

It was quite a lengthy and costly exercise to get the approvals from the UK CAA, however as most can see from the photos etc they are quite impressive when airborne.

[AlanM]

Cabair over London.....

http://www.pbase.com/kbmphotography/image/46433943/large.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/kbmphotography/image/46433944/large.jpg

[HOVERJOCKI]

Just a warning to those of you intending to tow banners.

I have towed banners a couple of times this year for about 40 hours, and I had a bad experience recently at Long Beach, Ca towing a banner.

Firstly, there are 2 types of system out there that I have come across, the first one involves a large sand bag at the bottom of the line with the banner just above it and the second involves the banner behind the helo on about a 400' to 600' line depending on the size of the banner you are towing. The second one is the one I have experience in.

I was on my last tow of the weekend and on pick up the banner didn't open properly; it folded and didn't open and was doing a slow roll. After trying to get it to open by increasing speed slightly I opted to return to the airport to drop it off and start again. At this point there was nothing wrong with the load; it's basically a sling load weighing about 200lbs so it should theoretically stay below me at the speed of 30kts. I was using a mirror to see what the banner was doing at the time but once the rope was along the aircraft belly I had to be careful how I flew the helo as I couldn't see the banner anymore. On my final approach to drop off the banner at 300', the load stopped rolling and turned in to a foil and flew like a para-glider (eyewitness accounts as I can't see the banner).
As the banner flew up it took out my tail rotor and pulled it from the aircraft ( it was found about 150' from the crash site ). I can't remember the last 15 seconds of the flight but I was conscious throughout the whole ordeal and survived the crash.
The reason I didn't punch off the banner in the beginning was that I was working between 3 active runways at the time, the load wasn't a problem, it was just a regular sling load and there were no emergency procedures for a banner that doesn't open... guess it never happened before.
So if you do fly the system where you have to do a slight forward movement on take off, PUNCH OFF THE BANNER IF IT DOESN'T OPEN UP WITH IN THE FIRST 200' AND TELL THE TOWER.
If I had known then what I know now that is what I would have done regardless of what the banner company would have said.
This isn't to scare people off of doing a job, but I won't be flying banners again, not worth it. When we flew them we had one person onboard using a mirror and from the state of the aircraft I’m glad I was the only one.
I have pictures of the crash but not sure if I can post them on here...first time post.
Be safe and be careful.

[WestWind1950]

thanks for all the input! It's a lot more interesting then I thought!

I know how dangerous banner towing can be with fixed wing.... I saw the remains of a plane after a missed pick-up... plane crashed, burned, was not a pretty sight.

So far it seems that the requirements before being able to do the tows with heli's is very lenient. And since normally EVERYTHING is regulated, I really wonder that this isn't... or it seems it isn't.

Westy

[belly tank]

This one is from a tow over sydney, it was approved as an overland tow as we or the crewman can release the sand from the bag prior to it being jettisoned from AC in the event of an emergency. the length of this flag from AC to sand bag is 200' with about 100kg of sand bag. doing max 40kts

http://www.aerologistics.com.au/Gallery/Over%20Sydney.jpg

[Tony Chambers]

So is Cabair the only operator cleared to tow banners in the UK?

[blade771]

Tony,

I am not entirely sure of the legislation, Cabair obtained the original permission from the CAA in order to carry out the flag flying - this I know was quite a lengthy process. However I am relatively sure that once the system has been proven and the permission has been granted, the CAA, I am fairly sure, would not reject a request from another operator in order to maintain a fair commerical environment. As long as the system being operated was identical and the op's manual / FSI covering the banner towing contained similar height restrictions etc to that which has already been approved. They may of course request to see proof that the other operator is able to maintain the safety margins required by demonstration similar to Cabair.

It might also be that the system is under license and Cabair have the contract to carry out UK ops.

Hope this helps.

[rattle]

Somebody, presumably Cabair were on H4 at lunchtime today. Very gusty, and the banner was "downwind" so couldn't work out what it said anyway! How windy can it get before you cannot fly? If you have a 40kt VNe, and a 39kt tailwind, does it get dangerous?

[JimL]

How could the tailwind have an influence except on the speed that the banner passes.

[cwatters]

From the newsgroups..

"According to a caller to BBC Cambridge, the helicopter & banner have parted company in Bluntisham. The banner is apparently in someone's garden after getting snagged on a tree."

Here is the "before" photo..

(Credit to Stuart Moore in Cambridge)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/ben.harris/Temporary/helicopter.jpg

Anyone got the "after"?

[Seloco]

I had thought that it was because of potential accidents such as this that such banner towing was prohibited over built-up areas.

And yet, just week ago, a helicopter was towing just such a giant banner over central London. The results of such a large, albeit soft object falling suddenly on a busy street of traffic would be unfortunate, to say the least. It appears however that someone somewhere has decided that the risk is worth taking; maybe the Cambridge incident will show that the chances of it happening are greater than they thought.

[Sunfish]

It would be more than unfortunate, these things have a very large weight on the free end to keep them straight.

[Pom Pax]

The results of such a large, albeit soft object falling
How big is the counter weight? From that photo it looks about the size of the tail rotor.
I was also surprised by during a telecast of the Oval test to see a banner being towed down Balham way. I thought that was a piece of air you people used.

[ShyTorque]

It it very obvious that the incident was caused by what must have been a very close encounter with that "mother ship" in the photo.

I also spotted those "chemtrails" following behind.

It's a government plot, I tell you........ :8

[Woolf]

I agree with the first comment, a falling banner could be a hazard to traffic. The weight however is designed to empty itself (sand) on the way down so no problem there (if it works).

[Flying Lawyer]

Seloco

Your concern for people in London is understandable.
Believe it or not, they allow cars and even buses and trucks to travel at 30 mph (and even 40 mph in some places) , only feet from pedestrians!
It would be very unfortunate if something went wrong.

[LUXSTAR]

STORY WAS A HOAX....THEY LAND THE BANNER IN AREA CHARLIE SAFELY IN CONNINGTON AIRFIELD....BANNER FOR ANTI PIRACY....FLOWN BY EXPERIENCE CAPTAINS..BY AEXPERIENCE CHARTER PROVIDER....THATS WHAT I HEAR..AND THEY BEIND HIRED IN JAPAN....APPARENTLY...BIG COMPANIES ARE COMING IN...SO WHY COMPLAIN JOBS.....IT WAS AGREAT JOB BY THE PILOTS ON THE SQURILL THIS MORNING.....

[wg13_dummy]

STORY WAS A HOAX....THEY LAND THE BANNER IN AREA CHARLIE SAFELY IN CONNINGTON AIRFIELD....BANNER FOR ANTI PIRACY....FLOWN BY EXPERIENCE CAPTAINS..BY AEXPERIENCE CHARTER PROVIDER....THATS WHAT I HEAR..AND THEY BEIND HIRED IN JAPAN....APPARENTLY...BIG COMPANIES ARE COMING IN...SO WHY COMPLAIN JOBS.....IT WAS AGREAT JOB BY THE PILOTS ON THE SQURILL THIS MORNING.....

I hope you are not their proof reader.

[fernytickles]

I think thats a great way to spell squrill...... :ok:

[Farmer 1]

Is there any other way of spelling squrill?

[helicopter-redeye]

Thank 'eavans he did'nt try to spell it the French way!

LayCurRay

h-r:)

[Head Turner]

A wunderfil bit of humore witch had me smiling from ere 2 ere I fli a squrill an I'll rite it that way 4 evr. Witch reminds of a silly joke. What is the longest word in the English language?
Answer - smiles, as there is a mile between the first and the last letter :O

[FanPilot]

...

and the shortest one ... oxo

There is nowt on either end and it is crossed out in the middle.




i'll get me coat.

FP

[Heliport]

I can't find any news reports of this 'incident'? :confused:

Did it actually happen?
Was it some non-event exaggerated by some busybody "caller to BBC Cambridge"?

It's just the sort of thing which gets the nannies of this world calling for even tighter restrictions than those we have to live with already. :rolleyes:

[Scrawny]

I can confirm that the DVD Piracy banner that flew in Cambridge yesterday flew without incident. The call to the BBC was a hoax.
The banner took off from Cambridge airport and landed at Connington.
If you require any more info please contact the Heli Banners UK OPs - [email protected]

[Seloco]

Flying Lawyer:

Believe it or not, my previous post was intended to be serious, but I'm not sure that the same applies to your response - a case of "lingua in bucca" perhaps? Both traffic and pedestrians are controlled and constrained in order to prevent accidents for which the likelihood is defined by normal statistical means. My point about banner flying over built-up areas was that it should be subject to the same controls and that the referenced accident - if indeed it was thus and not a hoax - might be relevant to the statistical analysis involved therein. I'm sorry if this was not clear.

[21st Century]

Personally, I'd rather take my chances standing underneath the possible jettisonable sandbag and banner that pass overhead occasionally rather than standing next to ‘the cars and even buses and trucks that travel at 30 mph and even 40 mph in some places, only feet from pedestrians!' With regard to the regulatory bodies that preside over both -- I hope they do so equally.

[Flying Lawyer]

Seloco

I realised, after overcoming my initial incredulity, that your post was intended to be serious. My response, albeit expressed in a tongue in cheek manner (as you correctly suggest), was also intended to make a serious point.

"The results of such a large, albeit soft object falling suddenly on a busy street of traffic would be unfortunate, to say the least."
I agree they could be, but so could be the results of one of the many large flags flying from official buildings detaching and landing across a windscreen of a moving vehicle. Or a vehicle going out of control as a result of a driver suffering a heart attack. The chances of such events happening are relatively slim, but the consequences could easily be terrible.
The greater the likelihood of some event happening and the greater the likelihood of serious injury or death resulting if it does, the greater the effort which should be made to minimise the risk so far as reasonably possible, but only within reason.
eg Should the CAA prohibit single-crew aircraft from flying over built up areas in case the pilot has a heart attack?
No, in my view.

Banner flying is subject to control by the CAA. All my dealings with the Authority over the years makes me confident that a thorough risk assesment must have been made by competent personnel before permission was granted.

If the point in your earlier post was simply that (had this incident actually occurred) it should be recorded for the purpose of statistical analysis then I agree with you. I'm sorry if I misunderstood the thrust of your earlier post but I formed the impression you disapproved of, or were worried about, banner towing being permitted over London and other built up areas.

Notwithstanding that "traffic and pedestrians are controlled and constrained", I consider the likelihood of a stray banner causing injury to people on the ground pales into insignificance compared with the likelihood of them being injured on the road or pavement by negligence or medical incapacity (their own or someone else's) or mechanical failure.

The risk of being injured (directly or indirectly) by a falling banner doesn't concern me in the slightest, particularly when considered in the context of all the other misfortunes which are far more likely to befall me by reason of living in London.


(I freely admit I dislike the increasing spread of 'nanny state' legislation designed to protect us from any sort of risk.)

[Heliport]

Pictures by AlanM


http://www.pbase.com/kbmphotography/image/46433943.jpg


http://www.pbase.com/kbmphotography/image/46433944.jpg

[Tony Chambers]

There was some threads regarding helicopter banner towing, i have just read that the amended ano article 65 does not allow article to be suspended at any height over a congested area, does this now mean that banner towing by a helicopter is not allowed?
Tony

[eurorobell]

Tony, I am not aware of ano article 65 could you please supply further information relating to this, which country are you operating in?
I am quite current in banner towing operations.:cool:

[Tony Chambers]

Operating in the UK
the air navigation order 2005 amdt 1/2005
part 5 operation of a/c
art 65
(5) A helicopter shall not fly at any height over a congested area of a city, town or settlement at any time when any article, person or animal is suspended from the helicopter.

Does banner flying come under this rule?
The safety systems, routes and the fact that it is an aerial advertising operation may exempt it. I know that cabair operate over some congested areas so there has to be some exemption.

TAZ

[eurorobell]

Not sure of UK regulations, however banner towing op's over bulit up or public areas in Australia is strictly prohibited unless the operator is using a sand bag release system that only a handfull of operators have approvals for.
The sand is released from the bag prior to the rest of the unit being released from the aircraft.
Sorry I cant answer your question. Best of Luck!

[Tony Chambers]

Thanks euro i believe it is the same system being used over here in the UK. The CAA have approved an operator here in the UK aslong as the same safety systems are being used and proved then i can't see any major issues.

Thanks for your reply.

Tony

[Capt Hollywood]

Eurorobell,

I have heard of the sand bag system, you say they release the sand first and then release the rest of the unit. What about the 'D' shackles, swivel joint and long line? Surely they can't be letting those fall away from the aircraft.

CH :cool:

[eurorobell]

Cant really go into detail on the workings of the system ,as I am unsure of the devise, never utilised this setup, maybe someone else can throw some light on the operation of this system.

[HeliEng]

How would you go about finding out who was approved to helicopter banner tow in the UK???

[faultygoods]

helieng, try
www.cabairhelicopters.com/heli_banners.htm
ok?

[headsethair]

The UK version is an adaptation of the Australian for which Cabair have done the paperwork and approvals. It has flown over Cardiff, Manchester and London (at least) with full approval hanging off an AS355.

[RINKER]

PDG doing it out of cumbernauld with Twin squirrel.

[SHortshaft]

I would suggest the answer is yes and no.

Operators are prohibited unless they get a specific approval (exemption) from the authority. No doubt for the appropriate fee.

It enables the authority to:
1. Earn more money
2. Show that they are monitoring safety matters that effect the public closely, and
3. Argue that they are complying with international standards.

Well, anyway, that is how it works in my neck of the woods!

[verticalhold]

OK from the horses mouth. I am posting this with the permission of my employers as I am probably the most current pilot on this operation in the UK. The banner is not towed , it is underslung. Military helicopters do not tow vehicles or artillery pieces, relief helicopters do not tow emergency supplies and we don't tow banners. In effect our operation is no different from any of these other uses-we pick an item up, fly a set course with it and unload it at the end. We get paid for moving it in the same way that any chartered helicopter would be paid for moving a third party's item from A to B even if A and B are the same place.

Currently all banner operations in the UK are carried out under the Cabair AOC and banner lifting exemption. If the aircraft is not a Cabair machine e.g the Cumbernauld job there is a requirement for a Cabair pilot to be on board.

Its been fun watching all the speculation!:ok:

[Bertie Thruster]

Though military suspend flags off their winch cables.

[AlanM]

Fair enough vertical hold - and nice of you to give us some facts....but you don't see too many artillery pieces being USL over central London!! :)

Wonder why.....??!!! (Yes I know they are heavier and can more of a thump, but a flag landing on the A406 would be interesting!)

[verticalhold]

AlanM;

The secret is in the CAA exemption and the trials we went through to gain that exemption.

VH

[AlanM]

Fair enough!

As we get to talk to you on 125.62 - is there anything you can let us know about working you? i.e. What speeds can you do? How tight can you turn? What is the heighest/lowest you can fly? I am not sure there is anything on the NSF form to say we can't let something fly below you.... What is the total height of the line and heli?

Cheers

[headsethair]

:bored: ....... Just hanging around waiting for the sandbag to drop........followed by a large ad for Nationwide which would probably black out most of a dual carriageway width :ok:

[Auscan]

Ah there it is. I was wondering when Mr Sinic would show up. There is always someone isnt there. The What if factor.... What if the Sand bag comes off. What if the hook lets go. What if you have an engine failure. Well to the unknowing these are all valid questions, but to someone who knows and flys the system all these questions have been answered. Thats how Cabair got the approval in the first place. Just like every other operator in the world that flys the banners. Yes nothing is infalable but I can assure you that every possible safety precaution has been taken when flying this system. So rest easy Headsethair. Unless of coarse you drive on the dual carriageway where the catastophic failure is going to happen???????

[headsethair]

Lighten up "Auscan". Are all the humour trees round your way bereft of fruit ?

Sorry - I'll do that in the spelling your computer generates:

Our awl thee huma triz rownd yer weigh berepht of froot ?

[bwm85]

Did a little bit of banner towing during the Indy 300 on the Gold Coast. Typically you tow the banner at around 30-40kts. Anything below that and the banner doesn't fly properly, anything above that and you start to get tears on the trailing edge and the flag will look more like a triangle than a square/rectangle. Typically from the hook to the weights it is around 160ft and depending on conditions you can hook some fairly tight turns but normally you keep them nice and sedate.

[SkyCom]

Well I have sat and read the utterly ill informed comments about the banner towing and the systems used for some time now. clearly the majority of people commenting have no idea about banners and operations of them... probably not even pilots and if so should know better... Why do I know. I invented the largest globally system.
No banners in houses. no illegal operations and over 2500 hours of towing to date.

If you want facts on it then ask the people in the know and leave the gossiping to old women in a Bingo hall. I would change gossip to defamation but you hide behind your alias.

Tell you what... here is a wild idea try actually flying and then you will have less time to talk $%*@ about flying.

To those who really flight banners ...blue skies and safe flying.

[Capt Hollywood]

Well Skycom,

Here's a radical idea, how about passing on some of your knowledge to those of us who are interested rather than berating fellow professionals for simply trying to find out the right way to do something!

You never know we might be potential customers!

Cheers,

CH:cool:

[HOVERJOCKI]

Hi Skycom.
I am curious to know what system you use, either the sand bag weighted version or the tow version ( no weight ).
I would like to know your opinion on both systems. I have flown a few hours here in the states with one system and would like to get some different opinions.
Thanks alot.

[SkyCom]

Hello hover jocki. I need to clarity something, firstly we only use the bag system . there has already been a crash in the US using the tow idea that no pilot in his right mind would fly. the bag system is whwre the load should be...under you not being dragged behin with a cable a metre from your tail rotor. the only reason this is being allows in the US it History of towing in that way behind planes, they got around the law by impementing iot to helicopters. ther will be more accidents due to the insane adaptation.


Secondly we have spent 6 years and over 900K to get this system up and running so please understand that we protect this due to a huge investment of time and money. something the Catp Hollywood does not grasp as he just wants us to give him all the information on a plate. not too bright that guy!

So to that we shall not be handing out how we do it in anyway...would you!!

Thanks and safe flying

[HOVERJOCKI]

I know your system and the company i work for did a run once with it, looked good system.
I understand your reluctancy to talk much about it and and appreciate what you have said.
All the best mate and fly safe with those things.

[Heliport]

It's good to have someone like Skycom or his sort post once in a while.

Useful reminders of how lucky we are in Rotorheads that most people are generally courtous, and that so many people from all over the world are happy to share their expertise and experience.

Heliport

[skitzs]

Hey SKY... 2500 hrs towing banners? HAHAHAHAHAH mate get a real job, boy your a legend. Not exactly rocket science mate.
Dont like what you read ? pull your head in.
Few blokes pick up a 300' strop and a flag for the first time and do all right, i recon they have the right to post what they want whether you like it or not, you have the right and our permission not to comment.
Like Captain.H says, pass it on and maybe you can feel good about helping a few blokes keep safe and have some one they can look up to.
I think your are a fairly smart bloke, you probibly saw some one else flying around with some sand bags and thought hmmm ill patent that idea. :rolleyes:

[Capt Hollywood]

Skycom,

I suggested you pass on some of your knowledge, not divulge the inner workings of your system. No need to resort to personal insults, have I upset you at some stage in the past?

I am simply curious as to how the system works. The version I heard involves the sand being released prior to the flag being dropped in the event of an emergency. I found it hard to believe CASA would permit a flag and the associated shackles, swivel etc, to fall away from the machine over a populated area, fair question I thought! If you have approval to do just that then so be it, as I said I am curious if that is the idea behind the system.

I am currently looking for an operator to fly a banner in Sydney for approximately 30hrs a month. Know anyone who can help me with this!!!

Cheers,

CH :cool:

[Heliport]

Merged with previous threads about banner towing.

Heliport

[Jerry Seinfeld]

I have personally flown this system for many,many hours, it is simple and safe to use, in some of the pics displayed here you can see the banner is being flown too fast as it is bowing, thus making it hard to read. Total weight for a 12500 sqf would be about 450lbs this includes the 150lbs of sand that hangs at the bottom of the system, and no the longline shackles and such do not come crashing to the earth, they float and yes I did say float down quite nicely,and without giving away any secrets, what causes anything heavier than air to float to the ground when departing a helicopter or plane? it rhymes with Parachute! of course the system has already done it's job at this point and the sand has been dispersed like Grandma's ashes when said chute deploys guiding the remainder of the system to earth. It is also very helpful if the pilot has some vertical reference experience, although not necessary it does make the job allot easier. Also Capt Hollywood if you did have a need for a banner tow aircraft in sydney I think judging by Skycom's name he would know about it actually, he would be the one doing the hiring, and unfortunately for you I wouldn't expect that call to the base anytime soon

[cl12pv2s]

Just some more photos.

http://heliads.com.hk/images/stories/_p2g1854.jpg
http://heliads.com.hk/images/stories/GP2-03.jpg
http://www.heliads.com.hk/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=41

[Heliport]

Jerry Seinfeld

Thanks for your informative post. :ok:



BTW, Capt Hollywood didn't say he was looking for a job but, on the basis of your last sentence, it sounds as if Skycom is as unpleasant in real life as he has been on this thread. See his arrogant and offensive post 21st January 2006 01:11.

Capt H made a reasonable suggestion in his first post, and asked a reasonable question in his second - freely admitting he didn't know the answer and wanted to expand his knowledge.
He's been courteous throughout - in stark contrast to Skycom. :rolleyes:


SOP for this forum: Help others when you know the answer and ask a question if you don't.
There'll always be exceptions of course, but the fact they are exceptions illustrates the value and strength of this worldwide pool of expertise and experience.


Heliport

[BigMike]

Having talked to Capt. Hollywood yesterday, his company (not based in Sydney) IS about to ask for quotes for 30 hours of Banner towing in Sydney. Nice little contract for someone.

[bellsux]

So Skycom is that your own company or do you just work there? Good way to shoot yourself in the foot if you are just a driver bagging out potential new clients..

[Heliport]

It's his company - but they've got a monopoly which could explain a lot. :rolleyes:

H.

[nuthin]

If you are still interested in someone to fly your banner, I will throw in my hat.
The company I fly for in NZ flys a banner over Auckland using H300s , 500s and occasionally a B206.

I have about 50 hours doing this. If this sounds like you email me on

[email protected]

[tedsta]

There is not a monopoly in Sydney it is a Duopoly. Skycom has the banners and the overland system, and PRW Helicopters (Formerley Mciver Aviation) has the approval in their ops manual to fly the system.

Sydney Airport Corporation Limited have decided to build a shopping centre or something on the site where anyone could lift a banner from and track out over the water and remain over water at all times. Although there are other suitable spots on the airport, SACL believe the practice to be "unsafe", and don't want to have it happening off their property.

I have heard this is because of an "incident" involving one of PRW's pilots. I'm not sure what the incdent was, but i can confirm it had nothing to do with time one of his pilots overtorqued the brand new Bell 427 when the banner he was lifting got caught on a fence.... You heard right, a Bell 427 to lift a banner!! You can't get away with on overtorque in these new machines, wonder how many times it happened on the jetranger??

Skycom does his banner towing out of Bankstown, and therefore has to use the over land system. The cost for the Jetranger and their "intelectuall property", runs at around $3000.00 per hour!!

The guy that flys his banners at 30 - 40kts.... unless they were actually designed and built by skycom (he knows what he is doing) you will rip your banners apart. I suggest 15 - 25kts.

I have limted acess to a suitable spot for picking up banners on the Sydney Coast, but with quite a few restrictions (times and days).

Capt Holywood

If you seriously want to do 30hrs of banner towing in Sydney please PM me.

Tedsta

[Capt Hollywood]

Check your PMs Tedsta!

[SkyCom]

Seems I put some noses out of place over my comments... been away from this forum and back to see the comments from others. can pick the guys that know what they are talking about and those that are would be,s.

Last posting from me as the concept of this forum is good to learn from but just to much d%$# heads bingo hall gossiping.

safe flying to all

[SHortshaft]

Sean, it is a pity that “you spat the dummy”…when you are being nice you have a great deal to offer this forum.

I believe that the photos posted by cl12pv2s of banner towing in Hong Kong are not of the Skycom system but are those of a competitor.

Contrary to some views expressed on this forum the flying is challenging. Trying to maintain level flight at 22 – 28 kts IAS (perhaps faster depending on the system used) when operating for as much as 3 hours at a time, in or around an urban environment with a 200 ft long line load combination, and not screw up or die from boredom is rather challenging. The airspeed indicators are not that accurate at such low speeds and a small speed change can result in a large power change and not always in the direction you would think.

There are three or four specialist companies in the world producing the banners, and providing technical services, and as long as they have oversight of the operation then I reckon it can be conducted in a safe and efficient manner. What concerns me is when all the ‘wannabes’ start giving it a try!

[SoundByDesign]

ohhh Banjo, if they were videos of the banner towing, you don't fancy putting them on't net for us mere mortals do you?? Please, pretty please.


Plenty of videos on our website for you, you'll need Quicktime though:

http://www.HeliAdventures.com

G..

[SoundByDesign]

Skycom,
I suggested you pass on some of your knowledge, not divulge the inner workings of your system. No need to resort to personal insults, have I upset you at some stage in the past?
I am simply curious as to how the system works. The version I heard involves the sand being released prior to the flag being dropped in the event of an emergency. I found it hard to believe CASA would permit a flag and the associated shackles, swivel etc, to fall away from the machine over a populated area, fair question I thought! If you have approval to do just that then so be it, as I said I am curious if that is the idea behind the system.
I am currently looking for an operator to fly a banner in Sydney for approximately 30hrs a month. Know anyone who can help me with this!!!
Cheers,
CH :cool:

Give us a call, I have a good friend down under who may be able to help you out.

Contact details @: http://www.HeliAds.co.uk

G..

[funfinn2000]

Hello Boys n Girls, I have recently seen a 206 towing a huge banner. The thing was on a long line with a weight at the end of it. It was flying around Chicago on game day advertising some kind of yellow pages.

Has anybody got any info on where one may aquire such equipment or even know who the Chicago operator was.

Fun

[dunnarunna]

Think its designed by an Australian company. Cabair Helicopters use it a lot here in the UK - they may have contact info. Cabair's number is +44 208 953 4411. :)

[bwm85]

The equipment you need is very much dictated by your circumstances. If you require to tow the banner over land and over populous areas you do require a sand bag system (in Aus anyway). This system, in the even of something going wrong, allows you to release the sand (aka the weight) and drop the banner without the risk of it punching a hole through someones roof. If you intend to tow the banner over water, for example down a popular stretch of beach, you can simply tow the banner with fixed weights. In the event something goes wrong, there is nothing but Davey Jones Locker below you allowing you to pickle the load without risking life or property.

[Flying Lawyer]

funfinn2000

There's a lot of information about banner towing on this thread - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=205578

[bigbanners]

If you want to any information about helicopters towing banners, then Skybanners are the world experts - and the inventors of the heli banner concept, back in the arly 90's, in New Zealand.
Skybanners operate around the world; the banner design is light years ahead of anything the Australians have.

[Sir HC]

Great plug and a great first post. May you suggest why it is so far advanced from the other systems? Ohhh, because the Kiwis invented it. Gotcha!

[funfinn2000]

I have seen a banner up close at a NFL game in Chicago, he was in a 306 and I had a 44 taking pictures and it had a lot of wow factor. I have a picture somewhere.

Thanks

[rudestuff]

whats a 306? is that a Bell product or a Peugeot?

[John Eacott]

Mr Walker's website:

We invented the concept of helicopters towing banners about 10 years ago;

I must find out why I have banner towing entries in my logbook from 1989 in Melbourne, and as for this photo that I took in about 1972, I guess that doesn't count :p

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/pprune/Wessex%20flag%20fly%201972.jpg

[bigbanners]

I'm not to sure if that '72 tow does count - it's not really a banner, is it? More a small rag.
Interesting anyhow... Should I have said that I invented the banner concept with the first safety system approved for over city flights...got the FAA in Los Angeles to first approve it in 1994.
A lot of prgress since then - and my inference about the Aussie designs referes to the big slow sheets of cloth I've noted they fly to often - there's a right way and wrong way to make them, and fly them.
We fly at 50knots, are capable of tight manoeuvres...and we still fly with trained flight-rigger assisting the pilot.
The safety systems has been refined and has been 100% reliable over all the years.

[eagle 86]

My God there's a lot of wankers on this site - and the biggest of the lot are the f'ing kiwi's - as I said on another thread - the petty jealousies that make up the Australiasian helo scene absolutely leave me gobsmacked - well done John E you are streets ahead of the rest of the pups!!
GAGS
E86

[canterbury crusader]

Is this a bad time to talk about Pavlova then?

[Helinut]

Didn't Pavlov do an experiment with dogs where he could get them to react ahead of themselves because of a learned behaviour...?

[canterbury crusader]

I was talking about the dessert ???

[Blind]

We have been flying flags for &gt;10years, although only over water. One operator has approval for an overland system in Australia.

Largest that I have flown was about 35,000 sq ft.

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/gallery/aerialcrane/bk117_gp_flag.jpg

John, I'd really love to know what 35,000 sq ft is, can you give me a clue in standard british tabloid measurements of football pitches, nelson columns or double decker busses? Cheers!!

PS Pavlov played with dogs, Pavlova a scrummy pud named after a ballerina

[John Eacott]

John, I'd really love to know what 35,000 sq ft is, can you give me a clue in standard british tabloid measurements of football pitches, nelson columns or double decker busses? Cheers!!

From memory, the flag was about 265ft x 132ft, on a 150 ft line from the BK117. Nelson stands 169ft 5 3/4in above Trafalgar Square: at least, the top of his hat does :)



Brian Walker:

I'm not to sure if that '72 tow does count - it's not really a banner, is it? More a small rag

I'm sure that you were only joking, but there may be a few who have served under the White Ensign who may not find that too funny a remark. Only two posts, and you seem to have made a name for yourself already :rolleyes:

[canterbury crusader]

so about one third of a football field

[Heliport]

Threads merged.

[OldRookie]

Does anyone know of a U.K. company that engages in this activity ?

[VeeAny]

Not quite banner towing like you would with an aeroplane but Cabair were doing it earlier this year towing a giant flag around, heard the callsign cabair Flag over London quite a bit.

V

[paco]

Polo (in Bristol) do it as well. 01275 877000 if memory serves

Phil

[Brilliant Stuff]

01934 877000

[paco]

Of course it is - thanks!

Phil

[OldRookie]

Thanks for the info. I will check it out

[RINKER]

I've seen PDG out of Cumbernauld in Scotland towing banners with a Squirrel
R

[OldRookie]

I found some references on a Kiwi site to banner towing operations in a Hughes/ schweizer 300/269. Does anybody know any more or actualy do this ?

[verticalhold]

Sorry guys, read the rest of the thread. The ONLY company allowed to do this task in the UK are Cabair at Elstree. The others sub-contract to Cabair when required and there is always a Cabair pilot on board. The job is always done under the Cabair AOC. Last year I flew a heck of a lot of it. My back is only just starting to lose the twin squirrel seat shape:{

[rotorspin]

and it looks like you guys are doing a good job...
Typed in banner towing in "you tube" and look what popped out!
Elstree Banner Lifting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZLEGZEw2DY)

[bwm85]

Just a couple of photos laying the banner back down after Saturdays banner tow over the Indy Weekend. Was my first tow as PIC and I had a ball.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/bwalker_munro92/Indy012.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/bwalker_munro92/Indy014.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/bwalker_munro92/Indy015.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/bwalker_munro92/Indy019.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/bwalker_munro92/Indy020.jpg

[Spunk]

Hi guys,

can anybody enlighten me on how much stress (due to drag) a banner of let's say 1.500 sqm would put on the airframe? Would it actually be comparible to external load work (the heavy stuff I'm talking)?
Thanks for the replies.

[Scrawny]

Who was that flying the Australian flag / banner on Australia day? Are they the only people that are allowed to do this or do civvy companies do this aswell? I presume they designed this type of flying?

[Planestory]

Anyone know which company was banner towing with a 172 from 8/83 and then in a Super Cub and an Agcat up until 86 out of Eastleigh? I am researching John Fairey's log books and that is where this crops up.

Cheers

[nomorehelosforme]

Amongst all the fixed wing banner advertisements going on ahead of the Super Bowl this weekend today was the first time I have seen one slung under a helicopter. The banner looked huge in comparison compared with the fixed wing banners. Any benefits by using rotors over fixed wing? Any other pros, cons or risk? Have attached a couple of (poor pictures I took)

Also think I saw a Blackhawk fly over this afternoon in Downtown Atlanta?
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/611e3005_ae1c_41f0_b2f8_a90ddb704b88_fb77111cb256cb86b61c999 19013ea84047e364c.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/dc404213_5d26_4711_94fc_46586f87c75e_1daaf698062e4f1eceaf676 3d753816b570a3519.jpeg

I believe banners may have been discussed on here before but couldn’t find a specific thread.

[Ascend Charlie]

Benefits include a longer time for the viewers to read it, bigger banners because of slow travel (but slow travel caused by being big, lots of drag)

Cons are: more noise, more intrusive, longer for the punters to complain, stress on the airframe by having such a draggy heavy thing pulling the nose down, limited distance to cover as only going 30-40kt.

[Gordy]

We do it all the time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_Ip4S10rSc

[Gordy]

Even at night----we lifted this and put it back on a barge on the Hudson river:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nDf0jtF06w